10 Jan
2015
10 Jan
'15
9:51 p.m.
I talked to the owner maybe 6 months ago. It was a bizarre and difficult
interaction. He refused to let me see the units, and insisted I give him an
offer first. He would not even give me the list of the items he had. We went
into a circular discussion: that I couldn't give him an offer if I didn't
know nor see what the items were, to which he replied that if I were a
serious buyer I would make him an offer beforehand, therefore I was not
serious and he would not show me the items nor give me the list. So that was
not very helpful. Then later on he sent me 3 or 4 close up pictures of only
the name badges of some of the machines (one badge from HP, maybe two of
IBM). I got the distinct impression that either something was fishy or that
the guy had unreasonable expectations. Or maybe both. I just gave up. Looks
like you are faring much better than me, so that's positive. I am interested
in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you don't
want them.
Marc
On 1/9/15 6:38 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he told
us that what he
had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to
the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running
environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect,
Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a
serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were
crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible
to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was
no way to know how complete or what features either system had.
Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in
poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking
price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad
we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle
Well that's a disappointment.
I'm still going to take a look at it
tomorrow...but I'm going to be prepared to walk away from it.
TTFN - Guy
10 Jan
10 Jan
10:41 p.m.
Yes, I tried to talk to him at about the same time and got nowhere. This
time I made an actual
offer but I needed to see it and might up it depending upon the
condition. As you can see from
my earlier posts today that because of the way it was put into storage
and the way it was stored
it's basically all just scrap now which is too bad.
TTFN - Guy
On 1/10/15 6:51 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
I talked to the owner maybe 6 months ago. It was a
bizarre and difficult
interaction. He refused to let me see the units, and insisted I give him an
offer first. He would not even give me the list of the items he had. We went
into a circular discussion: that I couldn't give him an offer if I didn't
know nor see what the items were, to which he replied that if I were a
serious buyer I would make him an offer beforehand, therefore I was not
serious and he would not show me the items nor give me the list. So that was
not very helpful. Then later on he sent me 3 or 4 close up pictures of only
the name badges of some of the machines (one badge from HP, maybe two of
IBM). I got the distinct impression that either something was fishy or that
the guy had unreasonable expectations. Or maybe both. I just gave up. Looks
like you are faring much better than me, so that's positive. I am interested
in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you don't
want them.
Marc
On 1/9/15 6:38 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he
told us that what he
had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to
the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running
environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect,
Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a
serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were
crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible
to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was
no way to know how complete or what features either system had.
Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in
poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking
price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad
we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle
Well that's a disappointment.
I'm still going to take a look at it
tomorrow...but I'm going to be prepared to walk away from it.
TTFN - Guy
11 Jan
11 Jan
4:50 a.m.
On 1/10/2015 7:41 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
Yes, I tried to talk to him at about the same time and
got nowhere.
This time I made an actual
offer but I needed to see it and might up it depending upon the
condition. As you can see from
my earlier posts today that because of the way it was put into storage
and the way it was stored
it's basically all just scrap now which is too bad.
TTFN - Guy
I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. The path
the systems took apparently was from a company where he worked, then
idle. The company donated them to a local college where they were used
in some capacity for a while then stored. The storage was not under his
control, and though he'd had direct interaction when it was originally
in production, he did admit that he thought some damage had occurred
when the college had stored the units.
I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very
high expectations of what he had stored, and has invested a lot in it,
but doesn't get what is really required to make these things go. When
you deal with people heavily invested in something they are not
realistic, and will want more than an item should be priced at.
He may or may not be at the end of his capability to store it or
whatever where it is, he says he needs to sell it as he has imminent
plans to move to NM, so that deadline is self imposed, and should not
legitimately impact the negotiation. Just he should be and seems to be
more open to negotiating now.
I'm sad to hear it was damaged as badly as it was, had high hopes the
4341 had at least stayed closed and somewhat safe. I think the console
controller is in the end chassis. The main swing outs have the main
processor. Don't try to swing them one at a time, the thing will tip.
Jim
On 1/10/15 6:51 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote:
I talked to the owner maybe 6 months ago. It was
a bizarre and difficult
interaction. He refused to let me see the units, and insisted I give
him an
offer first. He would not even give me the list of the items he had.
We went
into a circular discussion: that I couldn't give him an offer if I
didn't
know nor see what the items were, to which he replied that if I were a
serious buyer I would make him an offer beforehand, therefore I was not
serious and he would not show me the items nor give me the list. So
that was
not very helpful. Then later on he sent me 3 or 4 close up pictures
of only
the name badges of some of the machines (one badge from HP, maybe two of
IBM). I got the distinct impression that either something was fishy
or that
the guy had unreasonable expectations. Or maybe both. I just gave up.
Looks
like you are faring much better than me, so that's positive. I am
interested
in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you
don't
want them.
Marc
On 1/9/15 6:38 PM, Lyle Bickley wrote:
When Bob and I initially talked to the owner, he
told us that what he
had was a major find for a collector. He spoke in glowing terms as to
the condition of the 4341 and the HP mini (de-installed from a running
environment and then stored for many years). So as you would expect,
Bob and I were very anxious to see both systems. What we found was a
serious disappointment. As Bob said, the 4341 and the HP mini were
crammed into a storage unit with lots of other junk. It was impossible
to see/determine what system components were actually there. There was
no way to know how complete or what features either system had.
Repeating what Bob said, everything was water damaged, rusty and in
poor condition - and I do mean everything. We told him that his asking
price was too high - and that the condition of the systems was so bad
we wouldn't even make him an offer. Lyle
Well that's a disappointment.
I'm still going to take a look at it
tomorrow...but I'm going to be prepared to walk away from it.
TTFN - Guy
10:15 a.m.
On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote:
I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. ...
... [snip]
I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very
high expectations of what he had stored...
No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is
have a bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing
the seller that he has special items and that there are special groups
of people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a
high value are confirmed.
It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk
only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat.
The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised.
Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are
calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you
do is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who might
end up buying the items.
Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need
without your interference.
For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me
when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here.
Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the
competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more.
Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the
rebroadcasting. But I say, let them broadcast themselves.
- J.
10:58 a.m.
On 1/11/15 7:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much
wider
audience, the competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more.
It sure sucks to be you.
11:01 a.m.
On 1/11/15 7:58 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/11/15 7:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
And dealing with people like you is why I got out of hardware collecting.
Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much
wider
audience, the competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more.
It sure sucks to be you.
11:34 a.m.
Sheesh! Not so collegial! My take has always been, if you find a hidden
gem, great, but if it gets blown up and the item's got buyers swarming and
the price is shooting up, c'est la vie... Nobody owes us cheap additions to
all our personal collections (though of course it's nice when it happens
anyway). I do miss the "old days" when so much of this stuff was just
generally available for the taking, nobody would have ever thought to fight
over it!
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote:
I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. ...
... [snip]
I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very high
expectations of what he had stored...
No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is
have a
bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing the
seller that he has special items and that there are special groups of
people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a high
value are confirmed.
It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk
only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat.
The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised.
Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are
calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you do
is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who might end up
buying the items.
Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need
without your interference.
For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me
when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. Now,
my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the
competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more.
Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the rebroadcasting.
But I say, let them broadcast themselves.
- J.
12:15 p.m.
Seems to me as several have viewed and walked away the price should be coming down not
going up. I also bet the important things such as the MAPS and Hardware manuals are
missing, He might have tape drives but does he have any tapes? So whilst I haven't
seen it I can't comment on how salvageable this 4341 is, but even if it had been
carefully removed, re-installing after 10 years in good storage would be a challenge.
I had a 4361 installed in a lecture theatre in a local University. It was shipped by IBM
from its previous location so it was well packed etc. It was a nightmare getting enough
power to run the thing. We needed around 60amps 240v three phase. I just wish I had kept
the Physical Planning Manuals.
Given the condition reports I have seen I imagine it will go for scrap, I don't think
there is much gold in a 4341 but there is a lot of steel...
.. Reminds me of the case of the Blackpool Vulcan bomber sold on e-bay for ?15,000.
Estimated cost of move ?20K + ?1k per week storage costs.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/lancashire/4181657.stm
it was eventually sold for scrap for ?4000. I don't know if the vendor was ever paid
his money. I think probably not...
.. the buyer now apparently has a Harrier Jump Jet instead....
Dave Wade
G4UGM
(When this happened ?1 was about $1.10)
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Sean
Caron
Sent: 11 January 2015 16:35
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000
Sheesh! Not so collegial! My take has always been, if you find a hidden gem,
great, but if it gets blown up and the item's got buyers swarming and the
price is shooting up, c'est la vie... Nobody owes us cheap additions to all our
personal collections (though of course it's nice when it happens anyway). I do
miss the "old days" when so much of this stuff was just generally available
for
the taking, nobody would have ever thought to fight over it!
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com>
wrote:
On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote:
squat.
>
> The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised.
>
> Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are
> calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you
> do is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who
> might end up buying the items.
>
> Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need
> without your interference.
>
> For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me
> when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here.
> Now, my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the
> competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more.
>
> Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the rebroadcasting.
> But I say, let them broadcast themselves.
>
> - J.
>
I talked to him at length and got a little more on the story. ...
... [snip]
I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very
high expectations of what he had stored...
No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is
have a
bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing
the seller that he has special items and that there are special groups of
people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a high
value are confirmed.
It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has
junk only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly 
12:29 p.m.
Seems to me as several have viewed and walked away the
price should be coming down not going up. I also bet the important things such as the MAPS
and Hardware manuals are missing, He might have tape drives but does he have any tapes?
Or the IMPL floppies for the 4341 or the 3830, for that matter.
Originals are *required* or there will be no fun, as I think they are
serial numbered to the specific machines. I do not know about the
4341, but don't think that you can just rewrite the IMPL to a new disk
for the 3830, as it is one of those first generation 8 inch types.
--
Will
12:49 p.m.
On 1/11/15 9:29 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
Yea, that was one of the things that I specifically asked about and all
I got was a blank stare.
The reality is that if someone *really* needed some of the parts it
might be worth it depending
upon how much you really had to spend.
What killed it for me was the fact that everything was buried and it
would have taken at least
3-4 hours of digging (with a number of people...I wasn't going to be
able to move some of
the piled up junk by myself) just to figure out what was actually
there. I might have felt
differently if the 4341, etc were in better condition (from at least
what I could see). But given
the condition and not knowing what else was there it was really a
pig-in-a-poke.
TTFN - Guy
Seems to me as
several have viewed and walked away the price should be coming down not going up. I also
bet the important things such as the MAPS and Hardware manuals are missing, He might have
tape drives but does he have any tapes?
Or the IMPL floppies for the 4341 or the
3830, for that matter.
Originals are *required* or there will be no fun, as I think they are
serial numbered to the specific machines. I do not know about the
4341, but don't think that you can just rewrite the IMPL to a new disk
for the 3830, as it is one of those first generation 8 inch types.
3:18 p.m.
My point is only that, why unnecessarily
make it harder and/or more costly for
the eventual real buyer? That's not
collegiality either. Sellers with no
knowledge of what they're selling are
using "apparent interest" as their
primary calculus on their pricing, so
excessive interest that isn't even real,
just inflates their expectations to
beyond reasonable.
I'm not talking about ripping anyone
off. I'm talking about keeping things
REASONABLE and win-win fair.
Auctions are not collegial -- they're
competitive, and since when is
competition a negative? But one form of
collegiality would be the non-serious
people not making things harder for the
serious people.
- J.
On 1/11/2015 11:34 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
Sheesh! Not so collegial! My take has always been, if
you find a hidden
gem, great, but if it gets blown up and the item's got buyers swarming and
the price is shooting up, c'est la vie... Nobody owes us cheap additions to
all our personal collections (though of course it's nice when it happens
anyway). I do miss the "old days" when so much of this stuff was just
generally available for the taking, nobody would have ever thought to fight
over it!
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:15 AM, js at cimmeri.com<js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 1/11/2015 4:50 AM, jim s wrote:
I talked to him at length and got a little more
on the story. ...
... [snip]
I'm willing to say that my impression of the guy is that he had very high
expectations of what he had stored...
No wonder. As a buyer, the worst thing you can do with any seller is
have a
bunch of people calling up, expressing interest, and informing the
seller that he has special items and that there are special groups of
people out there who are interested. Now the seller's beliefs in a high
value are confirmed.
It's far better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk
only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat.
The more who call, the more the sellers hopes are raised.
Why people who have no actual capability of purchasing these items are
calling the seller up and taking up their time, is beyond me. All you do
is raise the difficulty of negotiations for the actual guy who might end up
buying the items.
Any actual buyer is fully capable of getting all the answers they need
without your interference.
For the similar reasons, as a frequent buyer, it also highly annoys me
when systems on eBay or Craiglist are found and rebroadcasted here. Now,
my chance find has been made aware to a much wider audience, the
competition shoots way up, and I have to pay more.
Of course, there's sellers here too who benefit from the rebroadcasting.
But I say, let them broadcast themselves.
- J.
12:52 p.m.
Just the nature of the beast? There are only so many Paul Allens. I mean,
this is just fun for me, I'm not planning on it paying for my retirement in
40 years, LOL. It seems like most of the guys with the big money to burn
are into cars or something ;) I look at it more, we're all doing a service
to posterity by warehousing this stuff... it's a cost center, not a profit
center. Just picking this stuff up and storing it in their own facilities,
the buyer is incurring their own significant costs in storage space,
packing, moving and trucking, etc.
Does this mean a lot of good equipment that someone could have appreciated
and enjoyed gets cut up for scrap? Definitely. But I don't think collectors
are, on average, deliberately being cheap. Just, disposable income isn't
what it once was for a lot of people; people make an inquiry or an offer...
can't blame someone for asking. If we saw the reversal of 30 years worth of
stagnant wages, I think we'd see prices shoot up on all kinds of stuff,
vintage IT gear included.
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 12:01 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:
It's far
better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk
only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly
squat.
The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier squat.
--
Will
1:22 p.m.
On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
we're all doing a service
to posterity by warehousing this stuff
No, you're not. You're being chumps.
Museums aren't going to want it, and your family will take it
to the dump when you croak.
Think about it the next time you calculate how many thousands
of dollars it has cost you to store your collections.
1:44 p.m.
I don't know; I think it remains to be seen, whether or not there will be
an enduring market, or even an interest, for historic computer gear in the
long-term... I think the last 20 years have shown more than anything that
there is an enduring interest for at least some small subset of the
population...
But I'm on your side, really; my implication was that an active collector
is often providing a real service, something of value, just by offering to
come and pick this stuff up, especially when it is heavy and oversize.
Definite costs there. As well as in storing it (although I'd be paying my
mortgage anyway) not to mention if you want to run it, repair it, keep
spares, documentation.
So quite the opposite; I think the seller is delusional if they expect to
get anything much out of their pile of scrap, cash-wise. I have no illusion
that my own collection is going to be worth much in terms of hard cash to
anyone at all, but I'm not yet willing to rule out that I might be able to
find someone interested to take it for free and continue to give it a good
home, when I'm on my way out. I'll have fun with it in the mean-time. We
all gotta have hobbies.
Enduring interest remains in all kinds of old electronics... Radios,
musical instruments, hi-fi equipment, heck, the eBay price on many HP RPN
calculators exceeds that of the devices new, 20, 30 years down the line
(discounting inflation, of course). Why not old computers?
Sure, not every single old box of electronics will be of enduring interest,
but I think a few will. And let me highlight my deliberate choice of the
word interest, over a term such as cash value!
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
we're all doing a service
to posterity by warehousing this stuff
No, you're not. You're being chumps.
Museums aren't going to want it, and your family will take it
to the dump when you croak.
Think about it the next time you calculate how many thousands
of dollars it has cost you to store your collections.
2:34 p.m.
we're all
doing a service
to posterity by warehousing this stuff
No, you're not. You're being chumps.
Museums aren't going to want it, and your family will take it
And I specifically do not want any part of my collection even to
be offered to a museum
to the dump when you croak.
That is what a will is for (and in my case, not having any close
family it's pretty much essential). You name somebody (having
given them warning of what to expect) who will know what to
do with the machines, etc, and will appreciate them.
And yes, I have made a will.
-tony
3:24 p.m.
On 1/11/2015 1:22 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
Sad but true words, most likely...
Unless these machines somehow come into
a market as do vintage automobiles.
Now, question to ponder, was the market
for automobiles *created* and
manipulated into existence by market
makers and public relationists?
Because old cars are a real damn bitch
to take care of, restore, keep going,
house, etc. Computers are MUCH easier
and less costly.. and in some ways, in
every way bit as fun (to me, anyway -- I
have both vintage cars and vintage
computers).
If the auto market was guiled into
existence, then someone, sometime, will
create the buzz for such a thing in
vintage computers as well.. because
wherever there is money to be made,
someone will eventually make it.
- J.
we're all doing a service
to posterity by warehousing this stuff
No, you're not. You're being chumps.
Museums aren't going to want it, and
your family will take it
to the dump when you croak.
Think about it the next time you
calculate how many thousands
of dollars it has cost you to store
your collections.
3:50 p.m.
Actually.... I (as well as others here) have been known to take a system that was a pretty
destroyed pile of rust/mouseHabitat and get it fairly displayable/running again. It takes
a HUGE amount of work and time, but it can often be done.
From the pictures, I can tell both systems are probably
in fairly far gone condition and would be at the top end of the "barely possible to
restore" ranking. These systems have a smaller market for purchase because not
"a majority" of the collectors around could easily restore them and get them
running. Major Tough Project.
That being said... I've always wanted a 43xx and an HP3K both, but I simply don't
have the bandwidth to commit to that extensive of a restoration at this point. Hopefully
someone else on the list does, or can at least house them till such a time as someone
does. They are both sought-after systems, particularly by me.
On the whole price debate.... given the condition these systems are in - they are fairly
worthless. Scrap value at best. In moderate or fully restored condition, they are worth a
lot. But the current owner needs to understand that someone is going to spend 10 times his
asking price getting them restored and as such, he can't ask more than scrap for
them.
J
4:09 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: 11 January 2015 20:50
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
Subject: RE: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000
On the whole price debate.... given the condition these systems are in - they
are fairly worthless. Scrap value at best. In moderate or fully restored
condition, they are worth a lot. But the current owner needs to understand
that someone is going to spend 10 times his asking price getting them
restored and as such, he can't ask more than scrap for them.
J
You see the same issues with collectible cars and motor cycles. Generally whilst it might
be fun, and even mentally rewarding, to restore such an item, it will almost always be
financially unrewarding. The cost of materials alone out weights the any increase in
value. As for this pile of junk, I wonder if some crowd funding to restore and run this
might be successful.
9:01 p.m.
Now, question to ponder, was the market for
automobiles *created* and manipulated into existence by market makers and public
relationists?
Automobiles were used by individuals for four generations, the models are built to appeal
to different personalities and social strata.
A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed their own cars, so
they had some knowledge of how they worked.
Consumer computers are commodities. You throw them out, and since their performance
improves orders of magnitude over time most people
could care less about trying to use an old one.
A person in 2015 can pretty easily pick up how to drive a car from their
great-grandfather. They might even remember the car their great-grandfather
owned. If you could find one, only an expert who knew where to look would have the
faintest idea how to use a computer from the 1950's or would
want to try. Thanks to the net, in a few years your latest wizbang handheld device will be
as useless as an analog cell phone from the 90's. Even
if you wanted you use it, you wouldn't be able to because the network infrastructure
that makes it function will be gone.
Seen many working Web TV's or Danger Hiptops lately?
So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people collecting cars and
computers and there will never be a popular movement to preserve
them other that as a platform for playing games.
9:29 p.m.
> Now, question to ponder, was the market for
automobiles *created* and
> manipulated into existence by market makers and public relationists?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
Automobiles were used by individuals for four
generations, the models
are built to appeal to different personalities and social strata.
A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed
their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
A "significant
number" of people prior to PC fixed and programmed their
own computers, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
Consumer computers are commodities. You throw them
out, and since their
performance improves orders of magnitude over time most people could
care less about trying to use an old one.
Most current cars are commodities. (Kia, anyone?, YUGO???) You throw them
out, and since their gas mileage and reliability improves magnitudes over
time, most people could care less about trying to use an old one.
A person in 2015 can pretty easily pick up how to
drive a car from their
great-grandfather. They might even remember the car their
great-grandfather owned. If you could find one, only an expert who knew
where to look would have the faintest idea how to use a computer from
the 1950's or would want to try.
Besides me and you, . . .
What percentage of current "drivers" know how to adjust ignition timing?
What percentage of current "drivers" know how to use a manual choke?
What percentage of current "drivers" know how to crank start?
(and if they tried, they would probably recreate the apocryphal legend
about WHY Kettering developed the starter motor)
if you wanted you use it, you wouldn't be able to
because the network
infrastructure that makes it function will be gone.
leaded gas, and some of the
other early fules) are kinda hard to come by.
So, no, there is very little in common with the base
of people
collecting cars and computers and there will never be a popular movement
to preserve them other that as a platform for playing games.
Most obsolete cars and computers end up kept for nostalgia, or as
ornaments and toys.
Few, other than ARDs, use the really old ones for their daily driving.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:13 p.m.
heh, 1969 Volkswagen Bus for my daily. (I know, I know, it's not really
"antique".)
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 9:29 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
> Now,
question to ponder, was the market for automobiles *created* and
> manipulated into existence by market makers and public relationists?
On Sun, 11 Jan 2015, Al Kossow wrote:
Automobiles were used by individuals for four
generations, the models
are built to appeal to different personalities and social strata.
A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed
their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
A "significant
number" of people prior to PC fixed and programmed their
own computers, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
Consumer computers are commodities. You throw
them out, and since their
performance improves orders of magnitude over time most people could
care less about trying to use an old one.
Most current cars are commodities. (Kia, anyone?, YUGO???) You throw them
out, and since their gas mileage and reliability improves magnitudes over
time, most people could care less about trying to use an old one.
A person in 2015 can pretty easily pick up how to
drive a car from their
great-grandfather. They might even remember the car their
great-grandfather owned. If you could find one, only an expert who knew
where to look would have the faintest idea how to use a computer from
the 1950's or would want to try.
Besides me and you, . . .
What percentage of current "drivers" know how to adjust ignition timing?
What percentage of current "drivers" know how to use a manual choke?
What percentage of current "drivers" know how to crank start?
(and if they tried, they would probably recreate the apocryphal legend
about WHY Kettering developed the starter motor)
if you wanted you use it, you wouldn't be
able to because the network
infrastructure that makes it function will be gone.
leaded gas, and some of the
other early fules) are kinda hard to come by.
So, no, there is very little in common with the
base of people
collecting cars and computers and there will never be a popular movement
to preserve them other that as a platform for playing games.
Most obsolete cars and computers end up kept for nostalgia, or as
ornaments and toys.
Few, other than ARDs, use the really old ones for their daily driving.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12 Jan
12 Jan
11:45 a.m.
New subject: Value of classics: (was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000)
All,
On Jan 11, 2015, at 8:29 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
Most obsolete cars and computers end up kept for
nostalgia, or as
ornaments and toys.
Few, other than ARDs, use the really old ones for their daily driving.
Drove my ?77 Datsun B210 to work today, and drove the ?68 Plymouth Sport Suburban (like a
Fury III wagon) to pick up my daughter at orchestra practice yesterday. Those are actually
my daily drivers.
But, they are not orders of magnitude slower than the other cars on the road; they blend
in nicely with traffic, have very similar brake and turn signals, etc.; that may be a
differentiating factor from my ?classic? computing hardware, as Fred correctly points out.
They are indeed less reliable, but not by any means orders of magnitude less reliable.
On the subject of broadcasting offers; from a point of view of any individual collector,
price is driven up and availability down, and I understand this is seen as a bad thing.
From the point of view of the aritfact itself, and of maintaining it into the future,
getting it into the hands of the person willing to pay the most for it seems to me to be a
good thing. Any item for which someone has paid $1000 is less likely to be thrown out by
estate managers than the same item if it cost only $100 or ?free for pickup?. So although
I?ve personally missed out on some really nice systems that I was interested in because
they were more widely publicized, I?m willing to grin and bear the loss, thinking that the
systems found a home that?ll take even better care of them than I would have.
7:29 a.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 06:01:49PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people
collecting cars and computers and there will never be a
popular movement to preserve them other that as a platform for
playing games.
Not popular or widespread perhaps, but globally there are quite
a number of people who wouldn't mind sinking their teeth in
restoring a rare mainframe.
What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't
easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and
even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet fewer who
document their knowledge, tools and tricks.
From time to time I see young people (18 or so) enter
the
classic compuer hobby) but they have an uphill battle getting
into the restoration part.
There seems to be lots and lots of books for restoring old cars
and houses. Where are those books for computers?
Tony, when will you write one?
/P
8 a.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Pontus Pihlgren
Verzonden: maandag 12 januari 2015 13:29
Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 06:01:49PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote:
of
So, no, there is very little in common with the base of people
collecting cars and computers and there will never be a popular
movement to preserve them other that as a platform for playing games.
Not popular or widespread perhaps, but globally there are quite a number people who wouldn't mind sinking their teeth in
restoring a rare
mainframe.
What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't easy to
learn.
There are only a few with Tonys skill level and even
fewer who cares about
old
electronics and yet fewer who document their
knowledge, tools and tricks.
From time to time I see young people (18 or so) enter the classic compuer
hobby) but they have an uphill battle getting into the restoration part.
There seems to be lots and lots of books for restoring old cars and
houses.
Where are those books for computers?
Tony, when will you write one?
/P
He did wrote a lot of articles about fixing old HP equipment.
But you have to be a member of the HPCC to read them.
So don't hesitate and become a member..
-Rik
2:33 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
He did wrote a lot of articles about fixing old HP equipment.
But you have to be a member of the HPCC to read them.
So don't hesitate and become a member..
Actually, the series on the HP98x0 calculators and that on the HP9866A printer
are available (reformatted, and in one 'manual') from the Australian HP museum
site. Anyone can read them.
Not that I want to put people off joining HPCC of course :-)
-tony
11:36 a.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
What I find bothersome is that the techniques for
doing so isn't
easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and
even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet fewer who
document their knowledge, tools and tricks.
Isn't that the point of this list and the Vintage Computer Forum?
--
Will
2:53 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
On 01/12/2015 05:36 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
Certainly, and the mailing list and it's archives is invaluable. But as
an introduction to the subject? not so much.
It would be nice to hand someone a book which at least cursory explains
capacitor reforming, how to read and write ROM's, how to repair corroded
PCB's or what to do if the copper has lifted from the board.
/P
What I find
bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't
easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and
even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet fewer who
document their knowledge, tools and tricks.
Isn't that the point of this list
and the Vintage Computer Forum?
2:59 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
On 1/12/2015 2:53 PM, Pontus wrote:
On 01/12/2015 05:36 PM, William
Donzelli wrote:
Certainly, and the mailing list and
it's archives is invaluable. But as an
introduction to the subject? not so much.
It would be nice to hand someone a
book which at least cursory explains
capacitor reforming, how to read and
write ROM's, how to repair corroded
PCB's or what to do if the copper has
lifted from the board.
It'd be a massive undertaking, simply
because there's so many different
streams of arcane knowledge that one
brings to bear on such tasks.
Everyone will be a bit different, but
for myself, I'm bringing a lifetime of
experience of working with my hands to
bear on a restoration type project...
whether it's something my dad showed me
when I was 12, to something I figured
out later, to something I read about on
the internet.
Being a "restorer" is actually being a
person who has mastered a craft, and who
is never done learning that craft.
- J.
What I
find bothersome is that the
techniques for doing so isn't
easy to learn. There are only a few
with Tonys skill level and
even fewer who cares about old
electronics and yet fewer who
document their knowledge, tools and
tricks.
Isn't that the point of this list and
the Vintage Computer Forum?
2:53 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
Not popular or widespread perhaps, but globally there
are quite
a number of people who wouldn't mind sinking their teeth in
restoring a rare mainframe.
Yes. me for one (I've never worked on a mainframe...)
What I find bothersome is that the techniques for doing so isn't
easy to learn. There are only a few with Tonys skill level and
Actually, a lot of things are not easy to learn. I fact I struggle to think
of anything worthwhile that is. That said, nobody taught me how to
understand and repair computers. I just started reading schematics
and they started to make sense. What you need is a good understanding
of digital electronics (and there are very few good books on this,
amazingly) a good understanding of analogue electronics (ditto), and
really, then just to spend many hours fiddling with classic computers,
looking at things with the 'scope and logic analyser, and thinking about
what you are doing.
even fewer who cares about old electronics and yet
fewer who
document their knowledge, tools and tricks.
I do try.
From time to time I see young people (18 or so) enter the
classic compuer hobby) but they have an uphill battle getting
into the restoration part.
Hang on.. When I started, there was no internet. There were no
mailing lists like this one. There were no data sheets and service
manuals available to download. I would have a schematic if I was
lucky (otherwise I would have to trace it out), I would hopefully
be able to get data sheets or at least pinouts of the main ICs.
To be fair it is a _lot_ easier now.
The main skill I see lacking now is the ability to reason logically.
This has nothing to do with classic computer restoration per se,
but it is obviously essential here. But I see it, in all areas, all the
time.
There seems to be lots and lots of books for restoring old cars
and houses. Where are those books for computers?
Tony, when will you write one?
Hang on. I post here. I write repair articles for HPCC. Every year I give
a talk at HPCC on the internals of some old HP device (last time it
was the HP11305 disk controller for the HP9830, something that it is
not easy to find technical info on [1]). What more do you want?
(Said with tongue firmly in cheek).
[1] If you tell me you can download the schematics, well, where did they
come from...
More seriously, I have written repair information for specific machines,
but it tends to assume you already know how a computer works, and need
to know how _that_ computer works. In other words I'll describe the microcode
sequencer of the 98x0 processor, but will assume you know what microcode
is and how it is used in a processor control system
I have often thought about writing a more general 'book' on classic computer
repair but it either ends up far too trivial (explaining gates and flipflops and
linear PSUs,) or very machine-specific. The problem is that in the time period
we are talking about there was almost nothing that every machine did the same
way. Even something as simple as a keyboard button could be a mechanical
contact, or a change in capacitance (then think of both Keytronics and the IBM
PC keyboard), or inductive coupling (GE/ICL Termiprinter) or inductive damping
(HP9810/HP9820) or a magnetically saturated core (HP9845). Or even mechanical
encoding to ASCII operating switch contacts (Teletype Model 33). To cover every
way that, say, a processor was designed would take many books, and even then
there would be something I'd missed out.
-tony
3:21 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
On 01/12/2015 08:53 PM, tony duell wrote:
Actually, a lot of things are not easy to learn. I
fact I struggle to think
of anything worthwhile that is.
Well, perhaps my choice of word wasn't the best. I certainly didn't mean
to say that the subject matter should be made "easy". Computer
restoration is challenging and difficult, I acknowledge that. What I
wanted was to make the subject more approachable.
Hang on. I post here. I write repair articles for
HPCC. Every year I give
a talk at HPCC on the internals of some old HP device (last time it
was the HP11305 disk controller for the HP9830, something that it is
not easy to find technical info on [1]). What more do you want?
(Said with tongue firmly in cheek).
:) And I try to read (and understand) most of what you write, even if
it's not directly related to what I collect. What is this HPCC that you
I have often thought about writing a more general
'book' on classic computer
repair but it either ends up far too trivial (explaining gates and flipflops and
linear PSUs,) or very machine-specific.
When I think more about it. I think I want a book that guides me through
restoration of computers from digital between 1970 and 1980, since that
is my main interest. I realize that a book about restoring micros from
1980 and onwards would be a very different book.
Still, I don't think either of those books exist.
Regards,
Pontus.
4:03 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus
Sent: 12 January 2015 20:21
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and
HP3000]
On 01/12/2015 08:53 PM, tony duell wrote:
to
say
Actually, a lot of things are not easy to learn.
I fact I struggle to
think of anything worthwhile that is.
Well, perhaps my choice of word wasn't the best. I certainly didn't mean that the subject matter should be made
"easy". Computer restoration is
challenging and difficult, I acknowledge that. What I wanted was to make
the
subject more approachable.
not
Hang on. I post here. I write repair articles for
HPCC. Every year I
give a talk at HPCC on the internals of some old HP device (last time
it was the HP11305 disk controller for the HP9830, something that it
is not easy to find technical info on [1]). What more do you want?
(Said with tongue firmly in cheek).
:) And I try to read (and understand) most of what you write, even if it's directly related to what I collect. What is this HPCC
that you
my
I have often thought about writing a more general
'book' on classic
computer repair but it either ends up far too trivial (explaining
gates and flipflops and linear PSUs,) or very machine-specific.
When I think more about it. I think I want a book that guides me through
restoration of computers from digital between 1970 and 1980, since that is main interest. I realize that a book about restoring
micros from
1980 and onwards would be a very different book.
Still, I don't think either of those books exist.
Regards,
Pontus.
I know we are mostly old curmudgeons around here (including me!), and I very
much like my printed books, but perhaps technology could come to the rescue
here.
It wouldn't be hard to create a wiki where this kind of information is
collected, rather than distributed all over a mailing list. And, with many
hands, the work is much lighter. Perhaps a bit idealistic, but the idea
*could* fly if there was enough critical mass. I can imagine sections on
general techniques and then on particular brands and machines, and there
wouldn't need to be a restriction on subject matter in terms of periods in
history or other dimensions, just whatever people are able to contribute. I
can also imagine edit wars if there is disagreement about something (eg
capacitor reforming), but we could try to be civilised and present the
differing opinions in that case.
Isn't there someone on the list who has been offering lots of server
capacity? It could be hosted there.
Regards
Rob
4:53 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
On 1/12/2015 4:03 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
I know we are mostly old curmudgeons around here
(including me!), and
I very much like my printed books, but perhaps technology could come
to the rescue here. It wouldn't be hard to create a wiki where this
kind of information is collected, rather than distributed all over a
mailing list. And, with many hands, the work is much lighter. Perhaps
a bit idealistic, but the idea *could* fly if there was enough
critical mass. I can imagine sections on general techniques and then
on particular brands and machines, and there wouldn't need to be a
restriction on subject matter in terms of periods in history or other
dimensions, just whatever people are able to contribute. I can also
imagine edit wars if there is disagreement about something (eg
capacitor reforming), but we could try to be civilised and present the
differing opinions in that case. Isn't there someone on the list who
has been offering lots of server capacity? It could be hosted there.
Regards Rob
It's not just information. It's more craft, skill, handmanship. Those
are kinds of things are taught by apprenticeship.. not by book reading.
The right information, in the right hands, produces restoration.
- J.
4:29 p.m.
New subject: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
Well, perhaps my choice of word wasn't the best. I certainly didn't mean
to say that the subject matter should be made "easy". Computer
restoration is challenging and difficult, I acknowledge that. What I
wanted was to make the subject more approachable.
The problem is that if you oversimplify things you can actually make them
harder to understand. I never understood telephone exchanges until I finally
found a book that explained the operation of an actual small exchange at the
relay level, with complete schematics. It then all made a lot of sense.
:) And I try to read (and understand) most of what you
write, even if
it's not directly related to what I collect. What is this HPCC that you
HPCC is the 'Handheld and Portable Computer Club' (http://www.hpcc.org/)
It is not a coincidence that 'Handheld and Portable' starts with the same
letters as 'Hewlett Packard' :-). It started out as a club for users of the HP41,
then covered the 71B, RPL machines, and so on. It has now diversified somewhat
and it would be fair to describe it as a bunch of eccentrics that produces a
little booklet 4 time a year (we hope!) with articles mostly relating to HP calculators.
Some of the members meet once a month in London and discuss just about anything
and everything. At the last meeting I found myself chatting about repairing the
Model 33 ASR Teletype, programming the TRS80 Model 4, a detail of the
memory control system of the HP9830, a detail of a certain classic car
carburettor, and a lot more besides...
When I think more about it. I think I want a book that
guides me through
restoration of computers from digital between 1970 and 1980, since that
In other words you want a book that covers (at least) PDP8s, PDP10s, PDP11s,
VAXen and all their peripherals. Given that DEC wrote technical and maintence
manuals for those machines, and the total thickness of all such manuals would
be 10s of feet at least, I don't think it's going to get covered in detail in one
book.
-tony
11:21 a.m.
Automobiles were used by individuals for four
generations, the models are
built to appeal to different personalities and social strata.
A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed
their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
Almost everyone can relate to autos. In many countries, learning to
drive happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to
leave an indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage
of life.
Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341.
--
Will
11:29 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of William
Donzelli
Sent: 12 January 2015 16:22
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000
We did have a female operator at one place I worked who was rather "man hungry"
but she never fancied me....
... but that was a Honeywell DPS300....
Automobiles were used by individuals for four
generations, the models
are built to appeal to different personalities and social strata.
A significant number of people in three of those four generations
fixed their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
Almost everyone can relate to autos. In many countries, learning to drive
happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to leave an
indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage of life.
Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341.
--
Will
Dave
G4UGM
11:35 a.m.
On 1/12/2015 11:21 AM, William Donzelli
wrote:
Hahaha!
I guess I was just hoping that the
astonishing amount of genius and human
achievement that went into these
computers might push them towards more
equal *status* with vintage autos. Of
course, that would require a utopian
outlook.
Cars, despite their ubiquity, are
relatively crude machines.
- J.
Automobiles
were used by individuals for four generations, the models are
built to appeal to different personalities and social strata.
A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed
their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
Almost everyone can
relate to autos. In many countries, learning to
drive happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to
leave an indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage
of life.
Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341.
--
Will
11:54 a.m.
I think it can... I mean, am I the only one where playing with these old
machines, kept me good and busy, mentally occupied when I /wasn't/ getting
laid all those years as an awkward, scruffy kid? LOL. For some subset of
people... tech workers... EE/CS types ... I think an old computer can have
similar status, as a sentimental object... Not to mention, the /great
career/ and /success/ that resulted from playing with these old things when
I was a kid... I don't want to be overly crude... but... I will say it
worked for me... ;)
I will always have some nostalgia for those bits of technology that really
sparked the passion in me, got me where I am today. Others must feel
similarly, no?
Best,
Sean
On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:35 AM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 1/12/2015 11:21 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
Automobiles were used by individuals for four
generations, the models are
Hahaha!
I guess I was just hoping that the astonishing amount of genius and human
achievement that went into these computers might push them towards more
equal *status* with vintage autos. Of course, that would require a
utopian outlook.
Cars, despite their ubiquity, are relatively crude machines.
- J.
built to appeal to different personalities and
social strata.
A significant number of people in three of those four generations fixed
their own cars, so they had some knowledge of how they worked.
Almost everyone can relate to autos. In many countries, learning to
drive happens during the late teenage / early twenties, and tends to
leave an indelible mark on people, as things tend to do at that stage
of life.
Raise your hand if you ever got laid on a 4341.
--
Will
13 Jan
13 Jan
8:05 p.m.
On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 11:54:35AM -0500, Sean Caron wrote:
I will always have some nostalgia for those bits of
technology that really
sparked the passion in me, got me where I am today. Others must feel
similarly, no?
No. No, we don't.
That's why everyone should just, um, give up, and, say, send their PDP-11s
to me.
I'll take them off your hands.
Really. I don't want you to suffer.
Especially a PDP-11/20.
I'll even pay shipping for one.
Trust me. Your well-being is my only concern.
mcl
11 Jan
11 Jan
5:20 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 1:22 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 1/11/15 9:52 AM, Sean Caron wrote:
Bloody hell Al, how to win friends and influence people - NOT. That was
uncalled-for.
Mike
http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
we're all doing a service
to posterity by warehousing this stuff
No, you're not. You're being chumps.
1:39 p.m.
The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier
squat.
I don't know if that is true. The question is if the seller has something collectable
for sale. If you have a beat up, rusted, gutted item buried under junk then it really has
no collectable value. It is junk and yes the junk dealer will pay more for it. However, if
you have a nicely cared for system that is just being disconnected from service (properly
disconnected not just cutting wires because it is easier) in working condition a collector
will definitely pay more than the junk dealers. This is true across all collectable items
- comics, baseball cards, cars, whatever. No one will pay top dollar for a bunch of moldy,
water damages, torn up comics - why should computers be any different?
Problem is that most sellers are selling junk but want collectable prices.
3:42 p.m.
I agree.
I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and other Shit Collectors
"reality" TV series, is what to blame here:
"What is is?" "Looks like old door but it is just probably pile of
shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ of it!"
Oh, I can't wait episode when they find full IBM 360...
If I'm serious, eBay prices are totally out of this planet. Like that PDP-8, which
looks like seen nuclear war (probably twice), driven over Caterpillar D9 and covered
manure, price tag: 4800$. Whoooaa!
Some weeks ago there was little bit beaten up System/3 on auction, start price was
something like 10 000 or more. I offered couple thousand of it, which I think should be
quite fair price (at my point of view fair price, I have to pay another thousand of
freight, toll and taxes), but seller refused my offer. Even I really like to own one,
I'm not needing that bad I spend it more than my car. I think any realistic chance to
get some really good stuff is another hobbyist or just pure luck to get donated some old
good stuff.
But another thing is collectors. Would be reasonable if we have just some machines, those
what we really, really want, not hundreds and hundreds just for standing still and
collecting dust? What is value for machine which nobody can come to see, nobody use and
like Al said, machine which will be dumped to scrapyard by our childrens after our journey
ends?
Of cource it more than nice for all if somebody collect stuff and understand its
(historical or emotional) value to others. I try to do that. If I see some computer which
I'm not personally interested, but I can understand somebody other would love to get
it, I'll take with me. I'm not that greed that I should take profit of it, just my
own costs.
I tried keep my collection in reasonable state, I sold and donate all my 80s (home)
computers away around year ago. It is totally insane to stock items which not mean to you
that much. I have never used some Spectum, so why have to own something like that? What
for? When I gave those Commodores and MSXs I made over ten people happy, when they get
their childhood computers (...or they just put computers to dark warehouse, waiting for
scrapyard...) I think shared fun is better fun.
What I want (for my whole lifetime) is just couple minicomputers and mainframes (first is
coming!), so I can use all my efforts to bring those back to life, study them and show
those to people fairs and etc. I have over 50 good years ahead, but still I have no time
to study all computers on the world.
I introduce myself later better, but quick version: I'm from Finland and I work
automation business. Interested 60s and 70s minis and mains and all things what is related
same eras automation and process control. And I'm not big fan of Storage Wars...
Johannes ThelenFINLAND
From: cctalk at fahimi.net
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: RE: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2015 10:39:07 -0800
The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier
squat.
I don't know if that is true. The question is if the seller has something collectable
for sale. If you have a beat up, rusted, gutted item buried under junk then it really has
no collectable value. It is junk and yes the junk dealer will pay more for it. However, if
you have a nicely cared for system that is just being disconnected from service (properly
disconnected not just cutting wires because it is easier) in working condition a collector
will definitely pay more than the junk dealers. This is true across all collectable items
- comics, baseball cards, cars, whatever. No one will pay top dollar for a bunch of moldy,
water damages, torn up comics - why should computers be any different?
Problem is that most sellers are selling junk but want collectable prices.
12 Jan
12 Jan
4:28 a.m.
On 1/11/2015 12:42 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and
other Shit Collectors "reality" TV series, is what to blame here:
"What is is?" "Looks like old door but it is just probably pile of
shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ of it!"
Oh, I can't wait episode when they find full IBM 360...
I was on an episode of
storage wars this year and we did our best to
point out that the computers were not scrap and had value to
collectors. I appraised a sale high, but have sale info to back it up.
I'm pretty sure the ones on Storage Hunters made no attempt to find
someone to actually appraise the find before they destroyed it. Storage
Wars did make a search.
I don't think the TV programs have anything to do with it, it is a lot
of Ebay dealers who are making at least the asking prices be astronomical.
I also did point out that the price I found was a current sale, and that
most sales were for a lower value. And that the amount was more than
powdering the terminal and recovering the gold. The gold value was
pointed out, but the intact value would frequently be higher.
What would you rather have things move for? If they have no value
no-one will bother trying to preserve and sell them.
11:10 a.m.
I mean, I "understand" the mindset of these sellers insofar as they think,
oh, there's gotta be one big Fortune 500 company, or some government agency
that is just so completely dependent on some legacy system; someday it will
break down and they will need a part at any price and I WILL BE THERE!
Unfortunately for them it usually doesn't work that way; especially with
all the very clever emulation solutions out there, it's been possible to
break the dependence of these legacy software systems, on their associated
legacy hardware.
So it just sits, and sits, and sits and eventually it just goes off to the
scrap yard when they don't get any offers that meet their wild expectations.
But that's just how it is, dealing with people who are in this as a
business. They aren't going to do a deal because they want to see something
historic get saved, or they want to see someone who could actually use it,
enjoy it. They just want to see cash money on the table. That's fair.
They're dealers, not collectors.
That said, sometimes I have made an offer and noted "hey, I'm a hobbyist,
not a business" and I think it's helped me win the day, so, there are
vendors out there sensitive to the hobbyist community (once the inventory
gets stale enough, maybe? LOL).
I just like to see this stuff run, to have the opportunity to play with it;
laying your hands on some real hardware if you can is just a whole
different level of experience beyond an emulator, of course, I'm a
"hardware guy".
Al's post, it didn't bug me. Being in my line of work, I encounter lots of
folks who are, ah, a bit blunt, or lacking in the social graces to one
degree or another... just comes with the territory. It is, of course, food
for thought. His line of thinking is definitely something we should have a
cogent response for; my dad is similar in his thinking, he's had a long and
successful engineering career and his general opinion is this historical
preservation is a waste of time and money, "history is bunk", etc. and I've
been trying to convince him of the historicity of his work personally and
of all the various bits of ephemera accumulated over the course of his 40+
year career.
Because I do believe this work, that was done on these computers, this
software, is valuable and historically relevant... I don't believe EE/CS is
uniquely "post-historic" and I think all practitioners in the field should
consider the historical factors involved in their work... It's important to
preserve this stuff; "you don't know where you're going until you know
where you've been". Just as the architects and civil engineers have
preserved strange old buildings, the aeronautical guys are preserving old
aircraft, the mechanical guys are preserving old cars, locomotives, what
have you... these are the artifacts of our field, our profession... why be
so quick to relegate the entire historical record of computer engineering
to the dustbin?
Best,
Sean
On Mon, Jan 12, 2015 at 4:28 AM, jwsmobile <jws at jwsss.com> wrote:
On 1/11/2015 12:42 PM, Johannes Thelen wrote:
I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars
and other Shit Collectors
"reality" TV series, is what to blame here:
"What is is?" "Looks like old door but it is just probably pile of
shit!"
"Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$ of it!"
Oh, I can't wait episode when they find full IBM 360...
I was on an episode of storage wars this year and we did our best to point
out that the computers were not scrap and had value to collectors. I
appraised a sale high, but have sale info to back it up.
I'm pretty sure the ones on Storage Hunters made no attempt to find
someone to actually appraise the find before they destroyed it. Storage
Wars did make a search.
I don't think the TV programs have anything to do with it, it is a lot of
Ebay dealers who are making at least the asking prices be astronomical.
I also did point out that the price I found was a current sale, and that
most sales were for a lower value. And that the amount was more than
powdering the terminal and recovering the gold. The gold value was pointed
out, but the intact value would frequently be higher.
What would you rather have things move for? If they have no value no-one
will bother trying to preserve and sell them.
13 Jan
13 Jan
8:14 p.m.
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:42:04PM +0200, Johannes Thelen wrote:
I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars and
other Shit Collectors
"reality" TV series, is what to blame here: "What is is?" "Looks
like old
door but it is just probably pile of shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$
for it!"
I'm not sure they are to blame, but they are kind of funny :-)
I remember seeing one where one of the buyers I had considered "serious"
up to then, picked up a 24-port 1U switch: "Oh, that's worth $100". Um.
A 10/100 switch. And it's not 1999 anymore :-)
I don't know about anyone else, but I think the only use for such a thing,
is, "Throw it at the nearest Politician."
mcl
10:45 p.m.
On 1/13/2015 5:14 PM, Mark Linimon wrote:
On Sun, Jan 11, 2015 at 10:42:04PM +0200, Johannes
Thelen wrote:
FWIW the only Storage Wars show I've see anything computer related on,
they put a price on an ABC DB-25 switch of $5, and a network switch of $10.
The Storage Wars people seem to call around a lot to get appraisals
As with anything, this stuff will sit on the store shelves or in the
online inventory of the people on the SW shows and they will mark it
down if it doesn't sell. Just like anything in a junk store. They
aren't setting the prices for this stuff. If anything they hopefully
make the point that some of the older stuff is worth more than just
metal scrap.
The Storage Hunters did damage, I think because they tried to wing it on
their own, and didn't get any input from someone.
I'm not sure how to get out the word about the other component of
collecting which is that this stuff won't survive being handled by Barry
(on Storage Wars) who tends to throw things from the back of the unit
into the hallway. Heavier pieces in the Storage Hunters show I saw
where they mangled a nice DEC stash, they trashed the removable media,
which possibly was the most valuable thing in the unit.
Jim
I think these all Storage Hunters, Storage Wars
and other Shit Collectors
"reality" TV series, is what to blame here: "What is is?" "Looks
like old
door but it is just probably pile of shit!" "Man, you get AT LEAST 5000$
for it!"
I'm not sure they are to blame, but they are kind of funny :-)
I remember seeing one where one of the buyers I had considered "serious"
up to then, picked up a 24-port 1U switch: "Oh, that's worth $100". Um.
A 10/100 switch. And it's not 1999 anymore :-)
I don't know about anyone else, but I think the only use for such a thing,
is, "Throw it at the nearest Politician."
mcl
11 Jan
11 Jan
3:19 p.m.
On 1/11/2015 12:01 PM, William Donzelli
wrote:
Excellent point. However, I'm not one
of the diddlier squat buyers ... so
hadn't considered from that angle. :-)
- J.
It's far
better for a potential buyer that the seller thinks he has junk
only a scrap dealer is interested in. Scrap dealers don't pay diddly squat.
The problem is that most collectors pay diddlier squat.
11:46 a.m.
I am interested
in the IBM system, the tapes and tape controller units mainly, if you don't
want them.
Do be too upset if the 3803 and 3420 get junked - they are still out
in the wild. Don't wait too long, however, or they will all be gone.
I suppose some of the Bay Area people will keep an eye on this guy. If
someone does finally talk him down to Earth, please let us all know. I
can use parts from the 3830 (the best thing in the pile).
--
Will
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47 comments
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