24 May
2010
24 May
'10
8:39 p.m.
I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 recently.
I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some
documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not
located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? I found
references on this site (Feb. 2009) from other users talking about
building an archive of software for the 4051.
I have keyed in a few short programs to test the vector graphics, but it
would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. Even
printouts would be helpful. I recall when I last used a 4051 back in
the early '80's we had the ability to dump & load programs using the
serial port, and the ability to un-secret the programs. If I can find
this information again I would be glad to provide it to help build a
software library for this fantastic system.
Thanks,
C. Archer
26 May
26 May
7:32 a.m.
C. Archer wrote:
I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek 4051 recently.
I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some
documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not
located any software. Do you know of any source on-line?
...
...it
would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs.
The 4051 is a wonderful machine. When I worked at Tektronix between '77
and '90, I had a lot of occasion to work and play with this machine and
its variants (4052 and 4054). Their allure died off pretty quickly once
raster graphics came into its own, as the DVST (Direct View Storage
Tube) technology had some limitations, especially when it came to "live"
graphics.
I own a 4051 with a 4907 8" floppy drive system. I have quite a number
of games programs for the 4051, including the classic "SHOOT" series of
artillery firing games, the classic "WEATHER WAR", and quite a few other
games. My nieces and nephews get a kick playing these games on the
"antique computer" when they come to visit. Amazing that these simple
games can be so engaging when kids are used to Xbox and Playstation.
Problem is, I only have the games in floppy disk form, which doesn't
make them useful to others at this point. Other problem is that time is
hard to come by, and it'd take some time to transfer the programs to
some other electronic form. I will try to get to pulling these programs
off via serial RS-232 and make them available online somehow (probably
Bitsavers software archive), but not sure when I'll be able to do this.
It's my belief that part of the reason that software is so hard to find
for these machines is that they used a 1/4" QIC cartridge (DC-300A) tape
transport as the primary data storage medium. The problem is that the
tension bands in the DC-300A tapes degrade with time and eventually
break.
When this happens while the tape is in the transport results in the tape
generally getting mangled, making data recovery difficult. Another,
though much less-common problem with some cartridges is that the drive
wheel softens over time, and when the cartridge is placed in the
transport, the wheel ends up getting mangled, resulting in an inability
to read the tape at best, and mangled tape at worst.
The fact that this is a common occurrence has probably left a lot of
folks that may have some 405x software on tape frustrated when they try
to transfer it to other medium and end up with unreadable tapes at best,
or destroyed data at worst.
I have over 100, perhaps more, original tape cartridges with 405x
software on them. I also have a few vintage boxes of NOS (early 1980's)
unused DC-300A (Tektronix-branded) cartridges. All of them, without
exception, either have broken tension bands, or of they appear good,
break as soon as they are put into a transport. Reading them is
impossible without a new tension band. I can't find a source for
replacement tension bands. The only repair I know of is to try to find
a new cartridge that has a good tension band, and then go through the
tedious process of transplanting the good tension band into a cartridge
with a broken one. Problem is, DC-300's haven't been made for a long
time. There are currently other 1/4" QIC tape cartridges available on
the market that have tension bands which should work as transplant
candidates, but the cheapest one is around $30 (DC-6250) per cartridge
based on what I've been able to find in a quick online search. To
replace a bunch of tension bands using this method would be
prohibitively expensive (for me). Getting one good band and
transplanting it one at a time into cartridges with broken bands would
be extremely time-consuming, and again, time is something that I don't
have a lot of.
If anyone out there has ideas to remedy this situation, I'm open to
suggestions.
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum.com
7:41 a.m.
On 5/26/10 7:32 AM, Rick Bensene wrote:
prohibitively expensive (for me). Getting one good
band and
transplanting it one at a time into cartridges with broken bands would
be extremely time-consuming, and again, time is something that I don't
have a lot of.
If anyone out there has ideas to remedy this situation, I'm open to
suggestions.
Chuck Guzis has used Baumgartens 4 1/4" Plastibands. I tried a few and
had some trouble with them popping off, but it may just be how I was
installing them.
http://www.rapidsupplies.com/baumgartenssf-6000plastibandssize4-14100bxasso…
8:21 a.m.
On 26/05/10 15:32, Rick Bensene wrote:
I own a 4051 with a 4907 8" floppy drive system.
I have quite a number
of games programs for the 4051, including the classic "SHOOT" series of
artillery firing games, the classic "WEATHER WAR", and quite a few other
games. My nieces and nephews get a kick playing these games on the
"antique computer" when they come to visit. Amazing that these simple
games can be so engaging when kids are used to Xbox and Playstation.
Sometimes simplicity is nice -- the lack of flashy graphics lets you
concentrate on playing the game. I love Lunar Lander and Asteroids (and
would love it even more if I could get my paws on a boardset for either
one, working or otherwise)...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
1:32 p.m.
Philip Pemberton wrote:
Sometimes simplicity is nice -- the lack of flashy graphics lets you
concentrate on playing the game. I love Lunar Lander and Asteroids
(and would love it even more if I could get my paws on a boardset for
either one, working or otherwise)...
I have some Asteroids boards here, but not working I only have one
that's running at the moment here. Some are mssing the Xtal, as they
mounted this upright and it always breaks--but they have other problems
than this that will need some troubleshooting--something more that I
keep running out of time for. You could have one, just send a few bucks
for my time and shipping. I just need to find a box to ship this. My
wish is someday to get a bigger display , say a 25" tube.
=Dan
--
http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
6:42 p.m.
Philip Pemberton wrote:
Sometimes simplicity is nice -- the lack of flashy
graphics lets you
concentrate on playing the game.
Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom
games, as they proudly
explained in their "We stick our graphics where the sun don't shine"
advertising campaign with the illustration of a glowing brain:
http://www.atarimania.com/pubs/hi_res/pub_infocom.jpg
"You'll never see Infocom's graphics on any computer screen. Because
there's never been a computer built by man that could handle the images
we produce. And, there never will be.
"We draw our graphics from the limitless imagery of your imagination--a
technology so powerful, it makes any picture that's ever come out of a
screen look like graffiti by comparison."
Unfortunately they seem to have forgotten that not too many years later.
Sigh.
7:28 p.m.
In article <4BFDCE11.3060105 at brouhaha.com>,
Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com> writes:
Carried to its logical extreme by (most) Infocom games
[...]
Unfortunately they seem to have forgotten that not too many years later.
Sigh.
Zork: Grand Inquisitor was fun, but it seemed to be too late to make a
difference.
Everything after that just seems to be a retread of old stuff.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
11:20 p.m.
Clay Archer wrote:
I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring a Tek
4051 recently.
I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some
documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not
located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? I found
references on this site (Feb. 2009) from other users talking about
building an archive of software for the 4051.
I have keyed in a few short programs to test the vector graphics, but it
would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. Even
printouts would be helpful. I recall when I last used a 4051 back in
the early '80's we had the ability to dump & load programs using the
serial port, and the ability to un-secret the programs. If I can find
this information again I would be glad to provide it to help build a
software library for this fantastic system.
Thanks,
C. Archer
I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or the
GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in progress
(progress being very slow at the moment) based on disassembling the
system ROMs and going through the service manuals. I recently came into
possession of the actual source code for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche,
which I've passed on to Al for archiving. Looking forward to reading
through those once he's done!
I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, I'll
know enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for the real
4051 to allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully writing them
back!). But I have a few other things stealing time from me at the
moment, so it won't be in the near future...
Josh
27 May
27 May
3:26 a.m.
Date: Wed, 26 May 2010 23:20:10 -0700
From: derschjo at mail.msu.edu
To:
Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...
Clay Archer wrote:
I will dig around here and may be able to help with some friends on this. I am hooked up
with a few ex Tek guys and located here near the Tek campus. We meet Friday nights for
pizza and beer, talk ham radio and
other geeky stuff.
Also, there is an effort here to put together a museum and archive the efforts of this
wonderful company:
http://vintagetek.org/
Needless to say Tektronix is not cooperating. They have been purchased by a conglomerate
and don't seem to care too much about history.
Our local electronics store (Norvac) was cleaning out their back room and I got my hands
on this bookshelf set of Tek manuals:
4050 Series Graphics System Reference Manual (This one covers the BASIC interpreter
syntax, and a few examples)
4051 Preliminary Service Manual (This one has some really well done cartoon hand drawings,
nice flow charts, and schematics)
T4002 Graphics computer Terminal (3" thick and looks complete, users manual, service
manual and a section on DEC interface options to PDP-8, 4803 interface unit)
If this material is not up already, whats the recommended workflow, to get these into
Bitsavers or the BAMA archive ? Questions like recommended scan resolution, output to pdf
or general comments from others who have done this.
Randy
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy think 9 to 5 is a cute idea. Combine multiple calendars with Hotmail.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multicalendar&ocid=…
I have been fortunate in acquiring and restoring
a Tek 4051 recently.
I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still have some
documentation, and I found other manuals on bitsavers.org but have not
located any software. Do you know of any source on-line? I found
references on this site (Feb. 2009) from other users talking about
building an archive of software for the 4051.
I have keyed in a few short programs to test the vector graphics, but it
would be nice to have the original standard pack tape programs. Even
printouts would be helpful. I recall when I last used a 4051 back in
the early '80's we had the ability to dump & load programs using the
serial port, and the ability to un-secret the programs. If I can find
this information again I would be glad to provide it to help build a
software library for this fantastic system.
Thanks,
C. Archer
I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a serial port or the
GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in progress
(progress being very slow at the moment) based on disassembling the
system ROMs and going through the service manuals. I recently came into
possession of the actual source code for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche,
which I've passed on to Al for archiving. Looking forward to reading
through those once he's done!
I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, I'll
know enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for the real
4051 to allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully writing them
back!). But I have a few other things stealing time from me at the
moment, so it won't be in the near future...
Josh
7:24 a.m.
On 5/27/10 3:26 AM, Randy Dawson wrote:
If this material is not up already, whats the
recommended workflow, to get these into Bitsavers or the BAMA archive ?
I prefer 400/600 dpi bi-tonal group 4 fax encoded tiffs for text and 300dpi jpg for images
for bitsavers.
Bob Rosenbloom has a huge collection of 405x docs that he's promised to get to me when
things calm down.
The foldout pages in Tek service manuals really need a scanner capable of grayscale 11 x
20 something scanning
to do a good job, which I have.
7:45 a.m.
In article <4BFE808A.7090308 at bitsavers.org>,
Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:
The foldout pages in Tek service manuals really need a
scanner capable
of grayscale 11 x 20 something scanning to do a good job, which I have.
Its possible to use a smaller scanner and an image stitching program
to combine the individual scans into a single, larger raster image.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
12:25 p.m.
Its possible to use a smaller scanner and an image
stitching program
to combine the individual scans into a single, larger raster image.
But please be careful not to do what I've seen on some websites (not
Bitsavers, I hasten to add). And that is to scan the schematic as 2
halves with no overlap. There is always some small bit cut off when this
is done and by Murphy's law, the bit you lose is essential (like giving
the order of connections of bus lines ot an IC, or part of a component
value, or....).
-tony
30 May
30 May
12:17 p.m.
>> I have been fortunate in acquiring and
restoring a Tek 4051
>> recently. I had used one of these back in '77 to '82 and I still
>> have some documentation, and I found other manuals on
>> bitsavers.org but have not located any software. Do you know of
>> any source on-line? I found references on this site (Feb. 2009)
>> from other users talking about building an archive of software
>> for the 4051.
I've never seen a 4051, but I possess a 4052. I bought it in a clear
out at work rather a lot of years ago, and it's still my favourite
machine in my collection.
I had a dig around yesterday, and I found some of the stuff for it:
4050 Series Reference Manual
4050 Series Operator's Manual
4051 Option 1 (Data communications interface) operation manual
4052/2A/4/4A Service Manual (technical data)
4052/2A Service Manual (parts list and schematics)
Those last two I bought from Tektronix soon after I acquired the
machine. I don't begrudge them the more than 100 pounds each I paid for
the two manuals, but I think it was pretty stingy of them to ship them
without binders. Punched three-hole, too, so hard to find binders (In
Europe, including here in the UK, we mostly use four holes at 8cm spacing)
I also found a couple of tapes I made of programs - mostly fractals, but
I think the Christmas card from the magazine is on there, and a partly
finished program to draw maps in various projections.
What I haven't found yet, but am pretty sure I have:
A box of tapes from when the machine was new, with original software
Some microfiches of Tek manuals, including a large number of issues of
the 4050 Series Software Library Newsletter (later Tekniques magazine).
It was one of these that I printed out in order to type in the
Christmas card program.
The microfiches were given me by someone in Tek UK when I was
researching the talk I gave at the VCF in Santa Clara in 1998. I never
wrote and thanked them, for which I feel horribly guilty.
If someone has the equipment to scan microfiches, and is prepared to put
in the time to sort the stuff and get it online, I shall be happy to
hand them over. I could probably scan some manuals too - I think the
scanner at work will do the A3 or ANSI B pages.
It looks as though my next project will be to try and link the serial
port of my 4052 (which is part of the ROM expansion backpack, of all
things) to a machine on which I have internet access, or from which I
can store on media that I can read on a machine with internet access.
It's not until I try something like this that I realise just how poorly
connected my collection is...
> I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over
a serial port or
> the GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in
> progress (progress being very slow at the moment) based on
> disassembling the system ROMs and going through the service
> manuals. I recently came into possession of the actual source code
> for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, which I've passed on to Al for
> archiving. Looking forward to reading through those once he's
> done!
That is a great find! The 4052 has a very nice bitslice processor that
mostly emulates a 6800 (the decimal adjust instruction is missing, and
some simple memory management is added), so I suspect that a lot of 4052
ROM code is ported directly from the 4051.
Also, there is an effort here to put together a museum
and archive
the efforts of this wonderful company:
http://vintagetek.org/
Site looks promising. I wondered about signing up, but it asks me when
I worked at Tek (I didn't) and whereabouts in the USA I live (I don't).
OTOH I couldn't see any useful things like a mailing list or
discussion forums.
For the moment, I think I'll keep an eye on the site and see how it evolves.
Philip.
PS I think the 4050 series are great machines, and I'd love to get
together with people here and form some sort of user group.
1 Jun
1 Jun
11:11 a.m.
It looks as though my next project will be to try and
link the serial
port of my 4052 (which is part of the ROM expansion backpack, of all
things) to a machine on which I have internet access, or from which I
can store on media that I can read on a machine with internet access.
It's not until I try something like this that I realise just how poorly
connected my collection is...
One thing which I find extremely useful fo this sort of thing is an HP
palmtop (I normally use an HP95LX). It has a serial port, a built-in
terminal emulator which can capture (and send) the raw data over the
serial port, and also has XMODEM (which I have never used) and kermit
protocols in the ROM. Just about all my machines have at least one serial
poer, I have my RS232 'hackers kit' containing a mini breakout box,
null-modem adapters (which are easier to use than the breakout box if
that's all that's needed) and an universal gender cable. The last is a
length of 25 way IDC cable with a DB25 plug and a DB25 socket at each end
(4 connecotrs in all). It has proved very useful...
What I would do is arrange for the 4052 to send the listing to the serial
port, and capture in on the 95LX. THen kermit that up to my linux box so
I could tidy it up and upload it somwhere.
Going through the palmtop has the advantage that I don;t ahve to get the
linux box and the macnine I am working on next to each other (which can
be difficult!). The 95LX is small enough that it can even sit on top of a
PCB if there's nowehre else for it to go.
-tony
17 Jul
17 Jul
1:51 p.m.
New subject: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)
Back in May I said
Some microfiches of Tek manuals, including a large
number of issues of
the 4050 Series Software Library Newsletter (later Tekniques magazine).
It was one of these that I printed out in order to type in the
Christmas card program.
The microfiches were given me by someone in Tek UK when I was
researching the talk I gave at the VCF in Santa Clara in 1998. I never
wrote and thanked them, for which I feel horribly guilty.
If someone has the equipment to scan microfiches, and is prepared to put
in the time to sort the stuff and get it online, I shall be happy to
hand them over. I could probably scan some manuals too - I think the
scanner at work will do the A3 or ANSI B pages.
I've found my Tek microfiche collection!
Twenty-nine fiches (although some have only a few sheets, and one has
only a single sheet) with marketing announcements, brochures, manuals,
and a lot of back issues of the 4050 series newsletter (which later
became Tekniques magazine)
I'd like to see this preserved - does anyone have a scanner that will do
fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so,
I'll lend you the fiches.
The size reduction seems to be about 24 times, so to get the equivalent
of 400dpi from the originals you need to scan at 9600dpi. I'm not sure
whether the quality is there, though.
(I just asked my scanner to have a go at the first page, and it's been
sitting thinking about it for nearly half an hour now. I think that's
because it has to synthesise the higher resolutions from several scans,
or something, but even so.)
Philip.
4:46 p.m.
New subject: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)
Philip,
A few of us are building a Tektronix museum here in Beaverton. I have forwarded your mail
to Ed Sinclair, (eds at vintagetek.otrg) principal on the project. He has a 4051. Also a
bunch of tapes with the belt and capstan degrade problem, and I mentioned the idea of
transplanting the media to a new dc300 cartridge.
anybody who has done this and offer hints and kinks is welcome to the discussion!
Ive moved and salvaged VCR tape, but never a 3m data cartridge.
Randy
Date: Sat, 17 Jul 2010 21:51:08 +0100
From: philip at axeside.co.uk
To:
Subject: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...)
Back in May I said
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:…
Some microfiches of Tek manuals, including a
large number of issues of
the 4050 Series Software Library Newsletter (later Tekniques magazine).
It was one of these that I printed out in order to type in the
Christmas card program.
The microfiches were given me by someone in Tek UK when I was
researching the talk I gave at the VCF in Santa Clara in 1998. I never
wrote and thanked them, for which I feel horribly guilty.
If someone has the equipment to scan microfiches, and is prepared to put
in the time to sort the stuff and get it online, I shall be happy to
hand them over. I could probably scan some manuals too - I think the
scanner at work will do the A3 or ANSI B pages.
I've found my Tek microfiche collection!
Twenty-nine fiches (although some have only a few sheets, and one has
only a single sheet) with marketing announcements, brochures, manuals,
and a lot of back issues of the 4050 series newsletter (which later
became Tekniques magazine)
I'd like to see this preserved - does anyone have a scanner that will do
fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so,
I'll lend you the fiches.
The size reduction seems to be about 24 times, so to get the equivalent
of 400dpi from the originals you need to scan at 9600dpi. I'm not sure
whether the quality is there, though.
(I just asked my scanner to have a go at the first page, and it's been
sitting thinking about it for nearly half an hour now. I think that's
because it has to synthesise the higher resolutions from several scans,
or something, but even so.)
Philip.
19 Jul
19 Jul
12:21 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...))
In article <BLU145-W4E5759E0F6332DE691D00BABD0 at phx.gbl>,
Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> writes:
oject. He has a 4051. Also a bunch of tapes with the
belt and capstan degr=
ade problem=2C and I mentioned the idea of transplanting the media to a new=
dc300 cartridge.
As I understand it the DC300/DC100 cartridges are a linear encoding
format (according to Wikipedia, anyway).
I've been thinking that we need to create a device for reading these
cartridges that is similar to the 7/9-track device at the Computer
History Museum. We should be able to take a read head from an
existing drive and create a mechanism for slowly and gently moving the
tape over the read head and digitize the resulting analog signals for
later signal processing.
Is there any sort of detailed writeup of the design of the 7/9-track
machine at CHM?
If we build a similar device for these cartrdige tapes we can avoid
the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure
manner.
I've also been wondering about building a circuit that creates fake
analog signals to the existing tape drive circuitry so that you can
"play back" the archived tapes into an existing device without having
to worry about physical media. First I think its more important to
create a device for safely archiving the media, though.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
1:42 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for
In article <BLU145-W4E5759E0F6332DE691D00BABD0 at phx.gbl>,
Randy Dawson <rdawson16 at hotmail.com> writes:
If you mean as opposed to a helical recording (like video tapes, etc),
then it is.
IRIC the Tekky 405x series didn't use any of the standard encodings,
though. They had a 2 coil head that read/wrote 2 tracks at the same time.
A pulse on one track was a '0' bit,a pusle on the other track was a '1'.
Whether simultaneous pulses on both tracks were used as some kind of
marker I don;t know, many otehr similar systems did use that.
oject. He has a 4051. Also a bunch of tapes with
the belt and capstan degr=
ade problem=2C and I mentioned the idea of transplanting the media to a new=
dc300 cartridge.
As I understand it the DC300/DC100 cartridges are a linear encoding
format (according to Wikipedia, anyway). I've also been wondering about building a circuit
that creates fake
analog signals to the existing tape drive circuitry so that you can
"play back" the archived tapes into an existing device without having
to worry about physical media. First I think its more important to
create a device for safely archiving the media, though.
Since the first things that';s done with the analogue signals from the
head is that they're converted into digital pulses, it may be easier to
feed the data in at that point, similar to the flopy drive emulators
9using SD cards, etc) that are around now.
-tony
22 Jul
22 Jul
9:58 a.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for
IRIC the Tekky 405x series didn't use any of the
standard encodings,
though. They had a 2 coil head that read/wrote 2 tracks at the same time.
A pulse on one track was a '0' bit,a pusle on the other track was a '1'.
Whether simultaneous pulses on both tracks were used as some kind of
marker I don;t know, many otehr similar systems did use that.
It was indeed. Pulse on one track = 1, pulse on other track = 0, pulse
on both tracks = marker. The pulses on each track were alternately
positive- and negative-going to minimise the dc component.
I have the spec somewhere. Probably in one of my Tek service manuals.
Philip.
2:20 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for
In article <4C4878A5.3010605 at axeside.co.uk>,
Philip Belben <philip at axeside.co.uk> writes:
I have the spec somewhere. Probably in one of my Tek
service manuals.
Making that available would be most appreciated!
Is it already on bitsavers somewhere?
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"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
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3:30 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for
On 7/22/10 2:20 PM, Richard wrote:
Is it already on bitsavers somewhere?
I should be in the 405x service manual.
I'll see about getting the standalone GPIB drive manual up if
it isn't already there.
Getting data off of a 4050 cart is on my list of things to do.
I have a pile of them, as well as someone else in the valley.
23 Jul
23 Jul
11:28 a.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking
IRIC the Tekky 405x series didn't use any of
the standard encodings,
though. They had a 2 coil head that read/wrote 2 tracks at the same time.
A pulse on one track was a '0' bit,a pusle on the other track was a '1'.
Whether simultaneous pulses on both tracks were used as some kind of
marker I don;t know, many otehr similar systems did use that.
It was indeed. Pulse on one track = 1, pulse on other track = 0, pulse
on both tracks = marker. The pulses on each track were alternately
positive- and negative-going to minimise the dc component.
I have the spec somewhere. Probably in one of my Tek service manuals.
How detailed a spec? Is there enough to understand the cotnents of a tape
at the file level?
-tony
19 Jul
19 Jul
1:49 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...))
On 19 Jul 2010 at 13:21, Richard wrote:
If we build a similar device for these cartrdige tapes
we can avoid
the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure
manner.
I don't understand (I'm probably very dense today). The belt ensures
that the supply and takeup reels in a DCxxx cartridge move together.
The reels are not accessible without disassembling the cartridge.
How would one handle a cartridge with a broken belt with your idea?
--Chuck
3:22 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...))
In article <4C4457FD.7434.156248F at cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
On 19 Jul 2010 at 13:21, Richard wrote:
I think you answered your own question: you disassemble the cartridge.
The belt is not necessary to read data from the tape, only to keep the
two reels in the cartridge moving together.
This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup
and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The
tape is not pulled over the read head under tension. With tapes that
you had to recondition via baking, you don't want to put them under
tension anyway. The tapes are lightly pulled over the read head. I
don't know the exact mechanics of the transport, but I believe it is
electronically controlled and not manual. However, it exerts far less
physical stress on the tape as I understand it.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
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If we build a similar device for these cartrdige
tapes we can avoid
the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure
manner.
I don't understand (I'm probably very dense today). The belt ensures
that the supply and takeup reels in a DCxxx cartridge move together.
The reels are not accessible without disassembling the cartridge.
How would one handle a cartridge with a broken belt with your idea?
3:37 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...))
On 19 Jul 2010 at 16:22, Richard wrote:
The belt is not necessary to read data from the tape,
only to keep the
two reels in the cartridge moving together.
This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup
and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The
tape is not pulled over the read head under tension.
Do you mean the system used in vacuum-column 7/9 track drives? (I
think IBM used a pinch roller on either side of the head; CDC used
vacuum capstans. The tape columns were kept at the appropriate level
by a photocell system, with each reel motor activated as necessary to
keep an adquate supply of tape in the columns for buffering.
Making something like that for QIC tapes is possible, but there are a
lot of mechanical issues to address.
--Chuck
4:03 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!
On 7/19/10 6:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to
determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted
I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
This is
similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup
and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The
tape is not pulled over the read head under tension.
Do you mean the system used in vacuum-column 7/9 track drives? (I
think IBM used a pinch roller on either side of the head; CDC used
vacuum capstans. The tape columns were kept at the appropriate level
by a photocell system, with each reel motor activated as necessary to
keep an adquate supply of tape in the columns for buffering.
4:16 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!
On 19 Jul 2010 at 19:03, Dave McGuire wrote:
Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used
pressure sensors to
determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted
I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'.
Take a look at the bitsavers archive for the CDC 606 tape drive. 2
photosensors per column. (page 1-6). The 60x drives were marvels of
engineering and built like tanks.
--Chuck
5:27 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes
On 7/19/10 7:16 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Sweet! I will check that out. I've never seen a 606 in person.
The 92181 (a.k.a. CDC Keystone, a.k.a. DEC TU-80) is one of my
all-time favorite tape drives. Not vacuum-column, but still, an
ingenious and wonderful design. I've had three over the years, sold all
of them, have regretted it ever since. If anyone in the southeastern US
has one in need of a home..
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Every
vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to
determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted
I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'.
Take a look at the bitsavers archive for the CDC 606 tape drive. 2
photosensors per column. (page 1-6). The 60x drives were marvels of
engineering and built like tanks.
8 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes
On 19 Jul 2010 at 20:27, Dave McGuire wrote:
Sweet! I will check that out. I've never seen
a 606 in person.
1200 lbs. of orange-y goodness.
CDC replaced them with the 65x series, which was a somewhat cost-
reduced version (ISTR that the voice-coil vacuum valves were one of
the big corners cut). Dark grey with blue glass; not nearly as
imposing. Supplanted by the 66x drives, which were autothreading
(most of the time, anyway) and with an automatic drive "window".
There was also a 1" version of the drive, the 626. I wonder if any
survive.
--Chuck
4:59 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found!
On 2010 Jul 19, at 4:03 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Every vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to
determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted
I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'.
On the desk beside me, I'm looking at a part from a Honeywell vac-col
tape drive. It's an aluminum extrusion 1/2-inch wide and about 6 inches
long, with a masked glass plate on one side. Inside, spread along the
length are 8 selenium photocell strips.
I think this was located somewhere around the mid-point on the vacuum
column, that is, the target area in the column to keep the tape loop
at. Perhaps optical was chosen for servo response time compared to
mechanical pressure switches.
I haven't examined a large variety of drives either, but at least on
some drives, the sensors are not distributed evenly along the length of
the column, but are concentrated around the target area, and become
sparser towards the extremities. Never seen it, but one could imagine a
hybrid design with optical sense around the target area and pressure
sense further out.
5:33 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes
On 7/19/10 7:59 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Wow, that's nifty. What vintage is that drive, any idea?
Every
vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to
determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted
I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'.
On the desk beside me, I'm looking at a part from a Honeywell vac-col
tape drive. It's an aluminum extrusion 1/2-inch wide and about 6 inches
long, with a masked glass plate on one side. Inside, spread along the
length are 8 selenium photocell strips. I think this was located somewhere around the
mid-point on the vacuum
column, that is, the target area in the column to keep the tape loop at.
Perhaps optical was chosen for servo response time compared to
mechanical pressure switches.
I haven't examined a large variety of drives either, but at least on
some drives, the sensors are not distributed evenly along the length of
the column, but are concentrated around the target area, and become
sparser towards the extremities. Never seen it, but one could imagine a
hybrid design with optical sense around the target area and pressure
sense further out.
Yes, I've seen those nonlinear sensor distributions too. My Kennedy
9400 uses continuously-variable pressure transducers along the vacuumn
columns. They are effectively variable capacitors.
That drive also has an 8088 CPU and an 8279 keypad/display interface
in it. Neat stuff. :)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
6:56 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes
On 2010 Jul 19, at 5:33 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 7/19/10 7:59 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
Wow, that's nifty. What vintage is that drive, any idea?
It was 7-track, so along with what I saw of the construction, early-mid
60's.
I only got some bits and pieces, mostly the head/capstan deck, never
actually saw the whole thing.
Every
vacuum-column drive I've seen has used pressure sensors to
determine the position of the tape loops within the columns. Granted
I've not seen a HUGE variety of different drives, but...just sayin'.
On the desk beside me, I'm looking at a part from a Honeywell vac-col
tape drive. It's an aluminum extrusion 1/2-inch wide and about 6
inches
long, with a masked glass plate on one side. Inside, spread along the
length are 8 selenium photocell strips.
4:18 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...))
In article <4C447151.12348.1B912DB at cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
On 19 Jul 2010 at 16:22, Richard wrote:
Nope.
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"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
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The belt is not necessary to read data from the
tape, only to keep the
two reels in the cartridge moving together.
This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there are no takeup
and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The
tape is not pulled over the read head under tension.
Do you mean the system used in vacuum-column 7/9 track drives?
3:40 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...))
On 7/19/10 3:22 PM, Richard wrote:
This is similar to the 9/7-track reading device: there
are no takeup
and feeder reels as they are normally present in a working drive. The
tape is not pulled over the read head under tension. With tapes that
you had to recondition via baking, you don't want to put them under
tension anyway. The tapes are lightly pulled over the read head. I
don't know the exact mechanics of the transport, but I believe it is
electronically controlled and not manual. However, it exerts far less
physical stress on the tape as I understand it.
I have been using conventional drives for 1/2" tape recovery.
John Bordyuik's web site at one point described the system he uses,
which has a modified M4 data tranport fitted with an IBM 3480 16 track
magnetorestrictive head and modified read electronics. In either case
the tape transport is conventional.
3M 1/4" data cartridges need the band to move the tape. There is no
conventional way to move the tape without this.
4:20 p.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking for Tektronix 4051 programs...))
In article <4C44D464.2010005 at bitsavers.org>,
Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> writes:
I have been using conventional drives for 1/2"
tape recovery.
OK, apparently my memory is misfiring then. You aren't using the
naked read head and digitizing the analog signals from the head and
then using digital signal processing to extract 0s and 1s from the
analog signals?
That is the system I was remembering. I thought I remembers that it
didn't use traditional drive transport mechanisms because the tapes
that were processed that way were too fragile to survive transport in
that manner.
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"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
20 Jul
20 Jul
11:25 a.m.
New subject: recovering cartridge tapes (was: Tek fiches found! (was: Looking
On 19 Jul 2010 at 13:21, Richard wrote:
So? You disassemble the cartridge. It's not hard (particularly if you
don't need to get it back together)
If we build a similar device for these cartrdige
tapes we can avoid
the capstan and drive belt problems and recover the data in a secure
manner.
I don't understand (I'm probably very dense today). The belt ensures
that the supply and takeup reels in a DCxxx cartridge move together.
The reels are not accessible without disassembling the cartridge.
How would one handle a cartridge with a broken belt with your idea?
I think the idea is that you extract the tape itself from the cartridge
and run it over a head in a specially-made drive and thus extract the
data (really flux transitions) from it.
-tony
31 Jul
31 Jul
8:32 a.m.
New subject: Tek Fiche update
Randy Dawson wrote:
A few of us are building a Tektronix museum here in
Beaverton. I
have forwarded your mail to Ed Sinclair, (eds at vintagetek.otrg)
principal on the project. He has a 4051.
Thanks Randy. VintageTek.org looks an interesting site!
Update on the fiches: A couple of days ago I got the library assistant
at work to show me how to use the fiche scanner. I tried one of the Tek
fiches and scanned a few pages - a marketing release and a price list -
and the results looked pretty good. Far better than the printouts I did
on the old microfiche printer way back in '98! (The same fiche printer
is still standing idle beside the new scanner!) The glass on this
scanner is _filthy._ I need to clean it, otherwise I'll have to move
the fiche around every couple of pages to stop the dirt lining up with
the text...
Anyway, over the next few weeks (months?) I hope to borrow the key to
the microfiche room and play with the scanner a bit more. I know it can
do TIFF as the output; I've just got to get the hang of margins and
stuff. (For example there are marks on the screen for A4 paper - not
ANSI size A, which the Tek manuals mostly are - but it actually scans a
bit outside them.)
As I said,
> Twenty-nine fiches (although some have only a few
sheets, and one
> has only a single sheet) with marketing announcements, brochures,
> manuals, and a lot of back issues of the 4050 series newsletter
> (which later became Tekniques magazine)
What are people interested in? I take it Bitsavers will be interested
in any manual they don't have (I've printed out a list of what they do
have). But (for example) the first two items are the release
announcement of the 4051 and the 1977 4051 price list. Who is
preserving this sort of stuff?
Philip.
2 Aug
2 Aug
4:13 p.m.
New subject: Tek Fiche update
I would be interested in 411x service manuals.
Program listings and newsletters are hard to come by as well, although
I have a fairly complete set of 405x newsletters.
ROM source code listings are most definately welcome if present; I
don't think I've ever seen Tek ROM source code listings unless they
were reverse engineered from burned ROM images.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
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4:27 p.m.
New subject: Tek Fiche update
I have the service manuals for the 4114. I can get them to Al at bitsavers (assuming he
has time!) if you want.
Bob
--- On Mon, 8/2/10, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
From: Richard <legalize at xmission.com>
Subject: Re: Tek Fiche update
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Monday, August 2, 2010, 4:13 PM
I would be interested in 411x service manuals.
Program listings and newsletters are hard to come by as
well, although
I have a fairly complete set of 405x newsletters.
ROM source code listings are most definately welcome if
present; I
don't think I've ever seen Tek ROM source code listings
unless they
were reverse engineered from burned ROM images.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft
available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
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3 Aug
3 Aug
3:01 a.m.
New subject: Tek Fiche update
In article <518253.99364.qm at web80502.mail.mud.yahoo.com>,
Bob Rosenbloom <bobalan at sbcglobal.net> writes:
I have the service manuals for the 4114. I can get
them to Al at bitsavers (a
ssuming he has time!) if you want.
If you get them to me, I can scan them to Al's specifications for
bitsavers. (We've done this before.)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
18 Jul
18 Jul
8:10 a.m.
New subject: Tek fiches found!
On 7/17/10 1:51 PM, Philip Belben wrote:
I'd like to see this preserved - does anyone have
a scanner that will do
fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so,
I'll lend you the fiches.
I have a fiche scanner, and have some 4050 fiche queued up to do.
19 Jul
19 Jul
12:43 p.m.
New subject: Tek fiches found!
I'd like
to see this preserved - does anyone have a scanner that will do
fiche, and the time to work on these to get good quality scans? If so,
I'll lend you the fiches.
I have a fiche scanner, and have some 4050 fiche queued up to do. 
27 May
27 May
1:23 p.m.
On Wed, 26 May 2010, Josh Dersch wrote:
I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over a
serial port or the GPIB
bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in progress (progress
being very slow at the moment) based on disassembling the system ROMs and
going through the service manuals. I recently came into possession of the
actual source code for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, which I've passed on to
Al for archiving. Looking forward to reading through those once he's done!
I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation, I'll know
enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for the real 4051 to
allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully writing them back!). But I have
a few other things stealing time from me at the moment, so it won't be in the
near future...
So the information on
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tek4051/ (I've already posted
the link some time ago) is of no use? Funny, because I *did* write a
working BASIC program to dump tapes into CBM 8050 disk files (I have that
drive attached to our 4051 as you know). But I still have to transfer
these files to some other system... (too much other things to do).
Christian
1:55 p.m.
On May 27, 2010, at 1:23 PM, Christian Corti <cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de
wrote:
On Wed, 26 May 2010, Josh Dersch wrote:
Uh, I apologize for however I appear to have slighted you?
The information is useful, yes, but less useful to me, being in a
language I do not speak (and Google translate does a fairly poor job
on this stuff.)
By all means, please do share your utility with the world. I don't
quite understand the attitude here...
Josh
I was working on software to dump 4051 tapes over
a serial port or
the GPIB bus, as well as an emulator. Both are still works in
progress (progress being very slow at the moment) based on
disassembling the system ROMs and going through the service
manuals. I recently came into possession of the actual source code
for the 4051's ROMs on microfiche, which I've passed on to Al for
archiving. Looking forward to reading through those once he's done!
I'm hoping that once I work out enough to write a basic emulation,
I'll know enough about the hardware to write some assembly code for
the real 4051 to allow raw dumps of 4051 tapes (and hopefully
writing them back!). But I have a few other things stealing time
from me at the moment, so it won't be in the near future...
So the information on ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tek4051/
(I've already posted the link some time ago) is of no use? Funny,
because I *did* write a working BASIC program to dump tapes into CBM
8050 disk files (I have that drive attached to our 4051 as you
know). But I still have to transfer these files to some other
system... (too much other things to do).
Christian
9:52 p.m.
The information is useful, yes, but less useful to
me, being in a
language I do not speak (and Google translate does a fairly poor job
on this stuff.) ,
There is lots of usefull stuff on the stuttgart computer museum's
server, lots of it not found elsewere. They could market it better.
Try ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/c74 for the earliest
article on a TTL DIY computer,
a strange clockless beast, with instruction mapped on memoryaddresses.
It came/started before the Educ8 and Mark-8.
There is also some stuff on Philips computers.
And by reading the german article on the 4051, you will find out that @
is called "clinging ape" in german. It is "monkey's tail" in
Dutch. So
how is that for useful information !
Jos Dreesen
10:10 p.m.
On 5/28/10 12:52 AM, Jos Dreesen wrote:
There is lots of usefull stuff on the stuttgart
computer museum's
server, lots of it not found elsewere. They could market it better.
Try ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/c74 for the earliest
article on a TTL DIY computer,
a strange clockless beast, with instruction mapped on memoryaddresses.
It came/started before the Educ8 and Mark-8.
There is also some stuff on Philips computers.
Most of the files in the c74 directory have their permissions set
such that anonymous FTP users can't read them. :-(
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
30 May
30 May
1:31 p.m.
So the information on
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/tek4051/ (I've already
I have no idea whether the information is useful (and I do read German).
My machine crashed when I tried to follow that link just now...
posted the link some time ago) is of no use? Funny,
because I *did*
write a working BASIC program to dump tapes into CBM 8050 disk files (I
have that drive attached to our 4051 as you know). But I still have to
transfer these files to some other system... (too much other things to do).
That's a good idea. I might be able to reconstruct that anyway.
I did manage to load and save to 8050 but it was quite difficult,
because the 4052 asserts IFC when you least want it to. I keep meaning
to make up a GPIB cable without IFC.
OTOH my PET isn't going to be the easiest machine to get stuff online
from. I have the SSE serial box, but I may as well use the serial port
on the 4052 expansion backpack...
Philip.
1 Jun
1 Jun
11:14 a.m.
I did manage to load and save to 8050 but it was quite
difficult,
because the 4052 asserts IFC when you least want it to. I keep meaning
to make up a GPIB cable without IFC.
That should be quite an easty thing to do ;-)
OTOH my PET isn't going to be the easiest machine to get stuff online
from. I have the SSE serial box, but I may as well use the serial port
on the 4052 expansion backpack...
Crazy thought... Has anyone managed to porgram an HP9000/200 machine to
use CBM disk drives? It shouldn't be too hard, the worst problem is the
strange scondary addressing the Commodore used (IIRC the high bit is
used, HP don't normally allow this).
I have this crazy idea of saving form a 4052 onto an 8050 disk, reading
that on an HP9000/200 and transfering it to a 3.5" LIF format disk, and
then reading that on a PC...
-tony
5254
days inactive
5324
days old
47 comments
17 participants
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