25 Jun
2013
25 Jun
'13
6:56 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
Date: Tue, 25 Jun 2013 21:49:04 +0100
From: Liam Proven <lproven at gmail.com>
On 25 June 2013 20:07, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
----- Reply: -----
Apparently you missed the words "when I want to"; I'm sure that, like me,
you know many people, especially people like Tony who live in large
metropolitan areas with good public transit facilities and taxi service, who
choose to *not* want to drive and would not dream of getting on a bicycle;
do you harangue them the same way?
Is it just envy because Tony is such a generous and prolific contributor of
generally useful information while your posts despite their much greater
number and size usually contribute mostly noise, that makes you jump into a
discussion about power supplies just to 'pick on him' like this?
For once I have to agree with Tothwolf and his "You, sir, are a bona fide
troll," and an often rude and silly one at that; my apologies to the list
for adding to the OT.
m
Unlike a lot of people these days, when I find I
want to do somethign
that I don't know how to do or don't have the skill to do,my reaction si
nto to give up, but to learn how to do it and to practice until I can do
it.
You have told me that you cannot drive or ride a bicycle, Tony.
Explain to me how this commendable attitude of "I can't do that, so I
will learn" applies to these activities -- daily activities for
billions of people, skills that would be very useful to you almost
every day. 
26 Jun
26 Jun
5:25 a.m.
On 26 June 2013 02:56, MikeS <dm561 at torfree.net> wrote:
Apparently you missed the words "when I want
to"; I'm sure that, like me,
you know many people, especially people like Tony who live in large
metropolitan areas with good public transit facilities and taxi service, who
choose to *not* want to drive and would not dream of getting on a bicycle;
do you harangue them the same way?
Is it just envy because Tony is such a generous and prolific contributor of
generally useful information while your posts despite their much greater
number and size usually contribute mostly noise, that makes you jump into a
discussion about power supplies just to 'pick on him' like this?
For once I have to agree with Tothwolf and his "You, sir, are a bona fide
troll," and an often rude and silly one at that; my apologies to the list
for adding to the OT.
Given that the message to which he was replying was a comment *to me*
and Tony and I have exchanged many private emails -- on the subject of
me trying to pay him to repair some classic computers for me -- I took
his comment as a dig at me. He has often criticised me, publicly and
privately, for my lack of ability to solder, my board-swapping
approach to hardware repairs and so on.
I was merely replying to that. I did not expect it to be taken so very
negatively by all concerned, and I have already apologised.
What more would you have me do?
--
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Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
9:48 a.m.
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013, Liam Proven wrote:
Given that the message to which he was replying was a
comment *to me*
and Tony and I have exchanged many private emails -- on the subject of
me trying to pay him to repair some classic computers for me -- I took
his comment as a dig at me. He has often criticised me, publicly and
privately, for my lack of ability to solder, my board-swapping
approach to hardware repairs and so on.
I was merely replying to that. I did not expect it to be taken so very
negatively by all concerned, and I have already apologised.
I mistook that whole battle for friends chiding each other!
What more would you have me do?
Show up on his doorstep with an offering of a boot-load of classic
skipware? If Tony were in USA, we would inundate him with vintage
crap^H^H^H^H goodies.
Ask him to teach you how to solder
[in exchange for teaching him to drive?]?
(Solder for somebody, and his project is done;
teach him to solder, and he can make burn-scars on his fingers for the
rest of his life;
drive somebody somewhere, and he will be there;
teach somebody to drive, and . . . )
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:13 a.m.
On 26 June 2013 17:48, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
The thing is, I understand that he is absolutely swamped in kit as it
as and has no room to take any more... well, not unless he *really*
wants it, badly enough to get rid of something else. He thought he
would not have space to work on something as big as a 20" iMac G5 and
wanted to come to mine to do it. Which is fine, except that I live a
mile from the nearest Underground station, which he feels is too far
to walk, especially with a toolkit.
Negotiations, as they say, broke down and now I don't have the spare
money. I'd hoped that selling some fixed items would pay for fixing
other ones.
On Wed, 26 Jun 2013, Liam Proven wrote:
I think it started out as that, but we both wound one another up too much. :-(
Given that the message to which he was replying
was a comment *to me*
and Tony and I have exchanged many private emails -- on the subject of
me trying to pay him to repair some classic computers for me -- I took
his comment as a dig at me. He has often criticised me, publicly and
privately, for my lack of ability to solder, my board-swapping
approach to hardware repairs and so on.
I was merely replying to that. I did not expect it to be taken so very
negatively by all concerned, and I have already apologised.
I mistook that whole battle for friends chiding each other! What more
would you have me do?
Show up on his doorstep with an offering of a boot-load of classic
skipware? If Tony were in USA, we would inundate him with vintage
crap^H^H^H^H goodies. Ask him to teach you how to solder
[in exchange for teaching him to drive?]?
The key difference is that I don't want to be able to. I /can/ do
basic soldering, but whenever I tried (in my youth) to build a PCB up,
I fried the components. I'm capable of cables, not much more.
But I hate doing it -- it's fiddly, annoying, and expensive (and
painful) if you get it wrong. I'm more of a software guy, really.
(Solder for somebody, and his project is done;
teach him to solder, and he can make burn-scars on his fingers for the
rest of his life;
drive somebody somewhere, and he will be there;
teach somebody to drive, and . . . )
Well, yes. Saying that, although I can drive, I don't. I have never
owned a car and neither of my motorbikes has run in 5-6yr now. I live
in one of the cities with the best public transport systems in the
world; I don't need to. When the weather's OK, I mostly cycle --
bicycles being something else Tony doesn't approve of.
I offered Tony a free dual-CPU Athlon machine, preconfigured with
Linux. He didn't want it; no schematics, so he couldn't fix it. I
said, don't worry, I'll give you a lifetime warranty -- if it goes
wrong, I'll come and fix it for you. But how, he asked? You can't
solder, you can't use a 'scope. I don't need to -- I'll just replace
anything defective. It's a PC. It's disposable and built of disposable
bits. But no, this is not how he believes in repairing stuff, and
there's no room for a PC, anyway -- he prefers to use internet caf?s
for the WWW. He does not have broadband or a home network, apparently.
I really did try to be cooperative. Thus it rankled a bit when he
commented that if one were serious, one learned to solder, etc.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
11:18 a.m.
New subject: Transportation (was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options)
On 6/26/2013 12:13 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
Well, yes. Saying that, although I can drive, I
don't. I have never
owned a car and neither of my motorbikes has run in 5-6yr now. I live
in one of the cities with the best public transport systems in the
world; I don't need to. When the weather's OK, I mostly cycle --
bicycles being something else Tony doesn't approve of.
Not trying to sound
dismissive, but I truly cannot relate. The day I am
too old to drive and cannot pass the test and thus must surrender my
license will be, I am sure, one of the saddest days of my life.
It's impressive to understand the other perspectives.
I offered Tony a free dual-CPU Athlon machine, preconfigured with
Linux. He didn't want it; no schematics, so he couldn't fix it. I
said, don't worry, I'll give you a lifetime warranty -- if it goes
wrong, I'll come and fix it for you. But how, he asked? You can't
solder, you can't use a 'scope. I don't need to -- I'll just replace
anything defective. It's a PC. It's disposable and built of disposable
bits.
I know it's off topic, but if someone is looking for a good home for a
machine newer than P4 @ 2.4GHz, I could provide one, I could provide
one. Yes, I can buy a new PC, but my needs are not that great. That
said, the current machine is a frankenmachine (the mobo from a Del 4600
stuffed badly into a Dell 4550 case, RAM is maxed at 2GB, as I recall).
More memory would be a blessing for VM work.
Pics of the brain transplant:
https://fbcdn-sphotos-c-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/301324_4432336390840…
My pipe dream is finding some cheap older rack units, as someone gave me
a nice Compaq full size rack (with the smoked glass doors) and it seems
only appropriate that it at some point house our linux "server" :-)
Jim
--
Jim Brain
brain at jbrain.com
www.jbrain.com
2:05 p.m.
New subject: Transportation (was: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options)
On 6/26/2013 12:13 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
I am told that if you have driven (particualrly if yoy've driven a lot)
you don't want to give it up. But if you haven't, you don't miss it :-)
More seirously, London public trasnport is moaned about, but it's not
that bad. London buses (meaning those you cna use with a London bus pass)
cover an araea bout 30 miles by 30 miles. You can get into som nice
countryside (if that's what you like), see buildings almost 900 years
old, etc, etc ,etc.
Yes, in some ways being able to drive eould be nice. I could visit and
phootgraph some of the old churches in the country (to me, that means
taking a 5*4" monorail camera, of course...).
But... when my parents were alive we often went down into Kent. The first
iem, actually, was for classic computer reasons, I was visiting a chap
who had a couple of machines to give away. A Philips P851 and P854. But
the area was so nice we kept goign back.
I don;'t know how much the car parking and fuel cost, but quite a bit.
Now, I stil lgo therte. I just buy a day ticket on the local buees. It
costs under \poundbs 7.00 (say $10). I stil lget to see the old churches,
visit the old vilages, etc. The only downside is havign to setoff from
hoem at 5:00 am.
If ever I could afford to ru na car, then yes, I would learn to drive.
But I don't feel my life is majorly upset by not being able to at the moment.
-tony
Well, yes. Saying that, although I can drive, I
don't. I have never
owned a car and neither of my motorbikes has run in 5-6yr now. I live
in one of the cities with the best public transport systems in the
world; I don't need to. When the weather's OK, I mostly cycle --
bicycles being something else Tony doesn't approve of.
Not trying to sound
dismissive, but I truly cannot relate. The day I am
too old to drive and cannot pass the test and thus must surrender my
license will be, I am sure, one of the saddest days of my life.
It's impressive to understand the other perspectives.
5:07 p.m.
New subject: Transportation
On 6/26/2013 4:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I am told that if you have driven (particualrly if
yoy've driven a lot)
you don't want to give it up. But if you haven't, you don't miss it :-)
That may be. A rite of passage in the US Midwest is getting one's
driver's license. It equals freedom for millions of young people.
I don;'t know how much the car parking and fuel cost, but quite a bit.
Now, I stil lgo therte. I just buy a day ticket on the local buees. It
costs under \poundbs 7.00 (say $10). I stil lget to see the old churches,
visit the old vilages, etc. The only downside is havign to setoff from
hoem at 5:00 am.
One starts to factor the cost of fuel, insurance, maintenance as
simply
"table stakes", like buying food and a mortgage.
It also creates a travel philosophy. Case in point. SO and I just got
back from Alaska this past month. We had an opportunity to see the
sights by train or boat, and passed up both, even though I would have
gotten to relax more than drive. Why? We were not comfortable being on
someone else's schedule. We wanted to leave on our timeframe, change
the itinerary at will, and make unplanned stops. I suspect that someone
who utilizes public transportation would have had far less issue with
those concerns.
Jim
7:09 p.m.
New subject: Transportation
On 26 June 2013 20:07, Jim Brain <brain at jbrain.com> wrote:
It also creates a travel philosophy. Case in point.
SO and I just got back
from Alaska this past month. We had an opportunity to see the sights by
train or boat, and passed up both, even though I would have gotten to relax
more than drive. Why? We were not comfortable being on someone else's
schedule. We wanted to leave on our timeframe, change the itinerary at
will, and make unplanned stops. I suspect that someone who utilizes public
transportation would have had far less issue with those concerns.
A problem does become evident for people without a driver's license.
Try finding a way to move any large object "on the cheap" when you
can't go get it yourself. That's a problem I -- without a driver's
license, due to a physical disability -- have encountered, multiple
times. One's only real options when you can't just up and pick
something up is:
1. Shipping it. ("Well, looks like I'm going to have to sell my
kidneys to ship it!")
2. Paying a friend/acquaintance to get it for you (basically, like
shipping it with slightly less exorbitant fares, and probably better
handling... but only if you find someone willing to travel somewhere).
3. Passing up the opportunity. (Most probable.)
Cheers,
Christian
28 Jun
28 Jun
9:02 a.m.
New subject: Transportation
In article <CAKUYOb1wnh1LZtAJr2NoX4dDdn3UG84Zr2vwehfv_BE2f9=wwg at mail.gmail.com>,
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <captainkirk359 at gmail.com> writes:
A problem does become evident for people without a
driver's license.
Obtaining a driver's license in the US is neither difficult nor expensive.
In other countries, it can be the exact opposite.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
9:56 a.m.
New subject: Transportation
On 28 June 2013 12:02, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
Obtaining a driver's license in the US is neither
difficult nor expensive.
Two things about that:
1. I'm in .ca not .us (so not much of a difference from the US in
terms of ease and cost of licensing).
2. No country in the world will license someone with a severe enough
disability (in my case I only have one eye (that works), and my vision
in it is 20/100). Unless you feel like bribing a public official
(which is, naturally, illegal).
Fun fact!
20/100 vision is so bad you can't get a driver's license (cut off
level if I remember is 20/60), but not bad enough to get a free
transit pass from the CNIB (who'll only give you a bus pass if you
happen to be legally blind - 20/200)!
Yes, bus passes can be purchased, for reduced rates usually if you are
disabled. However, my city's bus service decided to interpret an
Ontario law on transit equality to mean "CHARGE EVERYONE THE FULL
RATE" (that also has the lovely effect of making the CNIB bus pass
useless here). But local bus pass does not equate to a bus pass for
Toronto, or St. Catharine's, or a monthly pass for GO Transit service
(TTC, SCTA, and GO are intelligent enough to not horribly misapply
provincial legislation for profit, but it still starts to cost a
pretty penny to buy four or five damn transit passes). Plus a transit
pass no matter how good, doesn't exactly assist with the whole
"schlepping a large thing from one place to another" problem, which is
much easily solved with a driver's license.
So yeah, doesn't matter how easy it is to get a driver's license,
those with disabilities, but aren't "disabled enough" don't get any
form of help in terms of local and personal transport. And with a
disability that precludes one from ever getting a driver's license
completely removes their ability to cheaply move things (whether it be
across a continent, or simply across the city if/when one moves).
Cheers,
Christian
5:26 p.m.
New subject: Transportation
In article <CAKUYOb1Bz2ZndMmEKd1E2p9TJGKK_4stjWiEcJ1t1ts9M9CUtw at mail.gmail.com>,
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove <captainkirk359 at gmail.com> writes:
On 28 June 2013 12:02, Richard <legalize at
xmission.com> wrote:
Actually you're in gmail.com. So who knows WTF that is in terms of
geography. I did check that before I responded.
...and hence why I stated that outside the US it can be the exact
opposite of easy.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Obtaining a driver's license in the US is
neither difficult nor expensive.
Two things about that:
1. I'm in .ca not .us [...]
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:52 p.m.
The thing is, I understand that he is absolutely
swamped in kit as it
True, and I am likely to be moving soon, $deity help me...
as and has no room to take any more... well, not
unless he *really*
wants it, badly enough to get rid of something else. He thought he
would not have space to work on something as big as a 20" iMac G5 and
wanted to come to mine to do it. Which is fine, except that I live a
mile from the nearest Underground station, which he feels is too far
to walk, especially with a toolkit.
That is not quite what I said. I am not near the undergroud, but I did
offer t ocome by bus (I routinely take a portable toolkit to HPCC
meerings, so gettign it to you wouldn;'t have been any worse). I seem to
recall you could tell me the nmearest bus stop or something. In cany case
we couldn't agree on a time.
Ask him to
teach you how to solder
[in exchange for teaching him to drive?]?
The key difference is that I don't want to be able to. I /can/ do Well, yes. Saying that, although I can drive, I
don't. I have never
owned a car and neither of my motorbikes has run in 5-6yr now. I live
in one of the cities with the best public transport systems in the
world; I don't need to. When the weather's OK, I mostly cycle --
Since I live in the same city, I think that expalins why I don't feel the
need to drive.
bicycles being something else Tony doesn't approve
of.
I have spent my life avoiding unnecessary physical exercise. THat is not
goign to change.
I offered Tony a free dual-CPU Athlon machine, preconfigured with
Linux. He didn't want it; no schematics, so he couldn't fix it. I
I seem to recall that this machine, or perhaps oen of the other ones you
offred me, had some 'issues'. Without schematics, or without soem idea as
to what was goign on, I had no hope of understnading why, and if said
issues could later affect me.
I prefer a slow, reliable, machine to a fast unreliable one.
said, don't worry, I'll give you a lifetime
warranty -- if it goes
wrong, I'll come and fix it for you. But how, he asked? You can't
solder, you can't use a 'scope. I don't need to -- I'll just replace
anything defective. It's a PC. It's disposable and built of disposable
How do you propose knowing which module is defecive iwthou the use of
test equionment?
bits. But no, this is not how he believes in repairing
stuff, and
there's no room for a PC, anyway -- he prefers to use internet caf?s
for the WWW. He does not have broadband or a home network, apparently.
Correct.
-tony
27 Jun
27 Jun
11:42 a.m.
On 26 June 2013 21:52, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
/Run/ the old hardware, yes. But it's a toy, something I do for
recreation and for interest. I actually /use/ newer kit -- not
current, not cutting-edge, because I can't really afford it and
begrudge spending money on IT kit.
E.g. my current machine -- which I have just successfully turned into
a Hackintosh, running Mac OS X 10.6.8 -- is a 3GHz Core 2 Quad Extreme
with 8GB of RAM. The graphics card was given to my by a friend (it was
a cast-off: a dual-DVI nVidia GeForce 250 with 256MB of VRAM). The
only paid-for part of it is its 1TB hard disk; all the rest (IBM Model
M keyboard, now supplemented with an Apple Extended Keyboard II), the
two 19" LCD monitors, their cables, the lot, /everything/ was free.
The mouse was a Yule present from my mum, about a decade back.
My point being, PCs are disposable. I have no interest in tracing
faults down to a component and desoldering it and replacing it,
because this machine has a net worth of about the price of a pint of
beer. It's not worth my time. If it dies, I'll use an older slower one
for a while until another half-decent freebie comes along. They're not
collectable, they're not interesting and they have little sentimental
value. They're junk: when they wear out, they get tossed in skips.
("Dumpsters" to American-speakers.)
Well, I don't like waste, so I take them out of skips (real or
metaphorical), fix them and use them.
The PC I offered you is now being used by the teenaged stepdaughter of
a friend of mine in Walthamstow, BTW. Yes, it has some issues, but it
was a good solid high-end machine in 2002 and it's still usable now
(with loads more RAM than it ever used to have and a big SATA drive in
it. Cost, ooh, about a curry: say ?30.)
As I offered, I'd fix it for you. Yes, by board-swapping, but if it
works, what's wrong with that?
NB: the above question is rhetorical.
The key
difference is that I don't want to be able to. I /can/ do
Oh, OK... Taht makes a lot of sense.
Well, apart from the fact that you do seem to want to run the old
hardware (for all your interest is primarily software). And I regard
soldeirng sa being na important skill for that. Since I live in the same city, I think that expalins
why I don't feel the
need to drive.
Non sequitur.
I don't live in the sea. I don't use boats often. I still learned to
swim as a child and do it regularly for fun.
I have spent my life avoiding unnecessary physical
exercise. THat is not
goign to change.
Then your life will be shorter and less pleasant, and you will not be
able to do things that you would otherwise like to do, because being
sedentary is unhealthy. But it's your choice. Do not try to make out
that this is a good choice, though.
How do you propose knowing which module is defecive
iwthou the use of
test equionment?
By using 25y of skill and experience and extensive practical knowledge
of PCs. I am offended at the suggestion that I am incompetent at my
job, actually.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
12:02 p.m.
for a while until another half-decent freebie comes
along. They're not
collectable, they're not interesting and they have little sentimental
value. They're junk: when they wear out, they get tossed in skips.
("Dumpsters" to American-speakers.)
They are not collectable NOW. Someday - maybe - it will have some value.
I have about $1000 in XT parts, brand new, in boxes. 5 or 10 years ago,
it was junk. Now - dunno why - it has the value of gold.
Well, I don't like waste, so I take them out of
skips (real or
metaphorical), fix them and use them.
I love that :) Last week I recovered a 250GB external HD. The external
controller was fried, and the HD is working nicely :o)
12:29 p.m.
On 27 June 2013 20:02, Alexandre Souza <alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote:
Well, perhaps. I Freecycled all the old PCs in my garage about 3-4y
ago. Pentium 1 and 486s, mostly.
Of course, within weeks, I needed a well-specced 486 for something (a
DOS media-conversion PC) and I'd given it away.
And the guy junked them all. :-(
But the thing is, there are thousands of times more PCs around now
than there were in the 1980s. Also, they are mostly built much more
cheaply and the old ones just wear out and fail.
Yes, I've done that, too. :-)
--
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Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
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Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
for a while
until another half-decent freebie comes along. They're not
collectable, they're not interesting and they have little sentimental
value. They're junk: when they wear out, they get tossed in skips.
("Dumpsters" to American-speakers.)
They are not collectable NOW. Someday - maybe - it will have some value. I have about $1000 in XT parts, brand new, in
boxes. 5 or 10 years ago,
it was junk. Now - dunno why - it has the value of gold.
Yes, I know that feeling. I wish I could teleport all my old kit of
that era to you, but I fear it's going to go for recycling. :-(
Well, I
don't like waste, so I take them out of skips (real or
metaphorical), fix them and use them.
I love that :) Last week I recovered a 250GB external HD. The external
controller was fried, and the HD is working nicely :o)
1:48 p.m.
Well, perhaps. I Freecycled all the old PCs in my
garage about 3-4y
ago. Pentium 1 and 486s, mostly.
Of course, within weeks, I needed a well-specced 486 for something (a
DOS media-conversion PC) and I'd given it away.
And the guy junked them all. :-(
I'm passing thru the same problem here. Luckly, I found a 386 dx 40
yesterday with only half of memory slots pulled (I have professional
dessoldering equipment, so the board is not damaged) which I can use in my
efforts. Ah, get one on freecycles? 286 and 386 computers are running
$200-500 at our local ebay (mercadolivre.com.br)!
Yes, I know that feeling. I wish I could teleport all
my old kit of
that era to you, but I fear it's going to go for recycling. :-(
Why shipping from UK has to be so expensive? :'(
12:24 p.m.
On 26 June 2013 21:52, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
/Run/ the old hardware, yes. But it's a toy, something I do for
To run it at all, it ahs to work. And you say below that you dislike
waste, so presuambly, when it fails you would like to repair it or get
it rpaired.
There are very few, if any, companies that repair classic computers (if
anyone knows a way to make a living doing that, please let me know...).
There are plenty of people who will help out with the diagnosis of the
fault, but i nthe end you ewill have to fix it. WHich means a bit of
soldering.
The key
difference is that I don't want to be able to. I /can/ do
Oh, OK... Taht makes a lot of sense.
Well, apart from the fact that you do seem to want to run the old
hardware (for all your interest is primarily software). And I regard
soldeirng sa being na important skill for that.
As I offered, I'd fix it for you. Yes, by board-swapping, but if it
works, what's wrong with that?
Waht, apaert from the fact it doesn;t work?
OK, let me give you an analofy. I beleive that you are a vegetarian (you
said so at one point). There is absolutely nothing wrong with that IMHO
(even though I eat meat), I fully respect your choice. It's your life,
you should live it as you feel you should.
But how ywould _you_ feel if sombody kept on saying 'Oh, go on, you'll
like this steak'. Becasue that's _exactly_ how I feel when people offer
to fix my things by boardswapping. It is against the way I choose to live
my life.
NB: the above question is rhetorical.
Not so. You said that you don't own a car, you don't need one because the
local public transport is adequate for your needs.
I have access to the same public transport, since I live in the same
city. By much the same argument I don;'t deel the need for a car either.
Which is why I;'ve nto learnt to drive.
Since I live in the same city, I think that
expalins why I don't feel the
need to drive.
Non sequitur. I have spent my life avoiding unnecessary
physical exercise. THat is not
goign to change.
Then your life will be shorter and less pleasant, and you will not be able to do things that you would otherwise like to do,
because being
sedentary is unhealthy. But it's your choice. Do not try to make out
WHo ever said anything about being sedentary?
that this is a good choice, though.
So you can look at a defective maching and tell me which part has failed?
Considerign the number of times I've started tracign a fault in totlaly
the wrong part of the machine, I do not velive it's possible to detarmine
which module is faulty without doing tests. No matter how much experience
you have
-tony
How do you propose knowing which module is
defecive iwthou the use of
test equionment?
By using 25y of skill and experience and extensive practical knowledge
of PCs. I am offended at the suggestion that I am incompetent at my
job, actually.
12:33 p.m.
On 27 June 2013 20:24, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Sorter maybe (which is not nexessarily a bad thing). Less pleasent, I
doubt it.
THis may be hard to accept but some pople hat exerxise. I am one of them
(I know plenty of otehrs). Now, if I did your recoemended <n> hours of
exercise a week, can you be sure that my life will eb extended
sufficienrtly for me to have the same totla number of hours doing what I
enjoy? Of course not. Even if you ignrore accidnets like the fact I could
eb run over corossing the road tomorrow, or might accidentally conenct
myself acorss the mains. Even with otu that you can;t know how long I
will live.
And FWIW, I knew a couple of pople who dropped dead while doing exercise
and know of a lot more. I'll take my chance, thank you...
I vehemently disagree with every single thing you say in that post,
but this is not the time or the place. I have no particular desire to
persuade or convert you to anything. You may feel the same; I don't
know. But if you are trying to, you are failing. :-)
But this is off-topic, unproductive, and quite liable to escalate to
invective or at least frayed tempers. I suggest that we just agree to
disagree.
And if and when I have some spare cash again, I am still more than
willing to offer you financial remuneration if you would be able to
help me to fix various of my 1990s computers. Snag, at the moment, I
can't afford it.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
On 26 June 2013 21:52, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
/Run/ the old hardware, yes. But it's a toy, something I do for
To run it at all, it ahs to work. And you say below that you dislike
waste, so presuambly, when it fails you would like to repair it or get
it rpaired.
There are very few, if any, companies that repair classic computers (if
anyone knows a way to make a living doing that, please let me know...).
There are plenty of people who will help out with the diagnosis of the
fault, but i nthe end you ewill have to fix it. WHich means a bit of
soldering.
The key
difference is that I don't want to be able to. I /can/ do
Oh, OK... Taht makes a lot of sense.
Well, apart from the fact that you do seem to want to run the old
hardware (for all your interest is primarily software). And I regard
soldeirng sa being na important skill for that.
As I offered, I'd fix it for you. Yes, by board-swapping, but if it
works, what's wrong with that?
Waht, apaert from the fact it doesn;t work?
OK, let me give you an analofy. I beleive that you are a vegetarian (you
said so at one point). There is absolutely nothing wrong with that IMHO
(even though I eat meat), I fully respect your choice. It's your life,
you should live it as you feel you should.
But how ywould _you_ feel if sombody kept on saying 'Oh, go on, you'll
like this steak'. Becasue that's _exactly_ how I feel when people offer
to fix my things by boardswapping. It is against the way I choose to live
my life.
NB: the above question is rhetorical.
Not so. You said that you don't own a car, you don't need one because the
local public transport is adequate for your needs.
I have access to the same public transport, since I live in the same
city. By much the same argument I don;'t deel the need for a car either.
Which is why I;'ve nto learnt to drive.
Since I live in the same city, I think that
expalins why I don't feel the
need to drive.
Non sequitur. I have spent my life avoiding unnecessary
physical exercise. THat is not
goign to change.
Then your life will be shorter and less pleasant, and you will not be able to do things that you would otherwise like
to do, because being
sedentary is unhealthy. But it's your choice. Do not try to make out
WHo ever said anything about being sedentary?
that this is a good choice, though.
So you can look at a defective maching and tell me which part has failed?
Considerign the number of times I've started tracign a fault in totlaly
the wrong part of the machine, I do not velive it's possible to detarmine
which module is faulty without doing tests. No matter how much experience
you have How do you propose knowing which module is
defecive iwthou the use of
test equionment?
By using 25y of skill and experience and extensive practical knowledge
of PCs. I am offended at the suggestion that I am incompetent at my
job, actually.
12:36 p.m.
May we come back to computer talking? ;o)
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, June 27, 2013 4:24 PM
Subject: Re: C64 Power Supply Replacement Options
Sorter maybe (which is not nexessarily a bad thing). Less pleasent, I
doubt it.
THis may be hard to accept but some pople hat exerxise. I am one of them
(I know plenty of otehrs). Now, if I did your recoemended <n> hours of
exercise a week, can you be sure that my life will eb extended
sufficienrtly for me to have the same totla number of hours doing what I
enjoy? Of course not. Even if you ignrore accidnets like the fact I could
eb run over corossing the road tomorrow, or might accidentally conenct
myself acorss the mains. Even with otu that you can;t know how long I
will live.
And FWIW, I knew a couple of pople who dropped dead while doing exercise
and know of a lot more. I'll take my chance, thank you...
On 26 June 2013 21:52, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
/Run/ the old hardware, yes. But it's a toy, something I do for
To run it at all, it ahs to work. And you say below that you dislike
waste, so presuambly, when it fails you would like to repair it or get
it rpaired.
There are very few, if any, companies that repair classic computers (if
anyone knows a way to make a living doing that, please let me know...).
There are plenty of people who will help out with the diagnosis of the
fault, but i nthe end you ewill have to fix it. WHich means a bit of
soldering.
The key
difference is that I don't want to be able to. I /can/ do
Oh, OK... Taht makes a lot of sense.
Well, apart from the fact that you do seem to want to run the old
hardware (for all your interest is primarily software). And I regard
soldeirng sa being na important skill for that.
As I offered, I'd fix it for you. Yes, by board-swapping, but if it
works, what's wrong with that?
Waht, apaert from the fact it doesn;t work?
OK, let me give you an analofy. I beleive that you are a vegetarian (you
said so at one point). There is absolutely nothing wrong with that IMHO
(even though I eat meat), I fully respect your choice. It's your life,
you should live it as you feel you should.
But how ywould _you_ feel if sombody kept on saying 'Oh, go on, you'll
like this steak'. Becasue that's _exactly_ how I feel when people offer
to fix my things by boardswapping. It is against the way I choose to live
my life.
NB: the above question is rhetorical.
Not so. You said that you don't own a car, you don't need one because the
local public transport is adequate for your needs.
I have access to the same public transport, since I live in the same
city. By much the same argument I don;'t deel the need for a car either.
Which is why I;'ve nto learnt to drive.
Since I live in the same city, I think that
expalins why I don't feel
the
need to drive.
Non sequitur. I have spent my life avoiding unnecessary
physical exercise. THat is
not
goign to change.
Then your life will be shorter and less pleasant, and you will not be able to do things that you would otherwise like
to do, because being
sedentary is unhealthy. But it's your choice. Do not try to make out
WHo ever said anything about being sedentary?
that this is a good choice, though.
So you can look at a defective maching and tell me which part has failed?
Considerign the number of times I've started tracign a fault in totlaly
the wrong part of the machine, I do not velive it's possible to detarmine
which module is faulty without doing tests. No matter how much experience
you have
-tony How do you propose knowing which module is
defecive iwthou the use of
test equionment?
By using 25y of skill and experience and extensive practical knowledge
of PCs. I am offended at the suggestion that I am incompetent at my
job, actually. 
1:21 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
But how ywould _you_ feel if sombody kept on saying 'Oh, go on, you'll
like this steak'. Becasue that's _exactly_ how I feel when people offer
to fix my things by boardswapping. It is against the way I choose to live
my life.
Okay, I'm curious. You are fine with replacing chips and and far as I
know, it is impossible to repair a non-functioning chip [1], since that
isn't part of the design parameters [2].
So, what exactly, is different with a modern board? It's not really
designed to be repaired, but replaced. What makes a chip okay to discard
(as a fix) and not a board? Is it the scale? Is it your belief that it
*should* be repairable? Because these days, an outfit like Google probably
doesn't even bother with board replacement---they replace the entire
computer (and heck, for all we know, they might replace entire *racks* at a
time).
I'm not trying to denigrate your choice here, Tony. I'm just curious as
to where you draw the line between "swap" and "repair."
-spc
[1] Okay, a pin falls off, it might be possible to fix it. But if the
Magic Smoke is released, then all bets are off.
[2] Even *if* you could get inside a chip, what then? Even if the
"components" that make up a chip were large enough to view without a
microscope, the "components" are practically embedded in the
silicon.
4:16 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Jun 2013, Sean Conner wrote:
Okay, I'm curious. You are fine with replacing
chips and and far as I
know, it is impossible to repair a non-functioning chip [1], since that
isn't part of the design parameters [2].
So, what exactly, is different with a modern board? It's not really
designed to be repaired, but replaced. What makes a chip okay to discard
(as a fix) and not a board? Is it the scale? Is it your belief that it
*should* be repairable? Because these days, an outfit like Google probably
doesn't even bother with board replacement---they replace the entire
computer (and heck, for all we know, they might replace entire *racks* at a
time).
I doubt that. I would guess that Google swaps in another computer (or
RACK), and and then sends the "bad" one to another room to be reworked to
use for the next swap.
Note: I do NOT have specific inside knowledge of where Google currently
draws the line, just assumptions about how they would make the decision
based on their cost(s)!
But, unlike any of us, the decision at Google would be entirely ECONOMIC.
Whick costs more: removal & disposal of old, ordering, buying, installing
a new one;
OR removal of old, repair, and reinstallation?
THAT is the determining factor.
Well, also, the relative reliability of current crappy assembly V
reliability of in-house (or contracted) repair.
I would guess that the situation there HAS crossed the line where
replacing a chip on a board is now more expensive for them than replacing
the board! How many of the same board to be reworked does it take for it
to be more economical to make on-board repairs?
How much larger does Google get before it becomes worth it for them to
establish their own [in China?] repair factory?
Whether you do the work yourself V hiring staff, and your personal
resources and abilities determines where that line ends up.
I'm not trying to denigrate your choice here,
Tony. I'm just curious as
to where you draw the line between "swap" and "repair."
Obviously, there are certain "natural" divisions where that line is likely
to fall.
[1] Okay, a pin falls off, it might be possible to fix
it. But if the
Magic Smoke is released, then all bets are off.
or "dremeling" a clock chip for a new battery?
[2] Even *if* you could get inside a chip, what then?
Even if the
"components" that make up a chip were large enough to view without a
microscope, the "components" are practically embedded in the
silicon.
It still seems possible, just not practical for any of us.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
9:26 p.m.
On 06/27/2013 10:21 PM, Sean Conner wrote:
Okay, I'm curious. You are fine with replacing chips and and far as I
know, it is impossible to repair a non-functioning chip [1], since that
isn't part of the design parameters [2].
FWIW, it is possible to repair certain classes of faults inside ICs.
These would include rebonding, or repair of metal traces on the die, using focused ion
beam technics.
Decapsulation of plastic housing, to free the die, is also possible using some horrific
mix of acids.
It is also very unlikely to be costeffective, and the repaired chip will be very frail.
But I can see situations in the future where this will be done to rescue classic
computers.
Jos
28 Jun
28 Jun
1:12 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
Actually, I am not 'fine with prpleacing chips'. It does irritate me a
little that I have to rpelace a lot of still-wroking parts in soem cases.
I do prefver (as I have said many times) machines built from simpler ICs...
Of coruse ICs can't sensibly be repaired and it is not uncommon for al
lthe circuitry on an IC to get daamged at ocne (e.g. by power supply
overvoltage).
So yes, I do repalce ICs, it doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to repace
indivdual transsitors
But how ywould _you_ feel if sombody kept on saying 'Oh, go on, you'll
like this steak'. Becasue that's _exactly_ how I feel when people offer
to fix my things by boardswapping. It is against the way I choose to live
my life.
Okay, I'm curious. You are fine with replacing chips and and far as I know, it is impossible to repair a non-functioning
chip [1], since that
isn't part of the design parameters [2].
So, what exactly, is different with a modern board? It's not really
designed to be repaired, but replaced. What makes a chip okay to discard
I have nevber let the manufacturer's intentions get in the way of what I
do :-).
For example, I don;t think the motors in an HP9125 plotter were designed
ot be rewound. There are no instrucitons i nthe service manual for doing
so. But I did it. Partly ebcause repalcemetn motors are no longer
avaialbe, partly becasue I'd ratehr repac soem wire than the whole thing.
(as a fix) and not a board? Is it the scale? Is it
your belief that it
It think it;'s more that 'darn it I should be able to fix this'.
There are atualyl 2 aspects to baoad-swapping, soemthign that is not
generally realised. The first is that you repalce a lot more than is
necessary, soemthing that you have already mentioned. But more important
is that people swap boards (modules, whatever) wihtout ever doing
sufficient tests to find out what is wrong -- you know 'let's try a new
video card, if that doesn't work we'll try a new motherboard, then a new
PSU, etc). The problem is that you never really know waht the fault was.
It appears to have been cured, the machien works again, but has it? Was
it perhaps jsut a bad connection? Or some marginal parameter in a part
you didn't replace that works with the nbenewew example of somethign you
did repalce but not wit hthe origianl one. And so on.
The latter problem doesn't apply to IC repalceemtns, at last not the way
I do them. I don't repalce socketed (or otherwise) ICs at random unti
lteh amchine works. I do sufficient tests to know what IC has failed
before I desolder it. Or at least I try to.
I'm not trying to denigrate your choice here,
Tony. I'm just curious as
to where you draw the line between "swap" and "repair."
Basically, I will repair anything if there is any way I can do so. Yo
umay have noticed that 'my' scheamtics for the HP9000/200 machiens even
incldue the scheamtic of the PCB isside the cooling fan./ This is a
simple 120mm 'muffin fan' that you could easily replace. But I include
the scheamtic beacuse _I_ would take it apart and repair it
-tony
2:52 p.m.
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
Heh. Okay, at least you are consistent, which I can respect. Thanks.
It was thus said that the Great Tony Duell once stated:
Actually, I am not 'fine with prpleacing chips'. It does irritate me a
little that I have to rpelace a lot of still-wroking parts in soem cases.
I do prefver (as I have said many times) machines built from simpler ICs...
Of coruse ICs can't sensibly be repaired and it is not uncommon for al
lthe circuitry on an IC to get daamged at ocne (e.g. by power supply
overvoltage).
So yes, I do repalce ICs, it doesn't mean I wouldn't prefer to repace
indivdual transsitors
But how ywould _you_ feel if sombody kept on saying 'Oh, go on, you'll
like this steak'. Becasue that's _exactly_ how I feel when people offer
to fix my things by boardswapping. It is against the way I choose to live
my life.
Okay, I'm curious. You are fine with replacing chips and and far as I There are atualyl 2 aspects to baoad-swapping,
soemthign that is not
generally realised. The first is that you repalce a lot more than is
necessary, soemthing that you have already mentioned. But more important
is that people swap boards (modules, whatever) wihtout ever doing
sufficient tests to find out what is wrong -- you know 'let's try a new
video card, if that doesn't work we'll try a new motherboard, then a new
PSU, etc). The problem is that you never really know waht the fault was.
It appears to have been cured, the machien works again, but has it? Was
it perhaps jsut a bad connection? Or some marginal parameter in a part
you didn't replace that works with the nbenewew example of somethign you
did repalce but not wit hthe origianl one. And so on.
Ah, root cause analysis. I've been currently tasked with reproducing a
crash that is literally a one-in-a-million type crash [1]. We have a core
file. We have the actual location of the crash (dereferencing a NULL
pointer). The issue then becomes---why is that pointer NULL? And this
isn't code like:
do_a();
do_b();
do_c(); // crash here
do_d();
But more like
send_a();
// later
receive_a();
// later
send_b();
// later, different thread
receive_b();
// later on, different thread
send_c();
where each function may be in a different source file, but all the code is
definitely in different functions. Fun stuff.
-spc (I'm hoping that by reading email I will magically figure out what
is causing the issue 8-P
[1] We handle thousands of transactions per hour, with at least one
crash per day [2].
[2] The system itself is redundant---there are something like 100 copies
of the program running, and if one crashes, the monitoring program
will automatically restart it.
27 Jun
27 Jun
2:29 p.m.
THis may be hard to accept but some pople hat
exerxise. [...]. Now,
if I did your recoemended <n> hours of exercise a week, can you be
sure that my life will eb extended sufficienrtly for me to have the
same totla number of hours doing what I enjoy? Of course not.
No, but it is entirely plausible that the expected (in the strict
statistical sense) number of hours you will have available for stuff
you enjoy will increase.
And FWIW, I knew a couple of pople who dropped dead
while doing
exercise and know of a lot more.
Sure. And people get electrocuted, too; are you going to therefore
stop working with mains power?
Of course you're not. Nor, I'd hazard the guess, is pretty much anyone
on this list. I'm certainly not. My point is that this sort of thing
is not a reason to avoid doing something - unless you are already
biased against it and looking for something to confirm that bias.
WHo ever said anything about being sedentary?
If you're not sedentary, you're exercising, even if you don't think of
it as exercise. At least as far as your health goes; it's logically
consistent, but pointless, to argue that "exercise" is strictly just
physical activity done for the sake of its effects on your body, and
other physical activity is something else - it's pointless because then
it's not "exercise" but "exercise and/or other physical activity"
that
is recommended for the sake of your health.
I don't exercise in the "just to stay healthy" sense. But I get a lot
of exercise out of my walking style, my bicycling, etc. (I bicycle,
both because it's the best way I've found to get around the city for
roughly half the year and because it's something I find I _do_ enjoy
doing for its own sake.)
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
28 Jun
28 Jun
1:36 p.m.
THis may be hard to accept but some pople hat
exerxise. [...]. Now,
if I did your recoemended <n> hours of exercise a week, can you be
sure that my life will eb extended sufficienrtly for me to have the
same totla number of hours doing what I enjoy? Of course not.
No, but it is entirely plausible that the expected (in the strict
statistical sense) number of hours you will have available for stuff
you enjoy will increase. And FWIW, I knew a couple of pople who dropped
dead while doing
exercise and know of a lot more.
Sure. And people get electrocuted, too; are you going to therefore
stop working with mains power? WHo ever said anything about being sedentary?
If you're not sedentary, you're exercising, even if you don't think of
26 Jun
26 Jun
1:22 p.m.
Given that the message to which he was replying was a
comment *to me*
and Tony and I have exchanged many private emails -- on the subject of
me trying to pay him to repair some classic computers for me -- I took
As you have made this public, I feel I should put my side of events to te
best of my recollection.
I pointed out at the tiem that due to the UK laws, it would be _illegal_
for me to accept payment, If I did, I would be deemed to be running a
businsss and my workshop would have to comply with all sorts of H&S
requirements. Given the amount of money I could make doing it, it would
npt be worth my while to do this.
I seem to rememebr you then offered ot give me soem fairly modern PC
becuase you felt I needed it. This massin, by youtr own admission had
problems. WQQuite what I need it for (given that I am happy with what I
have) and quite why you thoguth I needed another macgine to fix, given
that I already have enough _intereting_ repair jobs to last several
lifetimes, is actually beyond me. But anyway.
The last straw, IIRC, was that you were annoyed that I wasn't checking my
e-mail all the time and wasn't peepared to drop everything to fix your
machine when you wanted it done. Quite simply, if you want a job done 'on
the cheap' (as this most certainly was, you try finding anoyone else who
would do it...), it's done at my convenience. Before that message I would
have been prepared to make an appointment (which, I may ad I would haev
kept), pack up my toolkit and got o nteh bus to visit you and fix your
machines for free. But the attitude in that message was of the form that
I was ytur servant and that you were doing me a favour, neither of which
I agreed with.
his comment as a dig at me. He has often criticised
me, publicly and
privately, for my lack of ability to solder, my board-swapping
approach to hardware repairs and so on.
My comments, which still stand, are that you do things where being able ot
solder would be a great advantage (unlike me and driving, say, since I
can't think of a time when I need to drive) and I am convinced you are
capable of learning to solder.
-tony
3975
days inactive
3978
days old
27 comments
12 participants
participants (12)
-
alexandre.tabajara＠gmail.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
brain＠jbrain.com -
captainkirk359＠gmail.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dm561＠torfree.net -
jdr_use＠bluewin.ch -
legalize＠xmission.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
rogpugh＠mac.com -
spc＠conman.org