15 Apr
2014
15 Apr
'14
12:35 p.m.
After posting NASA's "open source" program to this list, I decided to
download some of the "open source" software listed.
To obtain the software I had to fill out a long form: "SOFTWARE USAGE
AGREEMENT (SUA)" - which included an affirmation by me that I was a US
Citizen, etc., etc.
After filling out the form and submitting it, a few days later I got a
terse reply: "Sorry it is for government release only".
I wrote the author of the email and said that NASA had said on their
website that it was "open source". The response was:
"Thank you for your inquiry, However, STRS is labeled specifically as
Government Purpose Only software. At this time it is only available
for a Federal Government purpose use by civil servants or contractors
with a contract number. In the future, if you have need for the
software on a government contract, please feel free to contact our
office again for the software."
The author also included the following NASA Software Catalog (link
below). As you'll see, very little of the software posted on NASA's
"open source" site is actually "open source" as we know it! Most of
it
is "US Government Purpose Release". There is a small subset of software
that are identified as "General Public" or "Open Source":
http://technology.nasa.gov/NASA_Software_Catalog_2014.pdf
He also included a link to this site with truly open source NASA
software:
http://code.nasa.gov/project/
While I was disappointed with NASA's response regarding their "open
source" program, at least they pointed me to the NASA software catalog
and a site with actual open source software.
Cheers,
Lyle
--
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
15 Apr
15 Apr
6:36 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Lyle Bickley <lbickley at bickleywest.com>wrote:
After posting NASA's "open source"
program to this list, I decided to
download some of the "open source" software listed.
[...]
As you'll see, very little of the software posted
on NASA's
"open source" site is actually "open source" as we know it! Most of
it
is "US Government Purpose Release". There is a small subset of software
that are identified as "General Public" or "Open Source":
If you have a few more minutes to pursue it, you should file a FOIA request
for the software. If it was produced by or for the government, and isn't
classified, then they most likely have no lawful grounds for denying
distribution of it to you. Saying that it is "Government Purpose Only" is
bureaucratic nonsense; it's either classified or not, and "Government
Purpose Only" isn't a legal classification.
The government sometimes likes to label things "For Official Use Only"
(FOUO), and then try to deny FOIA requests on that basis, but that is a
misunderstanding of the law. If something qualifies for a FOIA exemption,
then it is reasonable for them to designate it FOUO, but claiming that it
can't be released because of the FOUO designation is confusing cause and
effect. They can only deny release due to a statutory FOIA exemption, and
there is no statutory exemption for material due merely to a FOUO
designation.
I was successful at getting some material from NASA by FOIA that I had
failed for many years to get through other channels (e.g., informal
communication with NASA employees). In fact, I got material that the NASA
employees themselves were unable to obtain through normal NASA channels.
FOIA is a very powerful tool, and it's somewhat amazing that we have it
here in the US.
Eric
8:47 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 04:36:51PM -0600, Eric Smith wrote:
If it was produced by or for the government, and
isn't
classified, then they most likely have no lawful grounds for denying
distribution of it to you.
Am I wrong in remembering that IP produced by/for the US government is
automatically not copyrightable anyway? (Although it may still be classified,
as you say.) If that's true, then NASA not only can't withhold this stuff,
they can't even release it as open source, since the whole concept of
enforced open source depends on copyright (accepting all those rules is
a condition of being allowed to copy it in spite of the copyright which
would otherwise prevent that).. So it's either a big secret, or it's
full-on public domain, as in "cross out NASA's name and write in yours
and sell binaries for $100K a copy and no one will stop you -- except
for anyone who did the same thing but for $99K, etc. down to $0".
My understanding of the logic is that even the US government itself
admits it's obnoxiously unfair to seize tax money against our will, use it
to do whatever they want including creating IP, and then tell us we can't
have the IP because it belongs to them and not us. It's beyond me why this
applies only to copyrights and not other things like trademarks (NASA is
weirdly possessive about their logo, which seems equally obnoxious to me).
John Wilson
D Bit
9 p.m.
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 6:47 PM, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
Am I wrong in remembering that IP produced by/for the
US government is
automatically not copyrightable anyway.
By law, works created by the US government cannot be copyrighted. However,
the ownership of copyrights of privately created works can be transferred
to the government. I've heard that they've tried to use that loophole to
claim copyright on works created under contract, but that in some cases
these the copyrights have been invalidated. I can't find any good
reference to that at the moment.
Eric
16 Apr
16 Apr
12:31 p.m.
On Tue, 15 Apr 2014 16:36:51 -0600
Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 15, 2014 at 10:35 AM, Lyle Bickley
<lbickley at bickleywest.com>wrote:
--snip--
Excellent idea. I've filed FOIAs to get papers released from the gov -
but hadn't thought of it with regards to software.
I'm swamped workwise right now - but when I get the chance I'll file an
FOIA - perhaps to get "All" of the non-classifed NASA software
released...
Cheers,
Lyle
--
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
After posting NASA's "open source"
program to this list, I decided
to download some of the "open source" software listed.
[...]
As you'll see, very little of the software
posted on NASA's
"open source" site is actually "open source" as we know it! Most of
it is "US Government Purpose Release". There is a small subset of
software that are identified as "General Public" or "Open Source":
If you have a few more minutes to pursue it, you should file a FOIA
request for the software. If it was produced by or for the
government, and isn't classified, then they most likely have no
lawful grounds for denying distribution of it to you. Saying that it
is "Government Purpose Only" is bureaucratic nonsense; it's either
classified or not, and "Government Purpose Only" isn't a legal
classification.
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lbickley＠bickleywest.com -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
wilson＠dbit.com