24 May
2014
24 May
'14
12:18 p.m.
Hey guys, we're on the next phase of our paper we're presenting at a
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era mainframes
and minis that had CRT displays available for them. We're obviously already
aware of the various DEC models released in the 60s that had them, but
we're looking for other brands now.
If you guys would be so kind to help us out (since we're in a bit of a time
crunch) and share the following, it would be awesome!
Computer maker and model:
CRT maker:
Dot, vector, or character display:
Thanks!
--
Marty
26 May
26 May
7:43 a.m.
Hey guys, we're on the next phase of our paper
we're presenting at a
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era mainframes
and minis that had CRT displays available for them. We're obviously already
aware of the various DEC models released in the 60s that had them, but
we're looking for other brands now.
Just about all of them.
There were certainly graphics units made by the mainframe makers
themselves, but there were also quite a lot of 3rd part graphics units
that could be connected to them (Hazeltine, Adage, etc.).
--
Will
8:30 a.m.
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of
1960s era mainframes
and minis that had CRT displays available for them.
Weren't there accessories, peripherals, and/or third party displays
for just about anything?
Are you operating on the microcomputer mindset wherein the display is a
fundamental part of the computer itself?
9:08 a.m.
On 26/05/2014 16:30, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much". I
notice he mentions DEC but the DEC VT05 was 1970 and that was their
first standalone display. The IBM3270 was 1971. Cheap third party
display like the ADM3a was 1975 or so. I did use IBM 2260 screen on MTS
on the 360/67 at Newcastle, England but I must say it was horrid. These
were available in the 1960s. The Tek Storage terminals were also 1970's.
1960's computing was Cards, Papertape, Magtape and Teletypes.....
... or IBM 2741's if you were lucky....
Mind of course if you go back earlier many machines used CRTs as
Williams Tubes for Primary Storage , and certainly on the Original
Manchester SSEM or Baby the store content was visible.
The Ferranti Pegasus also had a CRT display but it was Binary not
Character based.....
conference
soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era mainframes
and minis that had CRT displays available for them.
Weren't there accessories,
peripherals, and/or third party displays
for just about anything?
Are you operating on the microcomputer mindset wherein the display is a
fundamental part of the computer itself?
--
Dave
G4UGM
9:37 a.m.
On 05/26/2014 09:08 AM, Dave wrote:
On 26/05/2014 16:30, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much". I
notice he mentions DEC but the DEC VT05 was 1970 and that was their
first standalone display. The IBM3270 was 1971. Cheap third party
display like the ADM3a was 1975 or so. I did use IBM 2260 screen on MTS
on the 360/67 at Newcastle, England but I must say it was horrid. These
were available in the 1960s. The Tek Storage terminals were also 1970's.
The CDC 6000 and 7000 series machine had the CRT as an integral part of
the machine--the operator's console was a (vector, character and
graphical) CRT or pair of them in the case of the DD60. That even held
with the CDC STAR, which had a CRT display on the MCU station.
--Chuck
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era
mainframes
and minis that had CRT displays available for them.
Weren't there accessories,
peripherals, and/or third party displays
for just about anything? 
11:49 a.m.
On May 26, 2014, at 12:37 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 05/26/2014 09:08 AM, Dave wrote:
The 6000/7000 series had random access stroke drawn character and dot graphics, no vector
graphics. (Dot graphics is basically a lot of periods...)
paul
On 26/05/2014 16:30, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much". I
notice he mentions DEC but the DEC VT05 was 1970 and that was their
first standalone display. The IBM3270 was 1971. Cheap third party
display like the ADM3a was 1975 or so. I did use IBM 2260 screen on MTS
on the 360/67 at Newcastle, England but I must say it was horrid. These
were available in the 1960s. The Tek Storage terminals were also 1970's.
The CDC 6000 and 7000 series machine had the CRT as an integral part of the machine--the
operator's console was a (vector, character and graphical) CRT or pair of them in the
case of the DD60.
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era
mainframes
and minis that had CRT displays available for them.
Weren't there accessories,
peripherals, and/or third party displays
for just about anything?
12:14 p.m.
On 05/26/2014 11:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
The 6000/7000 series had random access stroke drawn
character and dot
graphics, no vector graphics. (Dot graphics is basically a lot of
periods...)
Damned terminology. No room in the middle. Vector vs. raster.
The DD60 character drawing was definitely vector--and it could plot dots.
What the PPU saw wasn't vector, but the mechanism for drawing characters
inside the controller definitely was.
So not raster, but not vector graphics. Vector characters.
--Chuck
27 May
27 May
10:08 a.m.
In article <53839282.9020706 at sydex.com>,
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
On 05/26/2014 11:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> The 6000/7000 series had random access stroke drawn character and dot
> graphics, no vector graphics. (Dot graphics is basically a lot of
> periods...)
I would call that a vector display. It just didn't give you vector
graphics, but that's probably more a limitation of the controller than
the hardware.
Damned terminology. No room in the middle. Vector
vs. raster.
It's a vector display, just without arbitrary graphics.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
10:26 a.m.
On May 27, 2014, at 1:08 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
In article <53839282.9020706 at sydex.com>,
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
Both, actually.
The controller has commands for drawing characters, in your choice of 3 sizes, at any base
(lower left corner) X/Y. It also has a command to draw a dot at any X/Y. That actually
amounts to nothing more than drawing a period.
The interface to the display has 9-bit buses for X and Y, and two differential pair analog
connections for the character waveform. It also has two wires to encode the three sizes.
The display circuitry constructs the X/Y deflection signals out of the X/Y position values
(via a D/A circuit) summed with the character waveform multiplied by a character size
scale value. So the interface is not capable of generating arbitrary vectors, only
vectors up to +32 away from the base X/Y. Also, the deflection circuitry bandwidth was
low enough that stepping by more than 8 or so pixels (large char size and the max 2 pixel
step generated by the controller) would probably be problematic; even the regular
character shapes were quite visibly distorted. And the design assumed that the base X/Y
digital data would remain constant whenever the beam is on, so you can?t draw vectors by
changing that value on the fly.
paul
On 05/26/2014 11:49 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> The 6000/7000 series had random access stroke drawn character and dot
> graphics, no vector graphics. (Dot graphics is basically a lot of
> periods...)
I would call that a vector display. It just didn't give you vector
graphics, but that's probably more a limitation of the controller than
the hardware.
12:03 p.m.
On 05/27/2014 10:08 AM, Richard wrote:
It's a vector display, just without arbitrary
graphics.
A point of curiosity--who had the first *buffered* graphics display?
That is, where the display contents were continuously refreshed from a
memory buffer. In the old days, you pretty much had to continuously
redraw a display, unless you were using something like a storage tube.
The more complex the display, the more flicker involved.
In particular, I recall that the DD60 on a 6000 could flicker something
awful if it was trying to produce a display from CM and ECS transfers
were going on--the PP simply couldn't get sufficient access to CM to
regenerate a display in a timely manner. A similar thing would happen
if a display was overly complex.
--Chuck
12:50 p.m.
On May 27, 2014, at 3:03 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 05/27/2014 10:08 AM, Richard wrote:
Depends on what you mean by ?buffered?. In a sense, the 6000 series display is buffered ?
the main memory system state it is displaying is the buffer.
If you mean buffered in the sense of a buffer near or in the controller, containing data
that pretty much directly encodes the display primitives, then that doesn?t apply here.
(Well, not unless you?re looking at the ?K display? ? where an application program could
ask for a more or less arbitrary display by supplying something very similar to a ?display
list".)
paul
It's a vector display, just without arbitrary
graphics.
A point of curiosity--who had the first *buffered* graphics display? That is, where the
display contents were continuously refreshed from a memory buffer. In the old days, you
pretty much had to continuously redraw a display, unless you were using something like a
storage tube. The more complex the display, the more flicker involved.
In particular, I recall that the DD60 on a 6000 could flicker something awful if it was
trying to produce a display from CM and ECS transfers were going on--the PP simply
couldn't get sufficient access to CM to regenerate a display in a timely manner. A
similar thing would happen if a display was overly complex.
3:19 p.m.
On 05/27/2014 12:50 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
Depends on what you mean by ?buffered?. In a sense,
the 6000 series
display is buffered ? the main memory system state it is displaying
is the buffer.
What I mean is an attached memory buffer and controller that could
refresh the display without the intervention of the program that created
it. In those days, if DSD died, you looked at a blank scree, not the
last display "frozen".
If you mean buffered in the sense of a buffer near or
in the
controller, containing data that pretty much directly encodes the
display primitives, then that doesn?t apply here. (Well, not unless
you?re looking at the ?K display? ? where an application program
could ask for a more or less arbitrary display by supplying something
very similar to a ?display list".)
Well, we called it the "T" display (we had a lot more displays for our
specific TCM-based system than SCOPE or MACE). :)
--Chuck
2:02 p.m.
In article <5384E178.9020408 at sydex.com>,
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
On 05/27/2014 10:08 AM, Richard wrote:
I'm not sure buffered is the right term to use here. Everything is
stored in a buffer unless you use a storage tube display or hardcopy
output. The more typical term for what you describe above is "display
list" for vector displays and the term even lives on in the OpenGL
API. Once people switched to raster displays, then the term more
commonly became "frame buffer" to refer to the raster memory and
"display list" to refer to a buffer of geometry that was fed to a
rasterization pipeline.
See "On the Design of Display Processors", T. H. Myer and I. E.
Sutherland, Communications of the ACM, June, 1968
<http://cva.stanford.edu/classes/cs99s/papers/myer-sutherland-design-of-display-processors.pdf>
The "wheel of reincarnation" refers to an endless trip around a circle
between a "dumb frame store" where all the display maintenance is
handled by the CPU as you describe above and an "intelligent graphics
controller" (i.e. GPU) that handles all the display maintenance and
appears as a memory store to the CPU.
The earliest example I can think of is in the SAGE system where the
frame store was literally one (or more?) band on drum memory. The
drum memory cycle time was synchronized to the display refresh rate.
You read instructions off the drum and they literally fed the refresh
circuitry. This is dimly from memory, but that puts the display list
in the SAGE system in the late 1950s>
Early GPUs were basically a dedicated CPU to refreshing the display.
Examples are the GT40, where the GPU controller is an 11/05, or
something like the Megatek 6014 where the GPU controller is a Data
General Nova 3.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40>
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Megatek_Megraphic_6014>
Interestingly enough the GT40 has the 11/05 to handle the management of
the display list and handle communications processing and the VT11 board
set handles refresh of the display from the display list. You could stick
a VT11 board set in any UNIBUS PDP-11 and have it manage the display by
refreshing from the display list memory. A GT40 offloads display list
refresh from the main CPU bus and offloads the main CPU from handling
communication to/from the graphics display.
Some points on a timeline:
1958 SAGE display system [4]
1969 Evans & Sutherland LDS-1 [1]
1973 DEC VT11 [2]
1977 HP 1350A Graphics Translator [3]
[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDS-1_(Line_Drawing_System-1)>
[2] <http://manx.classiccmp.org/search.php?cp=1&q=VT11>
[3] <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=169>
[4]
<http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/sage/3-62-0_Display_System_Vol1_Aug58.pdf>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
It's a vector display, just without arbitrary
graphics.
A point of curiosity--who had the first *buffered* graphics display?
That is, where the display contents were continuously refreshed from a
memory buffer. In the old days, you pretty much had to continuously
redraw a display, unless you were using something like a storage tube.
The more complex the display, the more flicker involved. 
2:47 p.m.
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 2:02 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
In article <5384E178.9020408 at sydex.com>,
Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
<snip>
On 05/27/2014 10:08 AM, Richard wrote:
It's a vector display, just without arbitrary
graphics.
A point of curiosity--who had the first *buffered* graphics display?
That is, where the display contents were continuously refreshed from a
memory buffer. In the old days, you pretty much had to continuously
redraw a display, unless you were using something like a storage tube.
The more complex the display, the more flicker involved.
Early GPUs were basically a dedicated CPU to refreshing the display.
Examples are the GT40, where the GPU controller is an 11/05, or
something like the Megatek 6014 where the GPU controller is a Data
General Nova 3.
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DEC_GT40>
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Megatek_Megraphic_6014>
Interestingly enough the GT40 has the 11/05 to handle the management of
the display list and handle communications processing and the VT11 board
set handles refresh of the display from the display list. You could stick
a VT11 board set in any UNIBUS PDP-11 and have it manage the display by
refreshing from the display list memory. A GT40 offloads display list
refresh from the main CPU bus and offloads the main CPU from handling
communication to/from the graphics display.
The Imlac PDS-1 (late '69, early 1970) (and later models) also fall into
the GPU model, each PDS-1 contained both a general purpose 16-bit processor
(similar to the PDP-8 only 16 bits wide) and a Display Processor, dedicated
to processing a display program (slightly more advanced than a display list
but not much). They both shared the same memory, so a very complicated
display slowed the main processor quite significantly :).
- Josh
Some points on a timeline:
1958 SAGE display system [4]
1969 Evans & Sutherland LDS-1 [1]
1973 DEC VT11 [2]
1977 HP 1350A Graphics Translator [3]
[1] <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LDS-1_(Line_Drawing_System-1)>
[2] <http://manx.classiccmp.org/search.php?cp=1&q=VT11>
[3] <http://www.hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=169>
[4] <
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/sage/3-62-0_Display_System_Vol1_…
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <
http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
4:26 p.m.
In article <CADBZjLYMcZZDLa+CG8dxHWj5R35_Yn22VZW6eNwbSDZi6j7O9A at mail.gmail.com>,
Josh Dersch <derschjo at gmail.com> writes:
The Imlac PDS-1 (late '69, early 1970) (and later
models) also fall into
the GPU model, each PDS-1 contained both a general purpose 16-bit processor
(similar to the PDP-8 only 16 bits wide) and a Display Processor, dedicated
to processing a display program (slightly more advanced than a display list
but not much). They both shared the same memory, so a very complicated
display slowed the main processor quite significantly :).
Yeah, I think from the late 60s to mid 70s this was a very common
architecture for low-end graphics workstations/terminals that used
vector refresh displays.
It's not until you get to cheaper memories and people switch to raster
graphics that you get what we think of now as a "classic 80s workstation"
where the "GPU" once again gets stupid and simply performs video
scanout/refresh of a frame buffer and the CPU does all the "graphics".
High end workstations have real GPUs that do rasterization of
geometric primitives and/or pixel operations (bitblt, etc.) that act
as coprocessors to the CPU. They may share a bus with the CPU
(slower) or have their own private bus (faster) to access display
memory. Once the display memory becomes separated from the CPU's
address space, the whole business of coordinating them gets more
complicated.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
28 May
28 May
12:31 p.m.
On 05/27/2014 10:08 AM, Richard wrote:
EDSAC? IIRC, bits in the sortage tanks could be displayed as an array of
points (was it 32*32 for 1K bits?) on a CRT screen. Presumably thsi was
done in hardware. OK, it was not _normally_ used for graphics, but I
heard there was a tleast one program that displayed some kind of patterns.
-tony
It's a vector display, just without arbitrary
graphics.
A point of curiosity--who had the first *buffered* graphics display?
26 May
26 May
2:29 p.m.
The CDC 6000 and 7000 series machine had the CRT as an
integral part of the
machine--the operator's console was a (vector, character and graphical) CRT
or pair of them in the case of the DD60. That even held with the CDC STAR,
which had a CRT display on the MCU station.
Even that much later Cybers (800 series, maybe the big 900s) could
have CC545s ("Cyber Console").
CDC apparently made a "real" graphics terminal for engineering use,
because the DD60s and CC545s really were not high performance units
good for CAD work.
--
Will
4:17 p.m.
On 05/26/2014 02:29 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
CDC apparently made a "real" graphics
terminal for engineering use,
because the DD60s and CC545s really were not high performance units
good for CAD work.
Absolutely, complete with big-screen long-persistence radar-type tubes.
But those were an option, not a necessity. Sometime during the 1970s,
CDC lost interest and the IGS (interactive graphics system) folks moved
on. But the displays were fun to watch. Those were actually driven by
a controller with what amounts to a CDC 1700 mini in it.
Sperry also had a 1960s graphics setup.
--Chuck
10:22 a.m.
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 05:08:41PM +0100, Dave wrote:
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much". I
There was quite a bit actually. The LINC, LINC-8, PDP-1 and
PDP-12 all had vector displays. There was also an add-on for the
original PDP-8 and PDP-6, display 340 or something like that.
These are all DEC of course, Martin might be interested in the
TX-0 from MIT unless it's out of scope.
/P
12:23 p.m.
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at update.uu.se>wrote:
The LINC, LINC-8, PDP-1 and PDP-12 all had vector
displays.
None of those were vector displays. They were point-plot. If you wanted
to display a vector, you had to display a suitable number of appropriately
positioned points. The Type 30 display system for the PDP-1 was optional,
and there was a variant of it that could display characters.
The 338/339/340 display subsystems (for the PDP-8, PDP-9, and
PDP-1/4/6/7/10 respectively) were vector displays.
12:53 p.m.
I recommend a read of "Computer Graphics, a revolution in design"
by R. A. Siders and others (9 other authors listed), LC 66-24180
Published in 1966 by the American Management Association
Dave Caroline (has a copy)
On 26/05/2014, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com> wrote:
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Pontus Pihlgren
<pontus at update.uu.se>wrote:
The LINC, LINC-8, PDP-1 and PDP-12 all had vector
displays.
None of those were vector displays. They were point-plot. If you wanted
to display a vector, you had to display a suitable number of appropriately
positioned points. The Type 30 display system for the PDP-1 was optional,
and there was a variant of it that could display characters.
The 338/339/340 display subsystems (for the PDP-8, PDP-9, and
PDP-1/4/6/7/10 respectively) were vector displays.
2:33 p.m.
Adage Ambilog-200 and AGT-10/30/50 were vector computers with true vector
displays. In fact the AGT-30 and 50 supported a hardware 4x3 multiplier
(implemented with 15 bit multiplying DACs) and did 3-D vectors with depth
cueing. Very unique 30 bit 1's complement machine which was RISC-ish in
design.
Sadly not much info on them survives on the web. They were the first
machines that I ever played Spacewar, Life, Lunar lander, etc. Also the
only machine I ever used that had foot pedals.
Marc
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 12:53 PM, Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com
wrote:
> I recommend a read of "Computer Graphics, a revolution in design"
> by R. A. Siders and others (9 other authors listed), LC 66-24180
> Published in 1966 by the American Management Association
>
>
> Dave Caroline (has a copy)
>
> On 26/05/2014, Eric Smith <spacewar at gmail.com
wrote:
> > On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 11:22 AM, Pontus Pihlgren
> > <pontus at update.uu.se>wrote:
> >
> >> The LINC, LINC-8, PDP-1 and PDP-12 all had vector displays.
> >>
> >
> > None of those were vector displays. They were point-plot. If you wanted
> > to display a vector, you had to display a suitable number of
> appropriately
> > positioned points. The Type 30 display system for the PDP-1 was
> optional,
> > and there was a variant of it that could display characters.
> >
> > The 338/339/340 display subsystems (for the PDP-8, PDP-9, and
> > PDP-1/4/6/7/10 respectively) were vector displays.
> >
>
9:36 p.m.
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 07:22:11PM +0200, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
On Mon, May 26, 2014 at 05:08:41PM +0100, Dave wrote:
Oh. and the Imlac PDS-1
/P
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much". I
There was quite a bit actually. The LINC, LINC-8, PDP-1 and
PDP-12 all had vector displays. There was also an add-on for the
original PDP-8 and PDP-6, display 340 or something like that.
These are all DEC of course, Martin might be interested in the
TX-0 from MIT unless it's out of scope.
27 May
27 May
10:15 a.m.
In article <20140527043603.GA30345 at Update.UU.SE>,
Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> writes:
Oh. and the Imlac PDS-1
Introduced 1970. :-)
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imlac_PDS-1>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
26 May
26 May
10:29 a.m.
On 5/26/2014 9:08 AM, Dave wrote:
On 26/05/2014 16:30, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much". I
notice he mentions DEC but the DEC VT05 was 1970 and that was their
first standalone display. The IBM3270 was 1971. Cheap third party
display like the ADM3a was 1975 or so. I did use IBM 2260 screen on MTS
on the 360/67 at Newcastle, England but I must say it was horrid. These
were available in the 1960s. The Tek Storage terminals were also 1970's.
The OP didn't say CRT Terminals.
The PDP1 had a type 30 vector display in 1960.
The 338, 339, and 340 vector displays were from about that era. The DEC
339 display docs have a 1968 date on them.
Rob.
[snip]
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era
mainframes and minis that had CRT displays available for them.
Weren't there
accessories, peripherals, and/or third party displays
for just about anything?
10:46 a.m.
On 26/05/2014 18:29, Rob Doyle wrote:
On 5/26/2014 9:08 AM, Dave wrote:
He also said ignore DEC but it interests me ....
How many PDP-1's were build? Did all PDP-1's have the Vector Display ?
On 26/05/2014 16:30, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much". I
notice he mentions DEC but the DEC VT05 was 1970 and that was their
first standalone display. The IBM3270 was 1971. Cheap third party
display like the ADM3a was 1975 or so. I did use IBM 2260 screen on MTS
on the 360/67 at Newcastle, England but I must say it was horrid. These
were available in the 1960s. The Tek Storage terminals were also 1970's.
The OP didn't say CRT Terminals.
The PDP1 had a type 30 vector display in 1960.
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era
mainframes and minis that had CRT displays available for them.
Weren't there
accessories, peripherals, and/or third party displays
for just about anything? The 338, 339, and 340 vector displays were from about
that era. The
DEC 339 display docs have a 1968 date on them.
Found the manual for the 339. Looks a wondrous piece of kit. Again any
idea how many were made....
Rob.
Dave
[snip]
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
2:25 p.m.
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer
is "not much".
No, not true. The only one of the big makers that I can think of that
(to my knowledge) did *not* have some sort of graphics unit available
was Burroughs - and I would be happy to be corrected on that.
Mind of course if you go back earlier many machines
used CRTs as Williams
Tubes for Primary Storage , and certainly on the Original Manchester SSEM or
Baby the store content was visible.
I assume they mean some sort of video unit for interactive (or
sort-of-interactive) graphics.
--
Will
2:53 p.m.
On Mon, 26 May 2014, William Donzelli wrote:
Burroughs seems to have made a number of text and graphic displays, for
their D825 machines:
http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Burroughs/Burroughs.Displ…
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
If you are
talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much".
No, not true. The only one of the big makers that I can think of that
(to my knowledge) did *not* have some sort of graphics unit available
was Burroughs - and I would be happy to be corrected on that.
Mind of course if you go back earlier many
machines used CRTs as Williams
Tubes for Primary Storage , and certainly on the Original Manchester SSEM or
Baby the store content was visible.
I assume they mean some sort of video unit for interactive (or
sort-of-interactive) graphics. 
28 May
28 May
2:58 a.m.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:46 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
It is the input console for an AN/FYQ-46 - a SAGE
descendant.
Trackball, buttons, lights.
No pictures on this list! We are stuck in the 1990s!
I think we are stuck period, that device moniker produces this from the GOOG:
No results found for "AN/FYQ-46".
and "No more results." for DDG, so if you can take a picture and
upload it somewhere it would be unique.
26 May
26 May
3:13 p.m.
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 7:25 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
No, not true. The only one of the big makers that I
can think of that
(to my knowledge) did *not* have some sort of graphics unit available
was Burroughs - and I would be happy to be corrected on that.
Happy to update you. Here is a Burroughs catalogue of display systems from 1965:
http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Burroughs/Burroughs.Displ…
27 May
27 May
10:05 a.m.
In article <53836709.8080001 at gmail.com>,
Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> writes:
If you are talking 1960's I think the real answer is "not much".
SAGE vector displays were available in the 1950s.
TX-2 on which Ivan Sutherland did his Sketchpad PhD thesis was 1963.
Tektronix 4002 was 1969; prior to that people were using Tektronix 611
storage tube displays with DEC equipment and other mini/mainframe
equipment.
There were also custom displays. E&S LDS-1 shipped in 1969, just
barely making it as a deliverable in the 1960s.
CRT terminals were available in the 1960s;
<http://terminals.classiccmp.org/wiki/index.php/Category:1969>
I'm sure there are many more, but my most easily accessible sources
via google books don't cover much in the 1960s.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
On 26/05/2014 16:30, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era mainframe
s
and minis that had CRT displays available for them.
Weren't there accessories, peripherals, and/or third party displays
for just about anything? 
10:13 a.m.
On 5/27/14 10:05 AM, Richard wrote:
I'm sure there are many more, but my most easily
accessible sources
http://bitsavers.org/topic/graphics
I've done a ton of research on this topic. I have no intention of doing
this person's homework for them, though. If he's too lazy to use the
the trail of breadcrumbs I've put down, screw him.
10:41 a.m.
On 27/05/2014 18:13, Al Kossow wrote:
On 5/27/14 10:05 AM, Richard wrote:
Al,
Thanks for that link Al, it didn't show on any of my searching. I have
had a quick glance and they look wonderfull. Will have a proper look
when I am back from having my mass checked....
(They call it weight watchers but really its the MASS we are interested in)
--
Dave
G4UGM
I'm sure there are many more, but my most
easily accessible sources
http://bitsavers.org/topic/graphics
I've done a ton of research on this topic. I have no intention of doing
this person's homework for them, though. If he's too lazy to use the
the trail of breadcrumbs I've put down, screw him.
11:41 a.m.
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
Will have a proper look when I am back from having my
mass checked....
(They call it weight watchers but really its the MASS we are interested in)
Do you routinely undertake any activities such that there isn't a very
strong correlation between your mass and weight?
12:31 p.m.
On Tue, 27 May 2014, Eric Smith wrote:
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Dave <dave.g4ugm
at gmail.com> wrote:
What about density?
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
Will have a proper look when I am back from
having my mass checked....
(They call it weight watchers but really its the MASS we are interested in)
Do you routinely undertake any activities such that there isn't a very
strong correlation between your mass and weight?
2:14 p.m.
On 27/05/2014 20:31, Cory Smelosky wrote:
What about density?
Very high, so my wife says...
--
Dave
G4UGM
On Tue, 27 May 2014, Eric Smith wrote:
> On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Will have a proper look when I am back from having my mass checked....
>> (They call it weight watchers but really its the MASS we are
>> interested in)
>>
>
> Do you routinely undertake any activities such that there isn't a very
> strong correlation between your mass and weight?
Several of my activities may result in the correlation being perhaps
slightly less strong than one might imagine, but in general when
stationary its pretty strong...
However it is the mass I am interested in. After all my fatness is
measured by the Body Mass Index or BMI...
When I climb stairs as Gravity obeys the inverse square law at the top
my weight will have decreased by more than the loss of Mass from energy
conversion. Not by much..
I recently visited Peru and reached the dizzy heights of 4700mtrs, at
the height I would expect the change to be measurable, although from
this page:-
https://uk.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20130827162749AAcPfU9
it looks like even at the top of Everest I would only be about 1lb
lighter, so I guess at 4700mtrs only a few ounces lighter. In fact I
don't actually need to change altitude. The force of gravity varies from
place to place depending on the thickness of the crust.
Probably get a bigger difference as I also travel up and down in lifts
due to Newtonian physics...
Looking at this Gravity isn't quite constant...
http://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/Features/GRACE/page3.php
so perhaps at the top of Everest the extra mass of the mountain restores
the correlation...
Then there are tides. The show that the gravitational force of the moon
and sun change the apparent gravitational force...
But again as the ground also experiences a tidal variation does that
compensate for or exaggerate the changes due to change in altitude....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_tide
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravimeter
28 May
28 May
12:28 p.m.
On Tue, May 27, 2014 at 11:41 AM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
OT :
As I think I mentioned some time ago, I was once asked for my weight on a
job applciation form. There was a space to fill i nthe value followed by
'kg'. As a physicist, I deleted the 'kg', wrote 'N' and filled in
my
wright...
Quite how my weight has any relation to my abilities (or lack of them) as
an electronic engineer is totally beyond ne, BTW... In other words, why
did this quesiton exist at all.
I fidn this obsession with body mass/weight to be curious. a lot of
health-related matters seem to be based on the idea that a correlation
implies causality (it does not, of coruse). So even if people with a
particualr range of mass tend to live longer, there is no a priori reason
to assme that if you get your mass itno that range it will alter your
lifesapce.
And (as a high mass hobbyist in the first 2 senses [1]) I haev no
intention of worrying about such thigns. Since I have no dependants, no
close family, and to be honsest few people will miss me when I am gon, I
would rather have an enjoyable life than a long one.
[1] The 3 senses are :
1) A hobbyist who collects comptuer of above average mass, like minis and
mainframes
2) A hobbyist who is, himself, of above average mas -- OK, a fatty
3) A hobbyis who is a practising Roamn Catholic and who attends High Mass.
-tony
Will have a proper look when I am back from
having my mass checked....
(They call it weight watchers but really its the MASS we are interested in)
Do you routinely undertake any activities such that there isn't a very
strong correlation between your mass and weight?
2:01 p.m.
On May 28, 2014, at 3:28 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
OT :
As I think I mentioned some time ago, I was once asked for my weight on a
job applciation form.
Interesting that it was legal to ask that.
...
I fidn this obsession with body mass/weight to be curious. a lot of
health-related matters seem to be based on the idea that a correlation
implies causality (it does not, of coruse).
At the risk of going too far off topic, the actual idea is that correlation implies an
opportunity for control (or coercion). The other is merely an excuse.
paul
4:10 p.m.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
On May 28, 2014, at 3:28 PM, Tony Duell <ard at
p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
It's legal to ask almost anything on an application. They can ask whether
you eat peanut butter, or whether you have red pyjamas, or the fuel economy
of your second cousin's motorcycle.
Of course, if they actually did ask such things on an application, I would
conclude that I didn't want their job.
As I think I mentioned some time ago, I was once
asked for my weight on a
job applciation form.
Interesting that it was legal to ask that.
29 May
29 May
11:53 a.m.
Of course, if they actually did ask such things on an application, I would
conclude that I didn't want their job.
I quickly decided I didn;t want the job in question (after I found out
more about it), but anyway...
Some years ago I came acorss a company that would make rubber stamps to
order, one of their models had 2 selectable messages. I seriously thoguht
of getting one made for job applciaiton forms with the following :
Yes
No
Not applicable
See enclosed CV
Mind your own business
Go fly a kite
It would anwer _all_ the questions o na typival form (even things like
'name' coupd be stamped 'see enclosed CV'). Of course that would eb a
sure way of net getting a job, but...
-tony
28 May
28 May
7:14 p.m.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 08:28:30PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
Since I have no dependants, no close family, and to be
honest few people
will miss me when I am gone, I would rather have an enjoyable life than
a long one.
Maybe more than you think.
OTOH, being in the same situation, I agree with the general principle.
But I'm in no hurry whatsoever.
mcl
2 Jun
2 Jun
1:40 p.m.
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 08:28:30PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
I'm in no hurry either :-). By which I mean I have no intention of
deliberately ending my life.
But given the choice between eating food I like and fiddlign with classic
computers as against eating so-called 'health food' and doing exercise, I
will pick the former, even if it means I don't live as long.
-tony
Since I have no dependants, no close family, and
to be honest few people
will miss me when I am gone, I would rather have an enjoyable life than
a long one.
Maybe more than you think.
OTOH, being in the same situation, I agree with the general principle.
But I'm in no hurry whatsoever.
28 May
28 May
11:59 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT displays?]
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 08:28:30PM +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
intention of worrying about such thigns. Since I have
no dependants, no
close family, and to be honsest few people will miss me when I am gon, I
would rather have an enjoyable life than a long one.
Don't selk yourself to short. Quite a few of us will miss you
when the time comes. I just wonder.. how will we know.
/P
29 May
29 May
12:01 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
Don't selk yourself to short. Quite a few of us
will miss you
when the time comes. I just wonder.. how will we know.
Bu the fact that several days pass with no off-topic, typo-ridden mesages?
Mroe seriosuly, the chap who gets my extate (including my classic
computers) is lilely to inform people . Not that I expect him to have to
do this any thime soon..
But there is anothe issue, actually... Many of the people who I suspect
you think will miss me have actually never met me face-to-face. They know
me by my messages on old computers, HP calcualtors, etc, etc. As as
result if I made any major changes to my lifestyle so that I no logner
worked on such machines, or workedo n them a lot less, things oculd be
very different.
My view, therefore, is that I should carry on as I am doing, even if it
means my life is shorter than it could be, doing that which I enjoy
(namely restoring old computers, amongst other things).
-tony
2:24 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
My best friend died last month.
A few days ago, we finally found his will. THAT means that his
HOARD/estate will not end up going to the state and the bogus "cousins"
that scurried out of the woodwork.
It will be another two months before the courts authorize us to clear out
his house. Is there anybody with enough Micropro experience to know
about [and want?] a PBM-1000?
Howzbout computer books from a quarter century ago?
2XL (high mass) Cabela's shirts?
Flashlights?
The incredible hassles now make me not want to die.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:34 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Thu, 29 May 2014, Fred Cisin wrote:
about [and want?] a PBM-1000?
Howzbout computer books from a quarter century ago?
Quarter century starting from 2000 or from 2014?
Flashlights?
...how many?
The incredible hassles now make me not want to die.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
4:31 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
> about [and want?] a PBM-1000?
> Howzbout computer books from a quarter century ago?
On Thu, 29 May 2014, Cory
Smelosky wrote:
Quarter century starting from 2000 or from 2014?
from now. Mostly late 1980s.
A lot of reference and PC systems programming (TSRs, device drivers, etc.
Mostly pre-Windoze.)
Flashlights?
...how many?
4:38 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Thu, 29 May 2014, Fred Cisin wrote:
Ahh.
a few hundred.
That's quite a few.
Quarter
century starting from 2000 or from 2014?
from now. Mostly late 1980s.
A lot of reference and PC systems programming (TSRs,
device drivers, etc.
Mostly pre-Windoze.)
Anything on the PS/2 systems?
Flashlights?
...how many?
He had a hoarding disorder. In his case, the primary manifestation was
purchasing things that he already had.
Ahh.
When I pick up a flashlight it's either because it's $5 and it's just
1...or I've lost all the others (again).
For example, . . .
http://www.harborfreight.com/27-led-portable-worklight-flashlight-67227.html
is kinda handy. But, buying another dozen when they go on sale, inspite
of already having more than a dozen, . . .
Admittedly it could be handle to have several dozen of those. I could
find a use. I can find a use for most anything though if given enough
time...
He left three focusable lithium-ion ones in my car; I
am keeping those.
Once the courts let us have full access, the executor will have a lot of
miscellaneous to deal with from his house.
Makes sense to keep those. Those are always VERY nice.
He used to buy tools at Harbor Freight. About $100
per month.
If only there was an explanation that simple as to why there are so many
hammers in this house. My grandfather doesn't remember having actually
gone out to a hardware store to buy a single one of them. Somehow he
ended up with ?7 hammers of varying type and styles.
It's gonna be a couple of months before we have court authorization to
clear out his house, and then will need the rivers Alpheus and Peneus
to be diverted through the Augean stables.
Might want to contact a local wizard.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
30 May
30 May
3:04 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
He used to buy tools at Harbor Freight. About $100
per month.
My father bought a lot of tools, but mostly good qualtiy, so I am keeping
them.
There have been many suggestions as to waht you should keep when clearing
out. One of the silly ones is 'if you've not used it for a year, get rid
of it'. Silly becasue there re so many speicalised thigns that I don't
use every year, btu know full well I will need i nthe future.
The sensible one IMHO is 'Keep only that which you know to be useful or
believe to be baautiful'. Well, it's worked for me....
-tony
4:30 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Fri, 30 May 2014, Tony Duell wrote:
There have been many suggestions as to waht you should
keep when clearing
out. One of the silly ones is 'if you've not used it for a year, get rid
of it'. Silly becasue there re so many speicalised thigns that I don't
use every year, btu know full well I will need i nthe future.
I had a girlfriend a few decades ago, who tried to make that edict. So, I
unclipped the kitchen fire extinguisher from the wall and handed it to
her. What was worse was that her version was six months! So, I could
have gotten away with handing her her own winter coat.
["get away with"??!? You don't "get away with" ANYTHING.]
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
10:48 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
I have just been through the same performance. Also in the UK.
The issues are all centered around inheritance tax.?
The government want to grab as much money as they can.
They want everything valued and if the total value exceeds?the deceased's allowance
(About ?300,000)
its taxed. You have to pay a proportion of the tax before you get ?the grant of probate.
Once you have the grant of probate then you can distribute any assets and sell what you
want.
The one to watch out for is property. The value used when calculating tax is the value
when the person died.
If the property is then sold later on then the difference attracts capital gains tax.
Good Luck
Rod Smallwood
________________________________
From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Sent: Friday, 30 May 2014, 23:04
Subject: Re: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
He used to buy tools at Harbor Freight.? About $100
per month.
My father bought a lot of tools, but mostly good qualtiy, so I am keeping
them.
There have been many suggestions as to waht you should keep when clearing
out. One of the silly ones is 'if you've not used it for a year, get rid
of it'. Silly becasue there re so many speicalised thigns that I don't
use every year, btu know full well I will need i nthe future.
The sensible one IMHO is 'Keep only that which you know to be useful or
believe to be baautiful'. Well, it's worked for me....
-tony
29 May
29 May
4:51 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On 5/29/2014 2:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
My best friend died last month.
<snip>
The incredible hassles now make me not want to die.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
Sorry to hear that Fred. We hope
you don't die either, and leave a
grump free zone.
Sympathy to you and his family.
Jim Stephens
4:54 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Thu, 29 May 2014, jwsmobile wrote:
On 5/29/2014 2:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
I second that. You are a valuable member.
My best friend died last month.
<snip>
The incredible hassles now make me not want to die.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
Sorry to hear that Fred. We hope
you don't die either, and leave a grump
free zone.
Sympathy to you and his family.
Seconded.
Jim Stephens
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
30 May
30 May
12:54 a.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 02:24:57PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
My best friend died last month.
My condolences
The incredible hassles now make me not want to die.
I hope I'm lucid enough to clear out before I go to save my
family the trouble. But there is always the risk of going
tomorrow.
/P
6:45 a.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
I?ve actually had to put some thought into this. Because I?m on dialysis, I could die at
any point. Sudden unexplained heart attacks are not uncommon, so I left a recording on my
phone of instructions to be followed if this happens. The instructions are very short. I
have to write this stuff into an actual will later when we start preparations for
transplant.
First, she is to contact John Wilson and ask what she should do with the KS10. This would
probably result in the list being notified and the rest of my stuff being distributed that
way, providing whoever I owe money to at the end doesn?t get some kind of order allowing
them to seize things.
One of my friends is then summoned to wipe my PCs and arrange to resell them.
After that, the last thing is to put a capsule of my ashes inside the head of my favorite
doll, which will then be taken to anime conventions by my friends so I can continue to
attend conventions in costume after my death.
On May 30, 2014, at 2:54 AM, Pontus Pihlgren <pontus at Update.UU.SE> wrote:
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 02:24:57PM -0700, Fred Cisin
wrote:
My best friend died last month.
My condolences
The incredible hassles now make me not want to die.
I hope I'm lucid enough to clear out before I go to save my
family the trouble. But there is always the risk of going
tomorrow.
/P 
10:06 a.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 08:45:23AM -0500, Daniel Seagraves wrote:
I have to write this stuff into an actual will later
when we start
preparations for transplant.
Holy crap! I hope that comes through soon!!
First, she is to contact John Wilson and ask what she
should do with the KS10.
I'm honored! I'd certainly take it seriously (I'm no stranger to finding
good non-scrap homes for KS10s).
This makes me more vividly aware that I need to have better plans of my own.
Right now I kind of picture that if I had enough warning, I'd wheel the KS10
and PDP-8/E out into the driveway, drag the harpsichord into the yard, upload
the E11 source code somewhere, and torch the house. No one should have to
sort through this mess. But I guess I could do better than that ... especially
if I kick off suddenly (crashing, etc.).
After that, the last thing is to put a capsule of my
ashes inside the head of
my favorite doll, which will then be taken to anime conventions by my friends
so I can continue to attend conventions in costume after my death.
Nice idea.
John Wilson
2:58 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
My best friend died last month.
Please accept my condolences. It is always a shcok when this sort of
thign happens.
A few days ago, we finally found his will. THAT means that his
That will help a lot.
HOARD/estate will not end up going to the state and
the bogus "cousins"
that scurried out of the woodwork.
It will be another two months before the courts authorize us to clear out
his house. Is there anybody with enough Micropro experience to know
Having been through this for my fahter's estate the UK law (US may be
differnet) seems ot be that you can't dispose of any part of the estate
until probagete is granted, but you are allowed to sort things out, see
waht is there, and so on. at least over here, getting probate is not too
ahrd if there is a will and the estate is not too complciated.
Incietnaly, I now know why my parentes toelrated (and in some cases
encoruage) my computer collection. They were worse squirrels themselves.
Would you believe I have found empty boxes for long-dead coffee makers,
etc. All carefully stored for some unknown reason.
-tony
4:32 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Fri, 30 May 2014, Tony Duell wrote:
Incietnaly, I now know why my parentes toelrated (and
in some cases
encoruage) my computer collection. They were worse squirrels themselves.
Would you believe I have found empty boxes for long-dead coffee makers,
etc. All carefully stored for some unknown reason.
You need to saye the box, in case you need to send it back.
By the time it finally dies and is no longer going to go back, you will
have forgotten that you still have the box. If you don't have a system in
place to periodically review what you have stored, it keeps accumulating.
31 May
31 May
2:15 p.m.
New subject: bucketkicking [Was: Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT
On Fri, 30 May 2014, Tony Duell wrote:
Except my parents didn't send thigns back. If they failed (even if after
a week), I got to fix them. And my father then did battle with the
manugacturer for the spare part.
Incietnaly, I now know why my parentes toelrated
(and in some cases
encoruage) my computer collection. They were worse squirrels themselves.
Would you believe I have found empty boxes for long-dead coffee makers,
etc. All carefully stored for some unknown reason.
You need to saye the box, in case you need to send it back. By the time it finally dies and is no longer going to
go back, you will
have forgotten that you still have the box. If you don't have a system in
place to periodically review what you have stored, it keeps accumulating.
That was the problem...
-tony
29 May
29 May
7:29 a.m.
Since I have no dependants, no close family, and to be
honsest few
people will miss me when I am gon, I would rather have an enjoyable
life than a long one.
Well, I suppose classiccmpers may be "few people" in the grand scheme
of things, but I suspect I speak for most of us when I say we most
definitely will miss you when you go.
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12:22 p.m.
Since I have no dependants, no close family, and
to be honsest few
people will miss me when I am gon, I would rather have an enjoyable
life than a long one.
Well, I suppose classiccmpers may be "few people" in the grand scheme of things, but I suspect I speak for most of us when I
say we most
definitely will miss you when you go.
Firstly, it would not surpprsie me if I am nto the first clasiccmp to
pass away. Or the last for that matter. Those who go ebfore me wil , by
definition, not miss me.
And see my other reply. You have actually never met me (AFAIK). You know
me by what I post here. So if I made changes to my lifestyle which
changed what I was able to post then yo might miss me even though I was
still alive.
So as I said, I think I would prefer the enjoyable life Ihave now, to a
longer, but less pelasant one.
-tony
1:13 p.m.
[...] I
suspect I speak for most of us when I say we most definitely
will miss you when you go.
Firstly, it would not surpprsie me if I am nto the
first clasiccmp to
pass away. [...] And see my other reply. You have actually never met
me (AFAIK). You
know me by what I post here. So if I made changes to my lifestyle
which changed what I was able to post then yo might miss me even
though I was still alive.
Also true - but also pretty much irrelevant; just because we (FWVO
"we") might miss you under other circumstances too doesn't mean we
won't miss you when you leave us irrevocably!
So as I said, I think I would prefer the enjoyable
life Ihave now, to
a longer, but less pelasant one.
Oh, I would never argue you should let us putatively missing you drive
you into a life you don't enjoy. I would rather you live a life you
enjoy, and I will miss you when you pass and will consider the world
diminished by your passing. (Well, unless I go first and am changed
enough by own trip to the Summer Lands....) And I consider whomever
your life keeps you in contact with to be privileged thereby.
Naturally, I'd like it if classiccmp were on that list, but that is
secondary.
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30 May
30 May
2:52 p.m.
Oh, I would never argue you should let us putatively
missing you drive
you into a life you don't enjoy. I would rather you live a life you
My view is that a lot of medics have got it wrong. They try to give a
person the longest possible life, what they should do is give the person
the most enjoyable life.
enjoy, and I will miss you when you pass and will
consider the world
diminished by your passing. (Well, unless I go first and am changed
Sure. I think, actually, a number of people will miss if if they outlive
me.
If I ahd somebody depending on me (such as a child), then I suspect my
priorities would be different. As it is, I feel I should continue having
the life I enjoy, even if it is shorted than it might otherwirse me.
Incidentally it would not be surpirisng if I died from electrocution.
After all I do work wit hthe mains and higher votlages and while I am
obviosuly careful, things can go wrong. However, that risk is not goign
to stop me from repariing SMPSUs and the like.
enough by own trip to the Summer Lands....) And I
consider whomever
your life keeps you in contact with to be privileged thereby.
Naturally, I'd like it if classiccmp were on that list, but that is
secondary.
FWIW, I _do consider classiccmp to be part of my circle of friends.
-tony
4:11 p.m.
New subject: Length-vs-quality of life [was Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis with CRT displays?]
My view is that a lot of medics have got it wrong.
They try to give
a person the longest possible life, what they should do is give the
person the most enjoyable life.
Ideally, I agree with you.
However, it is much harder to measure enjoyment than length, and the
blame-throwing culture the West has developed very much prefers
objectively measurable metrics when someone might be held responsible
for something.
So I can understand why it's happened.
That said, I do ignore the medics sometimes. I spoke with a dietitian,
once, who told me (and I already knew) that the fat level in my diet
was elevating my risk of circulatory system issues. I had decided that
in that case I was willing to accept a shorter life expectation for the
sake of routinely enjoying food more. I really cannot fault you for
living as you enjoy even if it does reduce your life expectancy.
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31 May
31 May
2:10 p.m.
New subject: Length-vs-quality of life [was Re: Listing of 60s mainframes/minis
That said, I do ignore the medics sometimes. I spoke with a dietitian,
once, who told me (and I already knew) that the fat level in my diet
As do I. I object ot doing exercise. Period [1]. S when some medic
suggest I should do some tp extend my life, I pointed out that (a) you
could not be sure I would not be run over byu an omnibnus as I left his
surgery, and (b) If I did the recomended amount of exercise could be be
sure I would live long enough to have the same number of hours to spend
on things i did enjoy. Of course he couldn't. End of arguemnt..
[1] I have never done anythign that is normally considered exercice. Even
at school I managed to get 'electornics' classed as a sporting activity
:-). On the otehr had, the offical guidelines here do inlcude DIY as
exercise (!) so presumably metalwork counts too. Oh well...
was elevating my risk of circulatory system issues. I
had decided that
in that case I was willing to accept a shorter life expectation for the
sake of routinely enjoying food more. I really cannot fault you for
living as you enjoy even if it does reduce your life expectancy.
\Precisely. If you give up everythign you wenjoy to have al onger life,
it's goign to be a very boring long life...
-tony
26 May
26 May
11:07 a.m.
On 05/26/2014 07:43 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
Are we talking about "essential for operation" displays or "you could
have one if you had the money". As I mentioned before, there were
systems where the CRT display was an intrinsic part of the system--if
you bought the system, you bought the display.
If we're talking about third-party vendors, there were a ton of them.
Digigraphics being one of the earliest.
--Chuck
Hey guys,
we're on the next phase of our paper we're presenting at a
conference soon and are hoping to collect a listing of 1960s era mainframes
and minis that had CRT displays available for them. We're obviously already
aware of the various DEC models released in the 60s that had them, but
we're looking for other brands now.
Just about all of them.
There were certainly graphics units made by the mainframe makers
themselves, but there were also quite a lot of 3rd part graphics units
that could be connected to them (Hazeltine, Adage, etc.).
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