20 Apr
2005
20 Apr
'05
9:36 p.m.
If things had worked out differently we might be
using
ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one
package!
In the '60s I saw a rocket control computer that was used in a high
acceleration missile that was IIRC about 30 cm cubed. It was made up of
layers of ceramic approximately 3-5 mm thick each containing around
50-100 "tubes" separated by a thin 2-3 mm layer of ceramic insulation.
Each "tube" consisted of an Americium cathode, the necessary grids
(perforated plates), and a plate evaporated on the wall of the cavity.
Everything was interconnected by metalization on the insulating layer.
The necessary resistors/capacitors were placed in cavities between the
"tubes".
What made this extremely interesting was that all circuitry was
differential to exclude the common mode voltages that were generated by
the compression of the ceramic block during launch. At that time, solid
state devices self-destructed during the acceleration phase. I imagine
that any "personal" computer made with that technology would
self-destruct any savings one had...
CRC
21 Apr
21 Apr
12:39 p.m.
> If things had worked out differently we might be
using
> ultraminiature electron tubes. Imagine! An entire flipflop in one
> package!
Of course, everyone realizes when I made that little quip, I was
making a tongue-in-cheek joke about foolish ideas and obvious
dead-ends...
In the '60s I saw a rocket control computer that
was used in a high
acceleration missile that was IIRC about 30 cm cubed. It was made up of
layers of ceramic approximately 3-5 mm thick each containing around 50-100
"tubes" separated by a thin 2-3 mm layer of ceramic insulation. Each
"tube"
consisted of an Americium cathode, the necessary grids (perforated plates),
and a plate evaporated on the wall of the cavity. Everything was
interconnected by metalization on the insulating layer. The necessary
resistors/capacitors were placed in cavities between the "tubes".
What made this extremely interesting was that all circuitry was differential
to exclude the common mode voltages that were generated by the compression of
the ceramic block during launch. At that time, solid state devices
self-destructed during the acceleration phase. I imagine that any "personal"
computer made with that technology would self-destruct any savings one had...
... But this is fairly amazing, and I've never heard of it before.
Why Am for cathodes?! Alpha particles instead of electrons? (I'm
kidding there.)Or did they somehow come up with a nasty, toxic an
short-lived way to produce clouds of electrons? Or another way to
lob our toxic waste at our 'enemies' ala 'depleted' (sic)
uranium?!
1:09 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the Americans getting
hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the low-tech electronics they
found?
Purportedly - the Russians were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP
proof.
EMP as in nuke-you-lar bomb (some important guy pronounces it like that!
bizzare..)
Now, perhaps tubes could be EMP tolerant, but they wouldn't be radiation
tolerant,
would they? After all, isn't that how Geiger-Muller rad counter tubes work?
Any mil-space-design spooks out there worked with rad-hard technology?
I've read 4000 cmos is the wrong thing use for your home-made nuke
countdown unit,
but that RCA1802s fared better in early OSCAR and other satellites...
h
"Tom Jennings" <tomj at wps.com> wrote
> In the '60s I saw a rocket control computer
that was used in a high
> acceleration missile that was IIRC about 30 cm cubed. It was made up of
> layers of ceramic approximately 3-5 mm thick each containing around
50-100
> "tubes" separated by a thin 2-3 mm
layer of ceramic insulation. Each
"tube"
> consisted of an Americium cathode, the necessary
grids (perforated
plates),
> and a plate evaporated on the wall of the cavity.
Everything was
> interconnected by metalization on the insulating layer. The necessary
> resistors/capacitors were placed in cavities between the "tubes".
1:30 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
From: "Heinz Wolter" <h.wolter at sympatico.ca>
Sent: Thursday, April 21, 2005 12:09 PM
wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the
Americans getting
hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the low-tech electronics they
found?
Purportedly - the Russians were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP
proof.
EMP as in nuke-you-lar bomb (some important guy pronounces it like that!
bizzare..)
Now, perhaps tubes could be EMP tolerant, but they wouldn't be radiation
tolerant,
would they? After all, isn't that how Geiger-Muller rad counter tubes
work?
Any mil-space-design spooks out there worked with rad-hard technology?
I've read 4000 cmos is the wrong thing use for your home-made nuke
countdown unit,
but that RCA1802s fared better in early OSCAR and other satellites...
h
<snip>
The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did. That's
how they got to venus!
There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid state.
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
1:53 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Randy McLaughlin wrote:
The Russians were right in keeping tubes well beyond what we did.
That's how they got to venus!
There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid
state.
Don't forget with out CRT tubes we would not have TV or Computers as we
know it.
Also tubes still make nice 'home brew' stuff as compared to where
transistors are going.
PLUG --- replace you solid state amp with a DIY tube on -- /PLUG
Randy
www.s100-manuals.com
Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs
other than
clone DEC equipment?
2:22 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:53 -0600, woodelf wrote:
Randy McLaughlin wrote:
Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs
other than
clone DEC equipment?
*somewhere* at Bletchley we have a book (circa late 60's is my guess)
about Soviet computer technology. I'll see if I can lay my hands on it
this weekend (I have a feeling it may be on loan to one of the other
guys at the moment though)
How much of what's described in there is of original design I don't
know. Will see if I can find it anyway...
cheers
Jules
2:46 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Randy
McLaughlin wrote:
Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs
other than
clone DEC equipment?
3:14 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Nico de Jong wrote:
I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called "The
Soviet Bloc's Unified system
of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad) predecessors, like
the Minsk series.
I can mail it to you, if you can use it
I'd borrow the copy for general reading, but with the way the Post
Office has been losing
stuff in the mail, I will deciline your offer. Thank you.
Nico
3:31 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
On Thursday 21 April 2005 12:14, woodelf wrote:
Nico de Jong wrote:
I have a PDF of this paper. Let me know if you want me to Email or upload it
to you...
Cheers,
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called
"The Soviet Bloc's Unified
system of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad)
predecessors, like the Minsk series.
I can mail it to you, if you can use it
I'd borrow the copy for general reading, but with the way the Post
Office has been losing
stuff in the mail, I will deciline your offer. Thank you.
22 Apr
22 Apr
1:23 a.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
From: "woodelf" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca>
>I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called
"The Soviet Bloc's Unified
system
>of Computers". It talks about the Unified
Line's (Ryad) predecessors,
like
>the Minsk series.
>I can mail it to you, if you can use it
I'd borrow the copy for general reading, but with
the way the Post
Office has been losing
stuff in the mail, I will deciline your offer. Thank you.
Ah, insufficient information.
What I meant to say, was that I have retyped the article, and scanned the
figures.
In otherwords, it is available via e-mail
NIco
24 Apr
24 Apr
2:46 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 20:46 +0200, Nico de Jong wrote:
I have a paper from the ACM (1978) called "The
Soviet Bloc's Unified system
of Computers". It talks about the Unified Line's (Ryad) predecessors, like
the Minsk series.I can mail it to you, if you can use it
I found the one at Bletchley that I was thinking of. It dates from 1966:
"A Report on Computers in Russia (First Edition)", by Computer
Consultants Limited, approx 200 pages. Apparently done with full
cooperation of the Russian Government.
It's got fantastic sections on all types of Russian computer equipment
(including calculators and punched card equipment), with a handful of
pages given to each machine within each section.
It looks like the report was done for the (perceived) benefit of the
Russian and UK Governments (and to some extent the US) by Computer
Consultants, and so as it stands I suspect there's no way for anyone who
doesn't already have one to get hold of a copy.
Having said that, it's hole-punched and held together with a metal
clasp. Someone with a scanner and ADF could probably whizz through it
pretty quickly (although the pages are somewhat dog-eared at the edges).
cheers
Jules
Randy McLaughlin wrote:
Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs
other than
clone DEC equipment?
21 Apr
21 Apr
4:11 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Hi,
Jules Richardson said:
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 11:53 -0600, woodelf wrote:
MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely original,
but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in my previous mail,
I've just finished reading it, very interesting...
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
Randy McLaughlin wrote:
Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small computer designs
other than
clone DEC equipment?
*somewhere* at Bletchley we have a book (circa late 60's is my guess)
about Soviet computer technology. I'll see if I can lay my hands on it
this weekend (I have a feeling it may be on loan to one of the other
guys at the moment though)
How much of what's described in there is of original design I don't
know. Will see if I can find it anyway...
cheers
Jules
22 Apr
22 Apr
3:04 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
>>>> "Stan" == Stan Barr
<stanb at dial.pipex.com> writes:
Stan> MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely
Stan> original, but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in
Stan> my previous mail, I've just finished reading it, very
Stan> interesting...
Have you seen any references to "Sigma" or "Ruta", or an organization
named "STIMTI"?
paul
3:59 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Hi,
Paul Koning said:
No. A quick scan through the Russian chapter in the book didn't throw
up any references either.
Incidentally, the SETUN computer used ternary logic using ferrite cores
magnetised in either direction or not magnetized at all to give the
three levels. There can't have been many similar designs.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
>>>> "Stan" == Stan Barr <stanb at dial.pipex.com> writes:
Stan> MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely
Stan> original, but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in
Stan> my previous mail, I've just finished reading it, very
Stan> interesting...
Have you seen any references to "Sigma" or "Ruta", or an
organization
named "STIMTI"? 
4:58 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Stan Barr wrote:
Title, please?
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
[ Old computing resources for business || Buy/Sell/Trade Vintage Computers ]
[ and academia at www.VintageTech.com || at http://marketplace.vintage.org ]
Stan>
MESM, M-1, STRELA, SETUN, and ELBRUS seem to have been largely
Stan> original, but they were big iron. See the book I mentioned in
Stan> my previous mail, I've just finished reading it, very
Stan> interesting...
Have you seen any references to "Sigma" or "Ruta", or an
organization
named "STIMTI"?
No. A quick scan through the Russian chapter in the book didn't throw
up any references either.
Incidentally, the SETUN computer used ternary logic using ferrite cores
magnetised in either direction or not magnetized at all to give the
three levels. There can't have been many similar designs.
23 Apr
23 Apr
3:55 a.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Hi,
Sellam said:
On Fri, 22 Apr 2005, Stan Barr wrote:
Electronic Brains / Stories from the Dawn of the Computer Age
Auth: Mike Hally
Publ: BBC/Granta Books, London 2005
ISBN: 1 86207 6634
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
No. A quick scan through the Russian chapter in the book didn't throw
up any references either.
Title, please?
21 Apr
21 Apr
2:40 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
>>>> "woodelf" == woodelf
<bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes:
woodelf> Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small
woodelf> computer designs other than clone DEC equipment?
I think maybe so. I have a brochure from "STIMTI" in Vilnius,
describing their work starting in 1959. Neither my russian nor my
lithuanian are any good, but I can make out some comments about design
of magnetic disk systems. Possibly also computers back to the early
1970s if not sooner.
Later on they did make a VAX clone, though you can't tell that from
the writeup.
paul
2:45 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
In message <4267E8AD.1080104 at jetnet.ab.ca>
woodelf <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> wrote:
Now back to the USSR ... Did Russia ever do any small
computer designs
other than
clone DEC equipment?
Speaking of which...
<http://microscopy.fsu.edu/creatures/pages/russians.html>
"VAX: When you care enough to steal the very best" :)
Later.
--
Phil. | Acorn Risc PC600 Mk3, SA202, 64MB, 6GB,
philpem at philpem.me.uk | ViewFinder, 10BaseT Ethernet, 2-slice,
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | 48xCD, ARCINv6c IDE, SCSI
... Take care of the pennies and the Inland Revenue will take care of the rest.
2:43 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Hi,
Heinz Wolter said:
There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be
done in solid state.
See http://stellardisplay.com/fullStory3.htm for example...
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
9:15 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can be
done in solid state.
Not anymore.
Tubes have finally had their day. Listening to the radio from a station
with a high power solid state transmitter, looking at a Sony flat screen
while typing this...its over, folks.
And I am NOT going to listen to the audio guy chime in.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
22 Apr
22 Apr
9:42 a.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
>>>> "William" == William
Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> writes:
> There are many areas tubes go well beyond what can
be done in
> solid state.
William> Not anymore.
William> Tubes have finally had their day. Listening to the radio
William> from a station with a high power solid state transmitter,
William> looking at a Sony flat screen while typing this...its over,
William> folks.
Close but not quite.
Every microwave oven has a tube in it.
If you need more than a few kilowatts of power, especially at UHF or
above, you're probably going to be using tubes. Those might be plain
old 4CX15,000s, or -- for a megawatt or so at microwave frequencies --
6 foot tall klystrons.
paul
11:19 a.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
If you need more than a few kilowatts of power,
especially at UHF or
above, you're probably going to be using tubes. Those might be plain
old 4CX15,000s, or -- for a megawatt or so at microwave frequencies --
6 foot tall klystrons.
Like I said before - not anymore.
Let it go, man, let it go...
William Donzelli
aw288 at osgn.org
11:46 a.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
On Thu, 2005-04-21 at 21:15 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
Do LCD screens still blow pixels after a couple of years? That'd be my
only reservation compared to a traditional CRT.
Mind you, I like this 21" CRT in front of me - there's plenty of flat
space on top (not covering the vents :) on which to balance urgent
stuff. Can't do that with a flat screen, so nerrrr! ;-)
There are many
areas tubes go well beyond what can be done in solid state.
Not anymore.
Tubes have finally had their day. Listening to the radio from a station
with a high power solid state transmitter, looking at a Sony flat screen
while typing this...its over, folks.
12:27 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
Do LCD screens still blow pixels after a couple of
years? That'd be my
only reservation compared to a traditional CRT.
I'd rather blow a pixel than a whole gun...
I actually still like a tube in front of me, but damn, these
new(ish) flatscreens are nice.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
1:09 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
On Fri, 2005-04-22 at 12:27 -0400, William Donzelli wrote:
Sure... the actual CRT seems to typically to be the last thing to fail
though; power supplies usually blow up first.
Mind you, a CRT usually gets a little tired after a few years. I'm not
sure how long its "good" lifetime compares to that of an LCD panel
though, but my impression is that the CRT will likely outlive the LCD
before replacement's necessary.
Do LCD screens
still blow pixels after a couple of years? That'd be my
only reservation compared to a traditional CRT.
I'd rather blow a pixel than a whole gun... I actually still like a tube in front of me, but damn,
these new(ish) flatscreens are nice.
Do they still suffer from a *really* narrow viewing angle (such as found
with old laptops)? I tend to sit in all sorts of strange positions
depending on how hard I need to concentrate, which might put me off an
LCD if I had to keep on tweaking the settings (at the moment I'm sort of
side-on to the screen with my feet up on the desk...)
cheers
J.
21 Apr
21 Apr
1:38 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
>>>> "Heinz" == Heinz Wolter
<h.wolter at sympatico.ca> writes:
Heinz> wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the Americans
Heinz> getting hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the
Heinz> low-tech electronics they found? Purportedly - the Russians
Heinz> were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP proof. ...
Heinz> Now, perhaps tubes could be EMP tolerant, but they wouldn't be
Heinz> radiation tolerant, would they? After all, isn't that how
Heinz> Geiger-Muller rad counter tubes work?
G-M tubes are gas filled, and have very thin envelopes. The basic
mechanism is that radiation ionizes the gas, and the electric field is
large enough that an avalanche results, producing a current pulse.
Vacuum tubes don't do that because there's no gas in side. Also,
alpha particles won't go through the glass (it's much too thick).
Betas might, but so what -- those are electrons. Gammas are photons,
they won't do a thing unless they hit an electrode, in which case you
might get some electrons, again no big deal.
paul
9:17 p.m.
New subject: tube technology and EMP
wasn't there some urban-tech legend about the
Americans getting
hold of a Cuban MIG fighter and laughing at the low-tech electronics they
found?
Purportedly - the Russians were using tubes! ..that are claimed to be EMP
proof.
Yes, I had some 1970s and 80s era nav equipment out of a MiG, and it was
tubed. Neat stuff, but I sold it off.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
1:44 p.m.
Tom Jennings wrote:
Why Am for cathodes?! Alpha particles instead of electrons? (I'm
kidding there.)Or did they somehow come up with a nasty, toxic an
short-lived way to produce clouds of electrons? Or another way to
lob our toxic waste at our 'enemies' ala 'depleted' (sic)
uranium?!
Be resonable -- it most likely was for a NUKE missile ... .00000000001
megatons
of more explosive power -- better than the OTHER SIDE.
7026
days inactive
7029
days old
28 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
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aw288＠osfn.org -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
cctalk＠randy482.com -
h.wolter＠sympatico.ca -
julesrichardsonuk＠yahoo.co.uk -
lbickley＠bickleywest.com -
nico＠FARUMDATA.DK -
philpem＠dsl.pipex.com -
pkoning＠equallogic.com -
stanb＠dial.pipex.com -
technobug＠comcast.net -
tomj＠wps.com -
vcf＠siconic.com