In article <200604182326350573.791734B2 at 10.0.0.252>, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes: VT-11 (I think) and HP 1350A/1351A drove X-Y displays, yes. But I think you guys missed the point...I wasn't asking for what is the earliest known graphics display output device; I already know about Whirlwind and SAGE. I know I'm not the only one with graphical display output devices in my collection. What's the oldest graphical display output device in your collection? -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

William Donzelli wrote: That sounds incredibly cool - any chance of any photos? (You know me - graphics systems and mechanical systems are my main interests, so that thing sounds ideal :-) cheers Jules

John Allain wrote: I have a collection of real lead pencils from the eighteenth century along with a couple of (unfortunately broken) vintage quill pens. Peace... Sridhar

In article <006601c663b9$0a831460$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>, "John Allain" <allain at panix.com> writes: Its not a display, doesn't count :-). *ouch* That would have been sweet, but the logistics are obviously a challenge. *also ouch* Apollos seem pretty rare now! What's a 5100? West, that's within driving distance at least (I'm in Salt Lake City). I love starting threads like this because I always learn something. I didn't know about the Imlac! Now I'll add it to the list of systems I need to learn more about and hopefully acquire. What's LPS? Agreed. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

On Wed, 19 Apr 2006, John Allain wrote: 1975. No, there wasn't graphics in APL, but there were the so called Print/Plot routines for both BASIC and APL that allowed to plot graphs and text on the 5103 printer. I have the software and manuals somewhere. Christian

5100 isn't really PC line. I spent hours in the manuals back 35 years ago to reach the conclusion that some kind of subcharacter plotting was available in 5100 APL. Now I have neither the manuals nor the machine so I can't prove anything. It's possible that an 'Advanced 5100 BASIC' manual told of some kind of dot matrix printing too, and that manual just wasn't in that lab with the computer. John A.

In article <20060420135155.J1180 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> writes: Is the 5100 the RT RISC-based one? I remember seeing one of those at udel in the 82-86 time frame and I recall it had windowing, bitmap graphics, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

In article <444808BC.3050209 at gmail.com>, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> writes: Oh, OK, wrong again about IBM equipment :-). I confess that I really know next to nothing about IBM gear. I see from a followup message that the 5100 did not have graphics capability, only character display. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

On 4/20/2006 at 3:33 PM Fred Cisin wrote: Not exactly, close though. I can recall seeing the IBM announcement in Datamation right about at the same time that Intel was rolling out the 8080. I got to see a 5100 up close at NCC, I think in 1976 or so. IBM had all the external doodads hooked to one and was showing it off and getting about the same reception as day-old pancakes from the crowd. I could not believe the little bitty screen on it and wondered how any human was expected to use such a thing. Of course, I wondered the same thing when I saw one of the first Osborne 1's spread out on a tabletop at Sorcim (no case yet). "You can't be serious," said I. "Who the heck is going to want to peer at that little screen?" Richard Frank assured me that he didn't see it as a problem. With my bad eyesight, I just didn't see it at all. Cheers, Chuck

On Thu, 20 Apr 2006, Fred Cisin wrote: And my site (there's also a link on Eric's site) for those who are interested in the system internals: http://computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/ibm_5110/technik/en/index.html CS/9000. I'd really like to have one... Christian

I do have a 1971 Tektronix RM503, as used for vector graphics display in older DEC pdp systems. http://www.bunkerofdoom.com/kd5oei/anatest1/nasa_RM503_20060406.jpg

In article <20060419142843.S42805 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> writes: Sheesh. I know this list likes to take things off-topic at the drop of a hat, but this is a little extreme. In my first call for responses I clearly stated I was talking about and it very clearly had nothing to do with fountain pens. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

On 4/19/2006 at 3:59 PM Fred Cisin wrote: Well, maybe LEDs and lightbulbs. Come to think of it, how about people? http://1stopkorea.com/index.htm?nk-trip5.htm~mainframe http://www.asiapacificms.com/articles/pixel_people/

On 4/21/2006 at 7:09 PM Patrick Jankowiak wrote: Folks are still building those beasts, Nipkov disks and all: http://www.sptv.demon.co.uk/nbtv/index.html Well, now we're getting somewhere! Would a mirror galvanometer qualify as a vector display? A Duddell oscillograph? An ondograph? That would put the technology well into the 19th century. And the gizmos used by Helmholtz to generate waveform patterns might even be construed as graphical display devices.... Cheers, Chuck

I have a high speed scanner from a 405 line mechanical scan TV, from around 1938: www.g1jbg.co.uk/tv1.htm Not computer related, but interesting in its own right. Jim.

On 4/22/2006 at 10:41 PM woodelf wrote: Do you mean that you couldn't do field-sequential color using this device? It seems that all one would need would be color wheels at either end of the process... Cheers, Chuck (Who remembers the very-short lived CBS system. I remember passing up a wooden crate full of color wheels many years ago for practically nothing. If you could stand the flicker, the CBS system gave very good color compared to NTSC).

I think one of the main problems with the sequential colour system was that it was incompatible -- in both directions -- with existing monochrome TV. One of the requirements (IIRC) for a colour TV system was that colour sets should show monochrome programmes correctly and that monochrome TV sets should show colour programmes as a grey-scale. -tony

From: "woodelf" <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> around Yes, I need to update that page - when I wrote it I didn't fully understand the Jefferies cell. I have recently acquired a number of early 30's "Television and Shortwave Review" magazines (1934 to 1939), which have a lot of articles about the Scophony system, which I need to scan and add to the page. The rapid need for RADAR progress pushed CRT technology on at a fantastic rate, such that the need for mechanical scan and high intensity light source was replaced by the daylight-view CRT by the end of the war, and projection CRTs were available (Skiatron?), reliable projection TV sets made there appearance in the UK shortly after WW2 (using a 2.5" tube with a 25KV EHT, and a very clever optical unit). Jim.

In article <20060419155724.O49091 at shell.lmi.net>, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> writes: As I said in the first post: "graphics display system" is anything that creates a graphics image with a display: calligraphic, storage tube, plasma, raster, etc. Block character graphics don't count (or I would include my Commodore CBM 8032 and all the stupid terminals :). Fountain pens, smeared chocolate on paper and all other sorts of nonsense clearly doesn't fit the definition. Oh wait, I guess I mistook this list for discussion of classic computing, sorry! -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_display> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calligraphic_projection> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vector_graphics> Next you'll be asking me to define what I mean by "binary". -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ: <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/> Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty <http://pilgrimage.scene.org>

woodelf wrote: Just make sure you don't do it on your shoes.

Cameron Kaiser wrote: There are 5 types of people: those who can count, and those who can't.

On 4/21/06, Doug Salot <doug at blinkenlights.com> wrote: Nice. If anyone on the list has one of the later, TTL-based M-series module logic trainers, I'd love to see a couple photos of this level of detail. My stepdad's mother, a school teacher in a nearby town, gave me the teacher's guide to the later unit when I was in Jr. High (after I'd started playing with PETs and Elfs, etc). I've seen pictures of the outside of that later unit, but not the inside. -ethan

Hi, Richard said: And it depends what you mean by "graphics". Edsac (1949) could display primitive graphics on a 32x16 pixel 2-colour display. OXO, a Tic-Tac-Toe program by A S Douglas in 1952, displayed the moves graphically. But I doubt if anyone in the group has an EDSAC! -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

Hi, Richard said: It was a crt with high-intensity dots and low-intensity dots. The dots represented the data circulating in the mercury tank memory. It wasn't long before people discovered it could be used for crude graphics as well as its intended purpose! Download an emulator and see it for yourself: http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~edsac/ It's a fun machine to write programs for. -- Cheers, Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com The future was never like this!

My plotters are rather later, and tend to use fibre-tipped pens :-( To add some useful (?) content to this message, a Rotring Rapidograph pen (with the barrel removed) will screw into the pen carriage on a Tektronix 4661 or 4662 plotter. Use the threads on the pen that normally hold the cap, of course. -tony

John wrote.... Now THATS funny, I don't care who ya' are. Jay

At 8:45 AM -0700 4/19/06, Doug Salot wrote: I can confirm that we (JPL Computer Graphics Lab) used a PS-2 in mid '70s to mid '80s time frame. Doug's recollection feels about right to me, though I don't have documentation to support it. <http://dundas-mac.caltech.edu/~dundas/blinn-1.png> Just for fun, here's a link to a scan of a proof picture of our lab at the time. From left to right: Sylvie Rueff, Jim Blinn (yes, that one) Jeff Goldsmith, me (much younger then). Behind Sylvie is our slide and Polaroid printer, Jim is pointing at the frame buffer (probably a Ramtek or similar) display, a Teleray T1051 terminal can be seen behind him, as well as the keyboard and knobs and switches for the PS-2, the PS-2 and it's monitor are behind the glass in the machine room behind us. John

On 4/19/2006 at 4:57 PM Jules Richardson wrote: etc. Didn't someone have a scheme for hooking up an Etch-A-Sketch to a system? This would probably be back in the S-100 days, but I seem to recall a magazine article about it. Now THAT's interesting... Cheers, Chuck

I'll propose 4 canditates from my collection for having interesting hardware designs : HP1350 Grpahics Translator. It's all random logic, no processor. Strange... PERQ 1 (and all later classic PERQs). It has a graphics processor (the 'rasterop machine') that's integrated with the main CPU. The CPU's data path calculates the memory addresses for individual graphics words, there's a little pipeline that does a read-modify-write on words from memory (fetched in groups of 4, for hardware reasons), said pipeline shifts to align corresponding pixels in source and destination words,combines those bits that are within the area to be changed, and shoves the result back into memory PPL video hard disk. This is a head-per-track Winchester which rotates at video frame rate. RGB video is stored on 3 tracks of thr disk using analogue FM recording. I have a Unibus interface to store an image on this disk I2S image processor/display systems. I will have to dig out the manuals to get the exact architecture, but from what I remember, it has several byteplanes (each 512*512 bytes), the outputs of which go to progammable lookup tables, the output of those go to a multiple-input full adder, the output of that to more lookup tables, and then to the DACs. By suitable programming of the tables you can combine the byteplanes in just about any way you like. Add to that a hardware cursor (controlled by trackball or tablet), a pixel histogramming board, the feedback ALU (planes 0 and 1 are treated as a 16 bit accumulator, you can combine the contents of that with any other plane and write the result back to the accumulator). It's one complicated machines (one of mine has over 3 thousand DRAM chips, and as many TTL devices...) -tony

Tony Duell wrote: I'll add to that the Quad-X and the Torch/Primagraphics workstation, which tend to be few and far between (not that there seem to be many Triple-X machines about these days - considering that lots were built, I don't know where they all went to) Hmm, didn't Trident release service information for their early (S)VGA boards (something like the 8900 boards)? Still custom logic on there that can fail I suppose, but it's a start... (out of interest, did IBM release full service information for their VGA card?) cheers Jules

Doesn't that have core memory. My stepmother hand threaded core for Hughes in the late 1950s and early 60s. To be on topic the earlest Graphics system I have in my collection currently would be an Apolo 570. Although I have had lots of earlier systems go through my hands in the 1990s. We hauled a truckload back to PDX from the last Calma auction in '88 or '89. -- Paxton Hoag Astoria, OR USA

No core memory, the electron beam writes through a dielectric mesh to the phosphor coating, leaving a charge on the mesh. If the storage mode is on, a flood gun illuminates the entire backside of the dielectric, and the charges on the previously written areas allow more of the electrons through to the phosphor than on the uncharged areas thereby keeping an image of the charged area on the screen, and at the same time replentishing the charged areas on the dielectric mesh. The manual says it can be held 'indefinitely' but cautions leaving it for more than an hour lest the mesh acquire such a charge that it could take a day to discharge and recover. It's a strictly analog regenerative memory. Patrick Paxton Hoag wrote: