On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 1:41 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: That would be a handy product, but as discussions of same have pointed out on this list, it's not as easy of a target (no pun intended) because it involves analog sampling/synthesis at high (5MHz) rates and a plethora of on-disk formats. Not impossible, but nowhere near as easy as sampling an 8-bit bus with handshaking and a defined command set. With classic hosts, the rate tops out around 2M transactions/sec and is often quite a bit lower than that (PIO SCSI interfaces for the Amiga, for example). -ethan

Well, I am trying to do exactly this. My limited electronic skills mean I am not going very fast, and I lack a logic analyser which would really help, but I have reached the point where the MicroVAX 2000 formatter can recognise an RD31, RD32, RD53 and RD54 by counting tracks. I am some way off getting actual data in and out though.... Regards Rob On 30 January 2014 18:41, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 12:39 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: That may be why I can't get my Vax to boot from local disk!

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: You should also be able to use a SCSI HD > 1GB with the MicroVAX 3100 if you use sg3_utils to resize the reported SCSI HD capacity to 2097152 blocks (1GB / 512 bytes). Works for me with my MicroVAX 3100 with a SCSI HD with a native 9GB capacity. Example: C:\sg3_utils>sg_readcap.exe pd1 Read Capacity results: Last logical block address=17849999 (0x1105e8f), Number of blocks=17850000 Logical block length=512 bytes Hence: Device size: 9139200000 bytes, 8715.82 MiB, 9.1392 GB C:\sg3_utils>sg_format.exe --count=2097152 --resize --verbose pd1 inquiry cdb: 12 00 00 00 24 00 IBM DDRS-39130D DC1B peripheral_type: disk [0x0] PROTECT=0 mode sense (10) cdb: 5a 00 01 00 00 00 00 00 fc 00 mode sense (10): pass-through requested 252 bytes but got 28 bytes Mode Sense (block descriptor) data, prior to changes: Number of blocks=17850000 [0x1105e90] Block size=512 [0x200] mode select (10) cdb: 55 11 00 00 00 00 00 00 1c 00 Resize operation seems to have been successful C:\sg3_utils>sg_readcap.exe pd1 Read Capacity results: Last logical block address=2097151 (0x1fffff), Number of blocks=2097152 Logical block length=512 bytes Hence: Device size: 1073741824 bytes, 1024 MiB, 1.07374 GB http://sg.danny.cz/sg/sg3_utils.html

On Thu, 30 Jan 2014, Ethan Dicks wrote: Well it IS an open source project, so you could always have a set of boards made here via Seeedstudio or Oshpark. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

On Jan 30, 2014, at 5:17 PM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: I just did a small board with PCB-pool. Nice people, modest cost. One interesting thing they offered that I should have taken them up on but did not is a free solder stencil. Instead I did the soldering by hand, with wire solder. I?m not doing that again, not at 0.5 mm lead pitch. Perhaps I should have used some of the liquid flux I have, but that?s water-clean stuff rather than no-clean and I didn?t want to deal with that. Next time I?ll know better. paul

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 8:53 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: I do that too, but liquid solder makes it go a lot easier. -ethan

On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 9:47 AM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote: For $110, I can order ten 10cm x 10cm boards from Gold Phoenix, shipping included. I've used them before for small runs. The first 17 clock boards were from Gold Phoenix boards. They were recommended to me by Zach "Hoeken" Smith of MBI fame (he used to use Seeedstudio then switched). The 100 board run I had made locally (2.9" x 3") came out to about $6 each. -ethan

On 01/30/2014 01:42 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: Yes, that's about where I'm at, except for the annoyance that I don't have any SCSI disks *here with me* (and could use one for my Apple IIgs and another for an SE which has a particularly flaky drive). But I do have quite a stash in storage, and some of them probably still work. Has the world moved on from CF? I always thought that was supposed to be a bit easier to interface to - i.e. SCSI->IDE bridge, IDE-CF adapter, done. Maybe there are just various gotchas that make SD more attractive? cheers Jules

On Jan 30, 2014, at 18:01, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: Modern microcontrollers have multi-bit interfaces to true SD cards that get you way beyond the bandwidth you can conceivably get with SPI, and they also tend to handle the protocol in such a way that you can just request a block and pull it out via DMA. You can do somewhat similarly over a static memory interface for the various modes of CF, but it requires a bit more work in software to do the addressing and other overhead that the SDIO block in a microcontroller will do for you. I agree to a point, but it's also easier to find higher-quality SLC CF cards than it is SD cards because of CF's wide- spread industrial footprint. If card reliability and durability isn't top on your list, SD is fine and can generally keep up just fine as far as size and bandwidth go (and will be much cheaper). - Dave

On 01/30/2014 05:01 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: True, although if replacing something the size of a SCSI disk, this probably isn't an issue. Yup. Talking of which, I found an ISA-bus IDE controller the other day which really is just a large-enough PCB to house the IDE connector; there being a close relationship between IDE and ISA is well known, but it's the first time I'd seen such a basic card - there's normally some buffering at the very least. Probably. Wonder how robust they are... Very true. I'd just always assumed that CF was the easier of the two to interface to, so it seemed like the logical choice. Maybe it was based on what the designer had in their spares pile, though :) I think I'd quite like something that made an entire PC look like a SCSI device, making archival/backup onto modern media trivial (or quick selection of different drive images). I don't think there's a natural interface on a modern PC to do it, though; it's basically USB or nothing, and I don't think there's a way of making a PC's USB interface act as though it were a slave device being controlled by something else. cheers Jules

On 01/31/2014 09:30 AM, Doc wrote: Yes, I thought that some of the SCSI HBA's could do it, and that there was at least limited support in various OSes (we actually had that config on a pair of SGI machines many years ago, and I think they were AIC-7xxx boards). I do have some AIC-7xxx boards, but in storage; I think the only one I have here with me is an AHA-1520B ISA card. It seems a pity that there's no "available to the masses" way of getting the data into a PC these days, though. Although perhaps I'm misunderstanding how USB works, and a connected device can happily shovel data into a PC as needed - it just needs the PC to make the initial call. cheers Jules

On Jan 30, 2014, at 11:42 AM, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: That's kind of where I'm at. Though I like the idea of it as a backup device. Zane -- healyzh at aracnet.com http://www.zanesphotography.com http://www.flickr.com/photos/zanes-photography/ https://www.facebook.com/ZanesPhotography

On 1/30/14, 12:31 PM, Zane Healy wrote: I just ordered one- I'll let folks know how it works on: -Amiga -MVME 68k -SGI Onyx

On 01/30/2014 6:49 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: I can tell you that this SCSI2SD works to replace the Fluke 9100A/FT test fixture SCSI drive just fine. I loaded the 6.1 operating system onto a 4GB SD, and it booted up just fine - straight out of the 'box'. This is much less expensive than the AztecMonster and works easily as well in my application. John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 2343 Main St., Vancouver, BC, Canada V5T 3C9 Call (604)872-5757 or Fax 872-2010 (Pinballs, Jukes, VideoGames) www.flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out"

On 1/30/2014 10:31 AM, Zane Healy wrote: I'd like to adapt it to provide 1280 byte sectors so that it can be used in Symbolics machines. I just ordered one and once I get settled in after moving house I plan to play around with the firmware source. (It'd also be nice to be able to configure the device to provide a specific geometry, to satisfy hardware (or software) that only knows about certain fixed drives, like the 3B2 1000's Unix installer. It supports faking the Vendor ID, which is helpful...) - Josh

On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Rich Alderson < RichA at livingcomputermuseum.org> wrote: I had a brief chat with Michael, the SCSI2SD developer, and he's already working on supporting 256 byte sectors, per user demand. I mentioned the 1280 byte sector thing and he's now considering making the sector size completely configurable... so maybe this'll just work at some point in the future. That'd be seriously useful. - Josh

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 2:11 PM, Jason T <silent700 at gmail.com> wrote: Agreed. If they were cheap enough, I'd buy 10. Practically speaking, I'm more likely to buy 3-4. It's tempting to consider a domestic run of boards but it would take a large volume to get the cost under $30 each. That sounds like a reason to cut a second version of this sized for the purpose. I'd also like to find a supply of inexpensive MicroSD cards smaller than 4GB. The best I found from a few minutes of trolling eBay was lots of 10 and 25 for around $2-3 each for 128MB or 256MB. I'd rather find a lot of 25-50 for $1-$2 each. I certainly don't need to go out and get a stack of 4GB MicroSD for $5-$6 retail if I'm not going to use 90% of the capacity. -ethan

On Thu, Jan 30, 2014 at 02:49:24PM -0600, Jonathan Katz wrote: I too have several machines that will need and already need replacement drives. However at the current price(75$), and even at half that, I would need some indication that it will work or at the very least that the developer is willing to do changes to get it compatible with my hardware(SGI, Amiga, PDP-11, VAX, Mac, PC). I see it is open source, if a community of testers/developer is built arround this I could get on the bandwagon. Would it be possible for this device, with another firmware, to double as a replacement for IDE drives. /Pontus.

In article <CAALmimm2_RTsVigw3J9HbZDJ7=8PxaCLmzYQCLOJzRoBvDF9mA at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: Well, you can't buy any right now. I went to the web site and it was sold out. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book <http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline> The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org> The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org> Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>

On 01/30/2014 02:51 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: I'm glad someone else suggested that. :-) Without the noise it just isn't the same, somehow. I think I'd be tempted to at least retain a drive in the host machine even if it was non-functional (but spinning), just for the noise - but that doesn't help with configurations which don't start the spindle motor at power-on. cheers Jules

Everyone thinks this way...until drive breaks, head locks on disk, there is a head crash or something like that and you loose all your (unbackuped) data :)

Yea, like your kid won't take your 16GB thumbdrive with full Amiga TOSEC on it and erase it so he can stuff some MP3s on it. If anything backing up an old SCSI equipped system is much cheaper and easier then doing the same to a new system just because of space requirements. There is also the easy method of dumping the whole drive to the network server. Exactly what do people use on vintage systems that is so important anyway that a head crash is the end of the world? Large scale storage just makes it easier to put everything you have on one device so when it dies or gets lost or stolen you lose EVERYTHING in one shot. FLASH drives are also unrecoverable when they do die for no particular reason with no notice given. At least a spinning drive lets you know when the bearings are going. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to install Windows 9 on 3000 floppies when I get a new machine, but we are talking vintage gear here where some of the fun are those little obsolete ways of doing things like installing software from spinning media onto spinning media (or from punched cards if you are really old school). --Original Message----- From: Alexandre Souza Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 10:20 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SCSI2SD Everyone thinks this way...until drive breaks, head locks on disk, there is a head crash or something like that and you loose all your (unbackuped) data :) --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

On 31/01/2014 15:20, Alexandre Souza wrote: Working SCSI drives < 1GB are hard to find in the UK and tend to cost more than this board... Dave

Most people will no longer have working systems to worry about working disk storage down the road. While I have a few Amigas most of my collection is either floppy based (8 bit systems) or IDE/SCSI (Mac/PC) so I stocked up on drives over the years. All the DOA and faulty drives have long been turned into razor blades, seems like most of what is left and has been taken care of still works (IDE/SCSI). The older RLL/MFM drives were kind of crappy when new, so I can see people wanting those replaced with something more current and more available (finding MFM is much harder then IDE/SCSI). -----Original Message----- From: Ethan Dicks Sent: Friday, January 31, 2014 3:04 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SCSI2SD On Fri, Jan 31, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote: I don't fancy having to find more of them, but I did save quite a few when they were cheap/free. They won't last forever, but I'm set for some years. Looking ahead, though, I expect to have a number of SCSI-SD replacements at some point. I'll have to. -ethan --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

On 31/01/2014 22:43, Liam Proven wrote: If you have any less than 1Gb I would be interested. I just gave up looking.... Dave

On 31 January 2014 23:03, Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote: It looks like I may be moving abroad in the next month or so, so I will be disposing of most of the rest of my kit collection. Sadly, when I was trying to resurrect a Mac+ recently, almost all the SCSI drives I tried seemed to be dead, but I still have a few working ones. A DEC 5.25" drive in a SEU will be hitting eBay very soon indeed, for example, but I don't know whether it's working or not. I will, as ever, mention anything I list here on CCmp, but people seem to have a habit of missing my posts. Perhaps I've been killfiled by too many or something! -- Liam Proven * Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk * GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com * Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 * Cell: +44 7939-087884

I mentioned the same with the XTIDE cards people have made. Booting off the memory card is good, but with the sounds of a hard drive spinning up etc, and seeking it would be way better! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules Richardson Sent: 31 January 2014 14:14 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: SCSI2SD On 01/30/2014 02:51 PM, Nigel Williams wrote: I'm glad someone else suggested that. :-) Without the noise it just isn't the same, somehow. I think I'd be tempted to at least retain a drive in the host machine even if it was non-functional (but spinning), just for the noise - but that doesn't help with configurations which don't start the spindle motor at power-on. cheers Jules --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com

On 01/31/2014 09:24 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: Thank you, no. Years of sitting in a computer room with clattering card readers, screaming line printers and the damned high-level white noise of tape drive vacuum pumps have me cherishing the silence of modern systems. One might as well wish his dentist to provide the nostalgia of 1940's dental equipment. I do not understand the propensity of humans to WANT noise, be it the nerve-jangling rumble of a Harley-Davidson exhaust or the continuous oozing of garbage from a radio. --Chuck

On 01/31/2014 10:12 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: And that makes it more "real"? I'm not following. To complete the effect, I suppose you could make the noise permanent and then ship a batch of earplugs with it. Those spongy yellow earplugs saved my sanity. It's wasn't a high-dB level of noise that really got to you; it was the hours of a constant "fog" of about 85 dB that reduced your nerves to a pile of broken glass--it came on gradually over the day. --Chuck

oozing I like quiet machines normally, especially the ones I sit next to all day. But I can't wait to hear the noise from my recently acquired PDP11/45. Regards Rob

Absolutely!! My single biggest complaint with Ersatz-11 is that RT-11 runs more than 100 times as fast as a DEC PDP-11/93! Seriously, while I can understand to some extent that the hardware addicts on this list want to pretend the hardware is identical in ALL respects at least some of the time, as a software addict (specifically RT-11 on the PDP-11 if anyone has managed to forget), I am probably at least 2 to 3 times more efficient with all the extra resources that Ersatz-11 provides on even 10 year old hardware. Using current PC hardware, no real DEC PDP-11 hardware can possibly match the available resources, especially the CPU speed, I/O speed and emulated disk storage capacity. Even with a 12 year old system running Windows 98SE and 132 MB ATA drives, I just never seem to run out of disk space. About the only aspect that I have is that my old tube monitor died and the flat screen replacement monitor is MUCH slower on a FULL SCREEN (black and white) refresh Jerome Fine

...very interesting discussion on this adapter. I just ordered one to give it a try on my Rolms: For the Nova compatible (16xx) and the later Eclipse compatible machines (MSE14) there exists a SASI/SCSI board (type 4100) which I have got one and which might "talk" to this adapter. BTW: One problem with the old MFM HDDs is, that the controller had to be informed on the geometry of the harddrive. Rolm solved this problem by using track0, head0, sector0 to store a configuration block on the harddrive and the first thing their MFM->SASI controller does, is to read the configuration data from the harddrive itself. Of course the price for this is incompatibility with the standard, the lost cylinder0 and the need for a special formatting routine. Best regards, Erik. On Fri, 31 Jan 2014, Todd Goodman wrote: