18 Jan
2017
18 Jan
'17
10:32 a.m.
I've been offered a DEC TS05AA drive at a pretty good price. Before I
agree to the deal, I have a few questions that the DEC people can answer.
1. I understand that this drive is a rebadged Kennedy 9610. Corect?
2. The interface is supposed to be SCSI, but what kind of SCSI?
3. Do all 9610s have 800 NRZI support
4. What's your opinion of these drives in general?
Thanks,
Chuck
18 Jan
18 Jan
11:13 a.m.
On 1/18/2017 1:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've been offered a DEC TS05AA drive at a pretty
good price. Before I
agree to the deal, I have a few questions that the DEC people can answer.
1. I understand that this drive is a rebadged Kennedy 9610. Corect?
2. The interface is supposed to be SCSI, but what kind of SCSI?
3. Do all 9610s have 800 NRZI support
4. What's your opinion of these drives in general?
Thanks,
Chuck
My TS05-AA is a Pertec interface Cipher
drive (F880?) that does 1600 PE.
Haven't yet used it, so no opinions.
- J.
11:34 a.m.
Chuck wrote...
1. I understand that this drive is a rebadged Kennedy
9610. Corect?
2. The interface is supposed to be SCSI, but what kind of SCSI?
3. Do all 9610s have 800 NRZI support 4. What's your opinion of
these drives in general?
Thanks,
Chuck
To which JS replied:
----
My TS05-AA is a Pertec interface Cipher
drive (F880?) that does 1600 PE.
Haven't yet used it, so no opinions.
----
I have two (maybe 3) TS05's. All are pertec interface cipher F880's.
I have used F880's that were cipher badged as well as under other vendors badging.
They are highly stable/reliable transports. Parts abound still as well.
J
11:54 a.m.
I have two (maybe 3) TS05's. All are pertec
interface cipher F880's.
As is mine (as part of the VAX11/730 compact system). I have totally
stripped mine and
got it back together. I think I found one very minor difference to the
unit described in the
F880 manual on Bitsavers, so minor that it might just have been a
production change
in the F880.
I have used F880's that were cipher badged as well
as under other vendors badging.
They are highly stable/reliable transports. Parts abound still as well.
I'll agree with that. Very easy to keep going.
Be warned that if you take one apart, read the service manual first. You need
a special gauge to set the hub height. I cheated here and assumed it was
right before I took it apart, made the gauge to that dimension, and thus put it
back in the same place.
-tony
11:54 a.m.
On 01/18/2017 11:34 AM, Jay West wrote:
replied:
---- My TS05-AA is a Pertec interface Cipher drive
(F880?) that does
1600 PE. Haven't yet used it, so no opinions. ----
Jeez, you have to be careful. The seller sent me a photo and the drive
is indeed a Cipher F800. I recognized it immediately, as I used one
back in the day.
So not even 800 NRZI,
Thanks,
Chuck
12:09 p.m.
I have a fair bit of experience with these.
http://www.recycledgoods.com/digital-ts05-80-mb-1-2-tape-drive.html
is a Cipher 880
I would get pictures of the unit. 9610's don't look like this, they have
a card cage in the back and a completely different control panel. Docs/pics
are on bitsavers for the 961x which is your best reference. From memory, 9610
vs 12 was 800bpi support (I need to check the manual to be sure).
Now, as far as the 961x goes, there were lots of different versions. The basic
drive is Pertec interface, with an optional SCSI board. The SCSI can have
varying amounts of buffering.
They have strong servo motors, and they run fast. Not good for sticky tapes.
Their 800bpi recovery is pretty good, and the available documentation is
excellent. I wish the M4 Data or HP 88780 docs were half as good (you know,
like including SCHEMATICS in the service manual).
The 961x has a rubber wheel, and the go gooey, but so do the M4 and 88780
Of the three drives, the M4 has the softest servo, the HP, then the Kennedy.
Softer servos can let the tape go slack and swing the tensioner farther, esp
if the tape hasn't been condtioned (packed on a tape cleaner).
On 1/18/17 10:32 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've been offered a DEC TS05AA drive at a pretty
good price. Before I
agree to the deal, I have a few questions that the DEC people can answer.
1. I understand that this drive is a rebadged Kennedy 9610. Corect?
2. The interface is supposed to be SCSI, but what kind of SCSI?
3. Do all 9610s have 800 NRZI support
4. What's your opinion of these drives in general?
Thanks,
Chuck
12:52 p.m.
On 01/18/2017 12:09 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
I have a fair bit of experience with these.
...
Thanks for the wisdom, as always, Al.
What I'd love to find is a reel-to-reel "open" drive and not the usual
streamers. I do get problem tapes (sticky, shedding) and I don't much
care for the way the streamers handle them.
Whatever happened to the guy with the cheap Qualstar drive who claimed
that he could get 800 NRZI from it?
--Chcuk
1:06 p.m.
Maybe try a private message to him.
I'm curious what happened as well.
I probably have two dozen 105x drives. One of them has a 7 track head mounted
but not wired up.
On 1/18/17 12:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Whatever happened to the guy with the cheap Qualstar
drive who claimed
that he could get 800 NRZI from it?
--Chcuk
19 Jan
19 Jan
9:35 a.m.
On 01/18/2017 01:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 01/18/2017 01:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
Just got a message back from Amo--he says that updating his post
completely slipped his mind, but that reading 800 NRZI tapes has worked
out very well for him--recovering some 15K files.
He'll post an update and details. My thought is that this may be the
simplest way to get a "gentle" way to handle tapes. We'll see.
--Chuck
Maybe try a private message to him. I'm
curious what happened as
well.
I shot a message off to him--let's see if I get a response... 
9:59 a.m.
Hi all
I have never had problems with reading 800 bpi tapes on a Qualster 3412S.
But writing is a completely different discipline. The M4 9914 (?) can do it,
according to the documentation, but I've never tried it.
The 3412 is a bit weak in reading stitching tapes, the 9914 is a lot better
(I have both)
/Nico
----- Original Message -----
From: Chuck Guzis
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Sent: Thursday, January 19, 2017 6:35 PM
Subject: Re: TS05AA drives?
On 01/18/2017 01:59 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 01/18/2017 01:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
Just got a message back from Amo--he says that updating his post
completely slipped his mind, but that reading 800 NRZI tapes has worked
out very well for him--recovering some 15K files.
He'll post an update and details. My thought is that this may be the
simplest way to get a "gentle" way to handle tapes. We'll see.
--Chuck
--
I am using the free version of SPAMfighter.
SPAMfighter has removed 10949 of my spam emails to date.
Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len
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Maybe try a private message to him. I'm
curious what happened as
well.
I shot a message off to him--let's see if I get a response...
10:46 a.m.
On 01/19/2017 09:59 AM, Nico de Jong wrote:
I have never had problems with reading 800 bpi tapes
on a Qualster
3412S. But writing is a completely different discipline. The M4 9914
(?) can do it, according to the documentation, but I've never tried
it. The 3412 is a bit weak in reading stitching tapes, the 9914 is a
lot better (I have both)
I've run into sticky tapes that have had binder bleed so badly that they
won't even make it through my tape cleaning machine--the sticky parts
hit the first guide roller and bring everything to a halt. The only way
out of that situation that has been successful for me is to coat the
tape temporarily with a lubricant (which evaporates cleanly in a few
minutes, leaving no residue). Some 3M tapes from the 70s are very bad
in this respect.
A streamer with big powerful reel servos makes me a bit nervous in those
cases. After all, the design goal there is speed, not gentleness. And
the tapes likely to be at 800 bpi are these selfsame 70s tapes.
Another aspect of streamers, particularly the SCSI variety is the lack
of control that some give. I want to keep the seesawing to a
minimum--if there's a tape error, I don't want the drive to endlessly
keep retrying the read--I note that Qualstar drives are particularly bad
at this. If there's a tape error, notify the reading program and
continue on--I can always return to the problem area later.
--Chuck
8:12 p.m.
On 01/19/2017 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
A streamer with big powerful reel servos makes me a
bit
nervous in those cases. After all, the design goal there
is speed, not gentleness.
The CDC Keystone (92181 and 92185) drives have air
bearing
hubs that sense tape tension by how tightly the tape is
pulled over the bearing. So, the ONLY thing that actually
touches the data surface of the tape is the head and the
cleaner blade. Still, on deteriorated tapes, it starts
getting pretty bad. On good tapes from my archive, it just
takes a cleaning of the head after every reel.
Jon
8:42 p.m.
On 01/19/2017 08:12 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
On 01/19/2017 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'm familiar with the CDC air-bearing hubs, having cut my magtape teeth
many years ago on CDC 607 drives, then the 657/659 somewhat inferior
ones, then eventually the 66x autoloaders. I'll agree that the system
is very good, particularly in the case of vacuum-column drives.
But I haven't seen any Keystone drives for sale lately. Pity that.
--Chuck
A streamer with big powerful reel servos makes me
a bit nervous in
those cases. After all, the design goal there is speed, not
gentleness.
The CDC Keystone (92181 and 92185) drives have air bearing hubs that
sense tape tension by how tightly the tape is pulled over the
bearing. So, the ONLY thing that actually touches the data surface of
the tape is the head and the cleaner blade. Still, on deteriorated
tapes, it starts getting pretty bad. On good tapes from my archive,
it just takes a cleaning of the head after every reel.
20 Jan
20 Jan
7:25 a.m.
www.ebay.com/itm/272514729727
www.ebay.com/itm/272479761322
On 1/19/17 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
But I haven't seen any Keystone drives for sale
lately. Pity that.
--Chuck
7:38 a.m.
That is exactly looking like the TU80, even the error code label on the inside of the top
lid.
The TU80 also uses air-bearings.
Van: Al Kossow<mailto:aek at bitsavers.org>
Verzonden: vrijdag 20 januari 2017 16:25
Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org<mailto:cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: Re: TS05AA drives?
www.ebay.com/itm/272514729727<http://www.ebay.com/itm/272514729727>
www.ebay.com/itm/272479761322<http://www.ebay.com/itm/272479761322>
On 1/19/17 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
But I haven't seen any Keystone drives for sale
lately. Pity that.
--Chuck
5:50 p.m.
On 01/20/2017 03:51 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 01/20/2017 07:38 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
If the drive is a CDC 92181, then it natively supports 800
(NRZI) and 1600 (PE).
Of course, the controller/interface could fail to support
the 800.
Jon
That is exactly looking like the TU80, even the error code label on
the inside of the top lid.
The TU80 also uses air-bearings.
Isn't the TU80 1600 PE only?
6:42 p.m.
On 01/20/2017 05:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
If the drive is a CDC 92181, then it natively supports
800 (NRZI)
and 1600 (PE). Of course, the controller/interface could fail to
support the 800.
I've sent an email to the seller asking the model of the tape drive.
The listing says "TDX-50", but that's just the ISA card.
I don't see any density select button on the tape control pad, however.
--Chuck
8:30 p.m.
On 01/20/2017 08:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 01/20/2017 05:50 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
Hmmm, a couple places I looked seem to indicate 1600 (PE)
only. I never used a 92181, but am quite familiar with the
92185 (1600/6250). So, looks like it is PE, only.
The 92185 has no density select BUTTON, only an LED to
indicate high density. Density is selected by the ID burst
on the tape, unless it is overridden during tape
initialization from the computer interface.
Jon
If the drive is a CDC 92181, then it natively
supports 800 (NRZI)
and 1600 (PE). Of course, the controller/interface could fail to
support the 800.
I've sent an email to the seller asking the model of the tape drive.
The listing says "TDX-50", but that's just the ISA card.
I don't see any density select button on the tape control pad, however.
6:57 p.m.
They both included ISA cards according to the auction, but I didn't see
a photo or more details on which one. The top loading one would be
nice. I remember when MPI was manufacturing a similar arrangement for
DEC in Valley Forge.
The ones that mount in a rack are a bit less involved, but the flat
arrangement would be nice if you have the floorspace for the drives.
The second auction was for a rack mount oriented drive, and the auction
has ended. Would be a long drive up to Sacramento to pick the thing up,
but and would have to find space I don't have to get the flat one.
Thanks
Jim
On 1/20/2017 7:25 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
www.ebay.com/itm/272514729727
www.ebay.com/itm/272479761322
On 1/19/17 8:42 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
But I haven't seen any Keystone drives for
sale lately. Pity that.
--Chuck
2844
days inactive
2847
days old
20 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard.p850ug1＠gmail.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
henk.gooijen＠hotmail.com -
js＠cimmeri.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
nico＠farumdata.dk