2 May
2009
2 May
'09
2:05 p.m.
Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> wrote:
Hi. As a first general comment, I should point out that is was years
since I played with this, so all I write is from hazy memories. I could
check it all out, but that would take some time, so I'll just write away
for now, and hopefully this will be enough to set you on the right path
yourself. :-)
In a way, that is your only option, yes. Sad as it might seem.
It works with applications that don't do explicit termimal I/O, but
instead do file I/O and the output (or input) is actually the terminal.
That's the only situation where the terminal driver is involved. The
terminal driver is really not adapted to use as a general terminal I/O
handler, but only to use as one output/input alternative when you do
file I/O.
So it will never be, or do, what you want in this situation.
That's just the beginning of it, however...
> I just try
to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e.
> Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud.
And I begin to think about
switching everything to 300 baud :-( > I need
fill characters....
> Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler and
> works.
Yes, it works with applications using the TTY handler You need to
use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device
driver included. However, you also need to understand many programs do
I/O to the console without going through that device driver, but talks
directly with the console.
So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem.
And the very first
of these "bad" programs is the OS/8 keyboard monitor! Yes, the keyboard monitor doesn't use a handler,
it just uses TLS to print what it wants to print.
This explains why my DIRECT output works fine with the KL8E handler with delay turned on.
But I
don't get the prompt properly (sometimes). The keyboard monitor implementation looks
very straight
forward.
So there are a few new problems on my way to a working 2400 baud VT05:
How to correctly assemble the keyboard monitor? There is at least one undefined symbol in
the source
code (V3D).
Can't make any comments on that. I think I have all the sources
somewhere, and they are also probably on the internet, but I have never
tried building the whole system from scratch.
When I have the binary - how to put that onto my
system device?
That's another story. I can't remember for sure, but I think you can do
this with build.
The software support manual, OS/8 manual and
"Introduction to programming" did not really help me.
They explain *some* procedures, but only in a step by step way. They tell about building
from paper
tape using "CODNFIG" tapes (what IS that???) or the build program. They
reference paper tapes that
contain "several binaries" - but don't explain WHICH binaries. Just that
the user has to load all of
them... So in the end I did not find out how an OS/8 system is initally built.
In your case, you probably want to use BUILD.
The BUILD program can do it, I know. But where does it
take the keyboard monitor from? The "OS8.BN"
binary is not included in the installation - but I can spawn new systems using BUILD. So
it must
somehow *contain* the OS/8 binary.
I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of each other to pull
together the core
image that comes as BUILD.SV. But where can I find the instructions?
All the relevant bits and pieces are in the OS/8 handbook. But in short,
build can take a current system image and use as a base for the new one
if I remember correctly. So it don't contain the OS/8 binary itself.
That would be pretty dumb, by the way. It would make upgrading
difficult, since you'd have to match BUILD.SV to whatever OS image you
were using.
BUILD can also replace device drivers in your system. That is fixed
blocks on the system disk, I think.
All in all I cannot understand why I'm getting in
such deep trouble while trying to get my VT05
working. It is a VT05 B with the "high speed" option, sold for $$$ by DEC.
Their TTY handler also supports the odd ends of the VT05 - but why doesn't the
keyboard monitor?
Either I am completely wrong or their software really did not fit their hardware.
In other places (VR14 display), they have built in the strangest device drivers into
their software,
just ready to use and plug and play. Why shouldn't they have supported their high
speed VT05? It is
from 1974, OS/8 V3D is newer than that...
To make a long story short. The PDP-8 wasn't exactly a top of the line
product by the time the VT05 came out. OS/8 was written before this, and
it is those limitations that you are hitting. V3D wasn't exactly a
redesign of the system. Just some fixes. The problem you are looking at
goes straight to the core of the system design. There is nothing you
could do about that short of totally rewriting the whole system. And
then it wouldn't be OS/8 any more.
In short, all programs that do terminal I/O specifically in OS/8 do it
themself. No device driver is ever involved. And all programs knows
this. So there is no way you can change that paradigm. All programs
would still do it that way, even if you did redesign the monitor.
There is possibly one path to relief, however. Unless my memory fails
me, the KL8-JA (and maybe the KL8-E as well) have a jumper to insert 4
(I think it was) fillers after a LF. This is a hardware fix for your
problem, and is what DEC did.
In short, there is no software solution to the problem within OS/8. But
there is a hardware solution (unless my memory fails me).
Best wishes, currently a bit frustated,
Philipp :-)
:-)
Funny that noone else around seems to be able to answer. I thought there
were atleast some people with experience from older systems around. :-)
Johnny
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
3 May
3 May
7:14 a.m.
On May 2, 2009, at 7:05 PM, Johnny Billquist <bqt at softjar.se> wrote:
Yes, using the OS/8 Software Support manual for help. It's
not easy.
(Starting with getting good source, then humming enough room to add
your changes.)
I think you're right. Another suggestion that comes to mind is a
simple PIC based widget that front ends tv VT05, inserting nulls as
needed.
I would have replied earlier, but this iPod doesn't make entering long
replies convenient.
-Rick
Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> wrote:
Hi. As a first general comment, I should point out that is was years
since I played with this, so all I write is from hazy memories. I
could check it all out, but that would take some time, so I'll just
write away for now, and hopefully this will be enough to set you on
the right path yourself. :-)
In a way, that is your only option, yes. Sad as it might seem.
It works with applications that don't do explicit termimal I/O, but
instead do file I/O and the output (or input) is actually the
terminal. That's the only situation where the terminal driver is
involved. The terminal driver is really not adapted to use as a
general terminal I/O handler, but only to use as one output/input
alternative when you do file I/O.
So it will never be, or do, what you want in this situation.
That's just the beginning of it, however...
That's the real problem- first you fix the KBM then you'll need to fix
the command processor. Then Basic, etc.
> I
just try to get a VT05 working with my PDP-8/e.
> Having a tuned KL8E interface at 2400 baud.
And I begin to think about
switching everything to 300 baud :-( > I
need fill characters....
> Found a KL8E.PA in the OS/8 V3D sources. It is a two page handler
> and works.
Yes, it works with applications using the TTY handler You need
to use BUILD to make a new system image, with your device
driver included. However, you also need to understand many
programs do I/O to the console without going through that device
driver, but talks directly with the console.
So it might be that there is no easy solution to your problem.
And the very first
of these "bad" programs is the OS/8 keyboard
monitor! Yes, the keyboard monitor doesn't use a
handler, it just uses TLS
to print what it wants to print.
This explains why my DIRECT output works fine with the KL8E handler
with delay turned on. But I don't get the prompt properly
(sometimes). The keyboard monitor implementation looks very
straight forward.
So there are a few new problems on my way to a working 2400 baud
VT05:
How to correctly assemble the keyboard monitor? There is at least
one undefined symbol in the source code (V3D).
Can't make any comments on that. I think I have all the sources
somewhere, and they are also probably on the internet, but I have
never tried building the whole system from scratch.
When I have the binary - how to put that onto my
system device?
That's another story. I can't remember for sure, but I think you can
do this with build. The software support manual, OS/8 manual and
"Introduction to
programming" did not really help me. They explain *some*
procedures, but only in a step by step way. They tell about
building from paper tape using "CODNFIG" tapes (what IS that???) or
the build program. They reference paper tapes that contain "several
binaries" - but don't explain WHICH binaries. Just that the user
has to load all of them... So in the end I did not find out how an
OS/8 system is initally built.
In your case, you probably want to use BUILD.
The BUILD program can do it, I know. But where
does it take the
keyboard monitor from? The "OS8.BN" binary is not included in the
installation - but I can spawn new systems using BUILD. So it must
somehow *contain* the OS/8 binary.
I could imagine that one has to load several binaries on top of
each other to pull together the core image that comes as BUILD.SV.
But where can I find the instructions?
All the relevant bits and pieces are in the OS/8 handbook. But in
short, build can take a current system image and use as a base for
the new one if I remember correctly. So it don't contain the OS/8
binary itself. That would be pretty dumb, by the way. It would make
upgrading difficult, since you'd have to match BUILD.SV to whatever
OS image you were using.
BUILD can also replace device drivers in your system. That is fixed
blocks on the system disk, I think.
All in all I cannot understand why I'm
getting in such deep trouble
while trying to get my VT05 working. It is a VT05 B with the "high
speed" option, sold for $$$ by DEC.
Their TTY handler also supports the odd ends of the VT05 - but why
doesn't the keyboard monitor?
Either I am completely wrong or their software really did not fit
their hardware.
In other places (VR14 display), they have built in the strangest
device drivers into their software, just ready to use and plug and
play. Why shouldn't they have supported their high speed VT05? It
is from 1974, OS/8 V3D is newer than that...
To make a long story short. The PDP-8 wasn't exactly a top of the
line product by the time the VT05 came out. OS/8 was written before
this, and it is those limitations that you are hitting. V3D wasn't
exactly a redesign of the system. Just some fixes. The problem you
are looking at goes straight to the core of the system design. There
is nothing you could do about that short of totally rewriting the
whole system. And then it wouldn't be OS/8 any more.
In short, all programs that do terminal I/O specifically in OS/8 do
it themself. No device driver is ever involved. And all programs
knows this. So there is no way you can change that paradigm. All
programs would still do it that way, even if you did redesign the
monitor.
There is possibly one path to relief, however. Unless my memory
fails me, the KL8-JA (and maybe the KL8-E as well) have a jumper to
insert 4 (I think it was) fillers after a LF. This is a hardware fix
for your problem, and is what DEC did.
In short, there is no software solution to the problem within OS/8.
But there is a hardware solution (unless my memory fails me).
Best wishes,
currently a bit frustated,
Philipp :-)
:-)
Funny that noone else around seems to be able to answer. I thought
there were atleast some people with experience from older systems
around. :-) 
10:36 p.m.
On May 2, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Funny that noone else around seems to be able to
answer. I thought
there were atleast some people with experience from older systems
around. :-)
I'd say this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;) I've done tons of
stuff with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago,
ugh!) but have never run across this.
Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to
connect it to a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
4 May
4 May
9:15 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On May 2, 2009, at 2:05 PM, Johnny Billquist wrote:
Disclaimer... I struggled through this myself and this is how I
understand it. Comments and corrections are welcome.
First, the BUILD.SV utility is both a tool to change the OS
configuration and a record of the configuration. Typically, BUILD.SV
will contain the original configuration of the system. Changes are made
by RUNing and then SAVEing new versions of the configuration.
Danger! Danger! Will Robinson... If the BUILD.SV image does not match
your running configuration, you will destroy your current OS
configuration and make the system unbootable. I would use RESORC /E to
determine the current configuration then make sure it matches what you
see from BUILD.
The following is a transcript of taking a system configuration saved in
BLDDMO.SV and adding a non-system TD8E handler. I will insert comments
with a #.
# Start BUILD containing the current configuration. Make sure to use RUN
because
# that lets you save it when you are done.
.RUN SYS BLDDMO.SV
# Print the configuration
# Handlers in the BUILD image are listed. Handlers that will be included
in the OS
# are marked with *.
$PR
RK8E: SYS RKA0 RKB0
RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1
LPSV: LPT
PT8E: PTP PTR
DUMP: *DUMP
COM : RTS8
RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1
RX8E: *SYS
KL8E: *TTY
DSK=RX02:RXA0
CORE= 6
# First the handler must be loaded into the BUILD image using LOAD. The
drive must
# already exist in .BN format on the SYS device.
$LOAD TD8EA.BN
# Now the TD8E handler is available, but will not be installed in the OS.
$PR
RK8E: SYS RKA0 RKB0
RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1
LPSV: LPT
PT8E: PTP PTR
DUMP: *DUMP
COM : RTS8
RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1
RX8E: *SYS
KL8E: *TTY
TD8A: DTA0 DTA1
DSK=RX02:RXA0
CORE= 6
# Now the handler is added to the OS that will be built.
$INSERT TD8A,DTA0
# Note the * in front of DTA0.
$PR
RK8E: SYS RKA0 RKB0
RK05: *RKA0 *RKB0 *RKA1 *RKB1
LPSV: LPT
PT8E: PTP PTR
DUMP: *DUMP
COM : RTS8
RX02: *RXA0 *RXA1
RX8E: *SYS
KL8E: *TTY
TD8A: *DTA0 DTA1
DSK=RX02:RXA0
CORE= 6
# Now add DECTape drive 1
$INSERT TD8A,DTA1
# This is the point when the new OS is written to the SYS device using
the devices that are
# in the configuration.
$BOOTSTRAP
SYS BUILT
# Now save the configuration. I used the same name that I started with.
Change the
# name if you want to have the old configuration available.
.SAVE SYS BLDDMO.SV
# At this point I am not sure if the new system is in operation or not.
# I usually halt and then reboot.
# After a reboot.
# The TD8E is now available.
.RESORC /E
23 FILES IN 371 BLOCKS
561 FREE BLOCKS (3 EMPTIES)
# NAME TYPE MODE SIZ BLK KIND U V ENT USER
01 SYS RX02 RWF 988 SYS 0 M 07
02 DSK RX02 RWF 988 20+ 32
03 RKA0 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 0 A 20
04 RKB0 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 0 A 21
05 RKA1 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 1 A 22
06 RKB1 RK8E RWF 3248 16 RK05 1 A 23
07 DUMP DUMP W 17+ C 176
10 RXA0 RX02 RWF 988 20+ 32
11 RXA1 RX02 RWF 988 20+ 36
12 TTY TTY RW 21+ KL8E E 176
13 DTA0 TD8E RWF 737 22+ TD8 0 D 10
14 DTA1 TD8E RWF 737 22+ TD8 1 D 14
FREE DEVICE SLOTS: 03, FREE BLOCK SLOTS: 03
OS/8 V3T
.
Thats all there is to it.
A TTY handler will already be present, so that will have to be removed
before it can be replaced. DELETE removes the handler from the
configuration. UNLOAD completely deletes the handler from the BUILD image.
The OS/8 Handbook is your friend. Start at page 2-34.
-chuck
Funny that noone else around seems to be able to
answer. I thought
there were atleast some people with experience from older systems
around. :-)
I'd say this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;) I've done tons of
stuff with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago,
ugh!) but have never run across this.
Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to connect
it to a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :)
-Dave
13 May
13 May
12:40 a.m.
Good morning,
First, the BUILD.SV utility is both a tool to change
the OS
configuration and a record of the configuration. Typically, BUILD.SV
will contain the original configuration of the system. Changes are made
by RUNing and then SAVEing new versions of the configuration.
Yes, that's well
known on my side. It also seems to contain the LOADed device handlers.
The following is a transcript of taking a system
configuration saved in
BLDDMO.SV and adding a non-system TD8E handler. I will insert comments
with a #.
...
# in the configuration.
$BOOTSTRAP
SYS BUILT
That's pretty not what I wanted to do (gave up the idea running VT05 at >300 baud).
I know to use
BUILD. The point is elsewhere.
Thats all there is to it.
No. There is more.
There's ALWAYS more *g*
The console TTY is handled by the OS/8 keyboard handler *directly*. So it does NOT use one
of the
handlers installed with BUILD.
BUILD itself seems to contain the LOADed handlers. When you enter BOOT (or BOOTSTRAP),
BUILD writes
out OS/8 and the configured handlers to the specified system device. The specified system
device can
be clean before. That proves that BUILD really puts all the OS/8 stuff onto the
disk/DECTape.
How is the system INITIALLY built? There are *some* explanations in the OS/8 handbook,
involving
some obscure paper tapes and BUILD. But no really detailed description.
It would be nice to be able to compile OS/8 itself.
A TTY handler will already be present, so that will
have to be removed
before it can be replaced. DELETE removes the handler from the
configuration. UNLOAD completely deletes the handler from the BUILD image.
Yes,
yes, yes. BUT: The TTY handler is only responsible for the TTY: device used for things
like
DIRECT and other software using handlers.
The keyboard monitor does not use TTY:!
I gave up the idea patching the KBM to generate fill characters: a) I'm not sure if I
would be able
to insert even one instruction into the KBM code (it's written TIGHT!), b) There are
too many other
programs using direct I/O. They all would have to be patched as well (FORTRAN IV RTS as an
easy
example).
The OS/8 Handbook is your friend. Start at page 2-34.
Only at the first glance :-(
Best wishes,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
2:05 a.m.
From: "Philipp Hachtmann"
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 9:40 PM
Yes, yes, yes. BUT: The TTY handler is only
responsible for
the TTY: device used for things like
DIRECT and other software using handlers.
The keyboard monitor does not use TTY:!
I tried
.SET TTY DELAY 12
as mentioned in the KL8E driver source, but I got
% OPERATION NOT YET IMPLEMENTED
so just for grins, I tried:
.SET TTY PAGE 1
.SET TTY PAUSE 767
That seemed to do something like what you were trying for. I'm sure
767 is much too large -- I used the largest value it would take,
because I was trying this on SIMH and wasn't sure I'd be able to
even see a shorter pause. (It turns out even 10 is noticeable
on my SIMH.)
Your mileage may vary, depending on what options were enabled at
compile time. Hope it helps!
Vince
2:31 a.m.
Hi Vince,
I tried
.SET TTY DELAY 12
as mentioned in the KL8E driver source, but I got
% OPERATION NOT YET IMPLEMENTED
Hehe... I get something like (currently away
from my computer) "NOT IMPLEMENTED. REASSEMBLE KL8E
SOURCE." So I did. Yeah, the driver source looks promising. But.. When you start to
enable options,
you'll realise that you nearly immediately run out of room in several places.
At least the delay I got to work, I think. Since then I can correctly display
DIRerctories. But...
Read my last message - all that's completely useless :-(
Best wishes,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
11:01 a.m.
From: "Philipp Hachtmann"
Sent: Tuesday, May 12, 2009 11:31 PM
At least the delay I got to work, I think. Since then
I can correctly
display DIRerctories. But...
Read my last message - all that's completely useless :-(
If your concern is the large software base that does something like
TSF; JMP .-1; TLS
to output a character, then yeah, you'll need hardware line-feed
delay. Per the KL8J/M8655 documentation:
"
Fill Characters -- VT05
To operate at speeds above 300 baud, the VT05 requires
that filler characters be transmitted to it followeing
any line feed character. The insertion of the "FIL"
jumper on the M8655 causes four all zero characters to
be automatically transmitted to the VT05 following
every line feed. The transmit flag is not set until
the KL8-JA is ready to accept other data.
"
There doesn't seem to be any equivalent provision for the KL8E/M8650,
or (surprisingly) the DKC8/M8316. So I think your easiest solution
for an 8/e/f/m/a is to install an M8655.
For earlier machines, the M707 transmitter module has a "wait" input,
which is designed to hold off a half-duplex line, but which I believe
could be adapted to do what you want. You'd have to add a couple of
chips somewhere (effectively modifying or replacing the M707), though.
If the VT05 dropped DSR or some similar signal during the interval that
it is not ready, it would make things a lot simpler. I don't see the
circuitry to do that in the VT05 schematics, though.
Vince
9:04 p.m.
Hi,
I completely mis-understood the source of your
troubles.
Oh.
The VT05 terminal operates at speeds from 110 baud to 2400 baud, selectable with a rotary
switch in
the back (my unit is currently missing a counter ic to generate 110baud, but...).
So far so good. The problem is, that when you want to operate the VT05 at speeds higher
than 300
baud, you have to wait a certain amount of time after a line feed character or cursor
positioning
command. This is usually done by inserting zero fill characters (4 at 2400 baud) after the
critical
commands. If you don't obey this rule, the VT05 has not completed changing the line
when you send
the next character. This is a bit like a too slow cr on a teletype - funny but true.
So my wish was to modify OS/8 so far that it generates those fill characters.
The TTY: handler is also capable of correctly doing this for me. But many other programs -
as the
OS/8 keyboard monitor itself - use direct IO commands to read from and write to the
terminal.
So one would have to patch many programs. In case of the keyboard monitor, I don't
know if there is
any room left to put such a code in. And I don't know how to reassemble and correctly
install a new
keyboard monitor from scratch.
So all I can do is to run the VT05 at 300 baud. Or get the advances serial interface (see
other
posting).
Did this illustrate the problem?
Best wishes,
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
14 May
14 May
7:10 a.m.
I may have missed some facts earlier in this thread-- but does the system
obey hardware flow control such as CTS? ie, if CTS is low, will it be
blocked from transmitting? If that is obeyed by all of your OS and
software, then it is not hard to build a microcontroller that would sit
between the system and the terminal, adding the delays you need on <cr>
while buffering for and hardware flow controlling back toward the PDP-8.
Chris
On Thursday (05/14/2009 at 03:04AM +0200), Philipp Hachtmann wrote:
Hi,
--
Chris Elmquist
I completely mis-understood the source of your
troubles.
Oh.
The VT05 terminal operates at speeds from 110 baud to 2400 baud,
selectable with a rotary switch in the back (my unit is currently missing
a counter ic to generate 110baud, but...).
So far so good. The problem is, that when you want to operate the VT05 at
speeds higher than 300 baud, you have to wait a certain amount of time
after a line feed character or cursor positioning command. This is
usually done by inserting zero fill characters (4 at 2400 baud) after the
critical commands. If you don't obey this rule, the VT05 has not
completed changing the line when you send the next character. This is a
bit like a too slow cr on a teletype - funny but true.
So my wish was to modify OS/8 so far that it generates those fill characters.
The TTY: handler is also capable of correctly doing this for me. But many
other programs - as the OS/8 keyboard monitor itself - use direct IO
commands to read from and write to the terminal.
So one would have to patch many programs. In case of the keyboard
monitor, I don't know if there is any room left to put such a code in.
And I don't know how to reassemble and correctly install a new keyboard
monitor from scratch.
So all I can do is to run the VT05 at 300 baud. Or get the advances
serial interface (see other posting).
Did this illustrate the problem?
Best wishes,
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
16 May
16 May
1:17 p.m.
From: "Chris Elmquist"
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 4:10 AM
I may have missed some facts earlier in this thread--
but does the system
obey hardware flow control such as CTS? ie, if CTS is low, will it be
blocked from transmitting? If that is obeyed by all of your OS and
software, then it is not hard to build a microcontroller that would sit
between the system and the terminal, adding the delays you need on <cr>
while buffering for and hardware flow controlling back toward the PDP-8.
The short answer is no -- none of the PDP-8's do output flow control
"out-of-the-box". (I haven't checked on the DECmates, maybe some of
those do.)
On some models this should be relatively easy to retrofit. (I don't know
how to do it offhand for the M8650 card, nor for the models before the 8/i,
though.)
And you'd still need the kludge you describe (or equivalent), since the
VT05 also doesn't generate a flow control signal.
Vince
14 May
14 May
8:25 p.m.
At 09:04 PM 5/13/2009, Philipp Hachtmann wrote:
Hi,
As I said earlier, this is easier said than done. However, it's
possible if you've got source and the time. Fitting something that does
the job into the CD and KBM is hard given how tight this code is.
I completely mis-understood the source of your
troubles.
Oh.
The VT05 terminal operates at speeds from 110 baud to 2400 baud,
selectable with a rotary switch in the back (my unit is currently
missing a counter ic to generate 110baud, but...).
So far so good. The problem is, that when you want to operate the VT05
at speeds higher than 300 baud, you have to wait a certain amount of
time after a line feed character or cursor positioning command. This
is usually done by inserting zero fill characters (4 at 2400 baud)
after the critical commands. If you don't obey this rule, the VT05 has
not completed changing the line when you send the next character. This
is a bit like a too slow cr on a teletype - funny but true.
So my wish was to modify OS/8 so far that it generates those fill
characters. The TTY: handler is also capable of correctly doing
this for me. But
many other programs - as the OS/8 keyboard monitor itself - use direct
IO commands to read from and write to the terminal.
So one would have to patch many programs. In case of the keyboard
monitor, I don't know if there is any room left to put such a code in.
And I don't know how to reassemble and correctly install a new
keyboard monitor from scratch.
Assemble? Just use PAL to assemble KBM and CD, then use the BUILD
program to load it. You load the new KBM and CD .BN files using the
BUILD command (within BUILD). It'll prompt you for the location for the
OS8.BN and CD.BN files. Unfortunately, using BUILD will zero the
directory on the target device, so you had better be sure that's what
you want to do. :-)
-Rick
13 May
13 May
12:25 a.m.
I'd say this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;)
I've done tons of stuff
with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago, ugh!) but
have never run across this.
Perhaps you never wanted to connect a VT05 needing fill
characters to your system? *g*
Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I
want to connect it
to a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :)
You won't need to
think too much: ASR33 simply works out of the box. Insert a KL8-E board, hook up
the ASR33, run OS/8. Perhaps you have to adjust things like the rubout behaviour...
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
1:14 a.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 12:25 AM, Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> wrote:
In all honesty, no. I don't think I've ever even *seen* a VT05. I've
seen plenty of ASR-33s and lots of VT52s (and plenty more newer
terminals), just not the VT05.
In my experience, if you had an older system (pre-OMNIBUS), an ASR-33
was quite common, though I have used a VT220 with my TTL-era PDP-8s
(because of the included 20mA interface). By the time the OMNIBUS
came around (1972?), the ASR-33 was no longer the "only" terminal to
use - I've seen a number of -8/e and -8/m with either a VT52 or some
flavor of Tektronix terminal on them. The VT52 was quite common on
the PDP-8/a, and I'd say the ASR-33 much less so, but by no means
unknown.
In all of that, the VT05 kinda stands apart. I don't have much
experience with the multi-terminal Edusystems, but perhaps that was a
place where the VT05 might have been used. You'd at least have a
place for a driver, unlike at the OS/8 prompt. I also don't recall
the VT05 being pushed in the PDP-8 literature of the day, unlike the
ASR-33 and the VT52.
As long as you have the DEC reader-run-relay mod (there'll be a 6-wire
cable from the TTY, not 4-wire), you'll do great. If you lack the
RRR, you will probably have issues trying to load software, but you
can punch tape and run software from the keyboard and printer just
fine. There are plenty of 4-wire ASR-33s out there from DEC
installations because they were used for non-console use, say on an
DZ11 or a KL8JA. If you lack the RRR mod, I know I've seen it at the
back of one of the DEC print sets, though I can't recall right now if
it was a PDP-8 print set or an 11/20 printset (I have both and have
read both many times).
If your ASR-33 hasn't been cleaned and properly lubed (not
over-lubed), you might want to take some time cleaning and adjusting
it. I know I have to tweak on mine once or twice a year, but nothing
really major - just make sure the top and bottom of the letters make
even impressions, make sure the keys all create letters (and send bits
down the wire). It shouldn't be hard to locate or write an ASCII echo
program for testing the TTY. It's much more revealing of problems
than trying to type DIR commands in OS/8.
Good luck!
-ethan
?I'd say
this was a pretty esoteric issue. ;) ?I've done tons of stuff
with OS/8, going back to when I was about 16 (24 years ago, ugh!) but have
never run across this.
Perhaps you never wanted to connect a VT05 needing fill characters to your
system? *g* ?Now, I
finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I want to connect it to
a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :)
You won't need to think too much: ASR33 simply works out of the box. Insert
a KL8-E board, hook up the ASR33, run OS/8.
2:56 a.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Hi,
I have seen some old computers the last years... But
the VT05 seems to be nearly a phantom. I know
there exist other VT05s.... I have just seen two - in the same pile of stuff. And one is
mine now.
That's the only one I've ever seen working - after repair :-)
As long as you have the DEC reader-run-relay mod (there'll be a 6-wire
cable from the TTY, not 4-wire), you'll do great. If you lack the
RRR, you will probably have issues trying to load software, but you
can punch tape and run software from the keyboard and printer just
fine. There are plenty of 4-wire ASR-33s out there from DEC
installations because they were used for non-console use, say on an
DZ11 or a KL8JA. If you lack the RRR mod, I know I've seen it at the
back of one of the DEC print sets, though I can't recall right now if
it was a PDP-8 print set or an 11/20 printset (I have both and have
read both many times). Don't worry. Most 33's I have are equipped with the
DEC mod. And.. I think you won't get in trouble
without the mod. And... honestly... Loading software via teletype is one of the most time
consuming
excercises I ever did. I sometimes booted a Honeywell H316 via teletype (a unit that has
tty as only
peripheral). It's awful. Loading the CPU test in over half an hour...!! To a 4Kx16
system.
BTW Honeywell used ASR33 with software flow control (XON/XOFF) in a half duplex
configuration. The
reader starts on a XON character and stops after reading an XOFF character. I have only
one machine
in this configuration. If anyone wants to trade one, I could use another one. Can offer a
mint ASR33
or a 35KSR, each with DEC, mod for it!
Perhaps you
never wanted to connect a VT05 needing fill characters to your
system? *g*
In all honesty, no. I don't think I've ever even *seen* a VT05. I've
seen plenty of ASR-33s and lots of VT52s (and plenty more newer
terminals), just not the VT05. In my experience, if you had an older system
(pre-OMNIBUS), an ASR-33
was quite common, though I have used a VT220 with my TTL-era PDP-8s
(because of the included 20mA interface).
By the time the OMNIBUS
came around (1972?),
1970!
the ASR-33 was no longer the "only" terminal
to
use - I've seen a number of -8/e and -8/m with either a VT52 or some
flavor of Tektronix terminal on them. The VT52 was quite common on
the PDP-8/a, and I'd say the ASR-33 much less so, but by no means
unknown.
I don't know... My H316 comes with 33/35 ASR, too.... It's made in
1969.
place for a driver, unlike at the OS/8 prompt. I also
don't recall
the VT05 being pushed in the PDP-8 literature of the day, unlike the
ASR-33 and the VT52.
That's interesting. So I need to get a VT52, too. Will
manage that - I hope...
Now, I finally got an ASR-33 a few weeks ago, and I
want to connect it to
a PDP-8, so I might have to think about this some more! :)
You won't need to
think too much: ASR33 simply works out of the box. Insert
a KL8-E board, hook up the ASR33, run OS/8. If your ASR-33 hasn't been cleaned and properly
lubed (not
over-lubed), you might want to take some time cleaning and adjusting
it. I know I have to tweak on mine once or twice a year, but nothing
really major - just make sure the top and bottom of the letters make
even impressions, make sure the keys all create letters (and send bits
down the wire).
Aha? I never had to adjust anything.. except... The hammer. I
replaced the gum by ugly windings of
electric tape - works like a charm, but has to be replaced every 3 to 4 paper rolls. Take
care not
to ruin your print hammer!!!
On one unit I have rewound the hammer spring to get a better print result (there is NO
adjustment
for the hammer force, isn't there?!?). Not really a funny excercise.
That's all. I primarily was a collector of mechanical teleprinter gear, so I am a bit
familiar with
mechanical digital equipment.
It shouldn't be hard to locate or write an ASCII
echo
program for testing the TTY. It's much more revealing of problems
than trying to type DIR commands in OS/8.
What about local echo?
... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away and get another one.
They
stand around in every corner. I did not yet have to throw one away, but...
Still having some incomplete machines (better called fragments) sitting in the basement,
but that's
another story (and it was not me who dismantled them!). They'll go to the dumpster
when I move house
next time. Of course with the important parts (print head, handle, intact cover parts
etc.) removed.
Best wishes,
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
3:09 a.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
On Wed, May 13, 2009 at 2:56 AM, Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> wrote:
I can entirely believe that. I don't think very many were made
compared to most other forms of terminals.
Does local echo send all the way out to the loop and back? Routing
through the PDP-8 tests everything, but I can see how local echo could
be handy if you suspect a local mechanical problem.
In all
honesty, no. ?I don't think I've ever even *seen* a VT05...
I have seen some old computers the last years... But the VT05 seems to be
nearly a phantom. I know there exist other VT05s.... I have just seen two -
in the same pile of stuff. And one is mine now. That's the only one I've
ever seen working - after repair :-) I don't know... My H316 comes with 33/35 ASR,
too.... It's made in 1969.
I was thinking of DEC equipment in particular. I know that hobbyists
used ASR33s with early IMSAIs, etc (cf Micro-Soft's paper tape BASIC)
years after they were no longer on every DEC machine.
That's interesting. So I need to get a VT52, too.
Will manage that - I
hope...
There is lots of VT52 support at the application level for OS/8. The
big one is the VTEDIT TECO MACRO. You can edit files as if with EDT.
The code is *ugly* but I have used it with a real VT52 (it doesn't
work right with a VT220 in VT52 mode - the emulation must not be
bug-for-bug compatible).
Don't worry. Most 33's I have are equipped
with the DEC mod. And.. I think
you won't get in trouble without the mod.
Without the mod, the CPU can't single-step the reader. Sometimes that
matters, sometimes it doesn't, I think.
And... honestly... Loading
software via teletype is one of the most time consuming excercises I ever
did.
It is awful, but I've owned PDP-8s that only had paper-tape as a load device.
Aha? I never had to adjust anything.. except... The
hammer. I replaced the
gum by ugly windings of electric tape - works like a charm, but has to be
replaced every 3 to 4 paper rolls. Take care not to ruin your print
hammer!!!
I have one or two replacement rubber pads I bought from Western
Numeric Controls over 10 years ago. They are new-in-bag, so haven't
turned to goo... yet.
On one unit I have rewound the hammer spring to get a
better print result
(there is NO adjustment for the hammer force, isn't there?!?).
There may be (I haven't tweaked that in a while), but the big one for
my main teletype is balancing upper and lower force - sometimes my
letters have an uneven impression.
That's all. I primarily was a collector of
mechanical teleprinter gear, so I
am a bit familiar with mechanical digital equipment.
Fair enough.
It
shouldn't be hard to locate or write an ASCII echo
program for testing the TTY. ?It's much more revealing of problems
than trying to type DIR commands in OS/8.
What about local echo? ... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore -
just throw it away and
get another one. They stand around in every corner.
They used to be common at the Dayton Hamvention. I picked up a news
TTY (w/modem in the pedestal) for $35 or $50 at Dayton about 25 years
ago. I still have it, but I removed the touch-tone keypad in a failed
attempt to turn it into a local-only TTY for my PDP-8 (I later got a
real console TTY) So now, this one answers the phone, but can't dial.
I last tested it calling into CompuServe shortly after I bought it.
It was great to see the login prompt in yellow and black.
I haven't seen a single TTY for sale at Dayton in at least 20 years.
-ethan
11:36 a.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Ethan Dicks wrote:
They used to be common at the Dayton Hamvention. I
picked up a news
TTY (w/modem in the pedestal) for $35 or $50 at Dayton about 25 years
ago. I still have it, but I removed the touch-tone keypad in a failed
attempt to turn it into a local-only TTY for my PDP-8 (I later got a
real console TTY) So now, this one answers the phone, but can't dial.
I last tested it calling into CompuServe shortly after I bought it.
It was great to see the login prompt in yellow and black.
I haven't seen a single TTY for sale at Dayton in at least 20 years.
I think they still use TTY's and modems for deaf people, so you still
have a small market for them.
-ethan
Ben.
3:09 a.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
I have seen some old computers the last years... But
the VT05 seems to be
nearly a phantom. I know there exist other VT05s.... I have just seen two
- in the same pile of stuff. And one is mine now. That's the only one
I've ever seen working - after repair :-)
True, I visited a fellow some weeks ago who had three(!), probably not
working. Other than that I've not seen any.
That's interesting. So I need to get a VT52, too.
Will manage that - I hope...
You seem to find everything cool, I'm sure you will pick one of these up
to :)
... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore -
just throw it away and
get another one. They stand around in every corner. I did not yet have to
throw one away, but...
I disagree, I just bought one last week and I've been looking for a
while. And I know others who has been looking to.
Anyway, my new toy will need some servicing, now I know where to turn
with my questions :D
Kind Regards,
Pontus.
11:07 a.m.
New subject: ASR-33, was Re: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
On May 13, 2009, at 3:09 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote:
Pardon me for jumping in, but on a recent big road trip (will tell
that story soon) I finally picked up two ASR-33s. I have been
looking for a long time. I gave one of them to Sridhar (he was with
me for part of that road trip), and I've had some luck getting the
remaining one mostly working.
It has an annoying issue with carriage return...If a CR is
received, and if the print mechanism hasn't moved far enough to the
right for the return action to build up enough momentum, friction
causes the carriage to stop before it gets far enough to the left, so
it doesn't trip the "the carriage has returned" lever. I don't know
if it's a lubrication issue or if the CR spring is worn out. I'm
pretty sure it's not the dash pot, as it doesn't get quite that far.
Does anyone have a spare top cover? Mine is shattered.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
... And if
your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it
away and
get another one. They stand around in every corner. I did not yet
have to
throw one away, but...
I disagree, I just bought one last week and I've been looking for a
while. And I know others who has been looking to.
Anyway, my new toy will need some servicing, now I know where to turn
with my questions :D 
2:24 p.m.
New subject: ASR-33, was Re: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
[ASR33]
It has an annoying issue with carriage return...If
a CR is
received, and if the print mechanism hasn't moved far enough to the
right for the return action to build up enough momentum, friction
causes the carriage to stop before it gets far enough to the left, so
it doesn't trip the "the carriage has returned" lever. I don't know
if it's a lubrication issue or if the CR spring is worn out. I'm
pretty sure it's not the dash pot, as it doesn't get quite that far.
My first thought was the dashpot adjustment, but you say 'it doesn't get
that far'. I assume by this you mean you've stepped the carriage over far
enough for the piston to be entirely out of the dashpot cylinder, and
when it gets a CR, the carriage returns, but not far enough for the
piston to enter the cylinder.
To me this sounds like gummy lubricants. I wouldn't run a second-hand
ASR33 (or any other piece of mechanical equipment, actually) without
going over all the lubrication points. Actually, I'd strip it down, clean
off the old oil and grease and put it back together again (this doesn't
take that long if you have the manuals -- I did my first one while still
at school (so I was working evenings and weekends), I didn't have the
manuals, and I was learning as I went, and it only took a couple of
weeks).
IIRC when it gets a crriage return, it lifts the pawls from the carriage
feed ratchet wheel at the front left side of the typing unit. At this
point the carriage is free to return (pullled by the spring), the pawls
only re-engage when it gets the next character. You should check this is
the case (if the pawls are not held off the ratchet wheel, then obviously
the carriage will be stopped). In the state where thhe pawls are lifted,
the carriage should move freely, you can move it by hand to see if it
seems to be sticking.
-tony
2:27 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore -
just throw it away
and get another one. They
No, I disagree. They're getting a lot rarer now, and I've enver found one
that can't be got going again.They're quite simple mechanisms, actually,
and make a welcome change for me from diging through PCBs of logic.
-tony
9:09 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Hi Tony,
No, I disagree. They're getting a lot rarer now,
Hm... That seems to be a question of the continent you're living on. Here
it's REALLY not too hard
to find an ASR33. Yes, they don't stand around in *every* corner, but can be found
from time to
time. Really not too hard.
and I've enver found one
that can't be got going again.
But if someone has robbed out half of the parts?
That's what I have in the basement.
Or if the covers are completely broken?
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
14 May
14 May
1:25 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
Hi Tony,
I thought we were both in the same continent. Last time I checked the UK
was part of Europe (although some of us wish it wasn't...)
ASR33s are not common in the UK. Apart from the 2 I own, I can't remember
seeing one in the last 5 years.
No, I disagree. They're getting a lot rarer
now,
Hm... That seems to be a question of the continent you're living on.
and I've
enver found one
that can't be got going again.
But if someone has robbed out half of the
parts? That's what I have in the basement. Or if the covers are completely broken?
Assuming you have most of the parts of the cover, I'd stick them together
with plastic weld, strenglen it with cotton fabric on the back (I am sure
I've described this trick before), etc.
-tony
13 May
13 May
4:58 p.m.
New subject: DEC VT05 with OS/8 -- basic system rebuild?
In article <4A0A6F35.9030502 at hachti.de>,
Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> writes:
... And if your 33 is really tooo bad to restore -
just throw it away
and get another one. They stand around in every corner. [...]
Can I have some of what you've been smoking?
Seriously, you're *way* out of touch with the current state of affairs
if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in
good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about
$300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have
been fairly scarce over the last year or so.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
14 May
14 May
4:28 a.m.
New subject: Vintage stuff here and there
Hi,
What do you need? Seems a bit
difficult to ship... And it's really scrap. To be clear: I never
scrapped a teletype myself! But I have two units in the basements where major parts have
been taken
out by someone else who used them to complete another unit. Not my fault.
... And if
your 33 is really tooo bad to restore - just throw it away
and get another one. They stand around in every corner. [...]
Can I have some of what you've been smoking? Seriously, you're *way* out of touch with the
current state of affairs
if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in
good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about
$300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have
been fairly scarce over the last year or so.
I disagree. I've been following
eBay for interesting stuff in the last years. Yes, prices are rising
here (Germany), too. But not like in the USA. We never saw a teletype with broken cover go
for $1400
or similar. But we see teletypes ending without bids sometimes. Especially model 35 units
when
they're to far away to pick up.
The heaviest I've seen so far was an incomplete PDP-8/L on eBay Germany going for
approx EUR 1900.
But that was exceptional and totally crazy.
From my point of view, collecting vintage computer stuff is a game. A bit like a
detective game.
Get information, investigate, find stuff. It's not a business thing. We here also
deliberately trade
our stuff. Or just taking or givin each other. Storage space capabilities are a more
important topic
than eBay prices. I think that makes a major difference between our little scene and
what's going on
in US (especially eBay US).
By the way, it was only about ASR33s. What's an ASR33? A pile of plastic and springs,
that makes a
lot of noise and is ugly inside. I prefer the 5 bit Teletype model 15 (ok, German license
builds) as
a beautiful mechanical machine (Two machines from my collection can be seen working in the
quite
recent "Valkyrie" movie). The model 28 and 35 are quite nice as well. M28 is
very rare here. Never
saw one. Only 35 and 33 are around here.
So would you save a machine like this?
http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg
That's the more usual state you find 33s here. The unit in the picture will go to
scrap, I'm pretty
sure. Could try to rescue it if anyone wants it. But shipping to US is very expensive.
Regards,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
6:03 a.m.
New subject: Vintage stuff here and there
In article <4A0BD628.3070700 at hachti.de>,
Philipp Hachtmann <hachti at hachti.de> writes:
Well, it appears we are comparing apples to oranges with me talking
about the US market and you talking about the EU/DE market.
Seriously,
you're *way* out of touch with the current state of affairs
if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in
good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about
$300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have
been fairly scarce over the last year or so.
I disagree. [...] So would you save a machine like this?
http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg
Personally, I would because I don't have a model 33, even in that
condition.
If I were encountering model 33s in that condition on a fairly regular
basis, I would gather them together to restore whole units from the
pieces. When I accumulated excess parts, I would make those available
for trade/sale to others who are attempting to restore their machines.
That particular teletype doesn't look in half bad condition to me, but
since I don't have piles of 33 teletypes laying around I'm no expert.
A model 33 is on my "to do" list, but given the pricing, I've been
focusing on other lower hanging fruit first.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
9:27 a.m.
New subject: Vintage stuff here and there
----------------------------------------
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
From: legalize at xmission.com
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 04:03:58 -0600
Subject: Re: Vintage stuff here and there
In article ,
Philipp Hachtmann writes:
Well, it appears we are comparing apples to oranges with me talking
about the US market and you talking about the EU/DE market.
Hi
Speaking of bits and pieces, I could use a tape
reader power supply for my 33.
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009
Seriously, you're *way* out of touch with the current state of affairs
if this is what you really think about model 33 teletypes. Units in
good cosmetic condition and working order sell on ebay for about
$300-400, fairly consistently for the last several years. They have
been fairly scarce over the last year or so.
I disagree. [...] So would you save a machine like this?
http://hachti.de/a1/img_0171_1024.jpg
Personally, I would because I don't have a model 33, even in that
condition.
If I were encountering model 33s in that condition on a fairly regular
basis, I would gather them together to restore whole units from the
pieces. When I accumulated excess parts, I would make those available
for trade/sale to others who are attempting to restore their machines.
That particular teletype doesn't look in half bad condition to me, but
since I don't have piles of 33 teletypes laying around I'm no expert.
A model 33 is on my "to do" list, but given the pricing, I've been
focusing on other lower hanging fruit first.
--
2:37 p.m.
New subject: Vintage stuff here and there
Speaking of bits and pieces, I could use a tape
reader power supply for my 33.
Is that this piece of "extra hardware"? Or
is it s.th. from inside? In the second case, there is
help for you.
Best wishes,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
8:59 p.m.
New subject: Vintage stuff here and there
----------------------------------------
Date: Thu, 14 May 2009 20:37:43 +0200
From: hachti at hachti.de
To:
Subject: Re: Vintage stuff here and there
Hi
It is a small board that is usually on the right
hand side of the printer, behind the line/local switch.
It has a power resistor, cap, molex connector ( I think
9 pin ).
Dwight
_________________________________________________________________
Windows Live?: Keep your life in sync.
http://windowslive.com/explore?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_BR_life_in_synch_052009
Speaking of bits and pieces, I could use a tape
reader power supply for my 33.
Is that this piece of "extra hardware"?
Or is it s.th. from inside? In the second case, there is
help for you.
Best wishes,
Philipp
--
http://www.hachti.de
15 May
15 May
1:15 p.m.
New subject: Vintage stuff here and there
[ASR33 Reader power supply]
Hi
It is a small board that is usually on the right
hand side of the printer=2C behind the line/local switch.
On machines with a floor stand, it's often clipped inside the stand at
the very top.
It has a power resistor=2C cap=2C molex connector ( I
think
9 pin ).
I am pretty sure it's a 15 pin connector (almost all connectors in the
Model 33 are 15 pin Molex 0.093" ones). There were some 3rd party
versions of the Model 33 with Teletype mechanics and other electronics
(the Data Synamics 390 is probably the most common one), and on those the
reader PSU is totally differnt (it may even be isolated from the power
line...). If you haer one of those machines all bets are off :-)
If you can't get the original Teletype one, I would have thought it would
be fairly easy to make one. I don't recall there being anything hard to
find on that PCB, and layout is not critical. You could make it on
tagstrip, for example.
-tony
11:06 p.m.
New subject: Vintage stuff here and there
----------------------------------------
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: Vintage stuff here and there
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Fri, 15 May 2009 18:15:34 +0100
[ASR33 Reader power supply]
Hi Tony
I have one I made, I just want an original one.
Dwight
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Hi
It is a small board that is usually on the right
hand side of the printer=2C behind the line/local switch.
On machines with a floor stand, it's often clipped inside the stand at
the very top.
It has a power resistor=2C cap=2C molex connector
( I think
9 pin ).
I am pretty sure it's a 15 pin connector (almost all connectors in the
Model 33 are 15 pin Molex 0.093" ones). There were some 3rd party
versions of the Model 33 with Teletype mechanics and other electronics
(the Data Synamics 390 is probably the most common one), and on those the
reader PSU is totally differnt (it may even be isolated from the power
line...). If you haer one of those machines all bets are off :-)
If you can't get the original Teletype one, I would have thought it would
be fairly easy to make one. I don't recall there being anything hard to
find on that PCB, and layout is not critical. You could make it on
tagstrip, for example.
-tony
16 May
16 May
1:03 a.m.
New subject: The ASR33 Basement....
Hi,
I just went to my basement. There are three partially dismantled ASR33 units sitting in
the shelves.
They can safely be considered as spares source.
All three units are without floor stand (I don't know where the floor stands are).
These are the spares I actually have (and even more, I assume):
* 1 PTR PSU board
* 1 DEC mod
* 2 intact cases (without hat)
* 1 fairly intact (and de-yellowed, was my retr0bright test part) yellow hat
* 2 typing cylinders
* 2-3 knobs
* 1-2 handles
* 2 aluminium face plates
* many screws
* most other pieces you can find on three machines. Some parts already missing.
I have to review my "normal" 33ASRs to see if I need the PTR PSU elsewhere
because I think I'm
missing the PTR PSU on at least one other machine. I further have to investigate if I
could use one
of the cases on another unit (One of my units is brand new and unused, still with the
bottom
cardboard stuff attached, but the case is badly broken).
If you have any other wishes, let me know and I'll look after the pieces during the
next two weeks.
My basement is 180km from my collection...just to explain...
Best wishes,
Philipp :-)
--
http://www.hachti.de
14 May
14 May
12:15 p.m.
New subject: [personal] Vintage stuff here and there
Philip,
By the way, it was only about ASR33s. What's an
ASR33? A pile of plastic
and springs, that makes a lot of noise and is ugly inside. I prefer the 5
bit Teletype model 15 (ok, German license builds) as a beautiful
mechanical machine
Each to his own.
saw one. Only 35 and 33 are around here.
35's seem to be rarer than 33's in Europe, you have seen them around ?
What is
the location of that machine, any idea of shipping cost to the UK ?.
Best regards,
Mike Hatch
Web - www.soemtron.org
PDP-7 - www.soemtron.org/pdp7.html
Email - mike at soemtron.org
Looking for a PDP-7 (some hope!) and an ASR33
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philipp Hachtmann" <hachti at hachti.de>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 14, 2009 9:28 AM
Subject: [personal] Vintage stuff here and there
>
> By the way, it was only about ASR33s. What's an ASR33? A pile of plastic
> and springs, that makes a lot of noise and is ugly inside. I prefer the 5
> bit Teletype model 15 (ok, German license builds) as a beautiful
> mechanical machine (Two machines from my collection can be seen working in
> the quite recent "Valkyrie" movie). The model 28 and 35 are quite nice as
> well. M28 is very rare here. Never saw one. Only 35 and 33 are around
> here.
>
> So would you save a machine like this?
>
> That's the more usual state you find 33s here. The unit in the picture
> will go to scrap, I'm pretty sure. Could try to rescue it if anyone wants
> it. But shipping to US is very expensive.
>
> Regards,
>
> Philipp
>
>
>
>
> --
> http://www.hachti.de
>
>
>
4:26 p.m.
New subject: [personal] Vintage stuff here and there
2009/5/14 Mike Hatch <mike at brickfieldspark.org>:
35's seem to be rarer than 33's in Europe, you
have seen them around ?
I know of two or three 35s in Europe. If you're after one, I know at
least one of them is looking for a new owner - drop me a line off-list
of you're interested.
Cheers,
--
Steve Maddison
http://www.cosam.org/
5527
days inactive
5541
days old
34 comments
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ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
bqt＠softjar.se -
chd_1＠nktelco.net -
chrise＠pobox.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
hachti＠hachti.de -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mike＠brickfieldspark.org -
pontus＠Update.UU.SE -
rick＠rickmurphy.net -
steve＠cosam.org -
vrs＠msn.com