On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:02 PM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote: Leave it to me to think that someone means a machine shop when really they're talking about computers. It's not like this is a computer related list or anything. :-P brian

On Wed, Apr 29, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Ray Arachelian <ray at arachelian.com> wrote: lol I've seen it before. My wife pointed that out to me once I described the square. I still think it's a great idea. brian

On Wed, 2009-04-29 at 14:09 -0700, Vernon Wright wrote: Chain hoist. Gordon

--- On Wed, 4/29/09, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: Yeah, but I'd want the top trailer (for the view and other reasons), and that's ~35ft AGL. And there isn't anything above for a skyhook. Guess I'm condemned to my ground-floor apt. Vern Wright

--- On Thu, 4/30/09, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: Somehow that collage looks rather unsubstantial, and I don't think I'd want to trust it. Of course I could sink a 40 ft hole into the ground and use a hydraulic shaft elevator... :) Vern Wright

--- On Wed, 4/29/09, falco at ihug.co.nz <falco at ihug.co.nz> wrote: Yes. Very yes. 4116's need -5v from the power supply. They also run very hot. They're pretty unreliable, and a common source of problems in machines. Not to say they're terrible - they are good for what they are... but they are nowhere near as reliable as 4164's Note that with a little modification, you can make 4164's work in the place of 4116's. They have almost the same pinout, they don't use -5v, and they run much cooler. -Ian

I'd use a pair of 4464's in a smal perfoboard. BTW I have two apple ][+ I'm planning in doing just this mod.

Here is what I did when I had to put 512K in an old MSX: http://www.tabajara-labs.com.br/msx/512k_wavy/

Babbelfish is there to be used :D It spits a "macarroni" english but you can understand most of the page :o) There are more on the page, feel free to explore, I do love to repair things ;o)

Yeah, I did use Babel Fish in the past (just hope Yahoo don't close it like they are with Geocities - going in the next few onths incase anyone else here has a site on there and didn't know), but I had forgotten all about it. I am on annual leave until 11th May, so have plenty of time to check out your site :) ========== And there are lots of new things to put up on site, unfortunately I'm so out of time. I wanted to do it bilingual, but I cannot find someone to help me. The work of translation the entire site is too cumbersome. Maybe I'll try some day

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 2:57 PM, Mr Ian Primus <ian_primus at yahoo.com> wrote: Ah... that makes perfect sense. Sure. Hmm... I have so many 4164s that I'm not horrified to mod the chip, and I might have to do that if there isn't enough vertical clearance (not an issue in a PET, but might be an issue in the TRS-80 Model III). As for a socket mod, how does this sound? ... Take a 16-pin machined-pin socket. Poke out pin 1 (-5V). Poke out pin 8 (+12V). Take another 16-pin machined-pin socket. Remove pin 1 on it as well. Break off the pin tail from pin 8 so that it won't dangle into the socket below. Install a jumper wire from the modified pin 8 to pin 9 (+5V). Install that socket on top of the previously modified socket (the one with pins 1 and 8 missing). Insert a 4164 into the top socket. Install the stack into a 4116 socket on the target board. Repeat 7 times for a bank of 8. I think I can find the used 4164s I removed from my DEC Professional 350 when I upgraded it to two banks of 41256s. I think that would be a suitable source of parts to upgrade a PET - a donation from another classic machine. Good to know, but I have so many 4164s that I'm unlikely to use 41256s. -ethan

--- On Thu, 4/30/09, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: Yeah, and 4164's are pretty easy to come by. I don't worry about modifying the individual chips - but then again, I'm typically only using modified chips to replace individual failed 4116's. Sounds like it would work perfectly. The only issue I would have with it is that the two machine pin sockets you would need cost more than the 4164's do, and you have to purchase those sockets new - whereas you can scavenge 4164's from junked XT clone boards. :) Yeah, and 41256's are much harder to get - I just brought it up as a just-in-case. I once spent an afternoon using a propane torch to scavenge soldered-in 41256's from scrap HP printer boards in an attempt to upgrade a Sun VME machine. In many instances, it's actually easier to modify the board to take 4164's than it is to modify the chips or build adapters. But, again, that's not very original, and involves hacking the board. I typically only use these one at a time when necessary to replace bad chips (because I don't have any spare 4116's). I know a common modification on Wiliams arcade games like Defender or Robotron (which use piles of 4116's) is to simply replace all the chips with 4164's and modify the board (two trace cuts and one kludge wire) to take them. Or, in the case of the game, since nothing else on the board uses 12v or -5v, you can actually build an adapter for the power connector that disconnects the -5v, and routes the +5v to the +12v line - and then just plug 4164's straight in with no modification. It really depends on your application, and how the board you're installing them in is set up. Do whatever works best for you and the particular machine you are repairing. But you can definitely, replace 4116's with 4164's with minor modifcations and expect it to work just fine. -Ian

--- On Thu, 4/30/09, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote: I graduated to a heat gun years ago as well. I don't know why I didn't think of it sooner. The torch was a pain in the neck to use - not to mention having to buy more fuel for it. Yeah - might as well wire it for 4164's then. You're welcome! Yes, like you, I try to work with what I've already got. I had the same problem, quite a while ago - I needed 4116's and had none. So I looked up the pinouts and used the 4164's I already had laying around. And I know that many others have done the same. Definitely not the first time I've had to modify some part to replace an unavailable or not-on-hand part. -Ian

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 5:35 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: I have no interest in crappy sockets, used, new, or free. :-P I reuse machined-pin sockets all the time. Last year, I pulled several lbs of sockets from a stack of scrapped boards. I did find that occasionally they were difficult to mount in new boards because of solder build-up and bumps and tight through-holes, but it was nothing that couldn't be gotten around. Now that I have so many used sockets, I'll probably try to use them first in projects and keep the fresh ones for stacked-socket uses where I want solder-free pins. -ethan

The differences are : Pin 4116 4164 1 -5V N/C 8 +12V +5V 9 +5V A7 IIRC (but do check this). (Note that pin 16 is ground -- the main power and ground pins are still the diagonally-opposite ones you'd expect, but they're the other way round to the normal configuration!) So what you need to do is isolate pin 1, disconnect pin 8 from the PCB and connect it to pin 9 (or another source of 5V). This will use 1/4 of the chip (A7 will be tied high, rememebr it's a multiplexed address, so effectively 2 pits of the full address are forced to '1's). One problem could be the refresh. Obviously with A7 tied high, the chip only sees a 7 bit refresh (on pins A0-A6). Some 4164s only needed a 7 bit refresh anyway (so no problem), of the others, many will refresh the cells in use if A7 is tied high (it may not refresh some of the cells that are never used, in the remaining 3/4 of the chip, but that shouldn't matter). FWIW, I've done this a couple of times using randomly selected 4164s, and had no problems I normally do it by a little kludge. Namely bend out pins 1 and 8, and solder a jumper wire on top of the package between the bent-out pin 8 and and pin 9. Stick it in the 4116 socket, making sure that pins 1 and 8 do not make contact with the socket. -tony

On Thu, Apr 30, 2009 at 6:05 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: But wasn't that board designed to reroute/disconnect -5V and +12V to the memory array without soldering, or was some minor re-work required for the earliest rev 5150 motherboard? -ethan

A word of warning if you want to use all of the 4164 (as opposed to the mods we've been discussing so far that only use 1/4 of it) : Make sure you remove all the decoupling capacitors on what used to be the +5V line in the RAM array, and which becomes the A7 line. Typically there's 0.1uF per chip, and no normal driver is going to drive a 1uF capacitor to ground (i.e. 10 of the decouplers in parallel) without major timing problems. Yes, the is the voice of experience. The Epson QX10 graphics board can be populated with either 4116s or 4164s. There are jumper links to select which ones are fitted,they basically do the pin-swaps we've been talking about. What none of the manuals point out is that if you fit 4164s, you _must_ remove the decoupling capacitors, or you get 'interesting' screen displays. One of my QX10s came to me non-working because the previous owner ad fitted 4164s, had done the link swaps correctly, but left the capacitors in. I spent some time sorting that one out... -tony

www.datasheetarchive.com is your friend :o)

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: I'll bite, what are these going for? Zane

On Wed, 29 Apr 2009, Brian Lanning wrote: Looks like I have two problems, one is that they're probably going to cost more than I could afford, and secondly it doesn't sound like I'll be able to get one delivered where I was thinking of. Those who are soon to be our neighbors don't know how lucky they are. :-) Zane

Dave McGuire wrote: Unmodified shipping containers are not at all suitable for storage of electronics or paper. Much of the CHAC and Perham Foundation collections were destroyed by storing them in shipping containers and sitting them on the ground in San Jose. The problem is they are sealed. Once moisture enters throught he wooden floor, the heat from the sun turns the inside into a steam bath. At a minimum you have to add ventilation and modify the floors to prevent moisture On ocean trips, The contents of those containers are sealed with desiccant, since water can get inside. We had a couple of wet packing crates inside of an ocean container in the process of getting the Dortmund collection to CHM.

---------------------------------------- Hi Don't set them on the ground and I keep some desicent(sp?) inside. That is what I've done. I have two of those small driers. I add stuff to them about once every month in the winter. One could also seal the floor but you still want ventilated air between the wood floor and the soil. I've had it for two winters and not seen any problems yet. I am in California but it is in the mountains where there is a lot of rain. Dwight _________________________________________________________________ Rediscover Hotmail?: Get quick friend updates right in your inbox. http://windowslive.com/RediscoverHotmail?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Rediscover_Up…

Here in the dumping ground ( California ) you can get a 40 footer for $900... / Steven ----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Lanning" <brianlanning at gmail.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Wednesday, April 29, 2009 1:36 PM Subject: Re: machine room in a trailer? wrote:

Brian Lanning wrote: I think many of us would be worried about that in a classic computer context, too :-) Those trailers aren't particularly sturdy. Gut the thing, pull the floors out, strengthen the chassis, build an interior 2x4" frame, lay down stronger floors, line the walls / ceiling and make the joints tight... whilst also worrying about AC, heating, and presumably some form of fire suppression crap... Unless it *has* to be a trailer, I think I'd be looking at a panel truck or bus as a donor rather than a trailer - stronger from the outset and with its own motive power source (plus it'd be easier to add electricity generation, power the AC etc.) Live on a boat or bus. The former's pretty common in the UK, and the latter in NZ... cheers Jules

Richard wrote: Yes, until your later post I wasn't sure what you were hoping to achieve. Something 'portable' for taking to events would be kind of fun, though :) Might be worth investigating anyway - deliveries are needed to warehouses, so it's a possibility they designed the door height so that a smaller van would be able to back inside. cheers Jules

In article <f4eb766f0904301018v2896c3bjaad7899b16c2b397 at mail.gmail.com>, Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes: SGI had an 18-wheeler trailer that they had configured this way with sufficient cooling, etc., that they used to demonstrate their high end machines. They toured the bus around the country doing demos at various universities and whatnot. I saw these at the UofU in the early/mid 90s. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

The military has been putting computers in trailers (or mobile boxes) for a very long time. I seem to recall a co-worker who spent time with a computer-in-a-trailer at Tan Son Nhut during the Vietnam conflict. --Chuck

Many years ago, a fellow that I knew was making a clean-room out of one (relatively trivial to create positive pressure with filtered incoming air). His intended use was not for computers.

In article <20090429200925.GE19665 at n0jcf.net>, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes: If I could afford that, I wouldn't need to ask about building one. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

In article <49F89DC8.10803 at vaxen.net>, Doc <doc at vaxen.net> writes: Reasonable idea. I've seen surplus environment controlled trailers for sale on govliquidation. Here's the larger context. We're moving our gear from a smaller (2,000sqft), cramped, rented warehouse to a larger (10,000sqft), roomier rented warehouse. We will move again because my main benefactor wants to own, not rent. First, I wanted to get a reasonably cost effective way to subdivide the larger space into an environmentally controlled area. It *might* be possible to just back a trailer into this warehouse, I haven't measured the doors. Second, I was thinking that if everything was inside a trailer, then when we move to the next location I could just relocate the trailer once and not have to deal with teardown/buildup at the new location unless its a permanent one. Other ideas on how to subdivide a large open space into a machine room at a reasonable cost are welcome. The target machine load currently includes: - SGI Challenge XL - SGI Onyx XL - 4 rack SGI Reality Monster - 2 deskside Origin 2000s - 2 SGI 4D/310 VGX - 2 deskside Onyx - 1 deskside Crimson - PDP-11/03 w/dual RL01s in BA23 cabinet - 2 E&S ESVs (same side as deskside Onyx) The SGI and E&S gear eat a fair amount of current, requiring 15A supplies minimum. I'm also interested in hearing about the cheapest way to get the electrics wired, preferably from someone who's done it (Sridhar? Will Donzelli?). -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

In article <49F8C922.3020704 at gmail.com>, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> writes: n I've got an EE degree, so I'm not a complete klutz when it comes to electricity, but I'm not a practicing electrician. Putting the issue of permits and inspections aside for a moment (I know DIY is possible in my area), I'm more interested in hearing about how to plan out the necessary junctions, cabling, outlets, breakers, etc. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>

In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.0904291442530.6884 at slate.spiritone.com>, "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes: Yeah, I have considered that too. I suppose it will come down to "whatever's cheapest". I was hoping that with a trailer on the cheap, I might be able to save on some basic construction costs. It appears that there is 3-phase supply to the building. Its just not built out from there. I also forgot to mention another beast for electrics: - CDC CC545 console. Needs weird power. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download <http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html> Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>