16 Dec
2012
16 Dec
'12
8:32 p.m.
------------------------------
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 8:19 PM PST Chris Tofu wrote:
------------------------------
On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 6:33 PM PST Chuck Guzis wrote:
Ill spill the
beans. I had aspirations of turning it into something scientific. Rom swap or what have
you. Naive I guess. Anyone want to make an offer? Barely used.
On 12/16/2012 05:39 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
What would be the difference, internally, between it and other horizontal models?
Of what vintage? A modern HP12C has very little in common with a
vintage HP16C.
--Chuck
I didn know that. I bought it at Wallyworld say 10 years ago. 
22 Dec
22 Dec
2:47 p.m.
Soory for the time in replying my ISP has been on the blink again...
Ill spill the beans. I had aspirations of turning it
into something
scientific. Rom swap or what have you. Naive I guess. Anyone want to
Good luck, you're goign to need it ;-)
The earlier 'Voyager' series machines contained 2 chips. One was the
processor and keyboard interface, called 'NUT'. The other contained
everything else -- ROM, RAM and Display Driver (and is called R2D2, I kid
you not). The processor is similar, but not identical, to that used in
the HP41 series, so at least the instruction set is known.
But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either you have to find a way of
making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not
trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the
same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of
R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display
driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus,
this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41.
And finally you have to fit it all in the case.
-tony
4:20 p.m.
On 12/22/2012 02:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either you
have to find a way of
making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not
trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the
same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of
R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display
driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus,
this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41.
And finally you have to fit it all in the case.
You know, I still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm
working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are
within reach.
Nowadays, it should be pretty simple for one to take a micropower MCU
such as a TI MSP430 series chip that also has an LCD interface on it and
turn it into just about any specialized calculator that one could
imagine. Select an FRAM variety and you won't even need any power to
keep memory alive.
--Chuck
4:22 p.m.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 12/22/2012 02:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something like that. See
http://www.swissmicros.com/
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either
you have to find a way of
making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not
trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the
same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of
R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display
driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus,
this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41.
And finally you have to fit it all in the case.
You know, I still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm
working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are
within reach.
Nowadays, it should be pretty simple for one to take a micropower MCU such as
a TI MSP430 series chip that also has an LCD interface on it and turn it into
just about any specialized calculator that one could imagine. Select an FRAM
variety and you won't even need any power to keep memory alive.
4:49 p.m.
On 12/22/2012 04:22 PM, David Griffith wrote:
Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something like
that. See
http://www.swissmicros.com/
At about $1.10 USD per swiss franc, that's a heckuva deal, particularly
when compared with what small-audience calculators like the 16C sell for
used.
I'm sore tempted...
--Chuck
26 Dec
26 Dec
1:59 p.m.
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
At about $1.10 USD per swiss franc, that's a heckuva deal, particularly when compared
with what small-audience calculators like the 16C sell for used.
I'm sore tempted...
C: They're so small
23 Dec
23 Dec
10:10 a.m.
On 12/22/2012 04:22 PM, David Griffith wrote:
Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something like
that. See
http://www.swissmicros.com/
Just got an email back from the fellow at swissmicro.com to my inquiry
about the size. Sadly, although the operation and appearance is the
same as the original Voyager line, they're all the size of a credit
card. At my age, I don't need another gizmo that I can't read the key
legends of without a magnifying glass.
Darn.
--Chuck
10:37 a.m.
On 2012-12-23 11:10, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 12/22/2012 04:22 PM, David Griffith wrote:
And the keys are different too, aren't they?
On the prototypes at least, it is just a foil :(
Indeed, someone in Switzerland is doing something
like that. See
http://www.swissmicros.com/
Just got an email back from the fellow at swissmicro.com to my inquiry
about the size. Sadly, although the operation and appearance is the
same as the original Voyager line, they're all the size of a credit
card. At my age, I don't need another gizmo that I can't read the key
legends of without a magnifying glass. 
22 Dec
22 Dec
4:37 p.m.
On 12/22/2012 07:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
"Still"? Have they gone out of style or something?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
But, if you
want to re-code the RO, then either you have to find a way of
making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not
trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the
same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of
R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display
driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus,
this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41.
And finally you have to fit it all in the case.
You know, I still find calculators darned handy, 
5:59 p.m.
To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific
ones.
Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P (the second computer I used, vintage 1979)
On Dec 22, 2012, at 7:55 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 12/22/2012 04:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
"Still"? Have they gone out of style
or something?
Apparently. There's an "app" for that, you know...
--Chuck
6:17 p.m.
On 12/22/2012 05:59 PM, James Lynch wrote:
To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn
calculators but not scientific ones.
That is odd--the kids today seem to get the TI graphing calculators. I
don't know what a current HP calculator with the same functionality
would be.
--Chuck
23 Dec
23 Dec
4:46 a.m.
On Dec 22, 2012, at 21:17, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
On 12/22/2012 05:59 PM, James Lynch wrote:
It's all because of the highly successful money-extraction
machine known as "standardized testing". The only
graphing calculators allowed in the room during the
SAT are the TI ones (though I don't honestly recall
having needed anything more advanced than square
root on the SAT; the G'RE doesn't allow calculators at
all). As a result, TI can get away with selling the same
machine they were selling 10 years ago (with minor tweaks)
for the same price as 10 years ago.
- Dave
To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial
rpn calculators but not scientific ones.
That is odd--the kids today seem to get the TI graphing calculators. I don't know
what a current HP calculator with the same functionality would be. 
10:58 a.m.
On Sun, 23 Dec 2012, David Riley wrote:
It's all because of the highly successful
money-extraction
machine known as "standardized testing". The only
graphing calculators allowed in the room during the
SAT are the TI ones (though I don't honestly recall
having needed anything more advanced than square
root on the SAT; the G'RE doesn't allow calculators at
all). As a result, TI can get away with selling the same
machine they were selling 10 years ago (with minor tweaks)
for the same price as 10 years ago.
45 years ago, for the SATs, Kurtas were not permitted,
although that was NOT explicitly stated in the rules.
Slide rules were explicitly forbidden.
However, they permitted, and ENCOURAGED! bringing scratch paper,
even graph paper!
After MY group took the SATs,
they changed the rules banning your own scratch paper,
in order to stop "origami with logarithmic graph paper"
1:57 p.m.
To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not
?
scientific ones.
Techncially, HP don;t make any calcualtors any more :-(. They are al
lsubcontracted. But apart form that...
What about the HP50G. RPL is a much purer RPN system than the
4-level-stack thing used by older HP calcuators, which IMHO has a lot of
inconsistenceies.
-tony
26 Dec
26 Dec
2:02 p.m.
From: James Lynch <jelynch at stny.rr.com>
To me, it's odd that hp still makes financial rpn calculators but not scientific
ones.
C: The 50g has RPN as well as algebraic mode.
23 Dec
23 Dec
1:55 p.m.
You know, I
still find calculators darned handy,
"Still"? Have they gone out of style or something?
3:05 p.m.
On 12/23/2012 04:55 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on smartphones now.
I have HP48 and HP41 apps on my iPhone. I use them both a lot. But I
have both at my desk, and a few more in the lab.
Everyone I work with has a calculator at their desk. I'm not so sure
about this "rest of the world" thing.
You know, I still find calculators darned handy,
"Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? Nut you
show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at it. With a
bit of practice you can use a calcualtor by feel alone, meaining you can
watch some instrument or other and enter the readings as they happen
Yup.
And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with
cutting oil and metal
swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-)
Gads, man! Take better care of those HPs! They don't grow on trees,
and prices have gone through the roof. :-(
(my beloved 28S just lost functionality in a few of its keys...)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
14 Jan
14 Jan
1:19 p.m.
And I wonder
how touchcreans like being coated with cutting oil and metal
swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-)
Gads, man! Take better care of those HPs! They don't grow on trees,
and prices have gone through the roof. :-(
(my beloved 28S just lost functionality in a few of its keys...)
I bought the first 28C I saw. I stopped using it when the HP48 came out
(yes, I bought hte firsto ne of those I saw too). The reason was that the
28 didn't ahve any way to back up your programws. The 48 has a serial
port and kermit.
-tony
23 Dec
23 Dec
3:09 p.m.
On Sun, 23 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on
smartphones now. Nut you
show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at it. With a
bit of practice you can use a calcualtor by feel alone, meaining you can
watch some instrument or other and enter the readings as they happen
But, on MOST calculators, you still need to look at it to read the
display.
And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with
cutting oil and metal
swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-)
can't wipe them off?
not all calculator keyboards are well sealed.
But, calculator keyboards have some FEEL to them.
What's with "tap"/"double tap"/"long tap", etc?
I got a POS tablet to play with Android. ($50!)
It's sold by Polaroid, but there's no camera;
made by Southwest Bell?, but there's no phone.
plethora of "aps", but only available if your
device is blessed by Google-Play! The PolaDroid is NOT.
Now I need to find and download a GOOD calculator "ap"
24 Dec
24 Dec
10:17 a.m.
You can always download "black market" and the rest is up to you :)
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Sunday, December 23, 2012 9:09 PM
Subject: Re: HP 12c
On Sun, 23 Dec 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
I am told the trest of the world use
'apps' on smartphones now. Nut you
show me a touchscreen that can be operated without looking at it. With a
bit of practice you can use a calcualtor by feel alone, meaining you can
watch some instrument or other and enter the readings as they happen
But, on MOST calculators, you still need to look at it to read the
display.
And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated
with cutting oil and metal
swarf? My HP calcualtorss don't seem to mind :-)
can't wipe them off?
not all calculator keyboards are well sealed.
But, calculator keyboards have some FEEL to them.
What's with "tap"/"double tap"/"long tap", etc?
I got a POS tablet to play with Android. ($50!)
It's sold by Polaroid, but there's no camera;
made by Southwest Bell?, but there's no phone.
plethora of "aps", but only available if your
device is blessed by Google-Play! The PolaDroid is NOT.
Now I need to find and download a GOOD calculator "ap" 
23 Dec
23 Dec
6:41 p.m.
You know, I still find calculators darned handy,
"Still"? Have they gone out of style or something? Nut you show me a touchscreen that can be operated
without looking at
it.
Most "smart"phones have them in the hardware sense, though the software
driving them usually does not use them in such a way. (All that's
needed is to use gesture recognition rather than touch location to
drive input.)
And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated with
cutting oil and
metal swarf?
I have seen some that work fine when still coated with their
factory-installed scratch-protection plastic, so I feel reasonably sure
they wouldn't mind.
Now, how the rest of the thing would feel about it, that's another
question. Lots of palmtop comput^W^Wsmartphones strike me as being
very cheaply built and therefore fragile. (I have seen a few which
don't; their owners have told me they are expensive, as such things go.)
Not that I would expect you to find them satisfactory, mind you. I
feel reasonably sure they don't meet your repairability criteria.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
7:28 p.m.
I still use a hp34c. Know all the keys and its LED display comes in handy if you wake up
in the middle of the night and want to make a calculation. Of the six hp calculators I
have, the hp 34c is my absolute favorite.
Cheers.
Sent from my Ohio Challenger 2P
On Dec 23, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
I am told the trest of the world use 'apps' on
smartphones now.
Indeed. :(
You know, I
still find calculators darned handy,
"Still"? Have they gone out of
style or something? Nut you show me a touchscreen that can be
operated without looking at
it.
Most "smart"phones have them in the hardware sense, though the software
driving them usually does not use them in such a way. (All that's
needed is to use gesture recognition rather than touch location to
drive input.)
And I wonder how touchcreans like being coated
with cutting oil and
metal swarf?
I have seen some that work fine when still coated with their
factory-installed scratch-protection plastic, so I feel reasonably sure
they wouldn't mind.
Now, how the rest of the thing would feel about it, that's another
question. Lots of palmtop comput^W^Wsmartphones strike me as being
very cheaply built and therefore fragile. (I have seen a few which
don't; their owners have told me they are expensive, as such things go.)
Not that I would expect you to find them satisfactory, mind you. I
feel reasonably sure they don't meet your repairability criteria.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:53 p.m.
On 12/22/2012 02:47 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although
nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My
16C lives on my electornics workbench. Alongside this PC keyboard I have
a 12C (I use it a 4-banger mostly, but at least it's RPN, albeit a
4-level stack version). I often use my 49G when doing metalwork, if only
to work out things like '1.5" - 3.2mm, and lets have the result in
inches', along with calcuating angles, amounts to mill off to convert a
circular bar into aregualr polygon of a given numebr of sides (e.g. when
making hexagonal spacers) and so on. I routinely use an HP71B (is that a
calculator) with HPIL and an HP82169 HPIB translator to test HPIB stuff.
And so on.
Quite simply tese machines do more things, and are easir to use, tan any
'app' o on a smartphone or whatever.
But, if you want to re-code the RO, then either
you have to find a way of
making the ROM i nthe R2D2 chip invisible to the processor (which is not
trivial, given that the address and data is transered serially over the
same line (ISA) and that this singal is needed fro the otehr sections of
R2D2) or you haev to somehow rebuild the functions of the RAM and display
driver. Then you have to interface an EPROM or sinmialr to the Nut bus,
this is essetially the same as making a ROM box or MLDL unit for an HP41.
And finally you have to fit it all in the case.
You know, I still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm
working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are
within reach. Nowadays, it should be pretty simple for one to take a
micropower MCU
such as a TI MSP430 series chip that also has an LCD interface on it and
It is. At the last HPCC conference one of the members (not me)
demonstrated some simple calcualtors he'd knocked up using A PIC and an
ARM microcotroller. Others around the world have done simialr things. The
only difficult part is writing the firmware, particualrly if you want it
to handle rounding erors properly.
-tony
3:03 p.m.
On 12/23/2012 01:53 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Well, I guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor
collector (although
nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My
16C lives on my electornics workbench.
If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22.
However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the price of this
never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere.
--Chuck
14 Jan
14 Jan
1:15 p.m.
My home intenrnet connection seems to be back for the momnet....
I am not clever enough to use a non-stack-based calcualtor, so it
virtually has ot be an HP in my case. The 16C has all the functions I
need on the electronics bench, line ANDs, ORs, rotates, etc.
Well, I guess
I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although
nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them. My
16C lives on my electornics workbench.
If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22. However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the
price of this
never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere.
That certainly applies to the HP16C...
-tony
1:52 p.m.
However, I imagine that the collectors have driven the
price of this
never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere.
That certainly applies to the HP16C...
-tony
HP16C on ebay http://www.ebay.com/ctg/HP-16C-Scientific-Calculator-/92889141
$250
HP 12C on ebay
http://compare.ebay.com/like/160941451346?var=lv<yp=AllFixedPriceItem…
&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y&bigimg=y starting at $29
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6031 - Release Date: 01/13/13
3:47 p.m.
In case some may noy know,
there is the HP16C Emulator:
http://www.hp16c.net/
"The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows
Vista and Win 7. "
Keven Miller
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2013 02:15 PM
Subject: Re: HP 12c
My home intenrnet connection seems to be back for the
momnet....
I am not clever enough to use a non-stack-based calcualtor, so it
virtually has ot be an HP in my case. The 16C has all the functions I
need on the electronics bench, line ANDs, ORs, rotates, etc.
Well, I
guess I am somethign of an HP calcualtor collector (although
nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_ them.
My
16C lives on my electornics workbench.
If it were to be a workbench calculator, I'd want a nice TI SR-22. However, I imagine that the collectors have
driven the price of this
never-common calculator to somewhere in the stratosphere.
That certainly applies to the HP16C...
-tony
4:44 p.m.
On 01/14/2013 03:47 PM, Keven Miller (rtt) wrote:
In case some may noy know,
there is the HP16C Emulator:
http://www.hp16c.net/
"The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows
Vista and Win 7. "
There is a big difference--the real 16C has real keys and can slip into
a pocket. A set of batteries lasts for years (figure on 7-10 years per
set). There's also the Swiss guy with his credit-card sized 16C with a
membrane keyboard--too small for my old eyes.
But no *real* 16Cs kicking around cheap.
--Chuck
15 Jan
15 Jan
11:34 a.m.
In case some may noy know,
there is the HP16C Emulator:
http://www.hp16c.net/
"The HP16C Emulator will operate under Windows 2000, Windows XP, Windows
Vista and Win 7. "
Look, if I had space for a PC on my workbench (or on top of the
minicomputer I'm repairing, or...) then I am sure I could find soemthing
to ru no it. The thing about a calculator is that it's small enough to go
to the problem. I have no problems in fitting my 16C, or even a 48/49 in
my toolkit, and of putting it on the bench, or on top of the unit I'm
repairing or...
That's quite apart from the fact that many calculator emulators display a
picoture of the keyboard on the screen and expect you to use a moust to
press the kleys, at least for the more exotic functions. A real
clacualtor keyboard is a lot faster and easier to use.
-tony
24 Dec
24 Dec
10:11 a.m.
You know, I
still find calculators darned handy, particularly when I'm
working on the system. My HP16C is never far from my mouse, so both are
within reach.
nowhere near as serious about it as some), but I certainly _use_
them. My
16C lives on my electornics workbench. Alongside this PC keyboard I have
4358
days inactive
4387
days old
31 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
emu＠e-bbes.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
jelynch＠stny.rr.com -
kevenm＠reeltapetransfer.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
rampaginggreenhulk＠yahoo.com -
sales＠elecplus.com