6 Feb
2013
6 Feb
'13
5:39 p.m.
I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of how the computer
became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by
experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the
computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of
the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but
who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society
for good or ill. Vintage computers, the beginning era, has been
subsumed by a technology so rapidly advancing it threatens to
overwhelm us yet I still look back with fondness and I hope we can
revive some of that era?s experimentation if only to validate a true
hacker ethic.
Murray--
7 Feb
7 Feb
12:16 p.m.
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote:
I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the story of
how the computer
became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by
experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the
computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of
the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but
who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society
for good or ill.
no
No
NO
NO!
30 years ago, the suits came in and EXTERMINATED the technocrats,
nerds and geeks.
"Consumer electronics is too important to let them
[technocrats, nerds, and geeks] have a say in it."
1:25 p.m.
On 2/7/13 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote:
LOL! Ain't that the truth! :-D
Dave Land
Land Computer Service
I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the
story of how the computer
became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by
experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the
computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of
the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but
who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society
for good or ill.
no
No
NO
NO!
30 years ago, the suits came in and EXTERMINATED the technocrats,
nerds and geeks.
"Consumer electronics is too important to let them
[technocrats, nerds, and geeks] have a say in it." 
1:41 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Dave Land wrote:
On 2/7/13 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
An effective counter would be enforcing a law that said anyone with an MBA
couldn't be in any position above the janitor.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote:
LOL! Ain't that the truth! :-D
I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the
story of how the computer
became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by
experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the
computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of
the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but
who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society
for good or ill.
no
No
NO
NO!
30 years ago, the suits came in and EXTERMINATED the technocrats,
nerds and geeks.
"Consumer electronics is too important to let them
[technocrats, nerds, and geeks] have a say in it."
2:57 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, geneb wrote:
An effective counter would be enforcing a law that
said anyone with an MBA
couldn't be in any position above the janitor.
Please don't destroy the quality of the custodial staff!
We need them!
HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while.
But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political
campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California
Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher
retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and
abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
0.859 semesters before I go after those benefits!
3:04 p.m.
On Feb 7, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while.
But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political
campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California
Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher
retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and
abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP?
There's a reason I left HP after HP bought where I was working (ArcSight.)
After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall at HP.
I'm glad I left when I did.
8 Feb
8 Feb
3:56 p.m.
The same reason I left EDS after HP destroyed it. And we thought it
couldn't get any worse..
On Feb 7, 2013 8:17 PM, "Jonathan Katz" <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
On Feb 7, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at
xenosoft.com> wrote:
HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while.
But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political
campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California
Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher
retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and
abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP?
There's a reason I left HP after HP bought where I was working (ArcSight.)
After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall
at HP. I'm glad I left when I did.
4:10 p.m.
On 08/02/2013 20:56, John Many Jars wrote:
The same reason I left EDS after HP destroyed it. And
we thought it
couldn't get any worse..
On Feb 7, 2013 8:17 PM, "Jonathan Katz" <jon at jonworld.com> wrote:
I only just joined from Digital and Compaq, and I got chucked because I
wasn't making enough money....
... I was doing bid responses, how can you make money if you don't
respond to tenders...
> On Feb 7, 2013, at 2:57 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin
at xenosoft.com> wrote:
>> HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while.
>> But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political
>> campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California
>> Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher
>> retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and
>> abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP?
> There's a reason I left HP after HP bought where I was working (ArcSight.)
>
> After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw the writing on the wall
> at HP. I'm glad I left when I did.
>
5:12 p.m.
On 8 February 2013 21:10, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
I only just joined from Digital and Compaq, and I got
chucked because I
wasn't making enough money....
... I was doing bid responses, how can you make money if you don't respond
to tenders...
I was (along with others) maintaining a test lab for the Department of
Work and Pensions account. The testing had been built up after the
incident were someone released a GPO into the live environment that
took out every PC in the entire DWP. When I was there, they were back
on the down-side of the bell curve, heading back towards some sort of
disaster and the testing became a joke again.
The mantra of the management was JFDI. I suppose you either know or
can figure out what that stands for. Any time I tried to do my job
(ensuring that the stuff actually worked -- in my case, you could
install it) I was being obstructive. Morons.
Then, during one of the many rumours of the potential move of the
testing lab from being in a "tower" (working only for the DWP) to
being "leveraged" (working for any account), which would really mean
they'd make yet another attempt to fire us all and outsource it
(sorry, "best shore"), I jumped ship and went to a department that was
securely with the account.
That was a mistake, because that department was developed and tested
monitoring solutions using Unicenter.
After about five minutes using that "product", I wanted to slit my wrists.
We all hated Mark Hurd, and laughed and cheered when he got fired for
violating his own ethics videos... but he was the only CEO that
managed to run the place effectively -- because HP is like the former
Soviet Union -- if you don't maintain the terror, the whole thing
falls apart.
I'm back working for a small company... back to doing actual,
productive work, and keeping (mostly) my own council... It's nice to
feel useful... (;
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"The Market research says that people love monkeys."
--Wes Craven
7:02 p.m.
On 02/07/2013 03:04 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote:
After watching SUNW's demise from the inside I saw
the writing on the wall at HP. I'm glad I left when I did.
Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a shame what's become of
Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart to
see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release.
7:58 p.m.
On 2/8/2013 4:02 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote:
On 02/07/2013 03:04 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote:
I worked for sun for a couple of years from
93 to 95 (I think).
two stories:
Scott McNeely liked having a really fancy video studio so he could make
high sounding rambling speaches and distribute them. I worked for a
fellow who had been and still was the defacto support guy for a
facility, and division, and besides my job, was wired especially well
into IT and facilities. helped a lot.
Anyway word came down that some big speech was on the way, I don't
recall how many mb. There was a huge fuss because Scott or whoever
wanted to email it to everyone and be sure they saw it. The new fangled
netscape was around, but I was still in the mode of trolling FTP sites
in the company for entertainment and software than anything resembling
what was created by the net. So to get media out it had to be sent to
each individual.
Too many schmucks who wouldn't or couldn't handle getting and playing it
After watching SUNW's demise from the inside
I saw the writing on the wall at HP. I'm glad I left when I did.
Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a shame what's become of
Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart to
see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release. from an FTP site. Problem was in order to do this they
calculated that
they would need to add about 100gb to the mail server space to
accommodate all the copies of the email to be sent out. They ended up
doing it for this email because surely there would be more to follow
(one more ever). Just to hear Scott's head rattle.
I'd listened to a lot of media and had the setup to get and play it, but
there was a lot of manual work involved.
Another was that I was a contractor. Near the end of my time there,
which didn't particularly end because I wanted to leave, they changed
the accounting for the space in the facility. Some bean counter decided
that the facility was to be an asset, and you had to rent your space.
Some workers had no issues, and they then had their offices charged to
their departments at a ridiculous price.
So as a contractor, if I was in the office I'd have to pay rent (not me
actually, but my supervisor had to find budget). so any trace of me
moved off books, as my job was actually 100% travel. good for a while.
but some people who were such as sales or field support suddenly lost
their offices due to the fact that they were in the field. The new
marvelous system was that there would be a room, chairs, phones, and all
that they could "rent" when they were in the office, and their
department had to pay for that. The more you were out and about, the
lower the rent.
total madness. My tenure came to an end when they offered me 1/3 of my
contracting rate as an employee. My takehome literally would not have
been as high as a friend's kid who worked flipping burgers. Clear
message. screw Sun.
Love (ed) solaris, and the technical achievement. Never worked directly
in engineering, I was working for a marketing guy doing engineering off
the books, would have cried more to see what I did go down the way it did.
Jim
9:48 p.m.
On 02/08/2013 04:02 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote:
On 02/07/2013 03:04 PM, Jonathan Katz wrote:
I was digging through some of my old t-shirts, wondering which I should
toss into the garbage bag that's headed for Goodwill and I ran across
one that had the Sun logo on the front "Sunstruck 4.1.89 (Wanda)" and,
on the back, a ladybug with a slash through it, surrounded by "Getting
out the last bugs". I think my wife (worked for Sun for a time) or a
friend gave it to me.
Is it rag-bag material or does it hold some sentimental value for
someone? It's a little faded, but quite readable.
--Chuck
After watching SUNW's demise from the inside
I saw the writing on the wall at HP. I'm glad I left when I did.
Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a shame what's become of
Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart to
see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release. 
9 Feb
9 Feb
1:35 a.m.
New subject: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/08/2013 07:02 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote:
Wow, I miss SUNW so very much... sigh... It's a
shame what's become
of Solaris. At least there's openindiana/illumos... Warmed my heart
to see the recent OpenSXCE SPARC release.
I just installed that on a T2000. It's so "smoove" you have to spell
it with a "v". Very nice. You should see the hoops I have to jump
through to get Solaris (Oracle's Solaris) patches these days...that
company is just unbelievable. They've done great things for SPARC, but
unbelievably shitty things for Solaris.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:50 p.m.
New subject: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/8/2013 10:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
I just installed that on a T2000. It's so
"smoove" you have to spell
it with a "v". Very nice. You should see the hoops I have to jump
through to get Solaris (Oracle's Solaris) patches these days...that
company is just unbelievable. They've done great things for SPARC, but
unbelievably shitty things for Solaris. -Dave
It is really amazing how cheap the t1000 and t2000 are on ebay right
now. Everyone is dumping them. I saw a T1000 go for $49 the other day
and a T2000 for $125. I keep thinking about picking one up for fun. How
are you liking it ?
2:04 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/09/2013 01:50 PM, mc68010 wrote:
The bottom dropped out very suddenly a few weeks ago due to a whole
bunch of systems coming off-lease, and leasing companies being stupid by
putting ALL of them up on eBay at the same time. As recently as two
months ago, T2000s couldn't be touched for less than about $500. They
shipped a LOT of those systems, and it seems the vast majority of them
were leased. Three leasing companies that I sometimes do business with
have contacted me in the past couple of weeks asking about them.
I just
installed that on a T2000. It's so "smoove" you have to spell
it with a "v". Very nice. You should see the hoops I have to jump
through to get Solaris (Oracle's Solaris) patches these days...that
company is just unbelievable. They've done great things for SPARC, but
unbelievably shitty things for Solaris. -Dave
It is really amazing how cheap the t1000 and t2000 are on ebay right
now. Everyone is dumping them. I saw a T1000 go for $49 the other day
and a T2000 for $125. I keep thinking about picking one up for fun. How
are you liking it ?
I love it so far. It's a tremendous amount of bang for the buck, in
particular. If you have a workload profile that involves lots of
threads or lots of processes, it will scream. If you're trying to run
one or two large things, it will be much less impressive. A "ps -ef" on
my production server (which runs Zones) usually returns between 800 and
1000 processes. For that type of workload, the T-series processors
really shine, as does Solaris' rather awesome threading
implementation...a separate kernel thread for each device instance,
etc...unbelievably smooth, fast systems under heavy load.
This is WAY off-topic. But we seem to be good at that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:34 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/09/2013 02:24 PM, mc68010 wrote:
*sigh* Here we go.
I guess the fact that T4s are shipping now doesn't do a damn thing to
dispel these types of statements. This gets really, really old.
But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
This is WAY
off-topic. But we seem to be good at that. -Dave
I think we may actually be getting close to calling all SPARC gear
'classic'. The end may not be far off.
2:47 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/9/2013 11:34 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
* Here we go. I guess the fact that T4s are shipping
now doesn't do a
damn thing to dispel these types of statements. This gets really,
really old. But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic"
soon too, with all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce
ARM-based *servers*. -Dave
Sure they are shipping but, Oracle's hardware sales are way down.
http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/70/00/004641/orcl092112a.png The T4
isn't helping turn anything around. Hardware sales have gone down since
the T4 release.
2:58 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/09/2013 02:47 PM, mc68010 wrote:
This is true. But sales of *everything* are down.
And more importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get
them...and now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can
support. That's all I'm worried about.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
* Here we go.
I guess the fact that T4s are shipping now doesn't do a
damn thing to dispel these types of statements. This gets really,
really old. But either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic"
soon too, with all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce
ARM-based *servers*. -Dave
Sure they are shipping but, Oracle's hardware sales are way down.
http://cdn-static.zdnet.com/i/story/70/00/004641/orcl092112a.png The T4
isn't helping turn anything around. Hardware sales have gone down since
the T4 release.
3:04 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/9/2013 11:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
This is true. But sales of *everything* are down. And
more
importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get them...and
now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can support. That's
all I'm worried about. -Dave
What are most people running out in the field ? Have people moved to 11
already ?
3:18 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/09/2013 03:04 PM, mc68010 wrote:
On 2/9/2013 11:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Larger shops have, none of the smaller shops I've been around have
not. Oracle has made getting support damn near impossible for small
outfits. Patches are what people (like me) are concerned about...you
have to shell out huge amounts of money to get patches. It's
ridiculous. That's why OpenSXCE is important. Big organizations
(banks, hospitals, etc) have no problem with a few thousand bucks a year
for patch access. For smaller ones, like small retail chains (I do a
lot in that space) just don't have that kind of money these days, but
they still need a stable platform with good performance. I've moved
some of them to Linux, but that's not my preference.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
This is true. But sales of *everything* are down.
And more
importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get them...and
now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can support. That's
all I'm worried about. -Dave
What are most people running out in the field ? Have people moved to 11
already ?
10 Feb
10 Feb
3:59 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/09/2013 03:04 PM, mc68010 wrote:
On 2/9/2013 11:58 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Sadly, most have already moved on to Linux, which started when Sun was
sold. Some even earlier due to costs of x86_64 vs SPARC.
This is true. But sales of *everything* are down.
And more
importantly, my customers want SPARC, and I can still get them...and
now I can once again get a good OS for them that I can support.
That's all I'm worried about. -Dave
What are most people running out in the field ? Have people moved to
11 already ?
4:22 p.m.
New subject: OpenSolaris is not dead yet, was Re: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE
On Sun, 10 Feb 2013, Ray Arachelian wrote:
Sadly, most have already moved on to Linux, which
started when Sun was
sold. Some even earlier due to costs of x86_64 vs SPARC.
There are a large number of people running illumos. About half the talks
at the Surge 2012 conference were by people running one of the illumos
distributions in production (mostly SmartOS or OmniOS).
Alexey
4:40 a.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
But either way, Core i7s might be considered
"classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less
power consumption!
ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main
players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay attention,
the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one believes in having
any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and win.
12:04 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/10/2013 04:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
That would be "dark horse contender" in English.
I don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point,
but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move
into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the
server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work
with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a
server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my
world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
But either
way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less
power consumption!
ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main
players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay
attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one
believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and
win. 
6:57 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 12:04:13PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 02/10/2013 04:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas
wrote:
That would be "dark horse contender" in English.
I don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point,
but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move
into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the
server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work
with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a
server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my
world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world)
Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess)
of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and
not much more.
There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this:
http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G13534…
Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of
memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right
next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine.
The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well.
The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be
doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
But
either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less
power consumption!
ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main
players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay
attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one
believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and
win.
7:40 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/10/2013 06:57 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
I'm quite aware; I pay pretty close attention to the processor
market...but I always THINK of them as microcontrollers, because I use
them in that capacity every day.
Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I
need to get my paws on one of those. Unf!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I don't
think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point,
but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move
into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the
server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work
with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a
server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my
world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world)
Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess)
of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and
not much more.
There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this:
http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G13534…
Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of
memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right
next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine.
The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well.
The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be
doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform.
8:01 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/10/2013 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of
that. I think I
need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! -Dave
That thing is nuts. Check out how small it is. Wonder how hot that
heatsink gets. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oAiov-bgz9w
11 Feb
11 Feb
9:41 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 05:01:55PM -0800, mc68010 wrote:
On 2/10/2013 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
The relentless march of progress ;-)
Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard
of that. I think
I need to get my paws on one of those. Unf! -Dave
That thing is nuts. Check out how small it is. Wonder how hot that heatsink gets
Not that hot. I ran a kernel build with -j6 (6 parallel make processes)
on the U2 and while it got warm, it was still comfortable to touch.
Same for the X2.
Keep in mind that the power brick is only rated for 10 W. Thermal budget
wise, this is miles away from current Intel design. It is also quite a bit
_slower_ than current Intel designs, but still plenty fast. If you only need
moderate spec workstation for office, web and mail work, it might fit the
bill. Moreso if you are on a tight power budget (think your power coming
from, say, solar arrays on a boat/in a cabin).
But yeah, those tiny machines are _impressive_.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
10 Feb
10 Feb
8:18 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:40:14PM -0500, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 02/10/2013 06:57 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
I'm quite aware; I pay pretty close attention to the processor
market...but I always THINK of them as microcontrollers, because I use
them in that capacity every day.
Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I
need to get my paws on one of those. Unf!
Hehe.
I'm currently working on a talk labelled "Raspberry Pi & Friends" for a
Linux
conference in Germany in march where I'm going to talk about, yes, the
ubiquituous Raspbery Pi[0] - and also about a bunch of _other_ interesting
ARM boards providing quite a bit of bang for small bucks, including the
ODROID machines, Hackberry, ... so I'm looking rather closely at what is in
the market right now. And let me tell you, it looks damn impressive. Even the
Hackberry: 1.2 GHz single core ARM, 1 GB of RAM, Ethernet & WiFi for $65.
The amount of machine one can get for very little money these days .. also
they are _quiet_ (no fans) and suck down very little power. So you can just
stuff them quietly in some corner ...
Kind regards,
Alex.
[0] It definitely needs a set of slides called "The good, the bad, the ugly"
because there is plenty of all three there. One shouldn't look to closely
at the details of the Raspberri Pi after a good meal.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
I
don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point,
but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move
into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the
server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work
with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a
server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my
world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world)
Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess)
of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and
not much more.
There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this:
http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G13534…
Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of
memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right
next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine.
The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well.
The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be
doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform.
8:21 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/10/2013 4:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
>
http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G13534…
> >
> >Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of
> >memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting
right
> >next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine.
> >The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well.
> ><snip>
>
> Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I
> need to get my paws on one of those. Unf!
>
> -Dave
Samsung Galaxy Note 2 I have has this processor
Processor : ARMv7 Processor rev 0 (v71)
processor : 0
bogomips : 1592.52
processor: : 1
BogoMIPS : 3185.04
processor : 3
BogoMIPS : 3185.04
features : swp half thumb fastmult vfp edsp neon vfpv3 tls
CPU implementer : 0x41
CPU Architecture: 7
CPU Varient : 0x3
CPU part : 0xc09
CPU revision : 0
Chip revision : 0020
Hardware : SMDK4x12
revision : 000a
Serial : 2d1a7f1942f10c1b
Jim
11 Feb
11 Feb
12:21 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/10/13 5:40 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 02/10/2013 06:57 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
I'm quite aware; I pay pretty close attention to the processor
market...but I always THINK of them as microcontrollers, because I use
them in that capacity every day.
Now, that Enynos board of yours...I had NOT heard of that. I think I
need to get my paws on one of those. Unf!
-Dave
Very cool stuff that Exynos4412 board. They have several others available too, it seems.
I may have to get one myself, and build something cool. :D Amazing how much stuff they
can
cram into a board, half the size of a credit card!
Incidentally, one could easily run a webserver with one of those and a 64gb. EMMC card
with
Ubuntu 12.10. They already have 2 gb. of RAM built-in.
Dave Land
Land Computer Service
I
don't think anyone views ARM as a dark hors contender at this point,
but I think a lot of people are going to be surprised when they move
into the server market. I know I was surprised to hear of the
server-class support chipsets being developed...While I love ARM (I work
with ARM every day) I'd never in a million years considered it for a
server platform. For no good reason, mind you, it's just that, in my
world, they're microcontrollers and barely anything more. (in my world)
Microcontrollers? Aye, there are plenty (untold billions by now, I'd guess)
of ARM chips out there whose specs qualify them as microcontrollers and
not much more.
There are also _other_ things ARM out there, such as this:
http://www.hardkernel.com/renewal_2011/products/prdt_info.php?g_code=G13534…
Exynos4412 Prime, giving you 4 ARM cores clocked at 1.7 GHz and 2 GByte of
memory. In a board half the size of a credit card. I've got one sitting right
next to me, running Linux (Debian wheezy) just fine. Impressive little machine.
The power brick is specced at 10 Watts, and that has to cover USB as well.
The _massive_ proliferation of high spec ARM CPUs for smartphones seems to be
doing wonders for fueling advancement of the high end of the ARM platform. 
10 Feb
10 Feb
12:26 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 10/02/13 4:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that corresponds
to Niagara and CoolThreads?
It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient than
one CoolThreads CPU.
--Toby
But either
way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less
power consumption!
ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main
players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay
attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one
believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and
win.
1:04 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 10/02/2013 17:26, Toby Thain wrote:
On 10/02/13 4:40 AM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that
corresponds to Niagara and CoolThreads?
It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient
than one CoolThreads CPU.
--Toby
Have you priced a SPARC box recently? SUN really is targeting the high
ground, and whilst they might be more reliable than Wintel I can't
(usually) persuade my users to pay the costs.
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
But
either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and less
power consumption!
ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the main
players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay
attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one
believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them, and
win.
4:23 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 02/10/2013 12:26 PM, Toby Thain wrote:
Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that
corresponds to Niagara and CoolThreads?
It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient
than one CoolThreads CPU.
SPARC is awesome, there are some very good ideas in it. Between zones
and LDOMs, you have almost everything you could want in terms of
virtualization outside of intel.
There were some problems with LDOMs early on such as needing to reboot
in order to reconfigure certain things, but the later versions have
gotten those fixed. Not sure what Oracle did with it, I haven't kept up.
A few years before Sun imploded, a pair of T5140s with tons of RAM and
some iSCSI or FCAL storage would be enough to run a small company and
would consume less than half a rack. Java ran on those like greased
lightning. Oh well...
I guess in the end, it all depends on what Oracle wants to do with it,
and had it left OpenSolaris open, it might have had a chance. The other
other manfacturers, and I think Fuji made SPARCs that were used in
supercomputers. Not sure generic SPARC boards are available out there
at reasonable prices. It truly is a workhorse and always was. Register
windows for the win. Oracle seems to be aiming at Fortune 100 only, but
sadly for them Fortune 100 is as cutthroat as possible price wise, and
except for existing systems, they are more likely to remove SPARC and
switch to linux on x86_64...
Sadly, like the Alpha, and MIPS, it's likely to fall to the side. I
guess there's still POWER and ARM for now, and ARM's taking off for
consumer toys. I do like my Android tablets and phone, and they're
quite nice devices, but they're not powerful.
In terms of OS, we still have openindiana and a whole family of
operating systems, and ports of ZFS based off it. My home server runs
oi151a7 and I'm very happy with it. But, it's on intel, and such as it
is, it's still a good server for home use.
I do have a T1000 that I've been meaning to fix - had some bad RAM which
I recently replaced. I'm now regretting purchasing that RAM, now that I
see prices for other T-series boxes drop. :) Infact, it's on my kitchen
table, I literally just blew the dust out of its insides (was
complaining about voltage drops and the old memory failures, and blowing
out the dust from underneath the motherboard allowed me to power it on
finally.)
Sorry, this is offtopic, but how does one run OpenSXCE on a T1000? Is
there some sort of jumstart available for it? I suppose I can run
proper Solaris 11.1 on it, or good old Solaris 10. Many months ago I
tried to get Solaris 10 installed on it but couldn't do it anyway except
via jumpstart. Attaching a SATA DVD drive did not allow booting, not
even after adding the right device aliases in the openboot-prom.
10:31 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
Why couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM
story that corresponds
to Niagara and CoolThreads?
It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient than
one CoolThreads CPU.
Well, unfortunately I have very limited knowledge on sparc architeture
(beyond knowing they were used in playstation 1 and one of the nintendo
consoles (N64 or Gamecube, I'm not sure which) so I cannot develop this talk
11 Feb
11 Feb
1:14 a.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/10/2013 7:31 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
The PS1 used a MIPS R3000, the N64 was a MIPS R4300 variant. The
Gamecube was a PPC variant, IIRC. Off the top of my head, I think the
3DO was ARM-based.
- Josh
Why
couldn't that horse be SPARC? What is the ARM story that
corresponds to Niagara and CoolThreads?
It's not clear that a box of 128 ARMs is going to be more efficient
than one CoolThreads CPU.
Well, unfortunately I have very limited knowledge on sparc
architeture (beyond knowing they were used in playstation 1 and one of
the nintendo consoles (N64 or Gamecube, I'm not sure which) so I
cannot develop this talk
10 Feb
10 Feb
6:51 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0200, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
We'll see. For that, ARM has to seriously crank up computational capacity.
Currently, a rule of thumb is that a single core ARM CPU gives you about
the computer power of a modern x86 core running at a quarter the clock
speed. All that crazy effort of massive caching, long pipelines, predictors
and so on _does_ pay off ;-)
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
But either
way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and
less power consumption!
ARM processors are the runner that runs "by the side" while the
main players are fighting for first place...I believe when they pay
attention, the "azar?o" (in portuguese, the nice horse that no one
believes in having any chance for winning) will be waaay ahead them,
and win. 
11 Feb
11 Feb
12:04 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
On 2/10/13 5:51 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote:
On Sun, Feb 10, 2013 at 07:40:43AM -0200, Alexandre
Souza - Listas wrote:
We'll see. For that, ARM has to seriously crank up computational capacity.
Currently, a rule of thumb is that a single core ARM CPU gives you about
the computer power of a modern x86 core running at a quarter the clock
speed. All that crazy effort of massive caching, long pipelines, predictors
and so on _does_ pay off ;-)
Consider the "VMware Principle" - the idea that a huge percentage of
current company/corporate servers are running at a tiny fraction of
their CPU capacity.
Until recently it's been very difficult to get lower-powered
processor options in a server class board. IPMI, ILO, redundant power
supplies, watchdog capacity, etc, have always put you into premium
processors with their attendant power and cooling budgets.
I suspect that the new ARM server-class systems will fit VERY nicely
into that gap.
Doc
But
either way, Core i7s might be considered "classic" soon too, with
all the server manufacturers gearing up to produce ARM-based *servers*.
And I believe this will be a huge step toward better servers and
less power consumption! 
11:07 p.m.
New subject: T-series machines, was Re: OpenSXCE, was Re: Vintage era
In article <511924A4.8000109 at vaxen.net>,
Doc <doc at vaxen.net> writes:
Consider the "VMware Principle" - the
idea that a huge percentage of
current company/corporate servers are running at a tiny fraction of
their CPU capacity.
Companies like Fusion-io are changing this by replacing (relative to
the CPU) slow rotating storage with flash memory. Fusion-io has many
customers who pay for the expensive hardware by reducing the amount of
CPUs they are using to achieve the same aggregate throughput. Fewer
processors means less money they spend on Oracle licenses to achieve
their desired aggregate performance. In some cases, the reduction in
licensing alone can pay for the hardware in under a year.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
7 Feb
7 Feb
3:29 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, geneb wrote:
Ohh good point. They're really not qualified to be full janitors anyway.
How about Janitorial Assistant in Charge of Licking Mops Clean? That
shouldn't tax them TOO much.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
An effective counter would be enforcing a law
that said anyone with an MBA
couldn't be in any position above the janitor.
Please don't destroy the quality of the custodial staff!
We need them!
4:46 p.m.
HP maintained a technocracy for quite a while.
But now? A CEO who, despite spending more than any other political
campaign in the history of mankind, was unable to buy the California
Guvnorship. (among opther things, she promised to eliminate teacher
retirement benefits) Was exterminating the nerds and geeks, and
abolishing innovation her stated agenda at HP?
A couple of years ago I gave a talk on the HP9866A thermal printer. Much
of the talk was serious, for example I described all 32 states of the
control state machine. But at the start I compared the printer to its
most obvious competitor, the ASR33 and pointed out how quiet the HP
thermal printer was.
I then mentioed that there was a continuous backgorund whirring noise.
You might think that's just the cooling fan. In fact it's 'Bill and
Dave' rotating in thair graves in repsonse to recent changes at the
once-great company :-)
-tony
3:05 p.m.
On 02/07/2013 10:41 AM, geneb wrote:
An effective counter would be enforcing a law that
said anyone with an
MBA couldn't be in any position above the janitor.
Brings to mind that Nortel, a big presence in the valley back when they
were Northern Telecom is, as of yesterday, a "was". And it wasn't
because they didn't have a great portfolio of patents--just inept
management. Someone should write a book called "How a bunch of yahoos
could take a profitable 120-year old company and reduce it to garbage".
The icing on the cake was when the CEO sued the not-quite-dead corpse
for a billion dollars in order to get himself on the list of creditors
during bankruptcy.
It's amazing how destructive an MBA-type can be. Carly Fiorina, for
example.
--Chuck
3:36 p.m.
On Thu, 7 Feb 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 02/07/2013 10:41 AM, geneb wrote:
Any technology company that's either run by an MBA or has one in a
significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
An effective counter would be enforcing a law
that said anyone with an
MBA couldn't be in any position above the janitor.
Brings to mind that Nortel, a big presence in the valley back when they were
Northern Telecom is, as of yesterday, a "was". And it wasn't because they
didn't have a great portfolio of patents--just inept management. Someone
should write a book called "How a bunch of yahoos could take a profitable
120-year old company and reduce it to garbage".
4:25 p.m.
On 02/07/2013 12:36 PM, geneb wrote:
Any technology company that's either run by an MBA
or has one in a
significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet.
The same could be said for banks hiring compulsive gamblers for
management--except that some government official (probably a classmate)
bought into the "too big to fail" argument.
It used to be that a banker was pillar of the community and probably the
most strait-laced conservative fellow you'd ever have the pleasure of
knowing.
Now, they vacation in Gstaad and St. Croix (flown there on private jets)
and live in ultra-secure digs, have bodyguards and drivers. To them,
Henry F. Potter was a wimp. Sounds like the way a mob boss would
operate. Probably not much difference.
--CHuck
4:34 p.m.
On 02/07/2013 04:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
In other words: "Fucking SUITS!"
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Any technology
company that's either run by an MBA or has one in a
significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet.
The same could be said for banks hiring compulsive gamblers for
management--except that some government official (probably a classmate)
bought into the "too big to fail" argument.
It used to be that a banker was pillar of the community and probably the
most strait-laced conservative fellow you'd ever have the pleasure of
knowing.
Now, they vacation in Gstaad and St. Croix (flown there on private jets)
and live in ultra-secure digs, have bodyguards and drivers. To them,
Henry F. Potter was a wimp. Sounds like the way a mob boss would
operate. Probably not much difference.
5:16 p.m.
I don't think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people
will play well with some fine list members. I certainly think where the
execution of bad management and risky practices at some banks is
certainly fair game, I don't think the condemnation of "bankers" is the
same as the bean counters which were the original topic.
I think the general topic of having people who are locked on short term
performance and measures which have nothing to do with technical
excellence are valid points. The fact that all companies have been
broken by this in general is more than just a problem for technology
companies. The whole economy is now essentially governed by sociopathic
entities with nothing to loose or feel if they overstep their bounds or
hurt other entities.
As long as dollars are the only object it will only get worse. Used to
be there were other goals.
On 2/7/2013 1:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 02/07/2013 04:25 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
In other words: "Fucking
SUITS!"
Any
technology company that's either run by an MBA or has one in a
significant role is a failed company that doesn't know it yet.
The same could
be said for banks hiring compulsive gamblers for
management--except that some government official (probably a classmate)
bought into the "too big to fail" argument.
It used to be that a banker was pillar of the community and probably the
most strait-laced conservative fellow you'd ever have the pleasure of
knowing.
Now, they vacation in Gstaad and St. Croix (flown there on private jets)
and live in ultra-secure digs, have bodyguards and drivers. To them,
Henry F. Potter was a wimp. Sounds like the way a mob boss would
operate. Probably not much difference.
6:54 p.m.
On 02/07/2013 02:16 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
I don't think the drift of the conversation to
condemning banking people
will play well with some fine list members. I certainly think where the
execution of bad management and risky practices at some banks is
certainly fair game, I don't think the condemnation of "bankers" is the
same as the bean counters which were the original topic.
So you maintain that the banks had absolutely nothing to do with the
current recession or LIBOR manipulation games? In particular, the large
investment banks aren't responsible for any of it?
Oh, okay. Suum cuique.
--Chuck
7:02 p.m.
On 02/07/2013 06:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
ROFLMAO!!
I reiterate, with emphasis: "FUCKING SUITS!!"
Damn Wall Street criminals. And yet, like Lindsay Lohan, they always
seem to avoid jail time. "Things that make you go 'hmmmm'".
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I don't
think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people
will play well with some fine list members. I certainly think where the
execution of bad management and risky practices at some banks is
certainly fair game, I don't think the condemnation of "bankers" is the
same as the bean counters which were the original topic.
So you maintain that the banks had absolutely nothing to do with the
current recession or LIBOR manipulation games? In particular, the large
investment banks aren't responsible for any of it?
Oh, okay. Suum cuique. 
8:12 p.m.
On 2/7/2013 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
childish a bit. I don't condemn all banking people any more than I want
to be condemned because there are people spending time and technical
talent at a high level creating spambots.
And I do know a number of excellent technical people who wear suits. My
buddy does embellish it by having a pocket protector in his inside
pocket with enough tools to service a humvee.
And again there are people on the list who are married to people in the
banking field whose motives and integrity I don't question.
The difference here with bankers are whether they are ones you can meet
and actually know and trust , or operations with answering centers in
mumbai. (ok I'm insulting other list members with that crack).
Jim
I don't
think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people
Do they wear
suits?
9:11 p.m.
On 2/7/2013 4:10 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
childish a bit. I don't condemn all banking people any more than I want
to be condemned because there are people spending time and technical
talent at a high level creating spambots.
And I do know a number of excellent technical people who wear suits. My
buddy does embellish it by having a pocket protector in his inside
pocket with enough tools to service a humvee.
And again there are people on the list who are married to people in the
banking field whose motives and integrity I don't question.
The difference here with bankers are whether they are ones you can meet
and actually know and trust , or operations with answering centers in
mumbai. (ok I'm insulting other list members with that crack).
Jim
I don't
think the drift of the conversation to condemning banking people
Do they wear
suits?
8 Feb
8 Feb
12:13 a.m.
On 02/07/2013 06:11 PM, Jim Stephens wrote:
The difference here with bankers are whether they are
ones you can meet
and actually know and trust , or operations with answering centers in
mumbai. (ok I'm insulting other list members with that crack).
If it's a community banker in plain old retail banking, I have no
problems with a person. But when they say "investment banking", "hedge
funds", etc., I hold my nose and consider the person a menace to society.
I'll wager right now that none of the LIBOR manipulators ever see a day
of prison, although a better example of racketeering I would be hard put
to discover. Paltry fines is all their parent establishments ever get.
--Chuck
9:30 p.m.
On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 12:05:43PM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote:
It's amazing how destructive an MBA-type can be.
Carly Fiorina, for
example.
I have it on good authority that there was quite a bit of dancing at
HP when they finally managed to kick her out the door.
Unfortunately, by that time she had already managed to do a _lot_ of damage.
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
1:44 p.m.
On Thu, Feb 7, 2013 at 10:16 AM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 6 Feb 2013, Murray McCullough wrote:
The people who consumerized computers weren't the nerds, geeks, or
technocrats...
If they were, names like Ed Roberts, Tim Patterson, Steve Wozniak, Bill Joy,
Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, Jonathan Sachs, Rob Barnaby, Gordon Letwin,
and maybe even Paul Allen (to name a few) would have more public
recognition
than names like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Seymour Rubinstein, or Mitch
Kapor...
It's the marketers and businessmen who consumerize, the implementers and
innovators never steer anything (or get any real credit).
I was reading ?The Fire in the Valley? ? the
story of how the computer
became a mass-consumer product - and the wrestling of control by
experimenters & hobbyists of computing technology from elites - the
computer cognoscenti. This beginning age(1970s-80s) saw the rise of
the technocrat, the nerd, the geek who revolutionized technology but
who today are the computing elite and control our technocratic society
for good or ill.
8 Feb
8 Feb
4:18 a.m.
On Thu, Feb 07, 2013 at 11:44:00AM -0700, John Willis wrote:
The people who consumerized computers weren't the
nerds, geeks, or
technocrats...
If they were, names like Ed Roberts, Tim Patterson, Steve Wozniak, Bill Joy,
Ken Thompson, Dennis Ritchie, Jonathan Sachs, Rob Barnaby, Gordon Letwin,
and maybe even Paul Allen (to name a few) would have more public
recognition
than names like Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, Seymour Rubinstein, or Mitch
Kapor...
It's the marketers and businessmen who consumerize, the implementers and
innovators never steer anything (or get any real credit).
It really bugged me back in the 70s/80s when we were regarded as outcast
weirdos, playing with our toys, when it was obvious to us that computers
make doing *everything* easier/better. Yet the normals didn't seem to care.
Now that a few decades have gone by and the whole thing has been balled up
and sold to them, so they finally agree (at a shallow consumerish level),
it's actually kind of spoiled some of the fun.
John Wilson
D Bit
4184
days inactive
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58 comments
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