On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: 5.25" As Gary Kildall told me: "It's 8 inch single sided single density; those deviant forms that have cropped up lately don't count."

--- On Mon, 11/24/08, Antonio Carlini <arcarlini at iee.org> wrote: That's what I would bet on. While the knowledge that diskettes come in three primary sizes (8", 5 1/4" and 3 1/2") is common among us geeks, the general population has entirely forgotten about 8" disks, and refers to 5 1/4" disks as "those big bendy disks", "five inch disks", or similar. Remember all the people that called 3 1/2" disks "hard disks"? Even computer companies - people that should know better, make mistakes when talking about floppy disks. Last week I was in a Staples store (American office supply store chain), and saw a Memorex 3 1/2" USB floppy drive, the package stating clearly that it supported "1.44mb double sided and 720k single sided diskettes". -Ian

Chuck Guzis wrote: Heh... because it'd be incredibly confusing? What I want to know is when the US and Canada will get with the program and start using ISO paper sizes like everyone else :-) Re. floppy sizes, I don't think I've ever heard anyone say 5" floppy, however computer illiterate. I believe I have heard 5 1/2" thrown about (to incorrectly mean 5 1/4") in the early days of 3.5" adoption.

On 25 Nov 2008 at 1:29, Alexander Schreiber wrote: I don't know if I'd call the Amstrad/Schneider PCW "Joyce" a typewriter, but it used 3 inch CF2 floppies. Rather than struggle with trying to find the blasted things on this side of the pond for mine, I converted over to 720K DS 3.5" drives. More storage than the original. The Zenith Minisport used 2" floppies (the same media used on the Canon Xapshot camera (and some others). As has been mentioned, there are also 2.8" and 3.25" inch floppies. There's also a 12" floppy, but it doesn't hold much: http://paisleymonkey.com/ProductView.aspx?ProductID=628 Cheers, Chuck

Alexander Schreiber wrote: And the "Sinclair" (post-Amstrad buyout) Spectrum +3. Amstrad were supposed to be releasing a floppy controller and drive for the +2A, but IIRC it never materialised. -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

There were double sided and single sided "flippy" drives Amdek made add-on external 3" floppy drive units for Apple][ and Coco. The "Coco" one was, of course usable with almost anything that used an SA400 interface at a 250K data transfer rate. You would probably need back issues of 80 Micro, Rainbow, or Computer Shopper to be able to find the ads for them. A handful of 3" drives could be turned on edge to cram into a 5150 drive bay

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 01:29:45AM +0100, Alexander Schreiber wrote: Also in Amstrad computers, and a few other minor 8-bit manufacturers. I believe that Hitachi also used them. After they stopped being used in normal computers, they were still used in some marine applications for a while, presumably because they were more physically robust than 3.5" floppies, and were stocked by some chandlers on the east coast of the UK for use in the North Sea fishing fleet. -- David Cantrell | Minister for Arbitrary Justice "The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary" -- H. L. Mencken

On 2 Dec 2008 at 11:30, David Cantrell wrote: You must be referring to the media; the drives themselves were cheap tin cans. Cheers, Chuck

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Christian Corti wrote: A3 paper is on display at my local Officemax. No A4 though. I seem to recall something being said about it becoming much easier after the US auto industry switches over. That appears to have happened, but we still default to non-metric thread and nuts. Something I'd like to see is a serious effort to get rid of phillips screws. The damn things strip out easily, slip out easily, and require considerable pushing. Hex screws are okay, but when they get tiny, they too will strip easily. Square-head or torx would be best. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

You will probably have different feelings about this when you have to replace fixing hardware in a a foreign machine... metric nuts/bolts in the US than UNC ones in the UK (the latter is next-to-impossible!). I am seriously thinking of ordering an assortment of the latter from the States. I detest Phillips and Pozidriv screws. They always seem to strip or 'cam out' when you try to remove them. Admittedly some of the problems that people have come from using the wrong screwdriver (Phillips and Pozidriv are different tip shapes, and using the worng tool will cause damage to both the screw head and the tool) but I have both and use them appropriately. My favourite has to be Torx. I have never had any problems with those. -tony

Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: My Audi uses triple-square for that kind of stuff. Peace... Sridhar

On 26 Nov 2008 at 1:13, Dave McGuire wrote: Dave, do you mean "flat head"? I know that I've got a bunch of phillips flat-head screws in my hellbox. http://www.engineersedge.com/phillips_flat_head.htm Cheers, Chuck

On 1 Dec 2008 at 10:48, Paul Koning wrote: Another way to find larger HG sizes is to get a (good) set of power- drive bits that will fit a screwdriver socket handle. Although this has its problems with getting into tight spaces, sets of hollow- ground hardened power bits are comparatively easy to find. Cheers, Chuck

Isn't it ironic that guns were one of the first beneficiaries of mass production techniques that allowed for interchangeable parts?

Oh for %deity's sake!. There exist things called torque screwdrivers for this problem. And yes I have one. Using the cam-out of a phillips screw for this is a kludge at best. It doesn't happen at a precise torque (it depeds -- a lot -- on the azial force applied to the tool), it damages the tool, and it damages the screw head making it difficult to remove later. -tony

Dave McGuire wrote: The real problem is the lack of a quality screw.

Step away from the keyboard... step AWAY from the keyboard... STEP AWAY.... ________________________________________ From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 8:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. On Nov 26, 2008, at 10:20 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: I think that's the root of ALL of the world's problems. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

On Nov 27, 2008, at 2:30 PM, Tony Duell wrote: Yes. :-( I agree completely. But us thinking people allow suits (a descriptive term that refers to mindset, not attire) to run the world, and suits like to hire cheap labor so they can pocket larger profits. Do they REALLY care about the quality of construction? Of course not. I cast my vote for hex-head and Torx screws. And immediate execution (or at least banishment) of all suits. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

On Nov 28, 2008, at 12:28 AM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: Oh no. Ben, WHY did you have to give me that image?! -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

On Nov 28, 2008, at 1:20 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote: ;) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Of course, we "thinking people" have proved time and time again that we are completely incapable of running a business. Thinking Machines, anyone? Suits are required, like it or not. -- Will

William Donzelli wrote: What scares me is $29.99 for new DVD's and $29.95 for the cheap ( non-blueray player).

Those turn up on cheap domestic appliances over here. The only possile reason for them is to make the device difficult to repair, something which, not suprisingly, I disapprove of. I've not managed to fidn a source of drivers or bits for these in the UK -- the 'security bit' sets don't contain them, and none of the tool shops I frequent keeps them. Does anyone know a source. So far I've had to make my own drivers from metal rod, fortunately the screws haven't been that tight. -tony

der Mouse wrote: That's what glue and potting compound is for... (Hmm, bad memories of CBM and the +4 PSU... :-) The requirement for less-common tools just to keep two things fastened together is nuts IMHO - personally I just replace them with something more widespread whenever I come across them (and need to undo them - I don't go seeking these things out :-) cheers Jules

On 3 Dec 2008 at 20:16, Tony Duell wrote: Well, if we really wanted to protect people from their own actions, we'd get rid of wall sockets with 120/220 volts on them. After all, any idiot can jam a couple of paperclips into the thing and do himself in. We should limit these to about 10 volts and 50 ma... And for heavean's sake, make sure that people can't get their hands on anything but very small quantites of dangerous substances such as gasoline! Cheers, Chuck

I dont;' see why they should be free, but other than that I agree with you. I have never taken (illegal) drugs, I never intend to. But I do feel I hae the right to do whatever I like to myself and my property provided it doesn't adversely affect others. Yes, and it's rapdily gettign on my nerves! Waht the health-n-safety idiots don't seem to realise is that the damage to my health caused by the frustration and stress from not being able to get <foo> (service manual, spare part, sensible chemiocals, etc) is almost certainly greater than the damage to my health that these things would cause. I remember the user manual for one of my FM radio tuners. The first page tells you how to tune it correctly (how to interpret the tuning indicator, etc). The next secion covers RF and IF alingment (It requires a double-beam 'scope and an accurate RF signal generator, things that were not at all commonly owned at the time. But it still gives them). Then photographs of the chassis. Then parts lists. And finally a schematic. For all it's valved with 300V HT (B+), there are no stupid safety warnings. -tony

It's funny you should say that. Earlier in that week (Monday 24th Nov.) a colleague at work decided to try and fix something on one of our analytical machines which was broken. It was something that noone at the lab was trained to do (infact noone I know knows anything about electronics, other than simple PC mobo stuff) and he decided to do it anyway. He was using some pliers with a rubber handle holding a connector and accidentally connected with something (I wasn't actually watching him at the time) almost electrocuting himself. I believe it would only have been 110V, but the machine itself has breakers on which noone had checked to see were off. Suffice to say, management had a stern word with him and a Health & Safety email was sent around the lab. For the record, we aren't officially allowed to change fuses at work - even though we have done it at home loads of times. It's certainly not the safest place to work, that's for sure. Only a couple of months back we lost power for half a day, as the UPS system melted down! Management were rumoured to have ran away from the unit as large arcs of electricity were coming from it. Anyway, I get your point. I joined this list prior to going inside my Dreamcast and Amiga as I knew I needed some electrics advice first. The fact that this turned out to be such a benefit (electrically and computerwise) was a bonus :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Sun, 30/11/08, der Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> wrote: From: der Mouse <mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Subject: Triangle pseudo-Robertson screws [was Re: 5" floppy?.] To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Sunday, 30 November, 2008, 3:47 AM I disagree. There is also an argument for them in the form of protecting consumers from the dangerous interiors of appliances. Of course, depending on the appliance, this may not actually be a valid argument. But if there's mains voltage present, it's an argument with some force to it. (While you and I may be competent to fix things, and competent to avoid hurting ourselves even in cases where we aren't able to fix, most small-appliance consumers are neither. Worse, many of them incorrectly think they are.)

And thusly were the wise words spake by David Griffith ^^^^^^^^^^^ is known as a "Robertson". Cheers, Bryan

On 25 Nov 2008 at 3:03, David Griffith wrote: I once read an interview with the son of inventor Henry Phillips (an Oregon native) and he maintained that it wasn't the original design (US Patent 2046343) that was at fault, it was primarily the fault of ASC for cheapening the manufacturing process by relaxing specifications--and the propagation of inferior tools. Indeed, the screwdrivers I have that are labeled "Genuine Phillips" do seem to be quite a bit better than the generic variety. One aspect of the Phillips head not shared by Torx or Robertson/square is that it will automatically center the driving bit. The "slipping out", I believe is referred to as "camming out". While rebuilding a deck this summer, I found that even square-drive screws are easy to strip when power is used to drive them. Fortunately, deck screws are being manufactured with the Torx head (mine were T25s) and allow for much better driving performance. Cheers, Chuck

On Tue, 25 Nov 2008, Chuck Guzis wrote: I don't follow on the automatic centering. Yes, a slotted screwdriver can slide out, but torx or robertsons? That's why you're supposed to use a drill with a slipper clutch. -- David Griffith dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?

On 25 Nov 2008 at 18:45, David Griffith wrote: To engage a Torx or Robertson, the screwdriver bit must be fairly precisely positioned so it enters the head. With a Phillips, one can still engage the head successfully even if one starts off-center due to the property that both the slot and bit are conical in profile-- the bit will naturally tend to slide to center in the slot. The price you pay for this is that it's not easy to preload a driver with a screw without some sort of clip or magnet arrangement. Torx and Robertson-headed screws can be preloaded onto the bit which is one of the reasons that manufacturers like them--which is also, why, I suppose that square-drive drywall screws have largely replaced phillips-head ones. I did better than that--I used a special-purpose screwgun that releases as soon as the head is driven flush with the surface. The problem is that stainless deck screwheads are rather soft. Driving 4" #12 screws into green Doug-fir joists requires a fair amount of torque, even if one predrlls the first inch or two of the hole. Cheers, Chuck

On Tue, Nov 25, 2008 at 03:03:39AM -0800, David Griffith wrote: Around here (Switzerland) I see people using Torx quite a lot. Regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

They are, already, jamming screws with metric threads into non-metric threaded holes. 40 years ago, we were running into disastrous comingling of NC and NF. Two folk I knew decided to trade doors of their USA vans (one had windows, one didn't). I had to repair a lot of stripped threads by the time they realized that one was NC, one was NF, of the same model van. Now we have an auto industry that is mixing SAE and metric, much like UK a long time ago, other than the lack of Whitworth.

Gordon JC Pearce MM3YEQ wrote: Two words: "Triumph" and "Whitworth" My ('70? '69?) TC100 had metric, imperial, AND Whitworth parts. Doc

Jules Richardson wrote: This is a really fascinating thread. I never knew that late 60s sports cars used 5" floppies. Amazing. Did such cars use core memory, or did they use the brake drums for storage? Next let's talks about sports teams that use 5" floppies, then we can talk about office jokes that may or may not use 5" floppies, and perhaps the US list members can get around to whether democrats or republicans are better for 5" floppies. Humbug.

Fred Cisin wrote: Yeah, funny how there's a lot of interest overlap between vintage computing, old cars, and engineering (and that it says in the "to" field of this message that the list is for "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts") - but let's not go there, huh? ;-) J.

As I mentioned a week or so ago, I've just bought an HP59309 HPIB-interfaced clock. None of my HPIB cables will fit it. The reason is that it's sufficiently early to have 6-32 UNC jackposts on the HPIB connector, rather than the M3.5 metric ones that came later, and nobody has done the conversion (new jackposts). I'm not going to do it either, something that old should be kept original. I'll jute replace the locking screws at one end of one of my (many) HPIB cales. At least one UK machine tool manufacture was using an odd mix of screws up to 10 years ago (and probaly still does). The lathe I bought form them has a mix of BSW (Whitworth), BA, and metric fasteners. -tony

Very early HPIB stuff, I think before the IEEE-488 standard was produced used 6-32 UNC jackscrews. Later on, the jackscrews were M3.5 (metric), and HP sold conversion kits for the older stuff -- a pair of jackposts for the instruments, and a set of 4 jackscrews for the cables. UNC ones were niuckel-plated, metric ones were black oxide finish, so you could easily tell them apart. Most older instruments wrre converted (for example, the HPIB interface for my 9830 was made in 1974 according to the serial number, but has metric jackposts). So if you find one with the old UNC jackposts then IMHO it should be left as it is. Of coruse this means no modern cable will fit, hence my idea to change the screws at one end of one cable to the UNC type (I'll probably have to make these...) so as to be able to link the instrument to all my other HPIB stuff. Tghe laternative is to swap the jackposts and keep the old ones with the intrument (say in a plastic bag tucked inside), but to be honest, I'd rather keep it oirignal on the outside if I can. -tony

days I must be hanging around with wrong class of ignoramus - I've never heard them called anything other than 5-1/4". Obviously these days I never hear them called _anything_ ... time 3" I do have (for some Amstrady thingumies). 3.25" I've never had the pleasure to chance upon (although I know they do exist). Antonio

On Monday 24 November 2008 06:34:21 pm Fred Cisin wrote: Didn't IBM make a 4" size around the time that sub-5.25" was just getting going as well? -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin

On Mon, 24 Nov 2008, Antonio Carlini wrote: BTW, an ignoranus is an ignoramus who is also an asshole

Well, calling it mb (millibyte) is clearly wrong. And the value of 1.44Mbytes assumes you take 1Mbyte as 1000*1024 bytes, which is downright crazy. But I'll bet you're moaning abotu the '720K single-siderd' part. But what do you think is the capacity of a single-sided, 80 cylinder disk using the the HD data rates (And thus 18 512-yte sectors/track)? OK, I'll but that's not what the drive supports, but there's no logical reason why it can't... -tony

Until a couple of years ago I wasn't aware of the difference between Mb and MB. The one thing that annoys me is the mixing up of using "disc" and "disk". Floppies are disks (short for diskettes), not discs. Discs are usually CD's, or vinyl records (though I have never heard them called a vinyl discs). Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk --- On Wed, 26/11/08, Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> wrote: From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> Subject: Re: 5" floppy?. To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Date: Wednesday, 26 November, 2008, 12:04 AM Actually, doesn't mb imply "millibit", and mB is "millibyte", with Mb as "megabit" and MB as "megabyte"? Peace... Sridhar

It is an old floppy...it was 8" but nowadays it is 9", children grows... :)