19 Aug
2008
19 Aug
'08
11:49 a.m.
At 03:11 PM 8/18/2008, joe lobocki wrote:
someone really should open a vintage computer museum
near
chicago...Ive toyed with the idea, i think space in the old 3com
building in rolling meadows would be a fitting place for vintage
computing....
I'd love to hear from anyone actually operating a computer museum.
They seem like money sinks. You need benefactor$. Obviously, the
best location for a computer museum would be where rich computer
people like to live.
I'd love to hear the typical ratio between exhibit space and storage/repair
space, for example.
- John
19 Aug
19 Aug
12:23 p.m.
Starting a museum is a major endeavor if you want it to not suck.
The last time I counted (2 years ago) there were 15-20 computer museums in
the U.S. alone. Not counting the Smithsonian, the breakdown is this:
there's the Computer History Museum (in Mountain View, Calif.), and
there's everyone else.
The CHM has millions upon millions of dollars. It is a very professional
and high-end facility located in the former Silicon Graphics marketing
building. Major donations from corporate bigwigs, etc., etc.
The others are all vastly smaller. Some have space in other buildings;
others are just a few display cases called a "museum".
Here in New Jersey, we are extremely lucky. We have a large space in an
existing non-profit science center. We've been there for 3 years so far
rent-free. Soon we'll have to pay our share of the utilities. We raise
money through donations, by holding events such as the VCF East, and by
sometimes renting computers out as TV props, etc.
So my advice to anyone who wants to start a computer museum is: have a
promise of physical space BEFORE you start collecting artifacts;
understand the budget and insurance issues; and never go it alone.
I'd be glad to answer additional questions offline.
At 03:11 PM 8/18/2008, joe lobocki wrote:
someone really should open a vintage computer
museum near
chicago...Ive toyed with the idea, i think space in the old 3com
building in rolling meadows would be a fitting place for vintage
computing....
I'd love to hear from anyone actually operating a computer museum.
They seem like money sinks. You need benefactor$. Obviously, the
best location for a computer museum would be where rich computer
people like to live.
I'd love to hear the typical ratio between exhibit space and
storage/repair
space, for example.
- John
12:42 p.m.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008 12:23:13 -0400 (EDT), Evan Koblentz wrote:
So my advice to anyone who wants to start a computer
museum is: have a
promise of physical space BEFORE you start collecting artifacts;
understand the budget and insurance issues; and never go it alone.
Good advice.
<sarcasm on>
leave the collecting of artifacts to the pros....
Stop driving the prices up on eBay, it only brings more deep pockets to the game.
</sarcasm>
Never give up your dream, someday your collection may become part of a larger collection.
or it just might become a pile of expensive junk that only you can appreciate.
Bottom line, without an endowment or a building you are forever treading water untill you
find help.
Just my 2 cents ...
The other Bob
1:01 p.m.
Good advice.
My advice is that before you start a museum, have the important
foundation poured - incorporation, bylaws, charter, collections
policy, etc.. A museum is a very specialized type of business, and
must be run like one.
Those that do not (and most do not) are basically doomed to die or
remain insignificant.
Trivia! What was to be the first museum to feature computers as a
major portion of the collection?
--
Will
2:17 p.m.
William Donzelli wrote:
Ha ha! I think the Bletchley Park one started up sometime in '92 or '93, but
was little more than a big room stuffed full of kit - with a few "hands on"
systems - for years. I very much doubt it was the first world-wide...
Mind you - trick question? Your "was to be" didn't escape me - was there
something years ago that never made it out of the planning stage?
cheers
Jules
Trivia! What
was to be the first museum to feature computers as a
major portion of the collection?
Oops, forgot me quotes. "first". 
2:42 p.m.
>>>> "Jules" == Jules Richardson
<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> writes:
Jules> William Donzelli wrote:
>> Trivia! What was to be the first museum to
feature computers as a
>> major portion of the collection?
> Oops, forgot me quotes. "first".
Jules> Ha ha! I think the Bletchley Park one started up sometime in
Jules> '92 or '93, but was little more than a big room stuffed full
Jules> of kit - with a few "hands on" systems - for years. I very
Jules> much doubt it was the first world-wide...
Jules> Mind you - trick question? Your "was to be" didn't escape me -
Jules> was there something years ago that never made it out of the
Jules> planning stage?
Good question.
An early one is the computer museum that DEC built (Gordon Bell's
idea?) in its Marlborough plant. That was in the 1980s I think.
Later that became the Boston computer museum, which in fairly short
order was run into the ground.
Too bad. I saw the Marlborough version and it had some neat stuff.
One of the oddball items was a part of the Goodyear STARAN.
paul
3:14 p.m.
In article <18603.5139.59701.9979 at gargle.gargle.HOWL>,
Paul Koning <Paul_Koning at Dell.com> writes:
An early one is the computer museum that DEC built
(Gordon Bell's
idea?) in its Marlborough plant. That was in the 1980s I think.
Later that became the Boston computer museum, which in fairly short
order was run into the ground.
I thought the Boston Computer Museum moved to silicon valley and
became the Computer History Museum.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
3:29 p.m.
> I thought the Boston Computer Museum moved to
silicon valley and became
the Computer History Museum.
Indirectly. It closed around the same time that Gordon got a job with
Microsoft Research in California. His wife Gwen was the primary museum
advocate. So most of the Boston museum's collection went west to the CHM.
Other parts went to the Boston Science Museum. But the Boston computer
museum did not "move" in the literal sense to Silicon Valley,
4:04 p.m.
New subject: OT: First computer museum, was: Opening computer museums
I suppose it depends on the definition of "major", "museum" and
"depends". But I recall IBM exhibits at Chicago's Museum of Science
and Industry at about the same time that Hammond had a major exhibit
extolling their tonewheel technology for organs. That would be what,
late 1950's, early 60's? I recall a cutaway of a 305 RAMAC as being
part of the exhibit as well as some cool relay-operated pushbutton
exhibits.
When I visited the Deutsches Museum in the 70's, they had already
started accumulating computer gear.
By either of these measures, BCM was a latecomer.
Cheers,
Chuck
7:44 p.m.
New subject: OT: First computer museum, was: Opening computer museums
I suppose it depends on the definition of
"major", "museum" and
"depends". But I recall IBM exhibits at Chicago's Museum of Science
and Industry at about the same time that Hammond had a major exhibit
extolling their tonewheel technology for organs. That would be what,
late 1950's, early 60's? I recall a cutaway of a 305 RAMAC as being
part of the exhibit as well as some cool relay-operated pushbutton
exhibits.
Well, displaying a RAMAC when RAMACs were still in service is sort of
a big advertisement - not a whole lot of history.
"Answer" in a few hours.
--
Will
20 Aug
20 Aug
8:35 a.m.
And the answer is the American Museum of Electricity, in Niskayuna,
NY, near Albany. In the early 1960s, some of the people involved
apparently were very much forward thinkers, and planned to have an
entire wing of their building dedicated to computers. Other wings
dealt with other branches of electricity and electronics.
At the time, AME made quite a splash with their plans. They started to
collect artifacts, sometimes from afar. They had big plans for a
museum building, and started to line up some money. The even had a
couple of magazine articles published. But, from what I can tell, they
had a flawed internal structure. Essentially, they were a bunch of
talk, interested in obtaining artifacts, PR and the "fun" stuff, but
did a lackluster job on the business end. By the mid/late 1960s, it
fell apart.
From what little info is out there, it is a prime
example of how not
to start a museum.
Today, there is very little evidence left of the museum. The only
artifacts I can trace are some documents, and their two electric
locomotives. Some of the documents went to other museums, one of the
locomotives ("Black Maria") went to trolley museum, and the other (NYC
S-motor) rusts in the weeds.
I very seriously wonder if they had any significant computer artifacts
in the collection. In the early 60s, they were in prime territory to
obtain all kinds of extremely significant pieces, as there were still
first generation computers around. I doubt anything survived, however.
If anyone has any info (or corrections) about AME, I would certainly
like to here it. I have extremely little, and have been piecing things
together.
--
Will
19 Aug
19 Aug
1:47 p.m.
In article <e1d20d630808191001v22498763kf60ad4458616b25d at mail.gmail.com>,
"William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
You might also want to read "Non-Profits for Dummies". Although I
hate being told I'm a "Dummy" in the title, this is actually a very
good book.
One of the easiest ways to get off the ground with all the above stuff
that Will recommends is to operate under the umbrella of a larger
501(c)3 organization. This means that you can ask for grants under
their name and give them a piece of it in return for operating under
their aegis. Its more restrictive than forming your own non-profit,
but it is easier to get going. Once you reach a certain size you can
split off from the umbrella organization.
You may even be able to operate as a regional chapter/affiliate of the
CHM if you ask them.
When I approached them about creating a computer graphics history
museum in Salt Lake City in this manner, they were receptive to the
idea, but I haven't taken it beyond the initial discussion of the idea.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
Good advice.
My advice is that before you start a museum, have the important
foundation poured - incorporation, bylaws, charter, collections
policy, etc.. A museum is a very specialized type of business, and
must be run like one.
1:59 p.m.
One of the easiest ways to get off the ground with
all the above stuff
that Will recommends is to operate under the umbrella of a larger
501(c)3 organization. This means that you can ask for grants under
their name and give them a piece of it in return for operating under
their aegis.
Warning! Thin ice!
Money from grants is to be used for what the grant is for, and NOTHING
else. If, as you propose, a piece of the grant is kicked back to the
larger organization, and this is not spelled out explicitly in the
grant proposal - well, shit...fan...Clorox Wipes...
The catch is that if you explicitly state this scheme in the proposal,
the grant will likely not be given.
--
Will
3:12 p.m.
In article <e1d20d630808191059u15fad11ckf92ecda543a19a74 at mail.gmail.com>,
"William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
Yeah, but part of the grant always goes to administrative overhead.
At any rate, the grant is going to be issued as the parent
organization and not directly to you; that's the whole point of
working under an umbrella organization. But yes, you're correct that
grants are legal documents with restrictions that have to be observed.
You don't want to be operating under an organization that isn't going
to be paying attention to how you write and word grants in their name.
I was being sloppy in my description of the process, IANAL, etc.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
One of the
easiest ways to get off the ground with all the above stuff
that Will recommends is to operate under the umbrella of a larger
501(c)3 organization. This means that you can ask for grants under
their name and give them a piece of it in return for operating under
their aegis.
Warning! Thin ice!
Money from grants is to be used for what the grant is for, and NOTHING
else.
3:40 p.m.
Yeah, but part of the grant always goes to
administrative overhead.
Splat!
"Administrative overhead" is a big red flag for the organizations that
are issuing the grants. It is the easiest way to hide little "extras"
in a grant that get used for things outside the scope of the proposal.
Now these things might be valid expenses - or they may be a new boat
and car for the researcher. Because it is not clear how this overhead
is being spent without an audit of some sort, many organizations will
discard proposals that have "administrative overhead". Every real
organization has administrative overhead with any project it does - it
should be dealt with independently.
The rule of thumb for writing a grant proposal that has a chance of
being accepted is to be extremely specific about the project, and not
include places where "extras" can be hidden. For example, if a
computer museum wants a new floor for the data center, the grant
proposal really should include only the projected costs of the
materials, transportation, and labor, all broken down into real
numbers. Not a penny more to anything not related directly to the
floor.
At any rate, the grant is going to be issued as the
parent
organization and not directly to you; that's the whole point of
working under an umbrella organization. But yes, you're correct that
grants are legal documents with restrictions that have to be observed.
It is wiser to keep any kick backs to the parent organization
completely outside any grants, and wise to keep them above the table.
--
Will
4:03 p.m.
In article <e1d20d630808191240p5c14720bnd6ef38e8f66be975 at mail.gmail.com>,
"William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
The rule of thumb for writing a grant proposal that
has a chance of
being accepted is to be extremely specific about the project, and not
include places where "extras" can be hidden. [...]
Clearly Will knows a *lot* more about writing grants than I do. I've
never written a grant. So don't listen to me, please :-).
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
4:46 p.m.
Clearly Will knows a *lot* more about writing grants
than I do. I've
never written a grant. So don't listen to me, please :-).
I am involved with some organizations and family that feast or famine
with writing such proposals.
And I am glad you are not taking this as a flame - I am saving my fuel
for someone else.
--
Will
11:43 p.m.
On Tuesday 19 August 2008, William Donzelli wrote:
As a data point, my employer (Purdue) requires that 52% of all money
received from a grant that's not for capital equipment go
to "administrative overhead". All grants, and all costs that are not
capital equipment (for Purdue, that's equipment purchases of $2500 or
over) are required to have this, and the individual receiving the grant
funds doesn't see $0.01 of the "overhead" money collected.
This of course doesn't mean that small organizations will be able to do
this, as I'm sure a small startup computer museum won't have the
bargaining power to ask for or expect this, but I'd expect that some
level of administrative overhead expenses would be reasonable, at a
level of a few %.
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Yeah, but part
of the grant always goes to administrative overhead.
Splat!
"Administrative overhead" is a big red flag for the organizations
that are issuing the grants. It is the easiest way to hide little
"extras" in a grant that get used for things outside the scope of the
proposal. 
20 Aug
20 Aug
12:05 a.m.
On Tue, 19 Aug 2008, Patrick Finnegan wrote:
This of course doesn't mean that small
organizations will be able to do
this, as I'm sure a small startup computer museum won't have the
bargaining power to ask for or expect this, but I'd expect that some
level of administrative overhead expenses would be reasonable, at a
level of a few %.
A couple of the CS professors at CSU Bakersfield have talked
semi-seriously about starting a museum.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
8 a.m.
This of course doesn't mean that small
organizations will be able to do
this, as I'm sure a small startup computer museum won't have the
bargaining power to ask for or expect this, but I'd expect that some
level of administrative overhead expenses would be reasonable, at a
level of a few %.
I do not think so. It seems that the rules are different for larger
institutions like Purdue or the Field Museum, mentioned previously.
The organizations that I am familiar with are quite small, generally
less that 10 people at any given time, and are probably more like a
computer museum one of us would start. Anything beyond what is really
needed for a project, the so called administrative overhead, is really
something to be avoided. In the long term, it is good not to have it,
as it builds a good track record showing proper use of a grant. The
second one is easier to get than the first, the third is easier than
either of those, and so forth.
What is normal (and maybe a little source of the confusion here?) is
that it is an unwritten rule to try to ask for more than what the
project really needs, as it is often the case that what is ultimately
granted is less than what was asked for. The key is to not be too
greedy.
--
Will
19 Aug
19 Aug
7:48 p.m.
So my advice to anyone who wants to start a computer museum is: have a
promise of physical space BEFORE you start collecting artifacts;
understand the budget and insurance issues; and never go it alone.
I'd be glad to answer additional questions offline.
Hmmmm, Should have heeded this advise about 20 years ago.. <grin>
=========================================================
George L. Rachor Jr. george at rachors.com
Hillsboro, Oregon http://rachors.com
United States of America Amateur Radio : KD7DCX
1:42 p.m.
In article <6.2.3.4.2.20080819104504.06a82dc0 at mail.threedee.com>,
John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> writes:
I'd love to hear from anyone actually operating a
computer museum.
Operating a computer museum is easy. Operating one for a living is
hard.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
3:27 p.m.
Operating a computer museum is easy. Operating one
for a living is hard.
Yes. I neglected to mention -- our museum is ALL VOLUNTEER. Once in a
while we pay laborers or professional contractors. But our museum is
purely operated by us, out of passion for the artifacts and education and
history. We all have families, full-time day jobs, etc.
If "profit" and "making a living" is the motivation, then opening a
museum
is not a good move. But like any business, you can't just wing it and
expect to succeed long-term. You've got to have a solid plan.
For example, one of first exhibits is focused on computer history from our
local region, and another is focused on computer history of the military
and the Army Signal Corps, because our museum campus was formerly an
important Signal Corp laboratory.
2:18 p.m.
On Aug 19, 2008, at 11:49 AM, John Foust wrote:
Name one thing that's cool and ISN'T a money sink... ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
someone really
should open a vintage computer museum near
chicago...Ive toyed with the idea, i think space in the old 3com
building in rolling meadows would be a fitting place for vintage
computing....
I'd love to hear from anyone actually operating a computer museum.
They seem like money sinks. You need benefactor$. Obviously, the
best location for a computer museum would be where rich computer
people like to live. 
20 Aug
20 Aug
8:11 p.m.
New subject: Opening computer museums - humor
On Aug 19, 2008, at 2:27 PM, bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca wrote:
My mother restored several antique cars when I was growing up.
They certainly *are* money sinks.
Name one
thing that's cool and ISN'T a money sink... ;)
Cars with fins ... :) With this list ... you open the muesum inside the
computer ... This
was my kitchen...
Remeber once you had a sofa there. :)
Ahh, "do-nothing" furniture...I just don't see the point. ;) The
best sofa is the power supply/cooling bench around an early Cray.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
19 Aug
19 Aug
2:24 p.m.
John Foust wrote:
At 03:11 PM 8/18/2008, joe lobocki wrote:
They are.
someone really should open a vintage computer
museum near
chicago...Ive toyed with the idea, i think space in the old 3com
building in rolling meadows would be a fitting place for vintage
computing....
I'd love to hear from anyone actually operating a computer museum.
They seem like money sinks. Obviously, the
best location for a computer museum would be where rich computer
people like to live.
That definitely works.
I'd love to hear the typical ratio between exhibit
space and storage/repair
space, for example.
I think our building is something like 10,000 sqft of exhibit space, 2000
repair space, 1000 'admin' (not including document archives). Estimating
storage is more tricky, as we essentially had the run of a completely separate
building so there wasn't really any hard limit. I'd guess at about 10,000 sqft
of useful storage* being needed to house artifacts which weren't residing in
the public display space, though.
* good-dimensioned rooms with useful vertical racking.
cheers
Jules
4:14 p.m.
William Donzelli wrote:
They also can be money sources, when well run. There are plenty of
museums of all sorts that have managed to balance things out.
Really? I doubt many can survive - and turn a profit - with money coming just
I'd love to hear from anyone actually operating a
computer museum.
They seem like money sinks.
They are. from ticket sales, shop, food sales etc.; they all rely
on public donation
money, lottery money, government handouts etc. to keep
themselves afloat.
4:40 p.m.
Really? I doubt many can survive - and turn a profit
- with money coming
just from ticket sales, shop, food sales etc.; they all rely on public
donation money, lottery money, government handouts etc. to keep themselves
afloat.
Profit tends to be tiny. Any profit pretty much needs to go into an
endowment, for when things get tight.
But, yes, there are plenty of well run museums that have figured out
how to do it. Public donations and government (or corporate, or trust)
handouts are often, but not always, part of the equation.
--
Will
5820
days inactive
5822
days old
31 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
caveguy＠sbcglobal.net -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
evan＠snarc.net -
george＠rachors.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pat＠computer-refuge.org -
Paul_Koning＠Dell.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com