26 Oct
2011
26 Oct
'11
8:46 a.m.
All,
I very much need to sell off my workstation collection. There has been
essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject.
I'm trying to figure out why. Is it:
- My geographical location (Burlington, VT)?
- No interest in these specific items?
- Something else?
It cannot be price, since I didn't post any and am quite flexible in terms
of negotation. Would even consider trades if the incoming item(s) take
up considerable less cubic volume :-).
If it's the location, I'm starting to explore what would be required to
properly pack and ship, e.g. a 45 lb. Sun Ultra 60 with some assurance it
will arrive in one piece. It doesn't look like anyone in the area is
setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual
foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. I
think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to
throw packages around during loading.
If I go to the trouble and expense of buying proper boxes and InstaPak
cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing -
never mind freight costs.
But, would appreciate hearing from the community with alternate ideas.
It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic
recycling.
Steve
--
26 Oct
26 Oct
9:17 a.m.
I very much need to sell off my workstation
collection. There has been
essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject.
I'm trying to figure out why. Is it:
I would guess it is because you said you won't ship.
If I go to the trouble and expense of buying proper
boxes and InstaPak
cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing -
never mind freight costs.
I am broke from being laid off the first time in my career. If not, I would
certainly be in the market for an Ultra 60 and would pay shipping and
packing. I don't think anybody who is serious about wanting something would
object to reimbursing the seller to make sure the equipment isn't damaged.
Some (many?) list members live in far off places and we don't have any hope
on finding interesting equipment where we live because it was simply never
sold here in any significant quantity. Most of what little interesting
stuff I have was bought in America and shipped here. The only option we
have is shipping, and you guys who live where it's relatively easy to ship
stuff and where equipment is plentiful and cheap, have no idea how we feel
when we see all the ads saying "I absolutely will not ship, come pick it up
or it goes to the recycler!"
I have to pay top dollar for everything I buy and I also get skinned alive
on shipping. In better days when I had some cash at least that was an
option. For me at the moment it isn't. By the way, somebody posted about
parting out his V210 (I need PSUs and fans) and we exchanged two emails
and then he disappeared. If you are reading this, please check your spam
folder! I responded as soon as I received your emails.
It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to
electronic recycling.
As well it should!
9:26 a.m.
At 07:46 AM 10/26/2011, Steven Hirsch wrote:
But, would appreciate hearing from the community with
alternate ideas.
It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling.
With items like this, demand may be very low. You may need to advertise
in several targeted venues... is there still a Usenet group? A web site
with a forum? Web sites of other Sun enthusiasts? You might also need
to wait for a response. If there are few people looking, and they're not
looking very often, they might stumble on your notice months from now.
You could advertise on Craigslist, but that'll attract the scrappers
who are only after your gold.
Box-within-box with plenty of foam bricks can protect from the chimps.
It's not free if you do it right.
- John
9:42 a.m.
Steven Hirsch wrote:
All,
I very much need to sell off my workstation collection. There has been
essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the subject.
I'm trying to figure out why. Is it:
- My geographical location (Burlington, VT)?
- No interest in these specific items?
It's over 2000mi for me, much as I'd absolutely love one of the SGIs (and
to be honest, if *any* "real" vintage Unix system fell in my lap I wouldn't
complain; there's nothing around here). But the freight costs on something
like that are going to be astronomical, too.
Part of it's the location I'm sure, and part of it's probably that it's a
bad time of year: the run-up to Christmas gets expensive for people (travel
to see family, gifts etc.), plus for many of us there are winter heating
bills to think about, plus - at least in the US - it's getting close to tax
season. I suspect you'd have more luck waiting until April time next year
if that's possible.
cheers
Jules
10:10 a.m.
Steven Hirsch wrote:
- No interest in these specific items?
You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave
me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him
rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in
my loft for after the divorce... (;
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save
the few who are rich."
-John F. Kennedy
12:06 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Oct 26, 2011, at 10:10 AM, John Many Jars <john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net>
wrote:
Sounds like that divorce is long overdue.
Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of their
spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
Steven Hirsch
wrote:
- No interest in these specific items?
You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave
me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him
rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in
my loft for after the divorce... (; 
1:06 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever
marry someone like that.
The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the
heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- It's the car, right? Chicks dig the car. -- "Batman Forever"
---------------
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 6:06 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wzb0LPM0CDU
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save
the few who are rich."
-John F. Kennedy
An even bigger
mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that.
The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the
heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space. 
4:56 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would
ever marry someone like that.
The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the
heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space. 
6:12 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
> The only cohabitant of my house has four legs,
purrs and admires the
> heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space.
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I caught one of mine (Muon) staring intently at a
schematic diagram
yesterday. What he saw in it, I don;t know, but when he starts repairing
things I am going to get worried...
It's a good thing that you caught him! That's a dangerous early warning
sign. Most cats seem to prefer model M keyboards, but when they start
looking at the screen while they are on the keyboard, watch out. Start
checking between his pads for soldering iron burns! Try to redirect him
into more harmless activities, such as Danny John-Joules on Red Dwarf.
27 Oct
27 Oct
2:17 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
----- Original Message -----
From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2011 9:56 PM
Subject: Re: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
I don't have my own cat, but the neighbours one does love to stop by knowing
he will be undisturbed in the back garden. When he wants something he will
sit ontop of the bin which is directly by the kitchen window, and watch me
(or my parents) whilst meowing for attention!
It is the funniest thing I have ever seen. He does get the occasional scrap
of chicken, and I'm sure his owner (and anyone else he visits) feeds him
well :)
Regards,
Andrew B
aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk
>
> > An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone
like
that.
The only cohabitant of my house has four legs, purrs and admires the
heating abilities of multiple computers in a confined space.
I caught one of mine (Muon) staring intently at a schematic diagram
yesterday. What he saw in it, I don;t know, but when he starts repairing
things I am going to get worried...
-tony 
26 Oct
26 Oct
1:07 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
At 12:06 PM -0400 10/26/11, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Oct 26, 2011, at 10:10 AM, John Many Jars
<john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
Sounds like that divorce is long overdue.
Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and
passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said
spouses would ever marry someone like that.
-Dave
This is why I made sure my wife had seen my *ENTIRE* collection
(including all three storage units I had at the time) before we got
married. Furthermore my collection has shrunk in the time we've been
married, but that has been by my choice, not because she wanted it
to. I often think it bothers me more than it does her.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
Steven
Hirsch wrote:
- No interest in these specific items?
You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend of mine gave
me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him
rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in
my loft for after the divorce... (;
1:29 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 10/26/2011 01:07 PM, Zane H. Healy wrote:
This is why I made sure my wife had seen my *ENTIRE* collection
(including all three storage units I had at the time) before we got
married. Furthermore my collection has shrunk in the time we've been
married, but that has been by my choice, not because she wanted it to. I
often think it bothers me more than it does her.
I'll bet it does. My (very nearly-) spouse would be heartbroken if
she saw anything she knew to be important to me go away, even if my own
priorities had changed. In my case, that's not likely to ever happen (I
understand you're pursuing different passions these days), but if it
were, she'd take me to have my head examined, because she knows just how
much I love my stuff now.
She knows that's a part of who I am, and who I've always been.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
You have to consider the wife factor as well. A friend
of mine gave
me an Apple //+ a while back, and she threatened to insert it in him
rectally. I have loads of my future 8-bit computer museum hidden in
my loft for after the divorce... (;
Sounds like that divorce is long overdue.
Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and
passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses
would ever marry someone like that. 
1:30 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
> Why do some people think it's ok to try to
quash the interests and
> passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said
> spouses would ever marry someone like that.
>
> -Dave
My wife's been VERY tolerant of The Collection, despite it taking over
more than half the basement. But she's also absolutely correct when
she points out facts like, "You don't have time to deal with it
all....do you really need all of it?" She's right, which is why I'm on
a tone-down mode. It's never a major issue in our relationship, just a
gentle correction in the way of, "Really? You aren't HONESTLY going to
every touch all that. And meanwhile, it's eating up our basement...."
Have to say she's right. :)
--
*Nathan E. Pralle*
Computer Geek
www.nathanpralle.com
www.philosyphia.com
www.twitter.com/NPralle
1:14 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 5:06 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
?Sounds like that divorce is long overdue.
?Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of their
spouses? ?An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like that.
It's a mystery to me as well... and I just fixed her damn sewing
machine, again... so my repair and programming abilities come in handy
around here. I think I'm hard done to. (;
She hasn't succeeded, she's just a pain about it. I was trying to
figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing,
but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused
to let me ship it here from Arizona.
I've got an emulated one I built though... so I could play dungeon.
It's available on line...
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save
the few who are rich."
-John F. Kennedy
1:51 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 10/26/2011 01:14 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
Yes, it's the same mentality as what we call "fair weather friends"
over here, with different specifics. Dunno if you guys have a similar
phrase or not. I'm sorry to hear it. :-(
Sounds like
that divorce is long overdue.
Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash the interests and passions of
their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses would ever marry someone like
that.
It's a mystery to me as well... and I just fixed her damn sewing
machine, again... so my repair and programming abilities come in handy
around here. I think I'm hard done to. (; She hasn't succeeded, she's just a pain about
it. I was trying to
figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing,
but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused
to let me ship it here from Arizona.
She...refused to LET you? WTF?
I've got an emulated one I built though... so I
could play dungeon.
It's available on line...
Cool! Where?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
3:02 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
She hasn't
succeeded, she's just a pain about it. I was trying to
figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing,
but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused
to let me ship it here from Arizona.
She...refused to LET you? WTF?
4:21 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
She hasn't succeeded, she's just a pain about
it. I was trying to
figure out how to pick up a PDP in Yorkshire, without her noticing,
but I never heard back. I gave my last PDP away, because she refused
to let me ship it here from Arizona.
She...refused to LET you? WTF? 
4:46 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
I don't think it's an unreasonable setup,
there's a free
bedroom for a
kid, and she can do what she wants with the rest of the
house. And so
much the better if she's a nerd, also. I certainly have no
plans to
constrain her doing things she enjoys, and I expect the
same courtesy.
"..and where am I suppose to store *my* computer collection?! Hmph! It's all
about you isn't it!"
Almost as insane as the "computers don't belong in the kitchen" argument.
What about a difference of opinion on what systems can act as furniture in the living
room? I was able to keep my table top terminal equipment but it did suffer some of the
appeal as a sheet was placed over it lol
5:22 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
Almost as insane as the "computers don't
belong in the kitchen" argument.
She'd have kittens over my Twentieth Anniversary Mac on my bedside table.
Hey, it looks damn good, and with Classilla and MacSSH is a fine remote
terminal. And the Bose audio still sounds great.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Just another Sojourner of the Dispersion (1 Peter 1:1) ---------------------
11:29 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Oct 26, 2011, at 5:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
She'd have kittens over my Twentieth Anniversary
Mac on my bedside table.
Hey, it looks damn good, and with Classilla and MacSSH is a fine remote
terminal. And the Bose audio still sounds great.
That reminds me: what did you do to make MacSSH interoperate nicely with modern SSH
systems? It seems to to barf on all of mine and I've had a hard time tracing down the
problem.
- Dave
27 Oct
27 Oct
12:33 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
That reminds me: what did you do to make MacSSH
interoperate nicely
with modern SSH systems? It seems to to barf on all of mine and I've
had a hard time tracing down the problem.
I know somewhat of ssh, at least if it's ssh v2; I built my own
implementation. I'd be happy to do interop testing with you and try to
figure out what's wrong.
If it _is_ ssh v2, that is. I've never bothered to dig through the
code (the only known documentation as far as I can tell) enough to
figure out ssh v1. (If you don't know which it is, I can tell as soon
as we start doing interop testing.)
Mouse
9:14 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
She'd have
kittens over my Twentieth Anniversary Mac on my bedside table.
Hey, it looks damn good, and with Classilla and MacSSH is a fine remote
terminal. And the Bose audio still sounds great.
That reminds me: what did you do to make MacSSH interoperate nicely with
modern SSH systems?
9:32 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Turn off compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH
uses seems to have some
issues with that.
One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source
code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though.
Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held? If you're able to e.g.
drop it on GitHub or the like, I'd be glad to help where I can; I've got a
perfectly-functional 7300 that I used as my main development machine until it got replaced
by a G4, and it has the final versions (I think) of MPW and CodeWarrior before they went
OS X. I'd love to have build support under MPW as well.
- Dave
9:48 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
Turn off
compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH uses seems to have some
issues with that.
One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source
code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though.
Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held? 
2:07 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
The source is available from what used to be the MacSSH Sourceforge page, but
if you run an svn pull against it what you get is mangled AppleSingle crap.
I've converted most of it now, though I can't attest for any corruption of
the source that I may have missed, so caveat compiler. I'll StuffIt and post
it somewhere when I get a chance.
Will that be usable for System 6? That'll be handy once I get the room to
properly play with my SE/30 with ethernet.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
Turn off compression. The version of lsh that MacSSH
uses seems to have some
issues with that.
One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source
code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though.
Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held?
2:33 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Oct 27, 2011, at 2:07 PM, David Griffith wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
I'll be glad to make sure it does once the source is easily available (and when I have
time). I have MacTCP running OK on my SE with Ethernet, but 4MB max memory seems to be a
bit too small for almost anything useful (that uses TCP/IP, anyway) to run. MacSSH seems
to be particularly troubled and won't even launch under 7 (though it may also be using
'020+ instructions, I dunno).
- Dave
The source is available from what used to be the
MacSSH Sourceforge page, but
if you run an svn pull against it what you get is mangled AppleSingle crap.
I've converted most of it now, though I can't attest for any corruption of
the source that I may have missed, so caveat compiler. I'll StuffIt and post
it somewhere when I get a chance.
Will that be usable for System 6? That'll be handy once I get the room to properly
play with my SE/30 with ethernet.
3:05 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
MacSSH seems to be particularly troubled and won't
even launch under 7
(though it may also be using '020+ instructions, I dunno).
It might be. I use it just fine on a IIci running 7.1. However, the IIci has
a 50MHz '030 Daystar and 72MB of RAM. :P
It does seem that the 68K version is not as well studied as the PPC version.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Seen on hand dryer: "Push button for a message from your congressman." -----
2:46 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
Will that be usable for System 6? That'll be
handy once I get the room to
properly play with my SE/30 with ethernet.
I'm pretty sure it needed features of System 7. Upgrade now :)
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Jesus at a disco: "Help! I've risen and I can't get down!"
-----------------
3:11 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 7:07 PM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
Will that be usable for System 6? ?That'll be
handy once I get the room to
properly play with my SE/30 with ethernet.
That reminds me. My SE died. As I used to be the Mac repair guy at
ASU, and I say it needs an analog board
The problem is I live in England now, and I can't find a European one...
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save
the few who are rich."
-John F. Kennedy
4:28 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Oct 27, 2011, at 3:11 PM, John Many Jars wrote:
That reminds me. My SE died. As I used to be the Mac
repair guy at
ASU, and I say it needs an analog board
The problem is I live in England now, and I can't find a European one...
I have a copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls and another book in the same vein by Larry Pina. If
you want to fix the analog board instead of finding a new one (be very careful, of
course), I'd be glad to scan and send a few pages!
- Dave
4:48 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 9:28 PM, David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> wrote:
I have a copy of the Dead Mac Scrolls and another book
in the same vein by Larry Pina. ?If you want to fix the analog board instead of finding a
new one (be very careful, of course), I'd be glad to scan and send a few pages!
Wow thanks! I'd love to give it a go! (I haven't electrocuted myself
in ages...)
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save
the few who are rich."
-John F. Kennedy
6:25 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice - dead mac scrolls
py of the Dead Mac Scrolls and another book in the same vein by Larry
Pina. If you want to fix the analog board instead of finding a new one
(be very careful, of course), I'd be glad to scan and send a few pages!
Wow thanks! I'd love to give it a go! (I
haven't electrocuted myself
in ages...)
Where in the uk are you.. you can borrow my copy if local
Roger
7:04 p.m.
New subject: hacking MacSSH - Re: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 27/10/11 9:32 AM, David Riley wrote:
On Oct 27, 2011, at 9:14 AM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
I can also help; I keep a 10.4 machine around for MPW (& CW). Agree that
MPW build is ideal.
--Toby
Turn off compression. The version of lsh that
MacSSH uses seems to have some
issues with that.
One of my "round tuit" projects is to update MacSSH; I do have the source
code. I have to get it building first in CodeWarrior though.
Is the source code generally available, or is it closely held? If you're able to
e.g. drop it on GitHub or the like, I'd be glad to help where I can; I've got a
perfectly-functional 7300 that I used as my main development machine until it got replaced
by a G4, and it has the final versions (I think) of MPW and CodeWarrior before they went
OS X. I'd love to have build support under MPW as well.
- Dave
26 Oct
26 Oct
4:59 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
I think
I'll die alone :oD And HAPPY! :D :D :D
I don't think it's an
unreasonable setup, there's a free bedroom for a
kid, and she can do what she wants with the rest of the house. And so
much the better if she's a nerd, also. I certainly have no plans to
constrain her doing things she enjoys, and I expect the same courtesy.
Being married badly is surely a greater agony than being a perpetual
bachelor, and being a perpetual bachelor has many advantages. If Ms.
Right comes by and is willing, great. If she never comes, I'll still have
a lot of fun things to do with my life. 
5:39 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 26/10/11 21:59, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Oh my, I feel so lonely, but it is so good to be
lonely :D
Hell is, after all, other people. :)
Well, that's not true, there are some people I can.. um.. "tolerate",
but the vast majority... yeeaaaah... the above rule applies :)
I'm fairly certain that the York to Leeds all-stops commuter trains
contain the highest number of morons per square metre than any other
area of the planet. I've lost count of the number of times I've been
told "that's MY seat" in various ways (hint: you can't reserve seats on
commuter trains -- only long-distance express trains, and a walk-on
ticket doesn't get you a reserved seat *in any situation*).
The most common argument? "Don't you know who I am?!"
Second most common: "I'm on my way to a very important business meeting,
and I need to arrive in a presentable manner."
(and you want to sit on a seat which people have no doubt put their
muddy feet -- and probably used chewing gum -- on? WTF?)
*sigh*
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
27 Oct
27 Oct
4:06 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 2011-10-26 23:39, Philip Pemberton wrote:
I'm fairly certain that the York to Leeds
all-stops commuter trains
contain the highest number of morons per square metre than any other
area of the planet.
It's true of commuter trains everywhere, I suspect.
Sometimes I miss commuting by train, though: my most gratifying times
were when I could collect disdainful looks from suits obviously offended
at my jeans-and-t-shirt attire, only to see them removed from the first
class compartments when the conductor arrived. My commute lay on an
international line, so lots of business travelers clueless about the
ticketing system and what sections of the train their tickets allowed
them to pick seats on.
.tsooJ
26 Oct
26 Oct
9:59 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer
collection around without complaint and an F-15 too! :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
10:34 p.m.
New subject: Non-Gestapo spouses
I'll put mine in the "cool" category as well. She only razzed me a bit
that ~15,000# of our recent professional move was my Commodore
collection and related items.
She did question the expense of attending computer shows a few years
back, but suggested that if I could find a way to pay for the travel,
there would be no strife. Thus, RETRO Innovations was born.
She does laugh a bit as dozens of retro items leave the house in little
flat rate boxes each week, but in a "I'll laugh all the way to the bank"
way.
And, bless her heart, as she looked on my computer and saw the recent
C65 eBay listing that topped out at $20.1K, she simply said, "You have
two of those, right? We should probably get individual insurance riders
on them."
No, not a geek. I, for one, am glad. one geek in this abode is all
that we need.
Jim
11:36 p.m.
New subject: Non-Gestapo spouses
mine is a sweetheart. She understands, and gets also that there is a
lot of value in the "junk". I am completely puzzled by a spouse or
family which will destroy an estate which is preserved for 40 or 50
years. Either that or bring in appraisers and auction experts who think
that the only thing with real value are used oil cans and junk cars.
Cited earlier here is the case on one of the idiot auction programs who
missed a very nice Dec cache.
Nothing is likely "worthless" to everyone, there probably is a buyer out
there for most anything at some price.
I know should something happen to me, mine will inform this list among
others to please come help. I know that there are those in the LA area
who have helped with estates, and hopefully they'd find buyers at fair
value for my spouse. Plus hopefully I'll have the toys to play with
until then, rather than disposing of them early.
Jim
On 10/26/2011 7:34 PM, Jim Brain wrote:
I'll put mine in the "cool" category as
well. She only razzed me a
bit that ~15,000# of our recent professional move was my Commodore
collection and related items.
27 Oct
27 Oct
8:10 p.m.
New subject: Non-Gestapo spouses
mine is a sweetheart. ?She understands, and gets also
that there is a lot of
value in the "junk". ?I am completely puzzled by a spouse or family which
will destroy an estate which is preserved for 40 or 50 years. ?Either that
or bring in appraisers and auction experts who think that the only thing
with real value are used oil cans and junk cars.
Ad of course, we all have updated our wills to include our collections, right?
I hear crickets...
--
Will
8:28 p.m.
New subject: Non-Gestapo spouses
On 10/27/2011 08:10 PM, William Donzelli wrote:
This list is soooo predictable. ;)
But yes, I have at least.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
mine is a
sweetheart. She understands, and gets also that there is a lot of
value in the "junk". I am completely puzzled by a spouse or family which
will destroy an estate which is preserved for 40 or 50 years. Either that
or bring in appraisers and auction experts who think that the only thing
with real value are used oil cans and junk cars.
Ad of course, we all have updated our wills to include our collections, right?
I hear crickets... 
11:35 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 26 Oct 2011, at 6:59 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer collection
around without complaint and an F-15 too! :)
Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things: minicomputers, test
equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes, metalworking and cabinet shops and an
absurd number of impractical automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection
of lab equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :)
(There's a reason we have 237 acres -- we need the space :P)
--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E
27 Oct
27 Oct
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Christian Kennedy wrote:
On 26 Oct 2011, at 6:59 PM, Gene Buckle wrote:
Well played sir! Well played!
*laughs*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
I've got the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer collection
around without complaint and an F-15 too! :)
Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things:
minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes,
metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical
automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab
equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :)
(There's a reason we have 237 acres -- we need the space :P)
4:26 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large,
heavy things:
minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes,
metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical
automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab
equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :)
Hang on... Youre wife has an elecron microscope (or several? She doens;'t
happen to have an identical twin sister does she????
-tony
7:43 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
Hang on... Youre wife has an elecron microscope (or
several? She
doens;'t happen to have an identical twin sister does she????
...I was thinking similar things myself...
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
28 Oct
28 Oct
12:53 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 27 Oct 2011, at 1:26 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
We all have our quirks; SEMs and TEMs (and high vacuum stuff in general) is one of hers.
I meant it about "heavy equipment" as well; her 5'2", 117 pound self is
pretty adept with a backhoe and now she's looking for "something" that's
track-laying.
I'm not sure the world would survive two of them; our daughter is bad enough :P
--
Dr. Christian Kennedy
chris at mainecoon.com AF6AP
http://www.mainecoon.com PGP KeyID 108DAB97
PGP fingerprint: 4E99 10B6 7253 B048 6685 6CBC 55E
Mine tolerates
multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things:
minicomputers, test equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes,
metalworking and cabinet shops and an absurd number of impractical
automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection of lab
equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :)
Hang on... Youre wife has an elecron microscope (or several? She doens;'t
happen to have an identical twin sister does she????
30 Oct
30 Oct
12:55 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 10/26/2011 11:35 PM, Christian Kennedy wrote:
Oh, VERY cool! That's one of the reasons I was so hot to get our new
place, to have a nice big lab. I have an old-but-grand SEM, an ETEC
AutoScan, that I'm dying to get running again. I ran it for a long time
when I lived in MD, but never had the space in FL.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
I've got
the best spouse ever. She lets me keep my vintage computer collection around without
complaint and an F-15 too! :)
Mine tolerates multiple hobbies that involve large, heavy things: minicomputers, test
equipment, radio gear, actual *flying* airplanes, metalworking and cabinet shops and an
absurd number of impractical automobiles. In exchange I have to tolerate her collection
of lab equipment, electron microscopes and heavy equipment :)
(There's a reason we have 237 acres -- we need the space :P)
27 Oct
27 Oct
11:37 a.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 6:51 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
telnet bbs.cortex-media.info
which is my bbs software ... log in and create an account.
then select game from the main menu and then 2 for dungeon
the system will automatically connect you and create a rsts/e account for you.
enjoy!
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save
the few who are rich."
-John F. Kennedy
?She...refused to LET you? ?WTF?
Well, I could have put my foot down I suppose. I decided it was a
battle not worth fighting... I made sure it was in good hands before
I left.
I've got
an emulated one I built though... so I could play dungeon.
It's available on line...
?Cool! ?Where? 
5:42 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Thu, Oct 27, 2011 at 11:37 AM, John Many Jars
<john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net> wrote:
telnet bbs.cortex-media.info
then select game from the main menu and then 2 for dungeon
Interesting. I've never played it on a RSTS machine - it's an older
version where the bank is new and it still has Bob Supnik's name in
the paper.
Neat. Thanks for sharing.
-ethan
26 Oct
26 Oct
1:48 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
At 11:06 AM 10/26/2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash
the interests and passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses
would ever marry someone like that.
Having forever solved the Windows vs. Anything debate, McGuire moves
on to resolving issues of the human heart.
I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the
average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their
offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead?
- John
2:37 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
I've still got a question about Windows vs.
Anything, though. If the
average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their
offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead?
elm and vi, as God intended.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- This geek BRKs for 6502s. --------------------------------------------------
3 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 10/26/2011 02:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
emacs! ;)
[dave ducks]
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
I've still
got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the
average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their
offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead?
elm and vi, as God intended.
3:08 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:00 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 10/26/2011 02:37 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
?emacs! ?;)
? ? [dave ducks]
teco
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: ?"The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"If a free society cannot help the many that are poor, it cannot save
the few who are rich."
-John F. Kennedy
I've still got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. ?If the
average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their
offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead?
elm and vi, as God intended. 
3:18 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder... if one finds them selfs
swamped make it known who knows someone out there might be looking for
something in ur pile so its allways good to keep a runing invintory and said
pile somewhat sorted of what you got cause it could come to be a help when u
need something they got and u got what they got ect... otherwise things go
in the trash and then were left with one less of said item out there to keep
our stuff going thus making it that much more harder to find.............
3:56 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
Adrian Stoness wrote:
yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder...
I figure you're not a hoarder unless you can't see the house for the things
that you're hoarding ;-)
I'm on a promise not to fill the house up with junk - but I've got a
workshop, barn, sheds, garage, basement etc. to fill up first before it
ever gets to that point :-)
cheers
Jules
4:22 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
if u do at least sort it and make sure its stored properly.......... vsoit
does not get recked nothing worse then someone that has all this usefull
stuff and lets it get recked cause its not put somewhere proper aka making
sure roofs don't leak ect
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 2:56 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
Adrian Stoness wrote:
yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder...
I figure you're not a hoarder unless you can't see the house for the things
that you're hoarding ;-)
I'm on a promise not to fill the house up with junk - but I've got a
workshop, barn, sheds, garage, basement etc. to fill up first before it ever
gets to that point :-)
cheers
Jules
5:27 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Adrian Stoness wrote:
yea gotta be carefull not to become a hoarder... if
one finds them selfs
swamped make it known who knows someone out there might be looking for
something in ur pile so its allways good to keep a runing invintory and said
pile somewhat sorted of what you got cause it could come to be a help when u
need something they got and u got what they got ect... otherwise things go
in the trash and then were left with one less of said item out there to keep
our stuff going thus making it that much more harder to find.............
We can probably talk you through fixing your "Shift" and comma keys, and
solving the bounce problem of your '.'
I thought that 'U' was abbreviation for "university".
We WILL keep poking at you until you are as much of an old fart as the
rest of us.
9:55 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Well. Isn't THAT special?
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
elm and vi, as
God intended.
Or maybe satan...
9:54 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
ITYM Pine or Alpine. HTH. HAND.
:)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
I've still
got a question about Windows vs. Anything, though. If the
average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their
offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead?
elm and vi, as God intended.
2:42 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
On 10/26/2011 01:48 PM, John Foust wrote:
At 11:06 AM 10/26/2011, Dave McGuire wrote:
Or the "human heartless", in this case!
Why do some people think it's ok to try to
quash the interests and passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said
spouses would ever marry someone like that.
Having forever solved the Windows vs. Anything debate, McGuire moves
on to resolving issues of the human heart. I've still got a question about Windows vs.
Anything, though. If the
average business person shouldn't use Outlook and Word due to their
offensive decrepitude, what should they be using instead?
LibreOffice (OpenOffice) works great. For mail and calendaring,
there are probably a hundred decent choices now, that'd take some more
research. These are just my opinions.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
5 p.m.
New subject: Gestapo spouses, was Re: Need advice
Why do some people think it's ok to try to quash
the interests and
passions of their spouses? An even bigger mystery is why said spouses
would ever marry someone like that.
This probably expalins why I;m not married, but I agree with you. I think
that a parson needs to have some interests in common with their spouse
(after all if they have nothing in common, why did they get married?), but
it's unlikely they will share _all_ interests. However, they should
respect each other's interests and you want to tinker with classic
computers while your wife enjoys one of her hobbies I can't see a problem.
-tony
9:44 a.m.
But, would appreciate hearing from the community with
alternate ideas.
It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling.
If you need to relieve some pressure, perhaps go ahead and junk some
of the more common stuff - the Suns, basically. There are just so many
decent used Ultras kicking around the Northeast and Eastern Seaboard.
There are probably very few people that would drive way up to you for
a machine they could get in their back yards.
And even the DEC stuff will be hard to find homes for, with DECland
being just a few hours away.
Can you hang onto the stuff until the April MIT Flea?
--
Will
8:26 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, William Donzelli wrote:
I've actually had a few nibbles, incredibly enough. I'm looking for
someone in the area who actually knows how to pack.
But, would
appreciate hearing from the community with alternate ideas.
It is going to kill me if I have to drag this stuff to electronic recycling.
If you need to relieve some pressure, perhaps go ahead and junk some
of the more common stuff - the Suns, basically. There are just so many
decent used Ultras kicking around the Northeast and Eastern Seaboard.
There are probably very few people that would drive way up to you for
a machine they could get in their back yards. And even the DEC stuff will be hard to find homes for,
with DECland
being just a few hours away.
Can you hang onto the stuff until the April MIT Flea?
That may happen by default, but I hope not to have it here then.
Steve
--
10:06 a.m.
I very much need to sell off my workstation
collection. There has
been essentially zero interest in my posting from last week on the
subject. I'm trying to figure out why. Is it:
- My geographical location (Burlington, VT)?
- No interest in these specific items?
- Something else?
Speaking personally, a cross between the last two. There's very little
there I actually want - Sun type-3 keyboards and mice, and maybe a
Multia - and your "will not ship" pretty much killed even those for me.
(I suppose the latter could be viewed as the first of your list, since
if you were in Montreal or Ottawa it wouldn't be a big deal....)
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:33 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110260837270.11983 at duo>,
Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> writes:
will arrive in one piece. It doesn't look like
anyone in the area is
setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual
foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. I
think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to
throw packages around during loading.
I keep seeing this assertion made, that somehow its all the fault of the
rough handling that shipping companies give to the packages and not the
fault of the way the unit was packed.
I've had many, many heavy terminals and workstations shipped through these
packaging companies to my house. In each and every single case, the ones
that were damaged during shipping were the ones that were poorly packed.
NEVER has an item that had proper packing, even when the box clearly
showed signs of rough treatment, been damaged.
My data says its all in how you pack it, NOT whether or not UPS/FedEx
hires "chimps" to do the transfer of package from distribution center
to truck to delivery location.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
27 Oct
27 Oct
1:40 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Richard wrote:
In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110260837270.11983 at
duo>,
Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> writes:
I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap to
turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. Put it
in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of styrofoam
in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from packing. There
was a time though that a monitor was damaged because what looked like
two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of the box. A friend of
mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a forklift through the box.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
will arrive in one piece. It doesn't look
like anyone in the area is
setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual
foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. I
think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to
throw packages around during loading.
I keep seeing this assertion made, that somehow its all the fault of the
rough handling that shipping companies give to the packages and not the
fault of the way the unit was packed.
I've had many, many heavy terminals and workstations shipped through these
packaging companies to my house. In each and every single case, the ones
that were damaged during shipping were the ones that were poorly packed.
NEVER has an item that had proper packing, even when the box clearly
showed signs of rough treatment, been damaged.
My data says its all in how you pack it, NOT whether or not UPS/FedEx
hires "chimps" to do the transfer of package from distribution center
to truck to delivery location. 
2:01 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote:
I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These
things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap
to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around.
Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of
styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from
packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because
what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of
the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a
forklift through the box.
I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box
home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use
extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very
well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then
bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness.
in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than
ordinary sheet stryofoam.
--Chuck
3:21 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
This reminds me of when I was working for DEC in the mid '70's
I was involved in the sale and delivery of among other things LA36's
Those of you who collect DEC system's will probably know that the LA36 was a
30cps printing terminal. They were big. About 3' x 2' on top and it stood on
its own plinth about 2'6" off the ground. The plinth housed the logic board
and the PSU.
Each one arrived bolted to its own pallet, a large cardboard box over that
followed by a cardboard lid. The box and lid were strapped to the pallet.
I used the have to go to the DEC warehouse at Heathrow (London Airport) with
the shipping insurance loss adjuster to agree on damaged items.
We found one that neither of us could believe. Some Muppet had managed to
put a forklift fork right through from front to back. That is to say through
the cardboard outer box, the steel front of the plinth, the logic board, the
steel rear door and the back of the cardboard box!
PS I don?t have an LA36 or an LA180 in my collection. I anybody has a spare
on in the UK I'd be interested.
Regards
?
Rod Smallwood
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Chuck Guzis
Sent: 27 October 2011 07:02
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote:
I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These
things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap
to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around.
Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of
styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from
packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because
what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of
the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a
forklift through the box.
I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box
home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use
extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very
well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then
bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness.
in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than
ordinary sheet stryofoam.
--Chuck
8:29 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote:
I would have thought that material to be overly rigid. Glad to hear that
you've had success with it.
I'm trying to chase down a source for small quantities of InstPak RT bags.
These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break
a capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It
expands and custom-fabricates a corner or end section.
They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons
of 36.
Steve
--
I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These
things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap
to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around.
Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of
styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from
packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because
what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of
the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a
forklift through the box.
I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box
home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use
extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very
well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then
bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness.
in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than
ordinary sheet stryofoam.
8:45 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Steven Hirsch wrote:
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I buy most of my packing materials from a shop in Bakersfield that appears
to sell them individually. How many do you need?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote:
I would have thought that material to be overly rigid. Glad to hear that
you've had success with it.
I'm trying to chase down a source for small quantities of InstPak RT bags.
These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break a
capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It expands
and custom-fabricates a corner or end section.
They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons of
36. I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These
things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap
to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around.
Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of
styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from
packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because
what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of
the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a
forklift through the box.
I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box
home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use
extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very
well. The stuff cuts by simply scoring with a utility knife and then
bending to snap the section off. Usually provided in 1" thickness.
in either 2x8' or 4x8' sheets. It's quite a bit stronger than
ordinary sheet stryofoam.
3:51 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
> I'm trying to chase down a source for small
quantities of InstPak RT bags.
> These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break a
> capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It expands
> and custom-fabricates a corner or end section.
> They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons of
> 36.
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, David Griffith wrote:
I buy most of my packing materials from a shop in
Bakersfield that appears
to sell them individually. How many do you need?
How do you pack them for shipping?
4:06 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
I'd probably wrap them in some bubbles to prevent them from going off in
the post.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
> I'm
trying to chase down a source for small quantities of InstPak RT bags.
> These are gray plastic bags with a two-part foam system inside. You break a
> capsule at one end by pushing on it and wrap it around the item. It expands
> and custom-fabricates a corner or end section.
> They are ~$3-4 each, but the distributors want you to buy them in cartons of
> 36.
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, David Griffith wrote:
I buy most of my packing materials from a shop in
Bakersfield that appears
to sell them individually. How many do you need?
How do you pack them for shipping?
1:21 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
In article <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD at cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote:
I've received heavy items packed this way that were damaged from shipping
because the stiff styrofoam basically transmits forces on the box directly
to the object. I've NEVER received damaged heavy items that were
cushioned with packing peanuts and no voids.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These
things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap
to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around.
Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of
styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from
packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because
what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of
the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a
forklift through the box.
I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from most big box
home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use
extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very
well. 
2:09 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
Richard wrote:
In article <4EA89161.22479.32D0FAD at
cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
I have. Peanuts *will* shift if the shipped item is dense, no matter
how tightly packed in. Sooner or later the item will be sitting flat on
the bottom of the box.
Peanuts are horribly unpleasant in other ways - unpacking, disposal,
cleanup when they inevitably get loose....
Bubble wrap and styrofoam are my favorite padding, closely followed
by *appropriately deployed* ewspaper.
Doc Shipley
On 26 Oct 2011 at 22:40, David Griffith wrote:
I've received heavy items packed this way that were damaged from shipping
because the stiff styrofoam basically transmits forces on the box directly
to the object. I've NEVER received damaged heavy items that were
cushioned with packing peanuts and no voids. I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These
things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap
to turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around.
Put it in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of
styrofoam in that clearance. Never had a machine arrive broken from
packing. There was a time though that a monitor was damaged because
what looked like two foot long spikey thing slammed into the top of
the box. A friend of mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a
forklift through the box.
I use the extruded styrofoam insulation available from
most big box
home stores. I construct a "box within a box" using it and then use
extra pieces to brace the object so it won't move. It works very
well.
31 Oct
31 Oct
3:55 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
In article <4EA99E4B.5030900 at vaxen.net>,
Doc <doc at vaxen.net> writes:
I have. Peanuts *will* shift if the shipped item
is dense, no matter
how tightly packed in. Sooner or later the item will be sitting flat on
the bottom of the box.
I disagree and when packed in properly I've never had this happen
with heavy items.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
27 Oct
27 Oct
2:09 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Oct 27, 2011, at 1:21 PM, Richard wrote:
I've received heavy items packed this way that
were damaged from shipping
because the stiff styrofoam basically transmits forces on the box directly
to the object. I've NEVER received damaged heavy items that were
cushioned with packing peanuts and no voids.
My biggest problem with peanuts has been their tendency to move about in the box; perhaps
I should wrap a bunch of peanuts around the item so they don't move quite so much?
How do you usually get around the fluid dynamic problem?
I've found wadded up newsprint to be a surprisingly good packing material (and a great
use for old phone books and Digi-Key catalogs during the summer when I'm not using
them to start fires). It doesn't shift as much as Styrofoam, though I imagine for
extremely heavy objects it would end up compressed too much.
- Dave
8:24 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, David Riley wrote:
My biggest problem with peanuts has been their
tendency to move about in
the box; perhaps I should wrap a bunch of peanuts around the item so
they don't move quite so much? How do you usually get around the fluid
dynamic problem?
And always cram a lot of peanuts INSIDE the item, particularly monitors,
disk drives, etc.
I've found wadded up newsprint to be a
surprisingly good packing
material (and a great use for old phone books and Digi-Key catalogs
during the summer when I'm not using them to start fires). It doesn't
shift as much as Styrofoam, though I imagine for extremely heavy objects
it would end up compressed too much.
But, always select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose
content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to
the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland
Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always
welcom in certain states.
9:05 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
But, always select carefully to make sure that you
find newspapers whose
content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to
the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland
Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always
welcom in certain states.
I remember a story about someone in IBM's packing department who was
learning Russian for some reason. When an order came up to go to the FBI
or CIA, he packed stuff with old copies of Pravda. That prompted a little
investigation.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
9:24 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
On 27/10/11 9:05 PM, David Griffith wrote:
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Fred Cisin wrote:
From Ted Nelson's 1984 "Dream Machines/Computer Lib", so marginally
on-topic:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/qu1j0t3/6268985863/
--T
But, always select carefully to make sure that
you find newspapers whose
content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to
the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland
Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always
welcom in certain states.
I remember a story about someone in IBM's packing department who was
learning Russian for some reason. When an order came up to go to the FBI
or CIA, he packed stuff with old copies of Pravda. That prompted a
little investigation.
31 Oct
31 Oct
3:59 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
On 10/27/11 7:24 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
But, always select carefully to make sure that you
find newspapers whose
content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to
the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland
Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always
welcom in certain states.
I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from
China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper,
turned out to be very explicit porn.
I wasn't as offended as probably should have been.
Doc
6:25 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were
shipped direct from
China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper,
turned out to be very explicit porn.
I wasn't as offended as probably should have been.
I suspect I'd have been rather more offended my the Chinese tools...
-tony
8 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
Which seller was this ;-)
On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
--
Doug Jackson
VK1ZDJ
http://www.dougswordclock.com/ -< My clocks
http://www.vk1zdj.net -< My Amature Radio Activities
I ordered
some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from
China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper,
turned out to be very explicit porn.
I wasn't as offended as probably should have been.
I suspect I'd have been rather more offended my the Chinese tools...
-tony
1 Nov
1 Nov
3:29 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
On 10/31/11 5:25 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I admit I had very low hope for the tools - diamond grinder barrels
for a .5" x .5" Foredom sander drum - but at the price point I thought
I'd try 'em. These, but I think I paid $8 USD shipped for 12:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/350502972455
They suck. They're neither exactly round nor balanced and the
nickel-alloy base gets hot and cooks the expandable rubber drum.
However, with a bit of water-cooling and an old hand-piece (so I don't
hammer the bearings out of my good one) they move a lot of material
mighty fast.
I've just got the last of the parts needed to assemble my tabletop
lathe, and a suitable heatproof mandrel for those drums is high on the
project list.
Doc
I ordered
some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from
China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper,
turned out to be very explicit porn.
I wasn't as offended as probably should have been.
I suspect I'd have been rather more offended my the Chinese tools...
31 Oct
31 Oct
8:07 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
But, always
select carefully to make sure that you find newspapers whose
content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to
the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland
Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always
welcom in certain states.
I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from
China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper,
turned out to be very explicit porn.
I wasn't as offended as probably should have been.
1 Nov
1 Nov
3:23 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
On 10/31/11 7:07 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
So the packing material had tools as well?
OH!!! He WENT there, yes he did!
:) (and yes, it did)
Doc
But, always select carefully to make sure that you
find newspapers whose
content will be offensive to the recipient. If shipping to Langley, go to
the international newsstand and get a few issues of Pravda. Hor Homeland
Security, get Al jazeara (sp?) materials. And pornography is always
welcom in certain states.
I ordered some tools on Ebay last year that were shipped direct from
China. They came packed in crumpled what-I-thought-was-newspaper,
turned out to be very explicit porn.
I wasn't as offended as probably should have been.
31 Oct
31 Oct
3:56 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
In article <BF476900-9613-4132-B85E-0D3E88A060CB at gmail.com>,
David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com> writes:
How do you usually get around the fluid dynamic
problem?
If you're truly paranoid about it, you can put them in a bag.
I've found wadded up newsprint to be a
surprisingly good packing material
Absolutely horrible. Does absolutely nothing to protect items that
weigh anything more than a few ounces.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
27 Oct
27 Oct
1:11 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110262235320.28156 at sleipnir.cs.csubak.edu>,
David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> writes:
I've shipped a few IMSAIs and Altairs. These
things weigh around 45
pounds. My usual thing is to wrap it in enough large pink bubblewrap to
turn it into a marshmellow: about six inches of wrap all around. Put it
in a box with four or so inches of clearance and put blocks of styrofoam
in that clearance.
Basically you're using the bubble wrap for shock absorption. My
problem with people using blocks of styrofoam is that they *think*
this provides shock absorption when it doesn't. Packing peanuts are
superior in this regard. I have had units arrived damaged because
people use bricks of styrofoam and think they're providing protection
when they aren't. There's a reason people use peanuts and not busted
up bricks for shipping.
mine lost an Atari Abaq when some doofus drove a
forklift through the box.
There isn't much you can do to protect against this and it will
always be a risk. But this isn't typical and not the result of
"chimps" tossing your box off the truck.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
2 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On 27 Oct 2011 at 11:11, Richard wrote:
Basically you're using the bubble wrap for shock
absorption. My
problem with people using blocks of styrofoam is that they *think*
this provides shock absorption when it doesn't. Packing peanuts are
superior in this regard. I have had units arrived damaged because
people use bricks of styrofoam and think they're providing protection
when they aren't. There's a reason people use peanuts and not busted
up bricks for shipping.
I guess, YMMV. One problem with styro peanuts is that they will
allow heavy objects to shift in the package. And that essentially
seals the fate of the cargo, once it's been allowed to move in the
box. I've shipped CRTs with rigid foam, but with a "balloon" of
bagged styro peanuts between the wall of the box and the face of the
screen. A partially inflated child's plastic beach ball works
similarly.
I've received items packed in styro peanuts only and they've been
heavily damaged because the object was allowed to move in the box.
Once that happens, the momentum of the heavy object becomes the tool
of its own destruction.
That aspect of the cargo shifting really is the cause of much damage.
A local packager here who ships furniture and fine art doesn't use
styrofoam blocks or peanuts for valuable stuff. Instead, they
construct a "cradle" of wood or laminated corrugated cardboard that
firmly holds the object in place. Double- or triple-walled cardboard
is used for the box itself; paintings are often boxed in plywood
crates.
None of this is going to save you from the cowboy forklift driver or
the UPS freight handler that allows the object to drop from the
loading conveyor belt, however.
But again, YMMV.
--Chuck
4:28 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 27 Oct 2011 at 11:11, Richard wrote:
Probably 85-90% of my smashed-at-arrival eBay purchases fit that
pathology. Vibration and settling causes the unit to migrate against one
of the inner surfaces of the box and... that's all she wrote when it drops
off the ramp at the next depot.
I would trust nothing but a _very_ sturdy box and InstaPak end pieces for
shipping, e.g. an Ultra 60.
I found some eBay sellers with small quantities of InstaPak bags. If it
comes to it, I will go that route.
Steve
--
Basically you're using the bubble wrap for
shock absorption. My
problem with people using blocks of styrofoam is that they *think*
this provides shock absorption when it doesn't. Packing peanuts are
superior in this regard. I have had units arrived damaged because
people use bricks of styrofoam and think they're providing protection
when they aren't. There's a reason people use peanuts and not busted
up bricks for shipping.
I guess, YMMV. One problem with styro peanuts is that they will
allow heavy objects to shift in the package. And that essentially
seals the fate of the cargo, once it's been allowed to move in the
box. I've shipped CRTs with rigid foam, but with a "balloon" of
bagged styro peanuts between the wall of the box and the face of the
screen. A partially inflated child's plastic beach ball works
similarly.
I've received items packed in styro peanuts only and they've been
heavily damaged because the object was allowed to move in the box.
Once that happens, the momentum of the heavy object becomes the tool
of its own destruction.
5:19 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On 27 Oct 2011 at 16:28, Steven Hirsch wrote:
I would trust nothing but a _very_ sturdy box and
InstaPak end pieces
for shipping, e.g. an Ultra 60.
I found some eBay sellers with small quantities of InstaPak bags. If
it comes to it, I will go that route.
Another option for really secure packaging is to wrap the item in a
plastic bag and use some polyurethane floatation foam (a 2 part
pourable mixture). Do the packaging in 2 pours and use some scrap
foam blocks to support the object off the bottom of the box.
Separate the two pours with a couple of sheets of plastic sheeting.
It's not cheap--IIRC, the one-quart size that expands to about 2 cu.
ft. costs about USD$40. It should be available at most marine supply
outlets, where it's sold as a bulkhead filler. Another althernative
would be to find a cooperative home insulation outfit.
I've done this once; it worked out well, but the stuff is very messy
to clean up. Wear gloves and old clothes because it's very sticky.
--Chuck
31 Oct
31 Oct
3:57 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
In article <4EA96866.31315.128FC71 at cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
[...] and use some scrap
foam blocks to support the object off the bottom of the box.
*EVERY* package I've received with "scrap foam" blocks has been damaged.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
5:11 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On 31 Oct 2011 at 13:57, Richard wrote:
*EVERY* package I've received with "scrap
foam" blocks has been
damaged. -- "
You didn't bother to read the post, did you? The "scrap foam" was
mentioned as a way to support an object so that the poured
polyurethane foam could migrate under it. You could just as easily
have employed used toilet paper cores. The idea is to *temporarily*
support something long enough for the urethane foam to set.
--Chuck
5:56 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
You didn't bother to read the post, did you? The
"scrap foam" was
mentioned as a way to support an object so that the poured
polyurethane foam could migrate under it. You could just as easily
have employed used toilet paper cores.
I have NEVER received a damaged package packed with used toilet paoper
cores!
6:09 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Oct 31, 2011, at 5:56 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I've never received a damaged package packed with live, angry baboons, either. The
courier took some damage upon opening the package, though.
You didn't bother to read the post, did you?
The "scrap foam" was
mentioned as a way to support an object so that the poured
polyurethane foam could migrate under it. You could just as easily
have employed used toilet paper cores.
I have NEVER received a damaged package packed with used toilet paoper
cores!
5:53 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Mon, 31 Oct 2011, Richard wrote:
*EVERY* package I've received with "scrap
foam" blocks has been damaged.
*EVERY* package I've received with
"peanuts" has been damaged.
Maybe we should just not ship anything!
I ordered a box of "peanuts" to use for shipping. It arrived damaged.
28 Oct
28 Oct
2:45 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
it's true things will move around w/peanuts, but couldn't you just put a piece of
cardboard between the bottom layer of peanuts (and maybe also around the sides and top) to
prevent settling.
I used to be concerned about using sytrofoam slabs (which I'm able to get a lot of
these days). But the newer kinds are very soft. Several layers will provide adequate
protection imho (except for hard drives maybe). You could also create a sandwich, one
layer of slab, a layer of peanuts, another slab, etc.
I don't like paying for boxes and shipping materials when you can obtain all you want
if you grease the right palms. Or dive in the skip.
Years ago a guy who was shipping a lot of monitors stated that oftentimes these units
would be put on a vibration machine to shake off loose solder and whatnot, and test the
units overall integrity. I kind of doubt that's done in general, it sounds more like a
mil-spec type test. But it just stands to reason if something can't take a bit of
jarring, it's bound to fail somehow anyway.
29 Oct
29 Oct
5:15 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
Perhaps I'm just being naive here, regarding all of these packaging questions.
Can't you just place a huge "fragile - ?handle with care" sticker on
the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the people
along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead of
just throwing it in the back of the truck.
Adam
5:42 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
--- On Sat, 10/29/11, Adam - DG/UX <dgunix at gmail.com> wrote:
Can't you just place a huge "fragile -
?handle with care"
sticker on
the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it?
Parcel carriers will ignore such markings, including "This side
up". You may likely find this in their tariffs. You can pay more
for expedited handling, but I've never heard of an option to pay
more for better handling. You can insure the item, but they'll
decline to pay a claim if they deem it improperly packed, which
is to say, packed for less than gorilla-style handling.
Freight shipments are more flexible in this regard, in that there
are specialty carriers and premium classes of service specifically
of high-value items like electronics, medical equipment, or artwork.
You also have control of orientation when the item is strapped to
a pallet, and it is less likely to be dropped.
--Bill
That way all
the people
along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it,
instead of
just throwing it in the back of the truck.
Adam
3:10 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
Perhaps I'm just being naive here, regarding all of these packaging quest=
ions.
Can't you just place a huge "fragile - =A0handle with care" sticker on
Over here (at least), the phrase 'Fragile Scientfic Instrument' seems to
be postage-company-speak for 'This parcel is to be used for playing
(American) football' :-(
the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way
all the people
along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead
just throwing it in the back of the truck.
You _are_ kidding, right?
-tony
4:47 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
the box, and
even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the people
along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead
just throwing it in the back of the truck.
You _are_ kidding, right? 
9:34 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
Is it that far fetched that there would be service
levels?
When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better
support, from more experienced techs?
Given the volumes and time frames involved, there's really no
way that some packages can be handled differently from others
if they're going through the same facility. The only exception to
that are shipments that are too large or heavy to travel on the
conveyor belts. Having said that, there are different services
available that transport the packages through an entirely different
path to get to the destination. FedEx has some pretty extreme
examples. A few years ago a couple of pandas were imported
from China and FedEx flew them. No only did they have
a plane
dedicated to them, but it was specially painted for the event.
I never witnessed this myself, but some of the guys I worked
with told me about a time they were in one of the facilities and
heard an animal growling in one of the crates. FedEx also has
the Custom Critical operating company that is the result of a
purchase of Roberts Express. This is the part of the company
you go to if you want something taken directly from your door
to the destination and need it handled with particular care.
BLS
9:51 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Sat, 29 Oct 2011, blstuart at bellsouth.net wrote:
Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard a rooster crowing
Is it that far
fetched that there would be service levels?
When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better
support, from more experienced techs?
Given the volumes and time frames involved, there's really no
way that some packages can be handled differently from others
if they're going through the same facility. The only exception to
that are shipments that are too large or heavy to travel on the
conveyor belts. Having said that, there are different services
available that transport the packages through an entirely different
path to get to the destination. FedEx has some pretty extreme
examples. A few years ago a couple of pandas were imported
from China and FedEx flew them. No only did they have a plane
dedicated to them, but it was specially painted for the event.
I never witnessed this myself, but some of the guys I worked
with told me about a time they were in one of the facilities and
heard an animal growling in one of the crates. FedEx also has
the Custom Critical operating company that is the result of a
purchase of Roberts Express. This is the part of the company
you go to if you want something taken directly from your door
to the destination and need it handled with particular care. from the back of the local post office. The clerks
confirmed to me that,
yes, someone is shipping a live rooster.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
10:21 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard
a rooster crowing
from the back of the local post office. ?The clerks confirmed to me that,
yes, someone is shipping a live rooster.
Every so often someone ships a box of chicks out of the Carmel, NY
post office. It is not totally uncommon in more rural areas.
--
Will
10:33 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On 29 Oct 2011 at 18:51, David Griffith wrote:
Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard
a rooster
crowing from the back of the local post office. The clerks confirmed
to me that, yes, someone is shipping a live rooster.
Yup. The USPS will accept bees, chicks, scorpions, live adult
poultry, alligators, worms, fish, leeches, snails, etc.:
http://pe.usps.com/text/pub52/pub52c5_007.htm
There are some roadless areas of the country for whom the USPS mail
boat is pretty much the only outside contact. Mail boats are run by
contract with the USPS:
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Remote-mail-run-lives-up-to-
post-office-credo-1259822.php
I believe that there's also a boat that plies the Detroit River and
services other vessels and even has its own ZIP code.
--Chuck
10:48 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Oct 29, 2011, at 10:33 PM, "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
I believe that there's also a boat that plies the
Detroit River and
services other vessels and even has its own ZIP code.
Sounds like the perfect description for my ex.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
30 Oct
30 Oct
1:13 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
At 08:51 PM 10/29/2011, David Griffith wrote:
Regarding shipping animals -- A few months ago I heard
a rooster crowing from the back of the local post office. The clerks confirmed to me
that, yes, someone is shipping a live rooster.
I've had dozens upon dozens of baby chicks shipped USPS. It's been the
way they're shipped for a century.
- John
29 Oct
29 Oct
11:21 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
Adam - DG/UX wrote:
Is it that far fetched that there would be service
levels?
When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I not get better
support, from more experienced techs?
I'm not talking about their response time, I'm talking about the
quality of the service.
You said "some extra $$". Apparently you meant "some extra
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$".
And, back to shipping, FedEx has a few solutions
including "Extra-care
handling":
<http://www.fedex.com/us/customersupport/shipping/index.html>
and also check out White Gloves:
http://www.fedex.com/us/services/customcritical/whiteglove/
Did you notice that they don't have pricing for these services available
online? Why do you suppose that is?
Again, it's not all black and white, obviously the
regular fee isn't
about breaking your stuff but for the "Extra-care" fee they'll handle
it properly..
And if it gets broken, and they determine that it wasn't packed
properly, you're still SOL. In other words, if you don't bolt down the
typing unit of a Model 33 Teletype, or if you put a big heavy thing in a
box with only foam peanuts for "protection", they aren't going to accept
liability for breaking it. This isn't a substitute for packing it
correctly.
There are levels of service in just about anything.
Certainly. For shipping, the level of service for "I can't be bothered
to package it correctly" is "pay a shipping agent that will package it
correctly for me". However, for things where it isn't obvious how to
package it correctly, like a Model 33 Teletype, or an RP06 disk drive,
even that isn't going to be sufficient.
Eric
30 Oct
30 Oct
1:47 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
Certainly. ?For shipping, the level of service for
"I can't be bothered to
package it correctly" is "pay a shipping agent that will package it
correctly for me".
Obviously I was misunderstood somehow, or taken too literally.
when I said "Can't you just place a huge "fragile - handle with care"
sticker on the box, and even pay some extra $$ for it?"
I meant on top of proper packing, as these posts implied so vividly
(subject is still "Proper Packing").
Of course I didn't mean "wrap your TeleType in an old newspaper, stick
a 'fragile' sticker and off you go"
:)
Adam
2:26 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
the box,
and even pay some extra $$ for it? That way all the people
along its shipping path will just pay more attention to it, instead
just throwing it in the back of the truck.
You _are_ kidding, right? When I pay for support at an enterprise level, do I
not get better
support, from more experienced techs?
Well, I've never paied for support on anything, but however experienced
the techs are, there will surely be soemthing they don't know. So however
mcuh you pay, there wil lbe problems they can't solve quickly. Same with
shipping old hardware. You may pay for a better service, but the parcel
could still slip from soembody's hands.
-tony
31 Oct
31 Oct
3:30 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
In article <4EA939DF.28176.733AF6 at cclist.sydex.com>,
"Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com> writes:
I guess, YMMV. One problem with styro peanuts is that
they will
allow heavy objects to shift in the package.
Only if they aren't packed tight and voids are allowed to form. I'm
telling you, Ive received VERY heavy Indigo2s packed in peanuts sent
from across the country and they did not shift.
I've received items packed in styro peanuts only
and they've been
heavily damaged because the object was allowed to move in the box.
Again.
THIS IS NOT THE FAULT OF THE PEANUTS.
THIS IS THE FAUL OF IMPROPER PACKING.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
27 Oct
27 Oct
7:33 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
I have shipped both UPS, Fed-Ex, and many others over the years. For a
number of reasons I prefer Fed-Ex.
One DEC terminal in particular I ship in a new 24x24x20 box. It weighs
between 35-40 pounds and I've shipped dozens over the years. I had a
request to ship 3 Fed-Ex ground and thought nothing of it. A week
later, I had to ship another and the person at the counter, who I've
known for years, asked if one of the last batch was damaged. I said
yes, and he replied it was probably because it was shipped ground. I
thought about it, and I had never shipped one ground before.
I drop off my packages at Fed-Ex and UPS at the terminal.
Paul
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 12:33 PM, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110260837270.11983 at duo>,
? ?Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> writes:
will arrive in one piece. ?It doesn't look
like anyone in the area is
setup for injected foam packing anymore, and I just don't trust the usual
foam + peanuts anymore - too many broken units over the past few years. ?I
think UPS and FedEx hired the chimps from the old luggage commercials to
throw packages around during loading.
I keep seeing this assertion made, that somehow its all the fault of the
rough handling that shipping companies give to the packages and not the
fault of the way the unit was packed.
I've had many, many heavy terminals and workstations shipped through these
packaging companies to my house. ?In each and every single case, the ones
that were damaged during shipping were the ones that were poorly packed.
NEVER has an item that had proper packing, even when the box clearly
showed signs of rough treatment, been damaged.
My data says its all in how you pack it, NOT whether or not UPS/FedEx
hires "chimps" to do the transfer of package from distribution center
to truck to delivery location.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
?<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
? ? ?Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
28 Oct
28 Oct
7:04 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
On Thu, 27 Oct 2011, Paul Anderson wrote:
I have shipped both UPS, Fed-Ex, and many others over
the years. For a
number of reasons I prefer Fed-Ex.
One DEC terminal in particular I ship in a new 24x24x20 box. It weighs
between 35-40 pounds and I've shipped dozens over the years. I had a
request to ship 3 Fed-Ex ground and thought nothing of it. A week
later, I had to ship another and the person at the counter, who I've
known for years, asked if one of the last batch was damaged. I said
yes, and he replied it was probably because it was shipped ground. I
thought about it, and I had never shipped one ground before.
FedEx contracts out their ground service, AFAIK. My experience with them
as a recipient has been horrible. They left a badly damaged box
unprotected on my steps during a driving rain storm last year. The Amiga
600 survived, the Corvus hard drive was nicely smashed and soaked. I
simply could not believe anyone would be that sloppy.
Steve
--
9:21 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing (was: Need advice)
At 06:04 AM 10/28/2011, Steven Hirsch wrote:
FedEx contracts out their ground service, AFAIK. My
experience with them as a recipient has been horrible. They left a badly damaged box
unprotected on my steps during a driving rain storm last year. The Amiga 600 survived,
the Corvus hard drive was nicely smashed and soaked. I simply could not believe anyone
would be that sloppy.
UPS has some cheap shipping methods that contract to USPS, too.
A few weeks ago I lost a package. I watched the UPS tracking number
and was puzzled to see it was set for Saturday delivery to my office.
Normally UPS doesn't do that. On Monday the UPS tracking now includes
a USPS tracking number that it said it was delivered on Saturday,
but there's no sign of it.
Saturday was a street festival in my downtown outside my office,
with hundreds of people milling about. My security camera confirms
the USPS postal carrier dropping the package outside my office
building door, two feet from the sidewalk. No one touched it
until midnight, when it was swiped by a woman walking her dog.
The postmaster said he's told the carriers not to leave packages
like this, but said it was "within the carrier's discretion."
He said he couldn't understand why the carrier did it. We talked to
the carrier, he said oh-shucks-I'm-dumb-don't-know-why, I-won't-do-it-again.
No one would take responsibility.
Fortunately, Thinkgeek simply shipped a replacement for the $50 order.
Three weeks afterwards, I visit a client's office down the block,
with the same postal delivery man, there's a USPS-delivered box
on the step outside their locked downtown office door.
More apropos the topic, within the last year I've been frustrated
by some computer rescue methods. It's nice that someone wants to send me
an old and rare computer, and I can *try* to explain proper packing
and be willing to pay for it, but it's so sad to open the box and
see chunks of old computer floating around in the packing peanuts.
This year's damaged goods include a Terak RGB monitor and a couple
mono Teraks.
On the other hand, in another rescue, the person simply dropped
everything off at the UPS packing store, handed them $350, and
those computers were wonderfully plastic-wrapped, double-boxed,
foam blocked, and packed with peanuts. Couldn't have done
better myself, and everything was delivered so cleanly the
nice new big boxes were easily reused.
- John
For those outside the US, "UPS" is a private shipping company,
"USPS" is the U.S. Postal Service.
6:50 p.m.
New subject: Proper packing
Steven Hirsch wrote:
FedEx contracts out their ground service, AFAIK.
Nope, they do it themselves. The ground service was created when they
acquired RPS.
I haven't found them to be particularly less reliable than their
competitors. All of them will damage things that aren't packed
sufficiently well. This means that it has to be packed with the
expectation that it will be dropped from five feet onto concrete,
repeatedly, left in the rain, had a forklift fork poked into it, etc.
Usually the only way to get things packaged sufficiently well is to do
it yourself, based on your past experience with things getting broken.
Eric
31 Oct
31 Oct
11:19 a.m.
New subject: Proper packing
Paul Anderson wrote:
One DEC terminal in particular I ship in a new
24x24x20 box. It weighs
between 35-40 pounds and I've shipped dozens over the years. I had a
request to ship 3 Fed-Ex ground and thought nothing of it. A week
later, I had to ship another and the person at the counter, who I've
known for years, asked if one of the last batch was damaged. I said
yes, and he replied it was probably because it was shipped ground. I
thought about it, and I had never shipped one ground before.
I drop off my packages at Fed-Ex and UPS at the terminal.
This is one of the reasons I love Forward Air for shipping large
fragile items. Pallets and vinyl strapping are dirt cheap and
dock-to-dock shipping bypasses almost all of the carrier's chances to
break something.
Doc Shipley
26 Oct
26 Oct
1:58 p.m.
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Steven Hirsch <snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
essentially zero interest in my posting from last week
on the subject. I'm
trying to figure out why. ?Is it:
- My geographical location (Burlington, VT)?
Yes... I'm in Ohio. I get to New England once a year or less.
- No interest in these specific items?
Partially. If you were across town, the stuff you had was interesting
enough for a short drive, but you had nothing that was so stunning to
inspire a 1300-mile round-trip ($125 for gas, then there's food and/or
lodging on top of that).
I did do a road-trip to Ottowa once, for a PDP-8/S. Something of that
calibre *does* inspire road trip.
The more odd the gear, the longer of a trip becomes thinkable.
If I go to the trouble and expense of buying proper
boxes and InstaPak
cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing - never
mind freight costs.
I usually use a rough estimate of $1-$2/lb for domestic freight. I
don't know that I would want to pay something for an Ultra-60 _and_
probably double the cost for the freight, but in my part of the
country, Sun equipment is not difficult to find either in town or
within a couple of hours for free. Those in parts where the equipment
is rare may have a different tipping point, but for the most part,
those same people are likely to be even further away.
As Will said, can you hang on until a Hamfest? Those often attract
both casual buyers and perhaps targeted buyers if you get the word out
far enough in advance that it could affect attendance. There are also
mailing lists like suns-at-home and the DEC-oriented groups on
Usenet/Google Groups that are a highly focused audience. Someone
there might be willing to pay $100 S&H for something they want and
don't already have.
-ethan
4:44 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Oct 2011, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Free is good. But, in my experience such giveaways are often stripped
and/or in poor condition.
On Wed, Oct 26, 2011 at 8:46 AM, Steven Hirsch
<snhirsch at gmail.com> wrote:
I did do a road-trip to Ottowa once, for a PDP-8/S.
Something of that
calibre *does* inspire road trip.
The more odd the gear, the longer of a trip becomes thinkable.
I can understand that.
If I go to the
trouble and expense of buying proper boxes and InstaPak
cushioning, it's going to average about $35-40 per unit for packing - never
mind freight costs.
I usually use a rough estimate of $1-$2/lb for domestic freight. I
don't know that I would want to pay something for an Ultra-60 _and_
probably double the cost for the freight, but in my part of the
country, Sun equipment is not difficult to find either in town or
within a couple of hours for free. Those in parts where the equipment
is rare may have a different tipping point, but for the most part,
those same people are likely to be even further away. As Will said, can you hang on until a Hamfest? Those
often attract
both casual buyers and perhaps targeted buyers if you get the word out
far enough in advance that it could affect attendance. There are also
mailing lists like suns-at-home and the DEC-oriented groups on
Usenet/Google Groups that are a highly focused audience. Someone
there might be willing to pay $100 S&H for something they want and
don't already have.
In this area? I couldn't give them away at a hamfest.
I have been getting a trickle of interest from folks who live within
driving distance, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Would love to get
them out of here by the time snow comes.
Steve
--
4:26 p.m.
I doubt there are many areas, even in Vermont, where there isn't a strip mall w/a
Staples, TJ Maxx, Pier 1 Imports, Marshalls, etc. You can go in the dumpster behind those
stores (yeah I know many have those closed compactors, but not all) in the dead of night
and scrounge loads of styrofoam flats. That makes it worthwhile by itself. Cartons can be
found, I just picked up a big one (too big in fact) from Loews, got to ship a lathe. Many
Loews get these humongous sheets of corrugated cardboard (1 per day) w/the truck
shipments, and if nothing else you can utilize that to make your own carton (I've done
it). Will need lots of packing tape (can't get decent packing tape anywhere else but
Walmart these days), or big staple things. Or twine.
You haven't give anyone any idea of what you want for the stuff. None of it is rare
by any stretch. I could go for an AIX box eventually, but got tons on my plate at the
moment. Why would I drive to Vermont to get one? They're on eBay all day long. It is
impractical to ship some things, like the 95 lb. monster I put on eBay, where I specified
p/u only (and why would I pay eBay's scandalous commission to agree to ship something
that's just going to take money out of my pocket). But there are instances where
you'll have to ship. Or be prepared to toss it. Nobody wants to get their fingers
dirty anymore, or get their pits a little swetty.
8:22 p.m.
It's a shame that you need to ditch your entire collection (surely
your wife would at least let you keep a favorite machine or two) and
I'd love to take some of these off your hands. Sadly, I'm a broke
student with no drivers license, so a 3 hour trip (each way) to pick
up equipment that I can't afford is out of the question. Still, I
might suggest that you post to the "Nekochan" (forums.nekochan.net)
message board. Especially if you're willing to reconsider shipping,
that would be the place to get in touch with workstation collectors.
Mike
4721
days inactive
4727
days old
124 comments
40 participants
participants (40)
-
aliensrcooluk＠yahoo.co.uk -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
barythrin＠yahoo.com -
blstuart＠bellsouth.net -
brain＠jbrain.com -
cclist＠sydex.com -
chris＠mainecoon.com -
chrism3667＠yahoo.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
dgriffi＠cs.csubak.edu -
dgunix＠gmail.com -
doc＠vaxen.net -
doug＠doughq.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
gyorpb＠gmail.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
john＠yoyodyne-propulsion.net -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
madcrow.maxwell＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
nathan＠nathanpralle.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
rodsmallwood＠btconnect.com -
rogpugh＠mac.com -
snhirsch＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
tdk.knight＠gmail.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au -
useddec＠gmail.com -
vintagecoder＠aol.com -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com -
wmaddox＠pacbell.net