17 Nov
1997
17 Nov
'97
12:19 p.m.
Any other thoughts on case designs? I still think the
Lisa was beautiful,
and I'll have to check out the 3b1.
I have to agree about the Lisa - there is just something about her lines
which really appeals to me. :) The Atari 400 is also a faviourite, as it
has the weird science-fiction look. But the best (apart from the Lisa)
would have to be the Mac 128 and Apple IIc - both are very much Steve Jobs'
concept of what a computer should be, and although I don't agree with him
they nevertheless have a fine design concept.
If only I have a NextCube - that is one of the two computers I most want in
the world (the other being a Sinclair ZX81).
Adam.
17 Nov
17 Nov
12:38 p.m.
I have to agree about the Lisa - there is just
something about her lines
which really appeals to me. :) The Atari 400 is also a faviourite, as it
has the weird science-fiction look. But the best (apart from the Lisa)
would have to be the Mac 128 and Apple IIc - both are very much Steve Jobs'
concept of what a computer should be, and although I don't agree with him
they nevertheless have a fine design concept.
I like the Lisa's INTERNAL design more than it's external appearance. It
has to be one of the easiest computers to take appart! Two thumb-screws
to pop open the back panel and then you pull out the entire
backplane-cage assembly. Nice-n-easy.
I'd also have to nominate almost every IBM PS/2 for having sweet case
design. Especially the model 35SX (a desktop that can be taken appart with
the monitor still sitting on top of the case) and the model 80 (they're
just nifty inside). But they also get nominated for the Proprietary
Standards from Hell award, with the grand prize going to whoever thought
up the Microchannel Hard Drive. Mmm... lets hook a hard drive directly
into the BUS! Maybe other non-PC machines have done this, but it just
seems like a really wonky thing to do with a quasi-PC machine.
Anyway... my main reason for posting was to say that I do believe that
the case and externals for the Apple //c was designed by an engineer that
designed bodies for Porsche. Hence, it gets the award for sleekest case.
The Apple //c also gets Starling's Liquid Fault Tolerance Award...
there's no telling how many times I (as a kid) spilled water or soda down
the keyboard, only to have it safely run out those little vents at the
bottom of the case, no damage done.
If only I have a NextCube - that is one of the two
computers I most want in
the world (the other being a Sinclair ZX81).
www.deepspacetech.com frequently has good deals on NeXT hardware. You
might look there. I've never bought anything from them, but I've never
heard anything bad about them. But, of course, nothing beats buying the
machine you want at an auction for $10.00. :)
chris starling
starling(a)umr.edu
1:17 p.m.
I like the Lisa's INTERNAL design more than
it's external appearance.
Judging from the one I have seen, I would have to agree. Someone at Apple
had there head screwed on right in the case department.
I'd also have to nominate almost every IBM PS/2
for having sweet case
design.
IBM has always been big on the ergonomics of their machines, especially
for servicing. Many IBM machines were leased, so when the things broke,
IBM had to fix them. Any time that the onsite engineer could shave off was
a savings for IBM.
I have what must be the most butt ugly terminal ever made, an old IBM
thing from the last of the 360 days. It looks like a mishapen lump of
white metal, with a keyboard that can be best described as "thick" The CRT
is a strange aspect ratio, something like 1:2. It, however, must be
the nicest thing in the world to fix (it seems to work, so I have not had
the need to fix it). The case pops off with little difficulty, then the
different chassis (the thing has quite a few boards in it, full of SLTs)
fold out, yet nothing needs to be disconnected.
Another example of fine service thinking are the very old Sun SPARC
machines, and the newer members of the Sun-3 line (3/180). The
cases, once again, pop off with a little persuation, and the VME cards
have nice big ejectors, so they are quite easy to get into and out of. The
drive trays allow one to install the drives and not have to worry much
about connecting cables while aligning the tray. Additionally, the cases,
as with most _newer_ Sun stuff, looks really sharp.
Actually (and I know I am going to get a rotten tomato thrown at me for
this one), most modern computers (except the PeeCee) are much nicer to
work on than those from 10 or 20 years ago. The attention to details seems
to be on the rise, yeilding designs that I really have to scrutinize to
find something dumb about them (I have yet to find something dumb about
the larger Ciscos).
> If only I have a NextCube
As far as style is concerned , the NeXTcube wins in the desktop arena, and
the quite similar looking Connection Machine (another black cube,
several feet on each edge, with one face covered with _thousands_ of
red LEDs) wins in the heavyweight arena.
Cray Research, past and present, also deserves an award for years of very
cool looking machines. Hopefully SGI will not kill that off.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
7:04 p.m.
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote:
I have what must be the most butt ugly terminal ever
made, an old IBM
thing from the last of the 360 days. It looks like a mishapen lump of
white metal, with a keyboard that can be best described as "thick" The CRT
is a strange aspect ratio, something like 1:2. It, however, must be
the nicest thing in the world to fix (it seems to work, so I have not had
Nicest thing to work on that I ever saw was a Barco monitor. Access was
from 3 points - undo 2 screws and lift off the
top/sides, undo 3
quarter-turn clips and remove the back panel, and unlock a drawer
under
the CRT at the front and slide it out.
The drawer contains the 2 timebase generators and the convergence panel.
All the controls you need to tweak while watching the screen are at the
front. And as the boards are side-by-side, it's trivial to connect a
'scope probe to them.
The video amplifiers and sync cards are in a cardcage across the back. The
PSU cardcage (and mains transformer) mounts on top of them on the right
hand side. On the left hand side are the horizontal output module and the
EHT supply.
Now, cards in cardcages are in general difficult to work on. But Barco
provide an extender board in the video cardcage (in a spare slot) so you
can work on them
A Barco TV was nearly as good. Pop the back (4 screws), and there was a
motherboard mounted vertically around the CRT neck. Pull out any of the
plug-in cards, hinge the motherboard down, and plug it into pins on the
solder side of the motherboard. You can now trivially test it.
Actually (and I know I am going to get a rotten tomato
thrown at me for
this one), most modern computers (except the PeeCee) are much nicer to
work on than those from 10 or 20 years ago. The attention to details seems
I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to
be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic
analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal
either.
-tony
18 Nov
18 Nov
12:32 a.m.
On Mon, 17 Nov 1997, William Donzelli wrote:
> I have what must be the most butt ugly terminal ever made, an old IBM
> thing from the last of the 360 days. It looks like a mishapen lump of
> white metal, with a keyboard that can be best described as "thick" The
CRT
> is a strange aspect ratio, something like 1:2. It, however, must be
> the nicest thing in the world to fix (it seems to work, so I have not had
Real
oddball terminal indeed better save it and use it in meantime.
Nicest thing to work on that I ever saw was a Barco
monitor. Access was
from 3 points - undo 2 screws and lift off the top/sides, undo 3
quarter-turn clips and remove the back panel, and unlock a drawer under
the CRT at the front and slide it out.
The drawer contains the 2 timebase generators and the convergence panel.
All the controls you need to tweak while watching the screen are at the
front. And as the boards are side-by-side, it's trivial to connect a
'scope probe to them.
The video amplifiers and sync cards are in a cardcage across the back. The
PSU cardcage (and mains transformer) mounts on top of them on the right
hand side. On the left hand side are the horizontal output module and the
EHT supply.
Now, cards in cardcages are in general difficult to work on. But Barco
provide an extender board in the video cardcage (in a spare slot) so you
can work on them
A Barco TV was nearly as good. Pop the back (4 screws), and there was a
motherboard mounted vertically around the CRT neck. Pull out any of the
plug-in cards, hinge the motherboard down, and plug it into pins on the
solder side of the motherboard. You can now trivially test it.
Is that Barco
company gone belly up or still existing making new
monitors and TV's? And also that shows good design! :)
Actually (and I know I am going to get a rotten
tomato thrown at me for
this one), most modern computers (except the PeeCee) are much nicer to
work on than those from 10 or 20 years ago. The attention to details seems
I've never understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to
be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic
analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal
either. -tony
5:45 a.m.
On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca wrote:
Oh, Tony, we have to deal 5 or 12 computers a day when
things get
busy and if the quality is stinker, takes longer to fix so we really
appreciate the least number of screws required or useful devices that
allows you to remove one or two drive cages by letting go a catch to
People have already mentioned the Lisa which indeed has a beautiful
design. The Apple II design was also very elegant...just pop the hood and
you're in.
work on it seperate from case. The low quality cases
is so sharp
that you can shave with it and also very wobbly without the cover. (I
I've bled on several occasions because of the el-cheapo "made in china" PC
cases.
could crush the frame with hands. and I'm not that
strong-armed like
the weight lifter!) Also some have so bad metal and rough machined
screws chew 'em up in short order. Have anyone noticed many fine
pitch screws getting less defined and more of rough appearance.
Once, I found one blank stem with fully formed head complete with
slot! The older computer typically used well made parts so we
appreciate them also.
The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished
much from the original design. However, there has a been a trend towards
a better designed PC case, one that is sturdier, easier to take apart/put
together (some not requiring screws for this) and fits together tightly.
They still have a way to go though before they acheive the ease of access
that the Apple II afforded you. When will they learn not to fix what's
not broken?
Sam Alternate e-mail: dastar(a)siconic.com
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Computer Historian, Programmer, Musician, Philosopher, Athlete, Writer, Jackass
Coming Soon...Vintage Computer Festival 2.0
See http://www.siconic.com/vcf for details!
1:21 p.m.
The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality
of cases diminished
much from the original design.
I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really
are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck.
Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not
turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
9:01 a.m.
The IBM PC
used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished
much from the original design.
I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really
are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck.
Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not
turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
19 Nov
19 Nov
11:04 a.m.
> Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that
are stamped, and not
> turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used.
Uh huh... not true.
Ummm...yes true. It is really obvious when the dies get worn and a
flashing start to show up, like on a cheap plastic model.
Actual production of screws comes in gress what? Roll
of wire!
Snipped to short lengths by shear action then fed to 2 or 3 machines
then in the end is screws.
Well, yes, I assumed that everyone knew that. Screws have basically always
been made like this.
These "ultra-cheap" screws start out the same, with a head formed exactly
the same way, but then the blank is fed into a two part die that cuts the
thread by "smashing".
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
8:11 a.m.
> Also, the
really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not
> turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used.
Uh huh... not true.
Ummm...yes true. It is really obvious when the dies get worn and a
flashing start to show up, like on a cheap plastic model.
Actual production of screws comes in gress what?
Roll of wire!
Snipped to short lengths by shear action then fed to 2 or 3 machines
then in the end is screws.
Well, yes, I assumed that everyone knew that. Screws have basically always
been made like this. These "ultra-cheap" screws start out the
same, with a head formed exactly
the same way, but then the blank is fed into a two part die that cuts the
thread by "smashing".
Eeww.. Lucky me, I did not find 'em. I
would spot "seam" in a
instant. And toss box of it into grabage. When you talk of cutting
thread it's would be CUTTING. Better to say forming?
They have 2 ways depending on needs and by design: to form threads:
roll blanks between 2 molds, one fixed, one moving in linear motion
under pressure (low quanitity) or constant feed through a circular
mold about 1/4 of the way around with outer mold. (High quanitity)
Rather like children clay being rolled on table and your hands to
makes "sausages" and put impressions in it from both your
fingerprints and the defects in the table.
Troll
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
7:45 p.m.
On 18 Nov 97 at 22:21, William Donzelli wrote:
I've got an IBM 8580-111(full tower case). I love the solidity of
the thing. Loosen 3 large screws with a . 25 coin and the side pops
off. Recessed fold-up handle if your strong enough to carry it
one-handed. I get incensed when newest-tech people suggest it could
be used as a conversation-piece coffee table. But it certainly is
strong enough. I also admire the MCA architecture which would have
been the norm if IBM hadn't been so greedy.
My other candidate for "way-cool" design is the Atari 130xe. Like a
miniture ST whose modernistic design was undoubtably copied from
it. The DEC Rainbow is also remarkable for it's example of how to
give easy access to a board in confined space.
ciao larry
lwalkerN0spaM(a)interlog.com
The IBM PC
used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished
much from the original design.
I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really
are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck.
Also, the really cheap PeeCees use screws that are stamped, and not
turned. This is one of the reasons that fine threads are still used.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
21 Nov
21 Nov
8:24 p.m.
On 18 Nov 97 at 22:21, William Donzelli wrote:
> > The IBM PC used finely machined screws. The quality of cases diminished
> > much from the original design.
>
> I think they reached their pinnacle with the PS/2s. Those machines really
> are well designed. Later IBMs, like the Valuepoints, well, suck.
Usually NOT.
Some do have suck factor some are so good.
snip!
William
Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
I've got an IBM 8580-111(full tower case). I love the solidity of
the thing. Loosen 3 large screws with a . 25 coin and the side pops
off. Recessed fold-up handle if your strong enough to carry it
one-handed. I get incensed when newest-tech people suggest it could
be used as a conversation-piece coffee table. But it certainly is
strong enough. I also admire the MCA architecture which would have
been the norm if IBM hadn't been so greedy. ciao larry
lwalkerN0spaM(a)interlog.com
Troll
22 Nov
22 Nov
1:46 a.m.
MCA was still clocked 8mhz. :( What we need is
"MCA II that roars
at 66mhz with seamless PnP" if IBM is not so dumb. :)
The MCA on the PS/2 is "dumb" MCA. Shortly after the PS/2 was released,
the RS/6000 came about and MCA was enhanced, as well as a few features
became "public" about the original MCA. Included in the enhancements were
data streaming, parity, and a much improved exception handling system.
I do not know about the more modern MCA machines - perhaps the newer
RS/6000s have a newer MCA. I would certainly hope so.
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
18 Nov
18 Nov
10:56 p.m.
On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 jpero(a)cgo.wave.ca wrote:
[...]
They're still going. Their modern stuff is not _as good_, but it's still
very well built. Oh, and the electronic design is up to the same high
standards.
I don't know if they ever built NTSC televisions (they're based in
Belgium), but I _know_ their RGB monitors can work at USA scan rates
(well, the TV-rate ones, anyway - they make a lot of different models,
including IIRC VGA, etc), and I would think their professional video
monitors certainly come in NTSC versions.
Be warned that they're not cheap. And their spares (while available) are
also very expensive.
I was not claiming that all modern cases were bad or anything like that.
It's just that these quick-release clips are often nothing of the sort
(_some_ are good), and you spend longer fiddling with those than it would
have taken to undo a couple of screws.
A Barco TV was
nearly as good. Pop the back (4 screws), and there was a
motherboard mounted vertically around the CRT neck. Pull out any of the
plug-in cards, hinge the motherboard down, and plug it into pins on the
solder side of the motherboard. You can now trivially test it.
Is that Barco
company gone belly up or still existing making new
monitors and TV's? And also that shows good design! :) I've never
understood this love of screwdriver-less cases. If I'm going to
be fixing a computer I'm going to have a soldering station, scope, logic
analyser, cutters, etc with me. So having a screwdriver set is no big deal
either.
Oh, Tony, we have to deal 5 or 12 computers a day when things get work on it seperate from case. The low quality cases
is so sharp
that you can shave with it and also very wobbly without the cover. (I
could crush the frame with hands. and I'm not that strong-armed like
the weight lifter!) Also some have so bad metal and rough machined
Oh, agreed. I've seen some really bad build quality in no-name PCs - and I
don't like it. I also like well-engineered cases - ones that I could stand
on if necessary, ones that don't remove the skin from my hands when I
reach in to flip a DIP switch or pull a card, etc.
-tony
21 Nov
21 Nov
4:59 p.m.
William Donzelli wrote:
IBM has always been big on the ergonomics of their
machines, especially
for servicing. Many IBM machines were leased, so when the things broke,
IBM had to fix them. Any time that the onsite engineer could shave off was
a savings for IBM.
Ergonomics ain't got nothin' to do with serviceability. Compare a VW
van with a Ford Aerostar. The Aerostar is _much_ more ergonomic. But
the VW is a lot easier to work on.
--
Ward Griffiths
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails
of the last priest." [Denis Diderot, "Dithyrambe sur la fete de rois"]
22 Nov
22 Nov
1:29 a.m.
Ergonomics ain't got nothin' to do with
serviceability. Compare a VW
van with a Ford Aerostar. The Aerostar is _much_ more ergonomic. But
the VW is a lot easier to work on.
"Ergonomics" does not apply to only the people that use the machines on a
regular basis, but to anyone that uses the machines for anything,
including service. IN the Aerostar example, Ford did all of their
ergonomic goodies in the driver and passenger seats, but none under the
hood.
There is a whole subfield of industrial engineering that deals with the
ergonomics of servicing equipment - how big to make access holes, ejectors
for circuit boards, connector design, etc..
William Donzelli
william(a)ans.net
9897
days inactive
9902
days old
15 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
adam＠merlin.net.au -
ard＠odin.phy.bris.ac.uk -
dastar＠wco.com -
gram＠cnct.com -
jpero＠cgo.wave.ca -
lwalker＠mail.interlog.com -
starling＠umr.edu -
william＠ans.net