21 Jun
2014
21 Jun
'14
11:30 a.m.
I'm curious about what sort of software might have been used during the 1980s on
VAX-11/7xx series machines to support design and/or production of electronic hardware.
If there are any dusty old archived copies of such software that I might be able to
experiment with on my VAX-11/730 (after I get it running, that is), that would be pretty
exciting.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
21 Jun
21 Jun
6:50 p.m.
I used SILOS II on a VAX-11/780 and MicroVAX 3600 in school.
--
Will
On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 2:30 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'm curious about what sort of software might have
been used during the 1980s on VAX-11/7xx series machines to support design and/or
production of electronic hardware.
If there are any dusty old archived copies of such software that I might be able to
experiment with on my VAX-11/730 (after I get it running, that is), that would be pretty
exciting.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
10:26 p.m.
On Jun 21, 2014, at 18:50 , William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote:
I used SILOS II on a VAX-11/780 and MicroVAX 3600 in
school.
That's a Verilog simulator, isn't it?
On Jun 21, 2014, at 19:31 , Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote:
Not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but SPICE
(Simulation
Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis) springs to mind.
Not exactly what I meant, but very much on-topic. I should see if I can get SPICE 2G.6
running on my VAX.
I wonder what sort of software DEC used in their hardware design and production back in
the early to mid 1980s?
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
10:53 p.m.
On 06/21/2014 10:26 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I wonder what sort of software DEC used in their
hardware design and production back in the early to mid 1980s?
Well, in the 1980s, the hot thing was dedicated hardware for design
simulation. ZyCAD comes to mind as one such outfit...
--Chuck
22 Jun
22 Jun
6:33 a.m.
That's a Verilog simulator, isn't it?
Yes.
VAX machines were sometimes rebadged or hidden inside other vendors
CAD systems. I still have a VAX-11/751 in an Applicon cabinet that I
am trying to get rid of.
Intergraph also used VAX machines as servers, with weird add-ons for
dealing with graphical entities.
--
Will
--
Will
8:39 a.m.
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 8:33 AM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:
Intergraph also used VAX machines as servers, with weird add-ons for
dealing with graphical entities.
Something like this?
http://i.imgur.com/ldZHzjX.jpg
That was the 11/780 with Intergraph cabinets from Auburn University at
least 30 years ago, from what I've been told.
Kyle
8:52 a.m.
Cool pic, thanks for posting that. It's so hard to find any information
(pictures, documentation) about old Intergraph equipment. It seems as if
the company over the years had worked very hard to ensure they were more or
less redacted from history. The only Intergraph you can see, is that which
exists today :(
(OT: I used to have a couple of their Series 2400 machines, with Clipper
chips in them; strange boxes! Never had all the resources to make one run.
I do wish I still had at least that oddball Clipper CPU around as an
artifact)
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 8:33 AM, William Donzelli
<wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:
Intergraph also used VAX machines as servers, with weird add-ons for
dealing with graphical entities.
Something like this?
http://i.imgur.com/ldZHzjX.jpg
That was the 11/780 with Intergraph cabinets from Auburn University at
least 30 years ago, from what I've been told.
Kyle
9:48 a.m.
In article <CAA43vkXQ9dy6y6Y8vyLXU7KB17PV2S5VLzVuC8XWQF7GX-VnwQ at mail.gmail.com>,
Sean Caron <scaron at umich.edu> writes:
Cool pic, thanks for posting that. It's so hard to
find any information
(pictures, documentation) about old Intergraph equipment. It seems as if
the company over the years had worked very hard to ensure they were more or
less redacted from history. The only Intergraph you can see, is that which
exists today :(
I don't think there's any specific desire on their part to be excised
from history, it's just another example of one of
those companies
whose heyday was in the pre-internet era and when the internet
became
dominant, the company was focused entirely on it's software business
and didn't do hardware anymore. Intergraph was always big in the
government arena for things like GIS and large-scale CAD (think
aircraft carriers instead of engine blocks).
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
4:18 p.m.
They had 8550s as well.
--
Will
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Kyle Owen <kylevowen at gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 8:33 AM, William Donzelli
<wdonzelli at gmail.com>
wrote:
Intergraph also used VAX machines as servers, with weird add-ons for
dealing with graphical entities.
Something like this?
http://i.imgur.com/ldZHzjX.jpg
That was the 11/780 with Intergraph cabinets from Auburn University at
least 30 years ago, from what I've been told.
Kyle 
11:32 a.m.
You could have asked who wants it and then ask for an address and then
ship, it's so easy ._.
2014-06-22 15:33 GMT+02:00 William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>:
--
Ola Hughson
That's a
Verilog simulator, isn't it?
Yes.
VAX machines were sometimes rebadged or hidden inside other vendors
CAD systems. I still have a VAX-11/751 in an Applicon cabinet that I
am trying to get rid of.
Intergraph also used VAX machines as servers, with weird add-ons for
dealing with graphical entities.
--
Will
--
Will 
6:58 p.m.
On 22/06/14 2:32 PM, Ola Hughson wrote:
You could have asked who wants it and then ask for an
address and then
ship, it's so easy ._.
I get it! *larf*
2014-06-22 15:33 GMT+02:00 William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>:
That's a Verilog simulator, isn't it?
Yes.
VAX machines were sometimes rebadged or hidden inside other vendors
CAD systems. I still have a VAX-11/751 in an Applicon cabinet that I
am trying to get rid of.
Intergraph also used VAX machines as servers, with weird add-ons for
dealing with graphical entities.
--
Will
--
Will 
8 a.m.
On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
On Jun 21, 2014, at 19:31 , Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote:
There?s an open source SPICE (?ngspice?).
Not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but
SPICE (Simulation
Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis) springs to mind.
Not exactly what I meant, but very much on-topic. I should see if I can get SPICE 2G.6
running on my VAX. I wonder what sort of software DEC used in their
hardware design and production back in the early to mid 1980s?
I remember PDP-15 systems being used for PCB CAD around 1978. And in late 1980 my boss,
lead DECnet/E designer, left that group a few months after hiring me as his junior
developer, to join a new IC CAD group being put together at DEC Hudson. I also remember
hearing of a thing called DECsim which sounded like a system (as opposed to IC) simulation
tool.
In the late 1980s, the Western Research Lab did some very interesting CAD work in a
project to build a single chip processor (MIPS-like, or Alpha-like?) in ECL technology.
That was unheard of ? no one was doing VLSI ECL. They developed their own tools that made
this possible, including being able to define a design in a process-independent fashion so
that they could switch from one fab to another ? changing layout constraint rules ?
easily. In the end, I don?t think the chip was built, but it produced some interesting
offshoots such as early designs for heat sinks and chip test fixtures that would work with
chips running at well over 100 watts.
One thing I remember about that CAD suite is that it let you define subsystems in a number
of ways ? geometry, transistor level, logic gate level, and C code. For example, you
could wrap a flip-flop in ?for (i = 0; i < 64; i++)? to define a 64-bit register. And
they could do behavioral models, power requirement analysis, and chip layout from a single
set of definitions.
I assume at some point there must have been a move to industry tools as opposed to
internally developed ones, but I don?t know when, or to what extent, that happened.
paul
8:16 a.m.
SPICE is still useful software! I remember using it occasionally when doing
my circuits homework back in engineering school (this'll probably get a lot
of groans...) ca. 2002-2003. Much easier for me to figure out than
CADENCE!! :)
Best,
Sean
On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
wrote:
On Jun 22, 2014, at 1:26 AM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
On Jun 21, 2014, at 19:31 , Steven M Jones <classiccmp at crash.com> wrote:
get SPICE
2G.6 running on my VAX.
There?s an open source SPICE (?ngspice?).
Not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but
SPICE (Simulation
Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis) springs to mind.
Not exactly what I meant, but very much on-topic. I should see if I can I wonder what sort of software DEC used in their
hardware design and
production back in the early to mid 1980s?
I remember PDP-15 systems being used for PCB CAD around 1978. And in late
1980 my boss, lead DECnet/E designer, left that group a few months after
hiring me as his junior developer, to join a new IC CAD group being put
together at DEC Hudson. I also remember hearing of a thing called DECsim
which sounded like a system (as opposed to IC) simulation tool.
In the late 1980s, the Western Research Lab did some very interesting CAD
work in a project to build a single chip processor (MIPS-like, or
Alpha-like?) in ECL technology. That was unheard of ? no one was doing
VLSI ECL. They developed their own tools that made this possible,
including being able to define a design in a process-independent fashion so
that they could switch from one fab to another ? changing layout constraint
rules ? easily. In the end, I don?t think the chip was built, but it
produced some interesting offshoots such as early designs for heat sinks
and chip test fixtures that would work with chips running at well over 100
watts.
One thing I remember about that CAD suite is that it let you define
subsystems in a number of ways ? geometry, transistor level, logic gate
level, and C code. For example, you could wrap a flip-flop in ?for (i = 0;
i < 64; i++)? to define a 64-bit register. And they could do behavioral
models, power requirement analysis, and chip layout from a single set of
definitions.
I assume at some point there must have been a move to industry tools as
opposed to internally developed ones, but I don?t know when, or to what
extent, that happened.
paul
8:41 a.m.
On Jun 22, 2014, at 11:00, Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> wrote:
There?s an open source SPICE (?ngspice?).
Well, regular SPICE is also open source, but development
pretty much ended at 3f5. Ngspice is a current-development
continuation of 3f5, but it probably won't run on an 11/750
very well.
- Dave
9:32 a.m.
In article <9667D20E-E642-488E-92AD-363F2E3BE9AA at comcast.net>,
Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net> writes:
In the late 1980s, the Western Research Lab did some
very interesting CAD
work in a project to build a single chip processor (MIPS-like, or
Alpha-like?) in ECL technology. That was unheard of -- no one was doing
VLSI ECL. They developed their own tools that made this possible,
including being able to define a design in a process-independent fashion so
that they could switch from one fab to another -- changing layout constraint
rules -- easily. In the end, I don't think the chip was built, but it
produced some interesting offshoots such as early designs for heat sinks
and chip test fixtures that would work with chips running at well over 100
watts.
A bunch of DEC technical reports were added to bitsavers. I think I
remember seeing this project mentioned in some of the titles:
<http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/tech_reports/>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
11:47 p.m.
On 6/21/2014 10:26 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I wonder what sort of software DEC used in their
hardware design and
production back in the early to mid 1980s?
I was in DEC h/w engineering from '75 thru '82.
Most of the systems designed and produced prior to about 1980 or so had manually
drawn schematics, by draftsmen on vellum.
Most of these are pretty obvious to identify by looking at the copies of the
maintenance print sets.
The netlists for these boards were manually transcribed to text to be
transferred to the PCB layout systems.
PCB layout was done on standalone PDP-15 systems with an attached graphics
display, button console, etc, using DEC custom software.
Starting in '79 or so DEC engineering imported the 'SUDS' system from
Stanford,
which allowed for graphical schematic design.
Here is a reference:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/engineering/The_Stanford_Univers…
SUDS itself ran on DEC-10s. Users sat at dedicated 11/34+VS60 graphics terminals.
Typically a DEC engineering site might have two to three SUDS stations for use
by engineers (or for lab techs entering schematics for old school engineers who
did not know how to use these new fangled computer devices).
SUDS terminals were a sought after resource. I don't know how many overnights I
spent at a SUDS terminal back then, but it was more than a few.
The PDP-11/44 and 11/24 were designs done on SUDS, as was the VAX-11/730.
You can recognize the SUDS schematic pages as the might have the 'default'
drawn-by signature of 'S. Foonly' in the title box.
They will also have the file name of the page in the title box, something like:
[160,1257]XXXX.DRW
PCB layout was still done using the legacy PDP-15 systems, but the netlist could
be exported from SUDS.
I don't know if SUDS was ever ported to a VAX host (it would have been a lot of
work, as I believe it was written in Macro-10).
At least while I was around in the early 80s one of the key reasons to keep a
KL-10 at each DEC engineering site was as a SUDS host.
How long SUDS remained in use after '82 (when I left) I can't say.
23 Jun
23 Jun
12:38 a.m.
Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com> wrote:
Starting in '79 or so DEC engineering imported the
'SUDS' system from
Stanford, which allowed for graphical schematic design.
I think DEC probably started using it in LCG before 1975, since the KL10
schematics are drawn in SUDS. However, it may well have taken a few years
to be adopted by other parts of DEC.
4:21 a.m.
Hey Don,thanks for sharing with us in such detail your experience from back then :)
Kind regards,
Pierre
?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de
________________________________
Von: Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com>
An:
Gesendet: 7:47 Montag, 23.Juni 2014
Betreff: Re: VAX-11/7xx Electronic CAD Software?
On 6/21/2014 10:26 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I wonder what sort of software DEC used in their
hardware design and
production back in the early to mid 1980s?
I was in DEC h/w engineering from '75 thru '82.
Most of the systems designed and produced prior to about 1980 or so had manually
drawn schematics, by draftsmen on vellum.
Most of these are pretty obvious to identify by looking at the copies of the
maintenance print sets.
The netlists for these boards were manually transcribed to text to be
transferred to the PCB layout systems.
PCB layout was done on standalone PDP-15 systems with an attached graphics
display, button console, etc, using DEC custom software.
Starting in '79 or so DEC engineering imported the 'SUDS' system from
Stanford,
which allowed for graphical schematic design.
Here is a reference:
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/engineering/The_Stanford_Univers…
SUDS itself ran on DEC-10s. Users sat at dedicated 11/34+VS60 graphics terminals.
Typically a DEC engineering site might have two to three SUDS stations for use
by engineers (or for lab techs entering schematics for old school engineers who
did not know how to use these new fangled computer devices).
SUDS terminals were a sought after resource. I don't know how many overnights I
spent at a SUDS terminal back then, but it was more than a few.
The PDP-11/44 and 11/24 were designs done on SUDS, as was the VAX-11/730.
You can recognize the SUDS schematic pages as the might have the 'default'
drawn-by signature of 'S. Foonly' in the title box.
They will also have the file name of the page in the title box, something like:
? [160,1257]XXXX.DRW
PCB layout was still done using the legacy PDP-15 systems, but the netlist could
be exported from SUDS.
I don't know if SUDS was ever ported to a VAX host (it would have been a lot of
work, as I believe it was written in Macro-10).
At least while I was around in the early 80s one of the key reasons to keep a
KL-10 at each DEC engineering site was as a SUDS host.
How long SUDS remained in use after '82 (when I left) I can't say.
6:37 a.m.
On Jun 22, 2014, at 23:47 , Don North <ak6dn at mindspring.com> wrote:
On 6/21/2014 10:26 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
[...]
Cool! Thank you for posting! I wonder whether any of those internal DEC tools have been
archived anywhere? I sure hope they're not lost.
--
Mark J. Blair, NF6X <nf6x at nf6x.net>
http://www.nf6x.net/
I wonder what sort of software DEC used in their
hardware design and production back in the early to mid 1980s?
I was in DEC h/w engineering from '75 thru '82. 
21 Jun
21 Jun
7:31 p.m.
On 06/21/2014 11:30 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote:
I'm curious about what sort of software might have
been used during the 1980s on VAX-11/7xx series machines to support design and/or
production of electronic hardware.
Not sure if this is exactly what you meant, but SPICE (Simulation
Program with Integrated Circuit Emphasis) springs to mind.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPICE - should be some links to more
packages from roughly the right era if you dig around.
--S.
23 Jun
23 Jun
9:47 a.m.
On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 1:30 PM, Mark J. Blair <nf6x at nf6x.net> wrote:
I'm curious about what sort of software might have
been used during the
1980s on VAX-11/7xx series machines to support design and/or production of
electronic hardware.
When I began with my current company in 1989, I was doing PCB layout and
schematic capture for MIL qualified avionics.
For schematic capture, we had a trio of Valid Scaldstation minis that
served several green screen graphics terminals each. Each terminal was a
~19" tube attached to a dedicated table with a built in digitizer. The
SCALD software allowed the engineers to run circuit simulations and the
draftsman to generate releasable drawings and generate a netlist to send to
board layout.
For the board layout we used the Scicards software on a 11/780 running
VMS. Like the Valid machines, the Scicards had its own dedicated graphics
terminal with integrated digitizer. The main difference was that the
Scicards terminal was color and we only had a single seat.
As far as usability goes, the Valid machines were very nice to use and were
relatively easy to get the desired results with. On the other hand, the
Scicards software is memorable for how annoying it was to use. I vividly
recall creating long lists of guessed X-Y coordinate moves to try to get
the text and symbols to be where you wanted them, only to see them land in
the wrong spot. Repeat.
By the way, all of the equipment mentioned was transferred into the
collector community when we moved back in 2002. I don't recall who has
them, but there are (were?) Scicards and Valid terminals out there.
-Jon
24 Jun
24 Jun
11:45 a.m.
New subject: Scicards and Valid graphics terminals (was: VAX-11/7xx Electronic CAD Software?)
In article <CAD+kn802bg3B4dmkFLTFCUqSyzT4WnsVK3fkrxPFE74PReXpeQ at mail.gmail.com>,
"auringer tds.net" <auringer at tds.net> writes:
For schematic capture, we had a trio of Valid
Scaldstation minis that
served several green screen graphics terminals each. Each terminal was a
~19" tube attached to a dedicated table with a built in digitizer. [..]
By the way, all of the equipment mentioned was transferred into the
collector community when we moved back in 2002. I don't recall who has
them, but there are (were?) Scicards and Valid terminals out there.
I'd love to talk with the person(s) that took custody of this hardware
and software!
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://ComputerGraphicsMuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://LegalizeAdulthood.wordpress.com>
3794
days inactive
3797
days old
22 comments
15 participants
participants (15)
-
ak6dn＠mindspring.com -
auringer＠tds.net -
cclist＠sydex.com -
classiccmp＠crash.com -
f.helyanvy＠gmail.com -
fraveydank＠gmail.com -
kylevowen＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
nf6x＠nf6x.net -
p.gebhardt＠ymail.com -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
scaron＠umich.edu -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com