What? With an MOTAS [1]? Fortunately (I guess) there are no such people who wish to associate with somebody whose idea of a good time involves machine tools... [1] A = appropriate. I am not making any comments on your lifestyle. I don't know, and it's nothing to do with me. -tony

Speaking of Jeri, have you guys seen her latest video (posted earlier today) on YouTube? Rocket Candy-Canes! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XjIxYQAO8Pk The pinball video (with speed camera) is another memorable video of hers, but my favourite at the moment is the one where she had a high speed camera (1200 FPS) and deliberately wired up 2 electrolytic capicators the wrong way to make them explode. One had the 'Y' indents on the top and the other didn't. Suffice to say, the 'Y' one smoked before exploding and the other one just went with a big bang! :) Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 2010 1:03 AM Subject: Re: semi-OT: do you routinely attempt projects out of your comfort

On Mar 11, 2010, at 12:55 PM, Keith wrote: Hmm, that's a no-brainer: "I hired a good marketing team and got elected, wheeee!" vs. "I can CHASE THAT BALL, wheeee!" vs. "I can make my own chips in my house, wheeee!" Who would YOU rather have in your group of survivors after a holocaust? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

I understand that dates with Bob Crane did get kind of weird. -- Will

Jim Leonard wrote: Yo Trixta', Are you coming to BlOcK PaRtY 2010 in Cleveland? Keith

I certainly do. Just last night, I was learning how to manipulate CAM software to cut out parts for a RepRap on a Shopbot. I'm fine with traditional woodworking, and with computers, but a large-format CNC router table is new to me. With lots of help from other enthusiastic newbies on the gear, we managed to cut the right shape, but at 91% of the correct size - more to learn. We always had a wood and metal shop in the garage when I was growing up, but it was traditional gear (table saw, radial arm saw, band saw, drill press, oxy-acetylene torch, arc welder, grinders, hand tools, etc.) I'm having a blast learning CAM software (the CAD stuff could sure be easier to learn, I gotta say) - and I'm finding my experience with PCBs and Gerber files has been essential to understanding the problems I've run into manipulating the Shopbot. -ethan

Ray Arachelian wrote: You have checked for un-dead in your area ... right !?

On Mar 8, 2010, at 5:33 PM, Ray Arachelian wrote: BRAINSSSS!! I downloaded that entire series of movies not long ago. I need to inflict them upon my defenseless girlfriend. She took Tampopo pretty well; she might just handle the zombies too. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Chuck Guzis wrote: I believe this is the case, but can't verify yet as I've not been able to pry a tile out fully. If I can fix the two or three that are rising, I'll be happy, if not, if it turns out I'll have to redo the whole kitchen floor, I'll get a contractor. At that point, it wouldn't be worth the effort involved to do the whole floor myself and possibly getting it wrong and having to redo it a year later, or whatever. There was a lot of weird stuff with this house. A few years ago, the wooden floor tiles in another area started to peel off, they turned out to be humidity sensitive, and they were very thin - maybe 1/4th inch or something glued to each other in patterns. There was no wood underneath them as you'd expect. Instead, someone installed them ontop of a previous vinyl floor. So we paid a guy to redo it, and it's much better now. So maybe this will turn out that way also... But I'll keep scraping around the grout and wiggling when I'm over the flu and see if I can pry one off.

Chuck Guzis wrote: I laid a bamboo floor in my living room/dining room, and it was surprisingly easy. Rented a floor nailer from HD, and it was actually fun. The hardpart was laying out the first row ensuring it was perfectly square with the opposite wall. I think it finished within 1/4-1/2" over the width, about 12'. Keith

Tony Duell wrote: I think you've summed it up pretty well there. It's more fun to learn how to do something, then do it, than it is to give Joe Bloggs down the street a fiver to do it. There are certain exceptions... if I needed some mechanical component machining I'd probably look for a local machine shop and ask them (my metalworking "skills" are sub-par at best -- I can drill holes in metal equipment panels without damaging myself or my cheap little cordless drill, but that's about it). And as far as I'm concerned repairing things is a no-lose game -- I'll either not be able to fix it (in which case I'm still in the same situation I was at the start) or I'll fix it and finish up minus a few spare parts, but ahead one working $ITEM... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Tony Duell wrote: There's an engineering company in Huddersfield (Pennine Radio) that does sheet-metal and machining work. I'm toying with the idea of asking them for a quote on doing the CNC work on the DiscFerret front/rear panels. If I had a CNC rig I'd do it myself, but the idea of drilling out the front panels for even a small production run does not appeal to me... Knowing Epson kit, that "non-factory replacement part" (GRIN) will probably outlast the rest of the printer. The last two Epsons I had (a C84 and a C86) both died from Blocked Print-head Syndrome. The ink dries in the head, then when the piezo actuators are triggered on power up for the "cleaning" cycle, they break/blow. Ugh. I've since switched to a colour laser printer (Kyocera FS-C5200dn) for most things, and only keep an inkjet around (Canon iP4600) for PCB transparencies and the occasional photo print (I've got a shelf full of JetStar Premium film and Canon ink cartridges and I'll be damned if I'm not going to use them!). Somehow, even if I leave the iP4600 for months, it always works when I come back to it... If I did that, I'd most likely be living in a Mr Trebus-style clutter-pit within the year. (for anyone that doesn't get the reference: look up a 1999 BBC TV series called "A Life of Grime") -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Tony Duell wrote: Maybe, maybe not... Point taken, though I'd rather like to offer a ready-built version (panels pre-drilled and labelled) for those who just want a "plug in and go" solution. Although I suppose the "project kit" is a neat way around the RoHS and (possibly) EMC regulations, I doubt most folks have the tools to solder down a QFN chip -- for some odd reason, FPGA power controllers tend to come in leadless IC packages. So do I -- I've been stocking up on 60:40 solder, and I've got a tube of 60:40 solder paste in the fridge (to use with my homebrew reflow oven -- an Argos mini-oven with a thermocouple, some relays and a microcontroller bolted on). I've also got some lead-free stuff that I've been meaning to try, but I'm not going to actually use it unless forced to :) Oh, a dot-matrix Epson? Yeah, those things are tanks. I've got an LX80 sitting in the loft gathering dust -- IIRC it needs a new ribbon, but besides that there's not a lot wrong with it. From past experience, it's pretty hard to kill an impact printer... Unless it's a Citizen 120D+ -- the interface modules on those plug into the side of the printer, but the guide rails for said interface don't always engage properly. Net result is that the interface connectors get smashed to bits. Did I mention it was a custom part? DIN41612-style dual-row, but with 30 pins and an odd pin pitch... Citizen were extremely hesitant to give out any form of service documentation or sell any spare parts (even a print head, which is listed in the user's guide as a user-replaceable part). Pah. Last time I checked, you could still buy "genuine Epson" print ribbons and heads directly from Epson. Even things like the M180-series embedded modules are still supported... (probably because about half of Epson's desktop impact-type POS printers use that particular mechanism) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

On 3/11/2010 2:52 PM, Tony Duell wrote: I wish this were true, but sadly, I have not found it to be a fact. In fact, I'm shying away from kits now, due to the experiences I have had: * Through hole kits to make it easier for the hobbyist tends to require more PCB space, which drives up the cost a bit (not a major issue, but something to consider). Obviously, an SMT kit would not suffer from this issue * If you offer kits and complete units, people see the cost difference, and they decide "they can do it". Then, they get it down, it does not work, and then they take up lots of time asking questions or trying to debug over email. * Most people decide it's not worth the effort to solder, so they just pay the extra anyway. Jim

Real dumb question: does an emulator exist (either through MESS or similar) for the HP 64000?

I have source code listings in HP64000 assembler format, so I figured maybe that might be a good way to generate binaries from the sources. Are there any assembler tools (Z80 and MC6801 specific) that use HP64000 assembler/linker directives? ________________________________ From: J. David Bryan <jdbryan at acm.org> To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only <cctech at classiccmp.org> Sent: Mon, March 15, 2010 10:02:47 PM Subject: Re: HP 64000 Emulator? On Friday, March 12, 2010 at 15:58, Geoff Oltmans wrote: I am unaware of any. It's not completely clear to me, though, what utility a 64000 emulator would provide. One could run the basic OS and the compilers and linkers, but most of the programs are tied to specific hardware option cards and are disabled (i.e., not even presented as available commands) if the corresponding cards are not installed. For example, the PROM programmer software refuses to run if a PROM card is not present in the station. Are you trying to solve a specific problem? -- Dave

Tony Duell wrote: Like I said before, though -- the DiscFerret is an almost completely SMD design. In fact, the only parts of the board that aren't SMD are the USB connector (a Lumberg thru-hole B-type "device" connector), the power connector (Switchcraft RAPC722 2.1mm DC barrel socket), and the interface connector (40-pin right-angled IDC with latch ears). As a bare minimum, if I made a kit, I'd want to supply it with the power controller chip soldered down (the aforementioned QFN chip -- TI TPS75003). That's simply because the leads don't extend up the side of the package, which makes it close to impossible to solder down without a hot-air station. Pin pitch is an eye watering 0.5mm, and there are 20 pins to solder, plus the under-chip ground/heatsink pad. The LM2679 Simple Switcher chip is tame by comparison (1.27mm pin pitch aka 50 mil or half DIL pitch), and the solder tab extends past the plastic body, so is dead easy to solder down to the heatsink plane. The FPGA is narrow pitch (0.5mm QFP), but can be soldered down using "drag soldering" -- basically cover the pins in gel flux and run a hot soldering iron down an entire row of pins at once. Same goes for the J-lead or TSOP-II SRAM chip -- soak it in flux and drag-solder it. Replacement isn't hard either -- in some ways it's easier than thru-hole because the through-plating doesn't tend to suck away heat or get filled with solder that just won't melt. Either hit it with a hot air gun, or Chipquik works terrifically well on leaded chips. The latter is basically Wood's Metal and a special flux. I don't -- I've done it, it's a snap once you know the tricks. The problem I have is that if I sell these things as kits, someone's going to send one back and RMA it because they f00ked the soldering. The other problem is that the PICmicro is supplied blank, so anyone building a DF would have to have a PIC programmer. Admittedly they're not expensive (a brand-new PICKit2 costs about ?30 with the Debug Express demo board or about ?20 without). Once you've flashed in the bootloader, the chip can have the Usercode (the non-bootloader bit of the firmware) and Microcode loaded over USB. The trick is getting the bootloader in there in the first place... Would this be more to your liking? User's Guide / Programming Guide Software installation / basic usage Hardware pinouts -- disc interface / power connectors API documentation and USB control protocol Firmware theory of operation (possibly useful if you want to play with it at a lower level than DiscAPI allows) Service Manual Schematics PCB layout diagram (x2 magnified) PCB top and bottom layer (x2 magnified) (useful if a trace gets burned away!) Parts manifest Assembly instructions (for kits) Hardware theory of operation (for each major section) (no sense in building a kit if you don't know how it works!) Unless a failed part is NLA... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Tony Duell wrote: The FPGA needs the power to be sequenced in the order: VCORE up short delay VIO up another short delay release RESET and load microcode Additionally, there is a minimum and maximum ramp rates for VCORE and VIO; go too slowly and the POR doesn't work properly, go too fast and the FPGA can "potentially enter a latch-up situation" according to the datasheet. It's far easier to just use a solution that Altera have given the rubber-stamped seal of approval to. In this case, it also costs less than half of what a similar design using standard SMPSU controller chips (e.g. something from the NatSemi Simple Switcher series) would cost. So effectively I'm getting to tick three boxes: 1) It's less likely to Blow Stuff Up 2) Altera say it'll work with the FPGA chip, thus I get to yell at them if it doesn't. Also TI are saying it'll work, and they provide a reference design for the chip I'm using, which is another bonus. 3) It's Cheap. Cheaper, in fact, than the 5V pre-regulator (the NSC Simple Switcher part). But in exchange I can't tick this box: 4) It's easy to solder the chip down to the PCB So it's a trade-off. Alternatively I can get a chip that meets criteria (4), but not (1), (2) and (3). Also, FPGAs are expensive -- you generally don't want Bad Things to happen to them! The hard (or at least expensive) part is going to be dealing with the EMC regs... On the plus side, the 12V input means it's exempt from LVD regs ("that would be the power supply manufacturer's problem, not mine") On the website and a CD-R that I plan to include in the box :) No PALs or CPLDs, but the FPGA source is included with the MCU source. 8^) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

On Mar 11, 2010, at 12:48 PM, Keith wrote: It's still pretty opaque, but that has changed a lot in recent years. There's some good introductory material out there, as well as at least one very good Verilog simulator that allows one to learn a great deal about Verilog without (yet) messing with the hardware. Then you can use that very same simulator for actual work. I'm right there with you on that. I delayed getting into DSP on any level for exactly that reason...99% of the books on DSP are equations from cover to cover, not a damn thing about programming or implementing algorithms. I suspect that many of these books are written with the same goal in mind as most of the DSP books: To impress one's colleagues. He's talking about microcode, you're talking (presumably) about assembler.. -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Keith wrote: Well get the parts for it while you can... or a shotgun... This is a hobby, so take what ever pace you like. Ben.

Keith wrote: Also known as a wiring pencil. Think of a mechanical pencil with the eraser replaced by a holder for a sewing machine spool. That spool holds a supply of ~30SWG enamelled copper wire. The company that makes them is, unsurprisingly, also called RoadRunner: http://www.rrunner.co.uk/ There are some photos of the pens here: http://www.rrunner.co.uk/pens/pens.htm They've been around for years, though as I understand it they're more popular in the UK than they are anywhere else. Price is about ?15 for the pen and a spool of wire, then ?7 for a pack of four spools of wire. They do the wire in 38SWG and 36SWG diameter enamelled (in a choice of four colours), and also in a 33SWG tinned copper (uninsulated) version. I built my 6502 computer with one, and they work fairly well for low-pin-count socketed PLCC parts as well. Wouldn't want to try a PGA, though. Verilog isn't that hard to learn, it's all the other stuff that goes along with it (metastability, clock synchronisation, clock domains, finite-state machine implementation, ...) -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Sorry for the late reply. Brad Parker wrote: Yeah, I think the one problem is that I'm trying to learn logic design AND verilog at the same time. I've got some basic skills but they are definitely falling short. When you talk about courses via the web, are you referring to stuff like MIT's OCW, or ? An EE friend of mine used "Contemporary Logic Design", and it looks like the book is available used for cheap. I flipped through it, it seems decent enough. Any other recommendations? The language templates within xilinx's ISE provide a number of example state machines. I've used their basic outlines, and then watched the synthesis process to ensure that the state machines were being extracted and recognized in my projects. Is this by Mark Gordon Arnold from 1998? I always wonder about older books. If they are the defacto reference standard, it's one thing. I sometimes think that if they are generic enough to still apply, it's not specific enough to my boards/environment/current language standards to help. If I'm working on classic computer stuff, then much of material is old, so then the associated books are old too. Thanks Keith

On Sun, 21 Mar 2010, Brad Parker wrote: What's wrong with pulse or async logic designs? I personally find them fascinating, but I've never gotten to play with an implementation of one... Are there problems with designing like this that made people switch to sync designs? Anyone know of any good books on non-synchronous logic design? Alexey

Alexey Toptygin wrote: I think the first thing needed is a good definition of async vs sync design. "Async design" seems to be something of a catch-all category that includes everything that isn't purely synchronous. The Von-Neumann IAS machine design is sometimes described as being async with no definitive clock rate, but I've never seen a description of what that means in terms of that actual design. The problem with async designs, at last by some definition, is the different delays through combinatorial logic and staggered clocking of state-holding elements (flip-flops) can result in glitches in subsequent signals derived from that logic. If those derived signals are then used to clock other elements, extraneous clocking can occur. The designer has to keep on top of this - be constantly aware of where it may occur in the system - and account for it, sometimes by tailoring the logic with delay elements to 'pass over' (ignore) the glitches (see below). Glitches can/do occur in synchronous systems as well, but there is one global rule for accounting for them: clock everything at the same time (synchronously), and wait a fixed period until everything settles before clocking again. I dealt with a reasonably complex async-design logic system from the 60's in reverse-engineering and repairing a Casio AL-1000 calculator: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/misc/CasioAL1000Tech/index.html and in particular: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/eec/misc/CasioAL1000Tech/electronics.html#edg… What I call 'edge-pulse gates' - a sort of monostable - are injected into the logic at appropriate places to soak up the glitches (one would have to look at the schematic to see where/how they are actually used).

On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 3:01 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote: Wow indeed! That display looks familiar - I might have one on my shelf. I picked up a PCB loaded with vertically-mounted Nixies plus a neon-bulb "minus" indicator many, many years ago at Dayton. I have yet to assemble a driver for it, but I've always thought about repurposing it as a clock/calendar display. The PCB has a small bundle of wires coming off one end, and the foil pattern shows a multiplexed arrangement, IIRC (so 10 cathodes and 13-14 anodes, if I'm remembering it correctly). I should check the PCB for any tell-tale markings. Thanks for the link - it's certainly an interesting device. -ethan

On 11 Mar 2010 at 13:01, someone wrote: Even more OT, but potentially useful. If you have trouble emailing ZIP or RAR archives containing executables to recipients with servers that refuse such stuff (e.g. gmail), try using LHARC to archive the attachment. It's crufty enough that most spam filters don't recognize it, yet WinRAR (as well as LHARC and a few other packages) processes the archive just fine. I suspect that the same holds for .ARC, .LBR and .ZOO archives. --Chuck