14 Jan
2015
14 Jan
'15
2:33 p.m.
From: Sean Caron
This, too, is something I'd be willing potentially
to host gratis,
given the same caveats that I offered Alexandre...
Please do! I will volunteer to start contributing content as soon as it's up.
not totally a commercial datacenter in terms of
available bandwidth
I can't imagine a wiki on the topic of classic computers would draw _that_
much traffic? :-)
I wouldn't have a problem supporting Mediawiki or
common back-end
technologies in general i.e. PHP, MySQL...
Please get yourself totally up to speed to run a wiki, then! :-)
I can host DNS if someone wanted to get a domain name
for it...
Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"? Pick
out one of your statics, let Jay know it, and if he can update the DNS config
file for the classiccmp.org zone we're done!
Noel
14 Jan
14 Jan
2:37 p.m.
Oh, yeah, good point; we can just piggyback off of *.classiccmp.org. I work
with MediaWiki all the time at the office... I'll try to sit down when I
get home tonight and spin up a little virtual host for it. Ask and you
shall receive :)
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Noel Chiappa <jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu>
wrote:
From: Sean
Caron
This, too, is something I'd be willing
potentially to host gratis,
given the same caveats that I offered Alexandre...
Please do! I will volunteer to start contributing content as soon as it's
up.
not totally a commercial datacenter in terms of
available bandwidth
I can't imagine a wiki on the topic of classic computers would draw _that_
much traffic? :-)
I wouldn't have a problem supporting
Mediawiki or common back-end
technologies in general i.e. PHP, MySQL...
Please get yourself totally up to speed to run a wiki, then! :-)
I can host DNS if someone wanted to get a domain
name for it...
Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"?
Pick
out one of your statics, let Jay know it, and if he can update the DNS
config
file for the classiccmp.org zone we're done!
Noel
2:47 p.m.
On 1/14/15 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it
"wiki.classiccmp.org"?
There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd
talk to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one.
As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that
are not hosted by Jay.
3:05 p.m.
The Wiki would be hosted directly on one of my personal machines; the only
thing relating it to classiccmp.org would be an A record in DNS.
Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow
from hosting a MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so
I'm always interested
in hearing criticism of the software.
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:47 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote:
On 1/14/15 11:33 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it "wiki.classiccmp.org"?
There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd
talk to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one.
As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that
are not hosted by Jay.
3:53 p.m.
Sean wrote...
Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow from hosting a
MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so I'm always interested in hearing criticism of the
software.
------
how about google "Mediawiki security vulnerabilities". Most anyone that even
touches mediawiki in a cursory fashion is aware there are frequent issues with it.
Better yet, go to CVE and see the current list of exploits?
We do host hundreds of mediawiki sites, so we're up on the issues and how to prevent
them. It helps to have a staff dedicated to this.
J
4:18 p.m.
You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to
make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite
effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist
offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to
crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or
even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it?
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Sean wrote...
Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow
from hosting a MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so I'm always interested
in hearing criticism of the software.
------
how about google "Mediawiki security vulnerabilities". Most anyone that
even touches mediawiki in a cursory fashion is aware there are frequent
issues with it.
Better yet, go to CVE and see the current list of exploits?
We do host hundreds of mediawiki sites, so we're up on the issues and how
to prevent them. It helps to have a staff dedicated to this.
J
4:40 p.m.
Sean wrote....
----
You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to make people
think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite effect. I mean, using
your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow,
impressive. If you really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from
scratch and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it?
----
Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer hobbyist?
That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here.
*PLONK*
4:35 p.m.
What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing
that here.
On 1/14/2015 4:40 PM, Jay West wrote:
Sean wrote....
----
You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to make people
think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite effect. I mean, using
your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow,
impressive. If you really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from
scratch and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it?
----
Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer hobbyist?
That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here.
*PLONK*
4:42 p.m.
it is the sound of something (or someone) bouncing off the bottom of the
bit bucket.
alas, needless carnage.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 4:35 PM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
On 1/14/2015 4:40 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Sean wrote....
> ----
> You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to
> make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite
> effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist
> offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to
> crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or
> even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it?
> ----
>
> Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer
> hobbyist? That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here.
>
> *PLONK*
>
>
>
>
>
4:51 p.m.
On 1/14/15 1:35 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
From USENET. The sound of a message hitting the trash can, normally implying
any further messages from the sender will receive the same treatment.
5:08 p.m.
JS wrote...
What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
------
So... is that "You don't know", or.. "You do know and you're
commenting about it being seen HERE an unusually large amount" *GRIN*
In the context in which I meant it..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk_%28Usenet%29
J
5:15 p.m.
On 2015-01-14 22:35, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
It means people put you in their spam filters so they don't have to see
any mails/posts from you any more.
Johnny
On 1/14/2015 4:40 PM, Jay West wrote:
> Sean wrote....
> ----
> You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is
> to make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the
> opposite effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a
> hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you
> really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch
> and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell.
> Up for it?
> ----
>
> Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic
> computer hobbyist? That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here.
>
> *PLONK*
>
>
>
>
--
Johnny Billquist || "I'm on a bus
|| on a psychedelic trip
email: bqt at softjar.se || Reading murder books
pdp is alive! || tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol
5:47 p.m.
On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the
killfile. :)
A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email
finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never
delivered.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
7:33 p.m.
Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth and static IPs when
various people expressed a need.
I didn't realize that Jay was the only person allowed to respond to those
kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and
I'll leave it to him.
I don't understand why my just offering up some free hosting got Jay so
worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey, everything
you are running is a joke, waste of time... and, I mean, fine, you can have
your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as
a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional
sysadmin.
If this list were running on my machines, the first thing I'd tell you is
that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it.
I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's Jay's sandbox.
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that
here.
It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the
killfile. :)
A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email
finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never
delivered.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
8:19 p.m.
On 1/14/2015 7:33 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth
and static IPs when
various people expressed a need.
Nothing wrong with the offer
I didn't realize that Jay was the only person
allowed to respond to those
kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and
I'll leave it to him.
Maybe you need to bone up on your comprehension skills. Please show me
_exactly_ where Jay said he was the only person allowed to respond.
I don't understand why my just offering up some
free hosting got Jay so
worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey, everything
you are running is a joke, waste of time...
Again, where was this said?
... and, I mean, fine, you can have
your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as
a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional
sysadmin.
A bit touchy?
If this list were running on my machines, the first
thing I'd tell you is
that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it.
Which is what he's said for years. He's always said he'd host a classic
computing related site gratis. He merely reiterated his standing offer,
while adding that he has real business class infrastructure to host it on.
I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's
Jay's sandbox.
I can't, and won't, ask you to leave; but I won't stop you either.
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>
>> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
>>
>> It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the
> killfile. :)
>
> A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email
> finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never
> delivered.
>
> g.
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech -http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst -http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
15 Jan
15 Jan
2:02 a.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
What Jay said:
"I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. that is classic
computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, you can host your site
with us for no charge." and "I fully support you offering (free) hosting
services for vintage computer stuff. I am glad there are people out there
besides just me willing to host classic computer related sites"
And for newcomers he offered some background on the system which hosts this
list and a number of related web sites, mainly to reassure us that we don't
have to worry about uptime, speed, capacity or it disappearing any time soon
as so many other sites are doing these days.
At least that's what I read; where did you read anything like what you're
replying to below?
... "Jay's the only person allowed to respond" ??
... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ??
... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ??
... "I will leave if asked" ??
Huh?
As a matter of fact I can't think of any time when someone has not been
"allowed to respond" to anything on this list, not even I when I've gone on
too long with some rant or another (like this one ;).
Where does this come from? Why are some people so ready and almost
determined to see /personal/ attacks where nothing of the sort is intended
and that no one else reading the thread can see, especially when the
original post is actually meant in a positive sense?
I was recently banned from another list, apparently because a moderator
inexplicably took offence at a post of mine thanking him for expanding on a
reply from another member to a question I'd asked; I was gratified to
receive a number of emails off-list from members just as puzzled as I as to
what my 'crime' had been.
(BTW, in case you're interested: the /V(erify) option in DOS copy commands
really does NOT actually verify that the file has been correctly copied,
just that there were no write errors ;)
We're all in this to help and respect each other, so let's read/think twice
before deciding that we've been attacked or insulted and responding
inappropriately.
And while I'm at it, let me thank Jay, Chuck, Al, Tony, Terry and all the
other folks whom I've inadvertently overlooked for the (computer) time,
knowledge, hard- and software, documentation etc. etc that they've freely
donated and shared with the rest of our little community.
Thanks!!
m
----- Original Message -----
From: "Sean Caron" <scaron at umich.edu>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "Sean Caron" <scaron at umich.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth
and static IPs when
various people expressed a need.
I didn't realize that Jay was the only person allowed to respond to those
kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and
I'll leave it to him.
I don't understand why my just offering up some free hosting got Jay so
worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey,
everything
you are running is a joke, waste of time... and, I mean, fine, you can
have
your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as
a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional
sysadmin.
If this list were running on my machines, the first thing I'd tell you is
that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it.
I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's Jay's sandbox.
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>
>> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
>>
>> It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the
> killfile. :)
>
> A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email
> finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never
> delivered.
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>
11:23 a.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
Look, I basically let this go yesterday night. All I did was (1) call out
some specious hand-waving about how insecure Mediawiki is and my perceived
implication in that statement that, by endorsing Mediawiki or administering
a Mediawiki I am not a security-conscious admin and (2) offer up free Wiki
and static-Web hosting services to other hobbyists on this list.
You can read yourself all the threads and decide for yourself, if they were
being written to you, would you find them offensive? I know I wasn't the
only one who found it a little bit over the top. Jay had many literary
mechanisms available that he could have used to make his points; I found
the ones he selected in particular to be offensive.
I will absolutely rise to it if someone wants to come at me, I guess if
that makes me thin-skinned, so be it, I will wear that badge. I learned how
to deal with bullies long ago. If I had responded to someone else like Jay
responded to me, I would have been pilloried. He doesn't get a free pass
with me just by being the list owner although it's well within his rights
to ask me to leave or kick of me off (neither have happened, so, hey, good
sports, I guess).
Last response from me regarding any of this nastiness from yesterday. If
you or anyone else wants to chat further regarding this topic you're
welcome to shoot me a personal e-mail.
Best,
Sean
On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 2:02 AM, Mike Stein <mhs.stein at gmail.com> wrote:
What Jay said:
"I'm happy to host any website, ftp site, wiki, etc. etc. that is classic
computer related. As long as it meets that criteria, you can host your site
with us for no charge." and "I fully support you offering (free) hosting
services for vintage computer stuff. I am glad there are people out there
besides just me willing to host classic computer related sites"
And for newcomers he offered some background on the system which hosts this
list and a number of related web sites, mainly to reassure us that we don't
have to worry about uptime, speed, capacity or it disappearing any time
soon
as so many other sites are doing these days.
At least that's what I read; where did you read anything like what you're
replying to below?
... "Jay's the only person allowed to respond" ??
... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ??
... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ??
... "I will leave if asked" ??
Huh?
As a matter of fact I can't think of any time when someone has not been
"allowed to respond" to anything on this list, not even I when I've gone
on
too long with some rant or another (like this one ;).
Where does this come from? Why are some people so ready and almost
determined to see /personal/ attacks where nothing of the sort is intended
and that no one else reading the thread can see, especially when the
original post is actually meant in a positive sense?
I was recently banned from another list, apparently because a moderator
inexplicably took offence at a post of mine thanking him for expanding on a
reply from another member to a question I'd asked; I was gratified to
receive a number of emails off-list from members just as puzzled as I as to
what my 'crime' had been.
(BTW, in case you're interested: the /V(erify) option in DOS copy commands
really does NOT actually verify that the file has been correctly copied,
just that there were no write errors ;)
We're all in this to help and respect each other, so let's read/think twice
before deciding that we've been attacked or insulted and responding
inappropriately.
And while I'm at it, let me thank Jay, Chuck, Al, Tony, Terry and all the
other folks whom I've inadvertently overlooked for the (computer) time,
knowledge, hard- and software, documentation etc. etc that they've freely
donated and shared with the rest of our little community.
Thanks!!
m
----- Original Message ----- From: "Sean Caron" <scaron at umich.edu>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>; "Sean Caron" <scaron at umich.edu>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2015 7:33 PM
Subject: Re: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]
Wha? All I did was offer up some free space, bandwidth and static IPs when
various people expressed a need.
I didn't realize that Jay was the only person allowed to respond to those
kind of requests here so I'll say no more when such threads come up and
I'll leave it to him.
I don't understand why my just offering up some free hosting got Jay so
worked up where he needs to come in here and basically say, hey,
everything
you are running is a joke, waste of time... and, I mean, fine, you can
have
your own opinion of my home network, but I felt his messages ran deeper as
a personal attack against me and my level of skill as a professional
sysadmin.
If this list were running on my machines, the first thing I'd tell you is
that you don't owe me a darn thing for doing it.
I will leave if asked, after all, I guess it's Jay's sandbox.
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 5:47 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 14 Jan 2015, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
>
>
> What does *PLONK* mean? I keep seeing that here.
>>
>> It's the sound an email address makes when it strikes the inside of the
>>
> killfile. :)
>
> A killfile is a thing that holds email addresses. When an inbound email
> finds a match in the killfile, it's simply dropped on the floor and never
> delivered.
>
> g.
>
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>
>
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
It was written....
----
Look, I basically let this go yesterday night.
----
Apparently not.
----
All I did was (1) call out some specious hand-waving about how insecure Mediawiki is
----
As other listmembers pointed out, concerns about the security of Mediawiki are not
"specious hand-waving". There are real issues there that have to be addressed.
Not knowing that is probably considered by many to be "unusual".
-----
and my perceived implication in that statement that, by endorsing Mediawiki or
administering a Mediawiki I am not a security-conscious admin
-----
See above.
-----
I know I wasn't the only one who found it a little bit over the top. Jay had many
literary mechanisms available that he could have used to make his points; I found the ones
he selected in particular to be offensive.
-----
I doubt that. But If you found it offensive, I would have appreciated an email off-list
but I suspect you were more interested in public drama or concern that your
"geekdom" (affectionate term, not a slam) was being challenged.
----
it's well within his rights to ask me to leave or kick of me off (neither have
happened, so, hey, good sports, I guess).
----
Not yet anyways. This thread needs to die.
----
Last response from me regarding any of this nastiness from yesterday.
----
Yes, it is.
I would love to go into the reasons for the exact literary mechanisms I chose for my
initial post in detail, but I will not (I did however, send those to Sean off-list, and
will gladly share them with anyone who wishes - offlist). Most here that are long-timers
I'm sure were able to read between the lines and unfortunately you could not. Suffice
it to say that my post was based on custodial reasons, looking out for what was best for
the hobby as much as is possible/reasonable. You made it personal, and it was not. Again,
perhaps contacting the "offending" poster off-list to resolve amicably would
have been better than public drama.
Let's kill this thread please.
J
1:21 p.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM4341 and HP3000]]
PLONK ?
-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: "Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org>
Verzonden: ?15-?1-?2015 19:15
Aan: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Onderwerp: RE: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM4341 and
HP3000]]
It was written....
----
Look, I basically let this go yesterday night.
----
Apparently not.
----
All I did was (1) call out some specious hand-waving about how insecure Mediawiki is
----
As other listmembers pointed out, concerns about the security of Mediawiki are not
"specious hand-waving". There are real issues there that have to be addressed.
Not knowing that is probably considered by many to be "unusual".
-----
and my perceived implication in that statement that, by endorsing Mediawiki or
administering a Mediawiki I am not a security-conscious admin
-----
See above.
-----
I know I wasn't the only one who found it a little bit over the top. Jay had many
literary mechanisms available that he could have used to make his points; I found the ones
he selected in particular to be offensive.
-----
I doubt that. But If you found it offensive, I would have appreciated an email off-list
but I suspect you were more interested in public drama or concern that your
"geekdom" (affectionate term, not a slam) was being challenged.
----
it's well within his rights to ask me to leave or kick of me off (neither have
happened, so, hey, good sports, I guess).
----
Not yet anyways. This thread needs to die.
----
Last response from me regarding any of this nastiness from yesterday.
----
Yes, it is.
I would love to go into the reasons for the exact literary mechanisms I chose for my
initial post in detail, but I will not (I did however, send those to Sean off-list, and
will gladly share them with anyone who wishes - offlist). Most here that are long-timers
I'm sure were able to read between the lines and unfortunately you could not. Suffice
it to say that my post was based on custodial reasons, looking out for what was best for
the hobby as much as is possible/reasonable. You made it personal, and it was not. Again,
perhaps contacting the "offending" poster off-list to resolve amicably would
have been better than public drama.
Let's kill this thread please.
J
1:34 p.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
From: "Sean Caron" <scaron at umich.edu>
Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:23 AM
Subject: Re: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM
4341 and HP3000]]
You can read yourself all the threads and decide for
yourself, if they
were
being written to you, would you find them offensive?
No.
It is always *our* choice how to interpret and feel about things we read and
hear and whether to make the effort to understand rather than just react.
All Jay said is that his setup, collective experience etc. is perhaps more
suited to this sort of thing than yours but he welcomes you and anyone who
wants to add to the resources available to this community.
What does offend me is your Straw Man arguments and name calling; Jay a
"bully" ?
---
Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's
actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented
version of that position.
---
'nuff said.
m
11:28 a.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
What Jay said: [...]
And for newcomers he offered some background [...]
At least that's what I read; where did you read
anything like what
you're replying to below?
I have a suspicion I may have some idea what happened.
I don't for a moment think this is what Jay intended. But what he
wrote did strike me as being rather like "my server is bigger than your
server, so shut up" - that is to say, while I've been here long enough
to know that is (shall we say) extremely unlikely to be what Jay meant,
the text was rather like what would have resulted if that _had_ been
what he'd meant, and most of the differences were things Jay didn't
say. And a lot of people find it hard to notice unsaid things.
So, while Jay didn't outright say (and, I repeat, I don't believe he
meant) anything like any of
... "Jay's the only person allowed to
respond" ??
... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ??
... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ??
... "I will leave if asked" ??
I have no trouble seeing how someone new(ish) to the list could read
any or all of those as subtext below what Jay did write.
Where does this come from?
I don't know. I speculate that it comes from having been on the net
long enough to have run into plenty of cases of "well _my_ $THING is
$BETTER than _your_ $THING" (which are depressingly common) and
developed reflexive reactions to them, combined with not having been
here long enough to have learnt that that's not something Jay would
say. Or maybe even just having been tired or stressed enough to have
failed to suppress the reflexive reaction.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
11:34 a.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
You nailed it. Thank you for understanding.
Best,
Sean
On Thu, Jan 15, 2015 at 11:28 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
What Jay said:
[...]
And for newcomers he offered some background
[...]
At least that's what I read; where did you
read anything like what
you're replying to below?
I have a suspicion I may have some idea what happened.
I don't for a moment think this is what Jay intended. But what he
wrote did strike me as being rather like "my server is bigger than your
server, so shut up" - that is to say, while I've been here long enough
to know that is (shall we say) extremely unlikely to be what Jay meant,
the text was rather like what would have resulted if that _had_ been
what he'd meant, and most of the differences were things Jay didn't
say. And a lot of people find it hard to notice unsaid things.
So, while Jay didn't outright say (and, I repeat, I don't believe he
meant) anything like any of
... "Jay's the only person allowed to
respond" ??
... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ??
... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ??
... "I will leave if asked" ??
I have no trouble seeing how someone new(ish) to the list could read
any or all of those as subtext below what Jay did write.
Where does this come from?
I don't know. I speculate that it comes from having been on the net
long enough to have run into plenty of cases of "well _my_ $THING is
$BETTER than _your_ $THING" (which are depressingly common) and
developed reflexive reactions to them, combined with not having been
here long enough to have learnt that that's not something Jay would
say. Or maybe even just having been tired or stressed enough to have
failed to suppress the reflexive reaction.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
11:38 a.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
I have plenty of plastic cups if anybody wants to share the next box of plonk.
12:17 p.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015, Mouse wrote:
I think Mouse pretty much hit the nail on the here here.
Sean, MediaWiki hosting, specifically the server administration aspects,
tends to be an absolute nightmare. It is one of those things where the
maintenance of the underlying MediaWiki software is best left to a
dedicated hosting provider who is always going to be on top of all the
security patches (I'd also place something like WordPress in this category
for the same reasons). I've worked with MediaWiki extensively in the past,
including handling the server admin side of it, and it was a right pain in
the rear to deal with.
What Jay said:
[...]
And for newcomers he offered some background
[...]
At least that's what I read; where did you
read anything like what
you're replying to below?
I have a suspicion I may have some idea what happened.
I don't for a moment think this is what Jay intended. But what he
wrote did strike me as being rather like "my server is bigger than your
server, so shut up" - that is to say, while I've been here long enough
to know that is (shall we say) extremely unlikely to be what Jay meant,
the text was rather like what would have resulted if that _had_ been
what he'd meant, and most of the differences were things Jay didn't
say. And a lot of people find it hard to notice unsaid things.
So, while Jay didn't outright say (and, I repeat, I don't believe he
meant) anything like any of
... "Jay's the only person allowed to
respond" ??
... "everything you are running is a joke, waste of time" ??
... "personal attack against me and my level of skill" ??
... "I will leave if asked" ??
I have no trouble seeing how someone new(ish) to the list could read
any or all of those as subtext below what Jay did write.
Where does this come from?
I don't know. I speculate that it comes from having been on the net
long enough to have run into plenty of cases of "well _my_ $THING is
$BETTER than _your_ $THING" (which are depressingly common) and
developed reflexive reactions to them, combined with not having been
here long enough to have learnt that that's not something Jay would
say. Or maybe even just having been tired or stressed enough to have
failed to suppress the reflexive reaction. 
12:35 p.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
On 01/15/2015 12:18 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote:
On Jan 15, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at
concentric.net> wrote:
I'll just disagree. :) But let's let it drop here & now.
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
I think Mouse pretty much hit the nail on the
here here.
Bravo, Head, head!
:-)
- Mark
11:22 p.m.
New subject: Thin skins [Was: Restoration technique [Was: Re: Bay Area: IBM 4341 and HP3000]]
On Thu, 15 Jan 2015, Tapley, Mark wrote:
On Jan 15, 2015, at 11:17 AM, Tothwolf <tothwolf at
concentric.net> wrote:
Note to self: caffeine before spellcheck. :P
I think Mouse pretty much hit the nail on the
here here.
Bravo, Head, head!
:-)
14 Jan
14 Jan
4:50 p.m.
On 01/14/2015 04:40 PM, Jay West wrote:
Sean wrote....
----
You must be having a bad day? If the impression of these statements is to make people
think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite effect. I mean, using
your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist offering to help another hobbyist, wow,
impressive. If you really want to crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from
scratch and your staff, or even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it?
----
Someone is accusing ME of trying to blow away or crush a classic computer hobbyist?
That's just.... wow. You MUST be new here.
That's what I was thinking....
*PLONK*
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
4:56 p.m.
On 1/14/15 1:40 PM, Jay West wrote:
If the impression of these statements is to make
people think you're a big guy
Jay IS a big guy, and has spent a lot of his own resources doing things like supporting
compute and bandwidth requirements of bitsavers, which are non-trival, which I am grateful
for
after the original spies.com host downsized in the early '00s.
4:48 p.m.
On 01/14/2015 04:18 PM, Sean Caron wrote:
You must be having a bad day? If the impression of
these statements is to
make people think you're a big guy, I think they're having the opposite
effect. I mean, using your personal resources to blow away a hobbyist
offering to help another hobbyist, wow, impressive. If you really want to
crush it, why don't I set up a Mediawiki from scratch and your staff, or
even better, you personally can own me? Root shell. Up for it?
Best,
Sean
Sean, what is your beef? Jay is just trying to be a nice guy. And he
usually succeeds.
However, you are coming across as an a-hole.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:53 PM, Jay West <jwest at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
> Sean wrote...
> Please explain what significant system security issues you believe follow
> from hosting a MediaWiki? I wrangle many of them so I'm always interested
> in hearing criticism of the software.
> ------
>
> how about google "Mediawiki security vulnerabilities". Most anyone that
> even touches mediawiki in a cursory fashion is aware there are frequent
> issues with it.
>
> Better yet, go to CVE and see the current list of exploits?
>
> We do host hundreds of mediawiki sites, so we're up on the issues and how
> to prevent them. It helps to have a staff dedicated to this.
>
> J
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
3:18 p.m.
Someone wrote....
Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it
"wiki.classiccmp.org"?
To which AEK replied...
-----
There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd talk
to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one.
As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that
are not hosted by Jay.
-----
I own the domain, and no, there are no machines in that domain that I don't
host.
I will post to the list shortly re-iterating how to get free hosting for any
and all web content.
Best,
Jay
3:24 p.m.
Hey, if you want to monopolize hosting anything under *.classiccmp.org, I
assume that's your domain so that's certainly your right. Won't keep me
from offering my services to the public, though. Maybe
I could just
register a new domain, classcmpwiki.org or something and we could all
use
that.
Best,
Sean
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 3:18 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Someone wrote....
Why do we need a new domain name? Why not call it
"wiki.classiccmp.org"?
To which AEK replied...
-----
There are significant system security issues around hosting wikis. I'd talk
to Jay directly before suggesting classiccmp host one.
As far as I know, there are no machines in the classiccmp.org domain that
are not hosted by Jay.
-----
I own the domain, and no, there are no machines in that domain that I don't
host.
I will post to the list shortly re-iterating how to get free hosting for
any
and all web content.
Best,
Jay
4:01 p.m.
Sean wrote...
Hey, if you want to monopolize hosting anything under *.classiccmp.org, I assume
that's your domain so that's certainly your right. Won't keep me from offering
my services to the public, though. Maybe I could just register a new domain,
classcmpwiki.org or something and we could all use that.
------
O.O
Monopolizing my own domain? This is not a response I'd expect for a service I provide
gratis.
But regardless, you are certainly free to monopolize your domain, servers, and bandwidth.
Wish the sentiment was bidirectional.
But let me be clear... I fully support you offering (free) hosting services for vintage
computer stuff. I am glad there are people out there besides just me willing to host
classic computer related sites. I will also continue to offer commercial grade hosting to
any classic computer related website for free. I do think it's a nice benefit that
many of the classic computer related repositories (bitsavers, cpmarchive, trs80, etc) are
hosting on the classiccmp server where they are all backed up together and such.
J
4:16 p.m.
On Wed, Jan 14, 2015 at 2:01 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I will also continue to offer commercial grade hosting
to any classic computer related website for free. I do think it's a nice benefit that
many of the classic computer related repositories (bitsavers, cpmarchive, trs80, etc) are
hosting on the classiccmp server where they are all backed up together and such.
Yes it is! Thank you *very* much for providing so much support to the
community all these years!
3510
days inactive
3512
days old
34 comments
16 participants
participants (16)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
bqt＠update.uu.se -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
hp-fix＠xs4all.nl -
jacob.ritorto＠gmail.com -
jnc＠mercury.lcs.mit.edu -
js＠cimmeri.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
mhs.stein＠gmail.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
mtapley＠swri.edu -
scaron＠umich.edu -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
tothwolf＠concentric.net -
woyciesjes＠sbcglobal.net