Lyle Bickley, PDP-1 Restoration Team, CHM wrote: For the RLE PDP-1, restored to what condition would be another question... My understanding is that the machine evolved, with instruction changes, and multiple lights & switches "consoles". ISTR hearing that an MIT person was dismayed that all of that had been stripped away.... I saw the TX-0 when it was in the DEC Museum in Marlboro, when I worked in an adjoining building (MR1). I didn't understand it's significance back then. I understand it lost it's peripherals when MIT sold it (the purchaser only wanted the outboard hardware). I was glad to hear that it remained in Massachusetts (I was told it's in the Lincoln Labs library), but sad that it isn't on public display, nor in working order (it had been restored to working order once already). I guess I can hope someday for a CHM East. As of now, the best public collection(s) of DEC hardware in the area are in Rhode Island... Phil

On 12/4/14 4:25 PM, Eric Smith wrote: Correct. DEC's original prototype in funky light brown cabinet paint. http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102666958

I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact got smaller as it got older, and I did not). Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly changed the gameplan? Obviously at some tipping point ICs became cheaper and easier than analog components, in 1945 V2 weapon guidance has mechanical gyros, but 15 years later a Minuteman uses quad nand gate ICs. Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? I never had a relationship with a PDP-1, but I could generate similar nostalgia for the first commercial use of VHDL, for instance. Any idea where people like me go to live again my idea of the good old days? Thanks. Roy *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA On 12/9/2014 6:04 PM, Ian S. King wrote: The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address.

On 2014-Dec-10, at 2:25 PM, Jon Elson wrote: I was going to mention that too, when counting 15 years, but then, minuteman was using triple-nands a couple years later (D-37C), and quad nands were there by 1965, so 20 years from the V2. All of which kind of emphasizes Roy's point of disruptive technologies. So what are some candidates for the most-disruptive? One would be the electronic calculator, which utterly devastated the mechanical calculator business in just a few years. I also liken this sort of discussion to my own experience, as a kid in 1972 I would go from fixing a tube radio on Tuesday, to experimenting with 7400 TTL and 7-segment LED displays on Wednesday.

On 2014-Dec-10, at 4:00 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: Sure, me too, but at the time they were both (simultaneously) current technologies, one on the way out and one on the way in.

Actually, the DEC system modules used in the PDP-1 through the PDP-6 (I think?) were sort of a bad design. Expensive connectors, restricted airflow, and towards the end they grew too large and unwieldy. The Flip Chip was a huge improvement. The best circa 1960 packaging I have seen probably is in NLS test systems. Why they never jumped into the minicomputer business (or did they?) back then is beyond me, as they had all the puzzle pieces. -- Will

At 06:15 PM 12/10/2014, Fred Cisin wrote: I have never owned an NLS 'scope, but still own two functional Lunchboxes, though neither has been used for anything in the real world since 1991, when I needed a computer that could live on top of a mountain for a few weeks running a speech synthesizer, and I pressed the 4-84 into service for that purpose. Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640 http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 7:52 PM, Jon Elson <jonathanelson at email.wustl.edu> wrote: And yet in the late 1950s there weren't really any better logic modules commercially available. It's unsurprising that early modules weren't as good as later ones. For all of the PDP-1's faults that are obvious today with the benefit of hindsight, it was still quite an amazing product at its introduction in 1960, especially give its (then) low price.

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 9:05 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: I thought those were all captive to their vendors, not modules a customer could buy as a standalone and supported product (vs. e.g. service spares). Certainly that was the case for SMS.

On Dec 10, 2014 9:37 PM, "William Donzelli" <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: customer could My statement that you contradicted specifically said commercially available. Unless they were sold as a supported end-user product, no one in their right mind outside CDC would build anything other than maybe a one-off with them, no matter how much better they were. There were proprietary digital ICs before the standard MECL, RTL, DTL, and TTL families, too, but they didn't see wide adoption for the same reason. Engineers need to build products using supported components, not just stuff thst can be purchased as service spares.

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 3:34 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: Because the majority of the modules in the early PDPs *were* commercially available. DEC's original business was selling logic modules. I'm certainly willing to concede that some of the modules you cited may well have been commercially available also; I just was previously unaware of that fact. But certainly SMS modules were not offered as a product by IBM. Was CDC selling those modules in 1959, when the PDP-1 was designed?

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 5:21 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> wrote: In the absence of evidence of other commercially available logic modules that DEC could have used instead when designing the PDP-1 in 1959, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. Certainly the DEC System Modules weren't as good as things that came later, and obviously DEC recognized that, because they replaced them. If they didn't replace them as soon as you think they should have, presumably that's due to inertia; the reality was that both the System Modules and the products made from them sold pretty well.

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 5:55 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: True, the FET was patented in 1925, and it wasn't until the 1990s that it was proven to have been built. Amazing, considering an overall lack of knowledge of semiconductors; things like sodium and potassium really screw with silicon during fabrication. But surely he means he was born in 1934 and is celebrating his 80th. :) Kyle

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 6:25 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote: Pretty low. Processes with SiGe (BiCMOS, etc.) are keeping BJTs alive in the RF side of things, but are still overwhelmed by CMOS. Anyone still using ECL? I-squared L? Hmm... And yet nobody seems to know about Lilienfeld. He's about as obscure as Even Atanasoff was covered in my classes more than Lilienfeld... Kyle

I'd say he found the right list ;) J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Roy Hirst Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2014 3:30 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Seeking disruptive tech I just realized I am the same age as the transistor (though it in fact got smaller as it got older, and I did not). Does anyone know please of a forum (this one?) with interest in disruptive technology, i.e. components or processes that quickly changed the gameplan? Obviously at some tipping point ICs became cheaper and easier than analog components, in 1945 V2 weapon guidance has mechanical gyros, but 15 years later a Minuteman uses quad nand gate ICs. Behind DEC's PDP-1, funky light brown paint and all, is presumably some contemporary innovation in packaging or fab process? I never had a relationship with a PDP-1, but I could generate similar nostalgia for the first commercial use of VHDL, for instance. Any idea where people like me go to live again my idea of the good old days? Thanks. Roy *Roy Hirst* | 425-556-5773 | 425-324-0941 cell XKL LLC | 12020 113th Ave NE, Suite 100 | Kirkland, WA 98034 | USA On 12/9/2014 6:04 PM, Ian S. King wrote: The information contained in this e-mail message may be privileged, confidential and protected from disclosure. If you are not the intended recipient, any dissemination, distribution or copying is strictly prohibited. If you think that you have received this e-mail message in error, please e-mail the sender at the above e-mail address.