20 Jul
2016
20 Jul
'16
3:02 p.m.
Is there a minimum memory requirement for RT-11 v5? I was discussing with
Ray Fantini about it today, unsure...anyone know if 16K will work (from
000000).
Bill
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
24 Jul
24 Jul
5:58 a.m.
On Wednesday, July 20th, 2016 at 18:02:44 - 0400,
william degnan wrote:
Is there a minimum memory requirement for RT-11 v5? I
was discussing with
Ray Fantini about it today, unsure...anyone know if 16K will work (from
000000).
Bill
You need to be more specific! Starting with V05.00 of RT-11 in 1983,
there were a total of 17 versions released up to V05.07 in 1998, including
sub-versions V05.01B, V05.01C, and V05.04A to V05.04G of RT-11.
Up until V05.05 of RT-11, RT11SJ.SYS required the least memory which
was replaced with RT11SB.SYS for V05.06 and V05.07 of RT-11.
Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V05.00 of RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were unsuccessful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive since
it is close to the smallest device driver. The answer to your question
about
using 16K bytes of memory is NO for all versions of RT-11 starting with
V05.00 or RT-11.
Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were also successful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive. The
error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work
might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not
ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria?
NOTE that I used the Ersatz-11 emulator to check the above details,
so there might be a difference with actual hardware.
If you have any more questions, please ask.
Jerome Fine
8:06 a.m.
On Jul 24, 2016 8:58 AM, "Jerome H. Fine" <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to>
wrote:
with
about
On Wednesday, July 20th, 2016 at 18:02:44 - 0400,
william degnan wrote:
> Is there a minimum memory requirement for RT-11 v5? I was discussing Ray Fantini
about it today, unsure...anyone know if 16K will work (from
000000).
Bill
You need to be more specific! Starting with V05.00 of RT-11 in 1983,
there were a total of 17 versions released up to V05.07 in 1998, including
sub-versions V05.01B, V05.01C, and V05.04A to V05.04G of RT-11.
Up until V05.05 of RT-11, RT11SJ.SYS required the least memory which
was replaced with RT11SB.SYS for V05.06 and V05.07 of RT-11.
Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V05.00 of RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were unsuccessful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive since
it is close to the smallest device driver. The answer to your question using 16K bytes of memory is NO for all versions of
RT-11 starting with
V05.00 or RT-11.
Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were also successful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive. The
error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work
might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not
ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria?
NOTE that I used the Ersatz-11 emulator to check the above details,
so there might be a difference with actual hardware.
If you have any more questions, please ask.
Jerome Fine
Thanks for the details. I had been trying to boot rt-11 v5.3 on a 16k core
11/40 using RL11 (rl02) and it did not work. The system was unable to
complete the initialization. CPU diagnostics passed, I could load BASIC
papertape. RL11 working correctly. In this context I posted my question.
After I posted my message here I loaded up simh and emulated an 11 with
32k. RT-11 v5.3 disk boots. When I re-built the system and reduced to
16k, I could not boot, bombed.
One thing to remember is 16KW in a pdp11 is not the same thing that simh
refers to when one sets the CPU to 16K. WWW do not all make this
distinction clearly. I get it, just making this comment for future readers
of this thread.
Bill
9:01 a.m.
On 7/24/2016 10:06 AM, william degnan
wrote:
...
One thing to remember is 16KW in a pdp11 is not the same thing that simh
refers to when one sets the CPU to 16K. WWW do not all make this
distinction clearly. I get it, just making this comment for future readers
of this thread.
Bill
What is the distinction?
- J.
2:29 p.m.
On 7/24/2016 8:06 AM, william degnan wrote:
On Jul 24, 2016 8:58 AM, "Jerome H. Fine"
<jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
Thanks for the details. I had been trying to boot rt-11 v5.3 on a 16k
core
11/40 using RL11 (rl02) and it did not work. The system was unable to
complete the initialization. CPU diagnostics passed, I could load BASIC
papertape. RL11 working correctly. In this context I posted my question.
After I posted my message here I loaded up simh and emulated an 11 with
32k. RT-11 v5.3 disk boots. When I re-built the system and reduced to
16k, I could not boot, bombed.
One thing to remember is 16KW in a pdp11 is not the same thing that simh
refers to when one sets the CPU to 16K. WWW do not all make this
distinction clearly. I get it, just making this comment for future readers
of this thread.
Bill
RT-11 v5.03 single job monitor boots fine and runs in just 32KB (16KW) of memory.
You need to be more specific about how you specify the memory configuration
(words vs bytes).
DEC routinely specified everything in KW (words) but most users and tools use KB
(bytes) nowadays.
Note that to force RT11SJ (vs RT11FB) to boot on the below image I booted first
using FB
in a larger memory configuration, did a:
COPY/BOOT DL1:RT11SJ.SYS DL1:
to force it to boot using the SJ monitor the next time.
Don
PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 4065f47f
CPU 11/34, FPP, idle disabled, autoconfiguration enabled
32KB
NOTE: ctrl-E to exit to SIMH monitor
sim> boot rl1
RT-11SJ (S) V05.03
.sho all
RT-11SJ (S) V05.03
Booted from DL1:RT11SJ
USR is set SWAP
EXIT is set SWAP
KMON is set NOIND
TT is set NOQUIET
ERROR is set ERROR
SL is set OFF
EDIT is set KED
KMON nesting depth is 3
PDP 11/34 Processor
32KB of memory
FP11 Hardware Floating Point Unit
Extended Instruction Set (EIS)
Memory Management Unit
60 Cycle System Clock
> On Wednesday, July 20th, 2016 at 18:02:44 -
0400, william degnan wrote:
> Is there a minimum memory requirement for RT-11 v5? I was discussing
with
Ray
Fantini about it today, unsure...anyone know if 16K will work (from
000000).
Bill
You need to be more specific! Starting with V05.00 of RT-11 in 1983,
there were a total of 17 versions released up to V05.07 in 1998, including
sub-versions V05.01B, V05.01C, and V05.04A to V05.04G of RT-11.
Up until V05.05 of RT-11, RT11SJ.SYS required the least memory which
was replaced with RT11SB.SYS for V05.06 and V05.07 of RT-11.
Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V05.00 of RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were unsuccessful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive since
it is close to the smallest device driver. The answer to your question
about using 16K bytes of memory is NO for all versions of RT-11 starting with
V05.00 or RT-11.
Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were also successful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive. The
error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work
might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not
ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria?
NOTE that I used the Ersatz-11 emulator to check the above details,
so there might be a difference with actual hardware.
If you have any more questions, please ask.
Jerome Fine 
2:37 p.m.
On Jul 24, 2016, at 11:06 AM, william degnan
<billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of RT-11 with 24K
> bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
> memory were also successful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive. The
> error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work
> might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not
> ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria?
FWIW, I used to run RT11SJ on an 11/20 with 8 kW (16 kB) of memory and RC11 system disk,
in college. That fit with no trouble, enough room to run RT BASIC and a reasonably
application program.
paul
10:17 p.m.
On 7/24/2016 2:37 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
And it still works today:
PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 4065f47f
sim> set cpu 11/05 16k
sim> sho cpu
CPU 11/05, idle disabled, autoconfiguration enabled
16KB
sim> att rk0 rt11.dsk
sim> boot rk0
RT-11SJ V02C-02
.
.R PIP
*/L
DTMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
DTMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
RK .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
RF .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
TT .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
LP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
BA .SYS 7 27-NOV-75
SYSMAC.SML 18 27-NOV-75
SYSMAC.8K 25 27-NOV-75
BATCH .SAV 25 27-NOV-75
EDIT .SAV 19 27-NOV-75
MACRO .SAV 31 27-NOV-75
ASEMBL.SAV 21 27-NOV-75
EXPAND.SAV 12 27-NOV-75
CREF .SAV 5 27-NOV-75
LINK .SAV 25 27-NOV-75
PIP .SAV 14 27-NOV-75
PATCH .SAV 5 27-NOV-75
ODT .OBJ 9 27-NOV-75
VTHDLR.OBJ 8 27-NOV-75
DEMOFG.MAC 5 27-NOV-75
DEMOBG.MAC 4 27-NOV-75
KB .MAC 33 27-NOV-75
LIBR .SAV 15 27-NOV-75
MONITR.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
RKMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
RFMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
RFMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DPMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
DPMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DXMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
DXMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DT .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
DX .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
CR .SYS 3 27-NOV-75
MT .SYS 6 27-NOV-75
MM .SYS 6 27-NOV-75
PR .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
PP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
CT .SYS 5 27-NOV-75
DS .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
FILEX .SAV 11 27-NOV-75
SRCCOM.SAV 11 27-NOV-75
DUMP .SAV 5 27-NOV-75
PATCHO.SAV 33 27-NOV-75
VTMAC .MAC 7 27-NOV-75
SYSF4 .OBJ 33 27-NOV-75
BASIC .SAV 36
BAS8K .SAV 34
DEMO .BAS 3
51 FILES, 1014 BLOCKS
3760 FREE BLOCKS
*
.
.R BAS8K
BASIC V01B-02
*
READY
OLD
OLD FILE NAME--DEMO
READY
LIST
DEMO BASIC V01B-02
10 REM BASIC PROGRAM TO GENERATE N TERMS OF A FIBONACCI SERIES,
20 REM THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF WHICH ARE SPECIFIED BY THE USER.
30 REM
40 REM PRINT IDENTIFYING MESSAGE
50 PRINT "PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES"
60 REM
70 REM GET THE LENGTH AND FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES
80 PRINT "HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED";
90 INPUT L
100 IF L<>0 THEN 130
110 REM IF HE REQUESTS 0 TERMS,TERMINATE EXECUTION
120 STOP
130 PRINT "WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM";
140 INPUT T1
150 PRINT "WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM";
160 INPUT T2
170 REM MAKE SURE L IS NOT NEGATIVE OR TOO LARGE
180 IF L<3 THEN 200
190 IF L<50 THEN 220
200 PRINT L;"TERMS DOES NOT REALLY MAKE SENSE."
210 GO TO 80
220 REM PRINT THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES
230 PRINT "THE REQUESTED SERIES IS"
240 PRINT T1
250 PRINT T2
260 L=L-2
270 REM CALCULATE NEXT TERM AND PRINT IT
280 N=T1+T2
290 T1=T2
300 T2=N
310 PRINT N
320 REM DETERMINE IF SERIES IS FINISHED. IF SO,DO NEXT ONE.
330 L=L-1
340 IF L<=0 THEN 80
350 GO TO 280
360 END
READY
RUN
DEMO BASIC V01B-02
PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES
HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?4
WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM?12
WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM?5
THE REQUESTED SERIES IS
12
5
17
22
HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?0
STOP AT LINE 120
READY
On Jul 24,
2016, at 11:06 AM, william degnan <billdegnan at gmail.com> wrote:
> ...
> Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of RT-11 with 24K
> bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
> memory were also successful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive. The
> error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work
> might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not
> ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria?
FWIW, I used to run
RT11SJ on an 11/20 with 8 kW (16 kB) of memory and RC11 system disk, in college. That fit
with no trouble, enough room to run RT BASIC and a reasonably application program.
paul
25 Jul
25 Jul
1:34 p.m.
Is there a place where one can get RT11 disks for RL02? I only have rt-11
5.3 and even with 64K I can't get my system to boot. Everything so far
checks out, I am at a loss to determine the cause of the problem. In simh
I can boot 5.3 on a PDP 11/20 emulated with 32K. It must be my system but
I don't know what's wrong. Diagnostics don't fail, or I can't get
anything
clearly wrong. I can load in programs from papertape just fine.
Bill
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 1:17 AM, Don North <north at alum.mit.edu> wrote:
On 7/24/2016 2:37 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg <https://twitter.com/billdeg>
Youtube: @billdeg <https://www.youtube.com/user/billdeg>
Unauthorized Bio <http://www.vintagecomputer.net/readme.cfm>
On Jul 24, 2016, at 11:06 AM, william degnan
<billdegnan at gmail.com>
PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 4065f47f
sim> set cpu 11/05 16k
sim> sho cpu
CPU 11/05, idle disabled, autoconfiguration enabled
16KB
sim> att rk0 rt11.dsk
sim> boot rk0
RT-11SJ V02C-02
.
.R PIP
*/L
DTMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
DTMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
RK .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
RF .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
TT .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
LP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
BA .SYS 7 27-NOV-75
SYSMAC.SML 18 27-NOV-75
SYSMAC.8K 25 27-NOV-75
BATCH .SAV 25 27-NOV-75
EDIT .SAV 19 27-NOV-75
MACRO .SAV 31 27-NOV-75
ASEMBL.SAV 21 27-NOV-75
EXPAND.SAV 12 27-NOV-75
CREF .SAV 5 27-NOV-75
LINK .SAV 25 27-NOV-75
PIP .SAV 14 27-NOV-75
PATCH .SAV 5 27-NOV-75
ODT .OBJ 9 27-NOV-75
VTHDLR.OBJ 8 27-NOV-75
DEMOFG.MAC 5 27-NOV-75
DEMOBG.MAC 4 27-NOV-75
KB .MAC 33 27-NOV-75
LIBR .SAV 15 27-NOV-75
MONITR.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
RKMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
RFMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
RFMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DPMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
DPMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DXMNSJ.SYS 46 27-NOV-75
DXMNFB.SYS 58 27-NOV-75
DT .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
DX .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
CR .SYS 3 27-NOV-75
MT .SYS 6 27-NOV-75
MM .SYS 6 27-NOV-75
PR .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
PP .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
CT .SYS 5 27-NOV-75
DS .SYS 2 27-NOV-75
FILEX .SAV 11 27-NOV-75
SRCCOM.SAV 11 27-NOV-75
DUMP .SAV 5 27-NOV-75
PATCHO.SAV 33 27-NOV-75
VTMAC .MAC 7 27-NOV-75
SYSF4 .OBJ 33 27-NOV-75
BASIC .SAV 36
BAS8K .SAV 34
DEMO .BAS 3
51 FILES, 1014 BLOCKS
3760 FREE BLOCKS
*
.
.R BAS8K
BASIC V01B-02
*
READY
OLD
OLD FILE NAME--DEMO
READY
LIST
DEMO BASIC V01B-02
10 REM BASIC PROGRAM TO GENERATE N TERMS OF A FIBONACCI SERIES,
20 REM THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF WHICH ARE SPECIFIED BY THE USER.
30 REM
40 REM PRINT IDENTIFYING MESSAGE
50 PRINT "PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES"
60 REM
70 REM GET THE LENGTH AND FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES
80 PRINT "HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED";
90 INPUT L
100 IF L<>0 THEN 130
110 REM IF HE REQUESTS 0 TERMS,TERMINATE EXECUTION
120 STOP
130 PRINT "WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM";
140 INPUT T1
150 PRINT "WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM";
160 INPUT T2
170 REM MAKE SURE L IS NOT NEGATIVE OR TOO LARGE
180 IF L<3 THEN 200
190 IF L<50 THEN 220
200 PRINT L;"TERMS DOES NOT REALLY MAKE SENSE."
210 GO TO 80
220 REM PRINT THE FIRST TWO TERMS OF THE SERIES
230 PRINT "THE REQUESTED SERIES IS"
240 PRINT T1
250 PRINT T2
260 L=L-2
270 REM CALCULATE NEXT TERM AND PRINT IT
280 N=T1+T2
290 T1=T2
300 T2=N
310 PRINT N
320 REM DETERMINE IF SERIES IS FINISHED. IF SO,DO NEXT ONE.
330 L=L-1
340 IF L<=0 THEN 80
350 GO TO 280
360 END
READY
RUN
DEMO BASIC V01B-02
PROGRAM TO GENERATE A FIBONACCI SERIES
HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?4
WHAT IS THE FIRST TERM?12
WHAT IS THE SECOND TERM?5
THE REQUESTED SERIES IS
12
5
17
22
HOW MANY TERMS DO YOU WANT GENERATED?0
STOP AT LINE 120
READY
wrote:
...
RC11
system disk, in college. That fit with no trouble, enough room to run
RT BASIC and a reasonably application program.
paul
And it still works today: Attempts to boot from RT11SJ.SYS under V04.00 of
RT-11 with 24K
bytes of memory were successful. Attempts to boot with 16K bytes of
memory were also successful. An RK05 was used as the disk drive. The
error message "Insufficient memory" is displayed, but some useful work
might be done with just 16K bytes of memory. However, you did not
ask if useful work being done was one of the criteria?
FWIW, I used to run RT11SJ on an 11/20 with 8 kW (16 kB) of memory and 
3:31 p.m.
WillD wrote...
------
Is there a place where one can get RT11 disks for RL02?
------
Aren't one of these RL02 under RT11/dists? http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/
J
6:21 p.m.
On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 6:31 PM, Jay West <jwest at classiccmp.org> wrote:
WillD wrote...
------
Is there a place where one can get RT11 disks for RL02?
------
Aren't one of these RL02 under RT11/dists?
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/
J
Thanks Jay. I can use PDPGUI...assuming my system can build a disk on its
own..to try an earlier version of RT-11. Or build a XXDP.
Bill
26 Jul
26 Jul
9:34 a.m.
From: "william degnan" <billdegnan at
gmail.com>
Subject: Re: memory map for RT-11 v 5
Is there a place where one can get RT11 disks for RL02? I only have rt-11
5.3 and even with 64K I can't get my system to boot. Everything so far
checks out, I am at a loss to determine the cause of the problem. In simh
I can boot 5.3 on a PDP 11/20 emulated with 32K. It must be my system but
I don't know what's wrong. Diagnostics don't fail, or I can't get
anything
clearly wrong. I can load in programs from papertape just fine.
Bill
Bill,
Check out:
the PDF:
http://fafner.dyndns.org/~heuberger/DE0RLV34/README.pdf
and the actual file:
http://fafner.dyndns.org/~heuberger/DE0RLV34/DE0_RL02_SIMULATOR_V304.zip
From the PDF:
(in folder)
my_Infos
Information about the Hardware, schematics , PIN assignment, chip specifications and
informations related to the RL01/RL02 disk drive, like RL01/RL02 technical manuel. You
also
will find the file: RL02_0.DEC ( 11,2 MB (11.796.992 Bytes ) . This file is a RL02 image
and
contains a bootable RT-11XM (S) V05.04 C system with MACRO-11, FORTRAN and
RT-11 BASIC. Copy this file to a FAT32 formated SD-Card and you can boot RT-11 .
Cheers
alex
2853
days inactive
2859
days old
10 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
-
alex_dumitru＠telus.net -
billdegnan＠gmail.com -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
js＠cimmeri.com -
jwest＠classiccmp.org -
north＠alum.mit.edu -
paulkoning＠comcast.net