1 Aug
2010
1 Aug
'10
11:12 a.m.
Depends.
I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original.
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
What is worth more, an Apple I motherboard with all
original chips but maybe
non functional, and an Apple I motherboard that has been reworked to
function with later date coded chips and other parts. I would bet it is the
all original unit, and few if any collectors would even try to turn it on
anyway.
----- Original Message -----
From: "A. C. Baumann" <feedle at feedle.net>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, July 31, 2010 11:06 AM
Subject: Re: retr0brite not so right?
It is sensible to me that limited modification to maintain an operational
state wouldn't affect the collectible value much, especially compared to
"not working at all."
1 Aug
1 Aug
2:15 p.m.
[Apple 1, or other rare machines]
Depends.
I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original.
I probably wouldn't, but the first thing I would do with broken original
is lower its value (?) bu repairing it. Of course I would use parts as
close to the original as I could, and I would document the repairs. But,
yes, I woudl take a soldering iron to it to get it working again.
While I don;t have an Apple 1 (and don't _pariticuarly_ want one [1]). I
have 1 or 2 machines that are considerably rarer. And yes, I've replaced
chips in those where necessary.
[1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it with thanks. And I
would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult,
since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1.
There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting.
-tony
2 Aug
2 Aug
11:22 a.m.
On 01/08/10 19:15, Tony Duell wrote:
(re: Apple 1)
[1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept it
with thanks. And I
would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult,
since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1.
There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting.
Same here. If I won the lottery I'd be building up a half-decent home
machine shop...
My interest is in the old single-board and embedded machines. I'm not
too interested in the Apple I, but I do find (for example) the Acorn
System series, Elektor Junior, Synertek Sym-1, MOS KIM-1 and Rockwell
AIM-65 interesting. Not interesting enough to pay the stupid money
they're selling for on Ebay, but interesting enough that I might spend a
few evenings entering the design into Quartus and doing an FPGA
re-implementation, or building a clone on Veroboard.
(But of course if someone offered to sell me one of the above for what I
thought was a 'reasonable price', I wouldn't say no, even if I had to
spend a month of weekends doing debugging and component-level repair work)
Exceptions would be the Apple II and Acorn BBC Micro. The AII on the
grounds that I think it's neat how the parts count was pushed so low
(especially on things like the disc controller) and the Acorn because it
was pretty much the first "real" computer I used...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
2:36 p.m.
On 01/08/10 19:15, Tony Duell wrote:
(re: Apple 1)
Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the Apple 1 would not be
high up the list :-). Certain HP models (not particularly rare [1]) would
be...
[1] Amazingly, for all I have a fair number of HP machines, I have never
managed to obtain an HP1000 of any version, for ecample...
[1] OK, if somebody gave me one, I would accept
it with thanks. And I
would look after it. But if I won the lottery or something (difficult,
since I don't enter :-)), I would not spend the money on an Apple 1.
There are many other classic computers I would find more interesting.
Same here. If I won the lottery I'd be building up a half-decent home
machine shop... My interest is in the old single-board and embedded
machines. I'm not
too interested in the Apple I, but I do find (for example) the Acorn
Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-)
Exceptions would be the Apple II and Acorn BBC Micro.
The AII on the
grounds that I think it's neat how the parts count was pushed so low
(especially on things like the disc controller) and the Acorn because it
was pretty much the first "real" computer I used...
Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I regard the Apple ][ as
one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count
(IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better). But I feel the
BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very
elegant design...
-tony
3 Aug
3 Aug
9:31 a.m.
New subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection
I was trying to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is rather
impressive.
This guy has a rather impressive CPU collection.
http://englishrussia.com/index.php/2010/07/28/humble-cpus-collection-of-a-r…
9:34 a.m.
New subject: Aug 3 1977 The TRS-80 was launched.
10:39 a.m.
New subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection
I was trying
to think of a "In Russia" joke, but this guys collection is
rather impressive.
In Soviet Russia, CPU's collect YOU? 
11:20 a.m.
New subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection
In article <201008031439.o73Ed54k008004 at floodgap.com>,
Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> writes:
In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU!
(Get it? CPU registers?)
Anyone on this list that doesn't get it without your parenthetical
remark should humbly unsubscribe from this list.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
11:28 a.m.
New subject: In Russia.. Ah forget it.. Impressive CPU collection
On 03/08/10 15:39, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
In Soviet Russia, CPU registers YOU!
*groan*
Cameron, that was awful. Go hang your head in shame...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
4:47 p.m.
On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote:
Even if I had to spend it on classic computers, the
Apple 1 would not be
high up the list :-).
Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. But
given that I've talked to a couple of people who said "yeah, I've got
loads of those in a warehouse, you can have one" and then dropped off
the face of the earth... I'm not hopeful.
Actually at this point I'd settle for getting my Jupiter Ace motherboard
back from Lee Davison. Again, chance close to nil. Even getting a bare
Ace PCB or a broken Ace to fix would be nice... I'd build up the bare
PCB on the grounds that:
- It'll be a fun evening's work
- I know other people have bare PCBs and that they're not "one-off"
rare (AIUI a box of them was sold off when Jupiter Cantab went bust)
- As a bare board, it's as useful and as entertaining as a brick.
Build it up and it becomes a whole lot more interesting.
Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-)
Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer
trainer" type thing).
Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think. I
regard the Apple ][ as
one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count
(IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better).
In some ways it is a completely evil design. Reverse engineering it is
diabolically hard, and I think some parts of the design must have been
conceived by a madman or a masochist. But getting the parts count down
that far? Cool.
But I feel the
BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very
elegant design...
The BBC is a lovely design. From an expandability point of view alone
it's something that -- even today -- is worth keeping on or near an
electronics workbench with a User-Port-to-breadboard cable. And if you
need a few more I/Os, there's always the 1MHz Bus.
They make terrific logic pattern generators, the BASIC has full floating
point and a good range of math operators (I don't have a full list to
hand, but IIRC it at least has sine, cosine and tangent, and possible
arc-tangent as well) and the machine itself is built like a Chieftain
tank. Plus if something goes wrong, it's all LSTTL or easily obtainable
parts (aside from a ULA or two and possibly the SAA5050).
If you had to, then there's almost certainly enough documentation
(reverse engineered and otherwise) to rebuild a BBC Micro video or
serial ULA. Keeping the machine running wouldn't be a problem...
Well, as long as you had a supply of spare 100nF X2 capacitors for the
power supply filter. Those go pop at an alarming rate, and have a rotten
tendency of caking the innards of the machine with brown ichor when they do.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
11:52 p.m.
From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote:
Hi
I've got all three. I even have one of the KTM-2 terminal boards
for the SYM-1 and a disk board called FDC-1 ( a common name ).
I've been meaning to put the bunch together to make a
system.
I've got a Jupiter Ace as well with the US video scan rate ( slower
processor speed as well ).
Dwight
Even if I had to spend it on classic computers,
the Apple 1 would not be
high up the list :-).
Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65.
4 Aug
4 Aug
1:54 p.m.
On 02/08/10 19:36, Tony Duell wrote:
Als I know the feeling. I've missed out on 3 HP1000s and an Acorn A680
due to similar occurances. Oh well, life goes on...
Even if I had to spend it on classic computers,
the Apple 1 would not be
high up the list :-).
Agreed. As I've said, I'd rather like a SYM-1, KIM-1 or AIM-65. But
given that I've talked to a couple of people who said "yeah, I've got
loads of those in a warehouse, you can have one" and then dropped off
the face of the earth... I'm not hopeful.
Actually at this point I'd settle for getting my Jupiter Ace motherboard
back from Lee Davison. Again, chance close to nil. Even getting a bare
Ace PCB or a broken Ace to fix would be nice... I'd build up the bare
Alas I only have one Ace, and I am keeping it :-).
PCB on the grounds that:
- It'll be a fun evening's work
Well, if you like fitting 1k resisotrs... In case you don;t know, the Ace
has a vile 'myltiplexer' circuit consisting of a totem pole TTL output
(say from a counter) warkened by having a 1k resistor in series
contending with a 3-state output (say on an address buffer). That's how
it allows both the video counter chain and the CPU to access video RAM.
The Ace claimed ot hgave 3K of RAM. While there are, indeed, 6 off 2114s
onthe PCB,it's 1K of program/data RAM, 1K of video RAM, and 1K of
character generator (there is no character generator ROM, the character
generator RAM is loaded from the system ROM at power-up). Calling that a
3L machine is somewhat dishonest...
- I know other people have bare PCBs and that
they're not "one-off"
rare (AIUI a box of them was sold off when Jupiter Cantab went bust)
As I understood it, the stuff all went to a company called 'Boldfield
Limited Computing',sho then sold it on (including complete, working Aces,
that's where mine came from). A bit later, the remains were sold off at
low prices. I sitll have a few games tapes somewhere. What I don't have
is a bare PCB...
- As a bare board, it's as useful and as
entertaining as a brick.
Build it up and it becomes a whole lot more interesting.
Err, of course. What else would you do with a bare Ace PCB?
Err, the Apple 1 is a single-board machine :-)
Yes, but not the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer
trainer" type thing) Hmm, we will ahve to agree to disagree, I think.
I regard the Apple ][ as
one of the worst designs ever because it's such a minimal parts count
(IMHO a few more chips would ahve made it a lot better).
In some ways it is a completely evil design. Reverse engineering it is
diabolically hard, and I think some parts of the design must have been
conceived by a madman or a masochist. But getting the parts count down
that far? Cool. But I feel the
BBC Micro is one of the best (if not _the_ best) 8 bitters. A very
elegant design...
The BBC is a lovely design. From an expandability point of view alone
it's something that -- even today -- is worth keeping on or near an
electronics workbench with a User-Port-to-breadboard cable. And if you
need a few more I/Os, there's always the 1MHz Bus.
They make terrific logic pattern generators, the BASIC has full floating
point and a good range of math operators (I don't have a full list to
hand, but IIRC it at least has sine, cosine and tangent, and possible
arc-tangent as well) and the machine itself is built like a Chieftain
ATN is certainly there... I would have to grab the (excellent) user guide
to look for all the others. But for what I do, the built-in assembler is
more useufl, actually...
tank. Plus if something goes wrong, it's all LSTTL
or easily obtainable
parts (aside from a ULA or two and possibly the SAA5050).
Indeed... And schematics are trivial to get. It's a very nice machine to
work on...
Well, as long as you had a supply of spare 100nF X2 capacitors for the
power supply filter. Those go pop at an alarming rate, and have a rotten
tendency of caking the innards of the machine with brown ichor when they do.
Ah, the anitsocial capacitor problem. I've never seen it in a Beeb (but
then the Beeb I use most is the ACW whiohc has a totaly different PSU),
but I've seen it often enough in other machines. I rememebr when I was
sorting out myu HP981, I left the monitor on and poweed down the CPU box
to correct something. A few minotues later (by chance, as it turned out),
the monitor went bang and emitted magic smoke. My instnat thought was a
problem in the horizontal output stage. I powered down at once and
removed the casing (non-trivial on that monitor...) and was relieved to
find the only fault was that one of the filter capacitors had exploded
(metalised foil hanging out of the side). Of course I replaced the lot...
-tony
8:06 p.m.
On 04/08/10 18:54, Tony Duell wrote:
A ROM monitor instead of BASIC, and an edge-connector with all the bus
lines on it :)
Although the AIM65 bucks that trend; AIUI it has a built in ROM BASIC
*and* the monitor, and the Multitech Micro-Professor certainly had a
BASIC ROM available.
Als I know the feeling. I've missed out on 3
HP1000s and an Acorn A680
due to similar occurances. Oh well, life goes on...
A680... that's the RISC iX box, isn't it??
Alas I only have one Ace, and I am keeping it :-).
Adrian Graham (witchy) sent me some hi-res scans of the PCB ages ago.
I've been meaning to make a PCB from them, but I need to look into ways
to get a good B/W image of the track layout. Thresholding the image
doesn't quite work...
Well, if you like fitting 1k resisotrs... In case you
don;t know, the Ace
has a vile 'myltiplexer' circuit consisting of a totem pole TTL output
(say from a counter) warkened by having a 1k resistor in series
contending with a 3-state output (say on an address buffer). That's how
it allows both the video counter chain and the CPU to access video RAM.
Ugh, nasty.
Err, of course. What else would you do with a bare Ace
PCB?
Some people (not me) would frame it and put it on the wall......
Yes, but not
the sort of machine I was thinking of (a "microcomputer
trainer" type thing)
I actually wonder what the real difference is... No, I disagree. I have never been a great lover of
minimal parts count
designs. For me, the more hardware. the merrier :-)
There's a breaking point though. When I'm programming PLDs, I generally
don't give a hoot how big the logic equation set becomes (as long as it
fits into the PLD).
If I'm wiring up hardware, the "must fit on a Roth Elektronik
Eurocard-size padboard" rule applies. I try to avoid straddling projects
across multiple pad-boards; my 6502 card can boot standalone, but it's
not much use without the UART or some form of hex keyboard and display
(TIL311 to the rescue!).
[BBC micro]
ATN is certainly there... I would have to grab the
(excellent) user guide
to look for all the others. But for what I do, the built-in assembler is
more useufl, actually...
Another point I missed :)
Indeed... And schematics are trivial to get. It's
a very nice machine to
work on...
"Google is your friend" :)
Ah, the anitsocial capacitor problem. I've never
seen it in a Beeb (but
then the Beeb I use most is the ACW whiohc has a totaly different PSU),
I had it in my Master 128 (it filled the room with smoke) and in a
Solartron 7150Plus 6-digit bench DMM. The filter module in the 7150
actually caught fire (!) and I called the company and asked if they knew
why it might do that, and if they had any distributors who'd sell 1-offs
(RS wanted ?49 and in any case were downright rude last time I tried to
place an order with them).
Their response: "We'll send you another filter module."
The 7150+ is still in service -- I've got a full service manual, but
$DEITY help me if the Hitachi 68B03 mask-ROM micro on the analog board
jacks it. Mask ROM and it's soldered to the board. Ewwww. If it wasn't
soldered down I'd stick it in a breadboard and dump its contents to
disc... (it has a 'test mode' which maps an external EPROM into the
reset vector, and moves the internal ROM higher up in the memory map)
the monitor went bang and emitted magic smoke. My
instnat thought was a
problem in the horizontal output stage. I powered down at once and
removed the casing (non-trivial on that monitor...) and was relieved to
find the only fault was that one of the filter capacitors had exploded
(metalised foil hanging out of the side). Of course I replaced the lot...
One of the few occasions when shotgun replacement is justified.
The other one is when you've got a machine on the bench which is showing
symptoms of Capacitor Plague. In that case I'd sketch out part locations
(and locations/values of nearby parts), remove the old parts, and give
the surrounding area a good soak in flux remover (or IPA) and a decent
scrub. Maybe a trip in the dishwasher if it was particularly mucky...
Then the new parts go in, and any track breaks are repaired.
At least the hot-air gun makes it (reasonably) easy to remove the SMDs.
A pre-heater would make it even easier, but unfortunately the budget
won't stretch that far at the moment...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
9 Aug
9 Aug
9:28 a.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
9:35 a.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
That's one of the real ones. Wow. For those who don't know,
http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/remix.html
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Our policy is, when in doubt, do the right thing. -- R. L. Ash -------------
9:52 a.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold paint spray job, is
there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures
of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more
then a C64 with some spray paint?
I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is
anything that truly sets it apart.
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
That's one of the real ones. Wow. For those who don't know,
http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/ckb/secret/remix.html
9:55 a.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold
paint spray job, is
there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures
of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more
then a C64 with some spray paint?
I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is
anything that truly sets it apart.
Nothing particularly otherwise. They are simply hand marked, and the unit
is dipped in gold paint (this comes from Jim Butterfield). Just a purely
historical commemorative item.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The whippings shall continue until morale improves. ------------------------
9:58 a.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold
paint spray job, is there
anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the
engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with
some spray paint?
I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is
anything that truly sets it apart.
Afaik, it commemorates(sp) the 1,000,000th C-64 off the production line in
Germany. Isn't that unique enough for you? There weren't many of those
plaques made.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
12:34 p.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
But according to the historic info, it's NOT actually the 1millionth off the line,
they missed it, and grabbed one at random.
so much less interesting in that case
Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 06:58:44 -0700
From: geneb at deltasoft.com
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: The gold C64 on ebay??
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Besides what looks like a really cheap looking
gold paint spray job, is there
anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures of the
engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more then a C64 with
some spray paint?
I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is
anything that truly sets it apart.
Afaik, it commemorates(sp) the 1,000,000th C-64 off the production line in
Germany. Isn't that unique enough for you? There weren't many of those
plaques made.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.simpits.org/geneb - The Me-109F/X Project
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
12:52 p.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
But according to the historic info, it's NOT
actually the 1millionth off
the line, they missed it, and grabbed one at random.
That's the American Gold 64. This is the German Jubilee 64.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- This manual has been carefully for errors to make sure correct. -- classiccmp
6:16 p.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold
paint spray job, is
there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures
of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more
then a C64 with some spray paint?
I'm not doubting its authenticity, I would just like to know if there is
anything that truly sets it apart.
Possibly the provenance of WHO sprayed the gold paint on it?
6:20 p.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Besides what looks like a really cheap looking gold
paint spray job, is
there anyone truly unique about the unit? Does it have the signatures
of the engineers in it or anything that shows it to be anything more
then a C64 with some spray paint?
Tony Cole (with the Cray parts) used to peddle generic clones (V.I.P.C.)
He assembled a machine with the best of all of the parts that he had
available to him, and gold-plated the case "for RF shielding".
He got an amazing amount of "free ink", including front cover pictures in
magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
6:35 p.m.
New subject: The gold C64 on ebay??
> He got an amazing amount of "free ink",
including front cover pictures
> in magazines, that more than made up for the extravagant cost.
On Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'd like to see one bronzed like a pair of baby
shoes.
That would be nice, but it would not attract the media like GOLD.
2 Aug
2 Aug
11:13 a.m.
On 01/08/10 16:12, A. C. Baumann wrote:
Depends.
I'd pay more for a working Replica I than a broken original.
I'd take the broken original, then the first thing I'd to is bring out
the testgear and fix the thing. I'd keep the original parts with it, but
IMHO a machine is worth more if it's actually working...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
5096
days inactive
5104
days old
26 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
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