3 Oct
2009
3 Oct
'09
8:42 a.m.
I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. Snagged a DDS3 external,
DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive that I was hoping might have been AIX. Turns
out its an 8MM Mammoth 20/40GB drive (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a
couple AS/400 stickers on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached on the back).
Are these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast? I don't have any experience with
them and grabbed it because I like collecting any kind of removable media drive I
don't have. Turned it on (fan must be moving quite a bit of air by the sound of it)
and the LCD went through diagnostics and then to a ready state with no tape so I assume
its not DOA so far. Just curious what you guys think before I go looking for tapes and a
cable to connect it to a HVD 68 pin card in my SUN U5. I assume Solaris 8 might know what
to do with this thing, or PC backup software will work with it.
3 Oct
3 Oct
11:39 a.m.
Subject: 8MM Tape drives
I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. Snagged a
DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive that I was hoping
might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth 20/40GB drive (looks like
ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple AS/400 stickers on it and
appears to be HVD (with terminator attached on the back). Are these drives
pretty decent, reliable, and fast? I don't have any experience with them and
grabbed it because I like collecting any kind of removable media drive I
don't have. Turned it on (fan must be moving quite a bit of air by the sound
of it) and the LCD went through diagnostics and then to a ready state with
no tape so I assume its not DOA so far. Just curious what you guys think
before I go looking for tapes and a cable to connect it to a HVD 68 pin card
in my SUN U5. I assume Solaris 8 might know what to do with this thing, or
PC backup software will work with it.
From my experience in media conversion, I can tell you
that Exabyte drives
are very stable indeed. I only use SE drives, but that should
not have any
influence on my answer.
4 mm drives (DDS3...) are based on the same experience a PITA. I once had a
drive pulling the tape out of the cassette and wrap it around the motor. the
customer was not very pleased, as it was to be used as evidence in a fraud
case.
Nico
6:35 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Kossow" <aek at bitsavers.org>
To: <General at mxscan01.zitechnet.dk>;
"Discussion at mxscan01.zitechnet.dk:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 4:41 PM
Subject: Re: 8MM Tape drives
Nico de Jong wrote:
I havnt seen that yet; a 8200 from 1990 is still in occasional service.
Nico
> From my experience in media conversion, I can
tell you that Exabyte
> drives are very stable indeed.
8200's are reaching the end of their useful life. Rather than turning to
goo, the pinch rollers crack.
5 Oct
5 Oct
8:59 p.m.
8200's are reaching the end of their useful life. Rather than turning to
goo, the pinch rollers crack.
Since, IIRC, it uses tapes with the same form factor as 8mm video
cassettes, does anyone know if any of the mechanism parts (particularly
the rubber parts :-)) are the same as those used in any 8mm camcorder? If
so, they would be fairly easy to obtain I think.
-tony
4 Oct
4 Oct
3:41 a.m.
Nico de Jong wrote:
Subject: 8MM Tape drives
I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few tapes drives. Snagged
a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive that I was
hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth 20/40GB drive
(looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple AS/400 stickers
on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached on the back). Are
these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast? I don't have any
experience with them and grabbed it because I like collecting any kind
of removable media drive I don't have. Turned it on (fan must be moving
quite a bit of air by the sound of it) and the LCD went through
diagnostics and then to a ready state with no tape so I assume its not
DOA so far. Just curious what you guys think before I go looking for
tapes and a cable to connect it to a HVD 68 pin card in my SUN U5. I
assume Solaris 8 might know what to do with this thing, or PC backup
software will work with it.
The Exabyte Mammoth is a decent drive.
Peace... Sridhar
3 Oct
3 Oct
6:23 p.m.
On 3 Oct 2009 at 3:42, Teo Zenios wrote:
I hit the local recycler today and purchased a few
tapes drives.
Snagged a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive
that I was hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth
20/40GB drive (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple
AS/400 stickers on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached
on the back). Are these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast?
After having supported a bunch of government customers using various
tape media for about a decade or so, my recommendation usually was:
DLT is better than
8mm is better than
DDS is better than
QIC
(With floppy-tape and Travan included in that last classification).
A big problem with QIC is that cartridges left too long often have
interaction between the (decaying) tension band and the oxide
coating. If the dead tension band doesn't get you, then the chance
that it peeled off a layer of oxide will.
DDS, let's face it, is basically an audio tape standard, with
inexpensive cartridges its key feature. I've got a stack of drives
here of various makes and flavors and have never found it to be
particularly reliable. I put it above QIC because almost all drives
do read-after-write verification.
8mm (Exabyte) is based on the video cartridge, again with cartridge
cost in mind. Because the tape is larger than the 4mm DDS and that a
single manufacturer produced the drives, it tends to be better.
Later drives do better than earlier ones, even on tapes recorded with
earlier drives. For example, if you have a tape recorded on an 8200,
you'll get better results reading it on an 8700, rather than an 8200.
DLT is pretty good--good enough for many manufacturers, including IBM
to brand their drives and put them on their servers. Initially, it
was hugely expensive, but used drives are cheap and the shelf life of
the media is pretty good. In comparison to the preceding categories,
it can be very fast.
FWIW, today I keep my critical short-term backups on USB flash. I
make multiple copies and stash them where the dog won't find them.
Storage conditions matter a lot. I recently took a stack of DC1000
carts I'd recorded back in the 80's (Irwin floppy-tape drive) and
every one read perfectly. My wife was cleaning out the safety
deposit box at our bank last month and came back with a stack of
DC6250 tapes that I had forgotten about. I expect that they'll also
have survived well.
On the other hand, I have a couple of Datasonix Pereos carts that I'm
not even going to bother with. They weren't reliable when they were
new and I don't expect that age has improved them.
Best regards,
Chuck
6:39 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 7:23 PM
Subject: Re: 8MM Tape drives
On 3 Oct 2009 at 3:42, Teo Zenios wrote:
I beg to differ.
My list says
- DLT -
- QIC and 8 mm
- 3480/3490
- DDS
- (long pause)
- floppy tape / Travan (QIC-80)
Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface, disgusts
me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an hour. Must have
been invented by the devil.
Nico
I hit the local recycler today and purchased a
few tapes drives.
Snagged a DDS3 external, DDS4 external, and a cool looking IBM drive
that I was hoping might have been AIX. Turns out its an 8MM Mammoth
20/40GB drive (looks like ebay #290335147769). The drive had a couple
AS/400 stickers on it and appears to be HVD (with terminator attached
on the back). Are these drives pretty decent, reliable, and fast?
After having supported a bunch of government customers using various
tape media for about a decade or so, my recommendation usually was:
DLT is better than
8mm is better than
DDS is better than
QIC
(With floppy-tape and Travan included in that last classification). 
6:46 p.m.
On Oct 3, 2009, at 1:39 PM, Nico de Jong wrote:
Well, as long as we're doing it, here's my list:
- DLT
- 9-track
- 3480
- QIC-150
....
- 8mm
....
....
....
- 4mm
After having
supported a bunch of government customers using various
tape media for about a decade or so, my recommendation usually was:
DLT is better than
8mm is better than
DDS is better than
QIC
(With floppy-tape and Travan included in that last classification).
I beg to differ.
My list says
- DLT -
- QIC and 8 mm
- 3480/3490
- DDS
- (long pause)
- floppy tape / Travan (QIC-80) Just the principle of writing a tape through the
floppy interface,
disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about
an hour. Must have been invented by the devil.
I agree 100%. I've never used those things...recognized it as a
Bad Idea right off the bat and avoided them altogether.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
7:20 p.m.
On 3 Oct 2009 at 19:39, Nico de Jong wrote:
Just the principle of writing a tape through the
floppy interface,
disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an
hour. Must have been invented by the devil.
I suppose where we diverge is on the long-term stability of QIC.
I've seen my share of very old QIC (>20 years) and can't say that I'd
put it as high as you do. 1/2" tape is okay, as long as it isn't one
of those awful brands that shed like crazy.
Aside from 1/2" tape, the oldest reliable storage medium I have is 8"
floppy--and various paper products.
Wasn't floppy tape invented by Cipher? The 525 is about the oldest
floppy tape drive that I know of (still have one sealed in its
original packaging).
So Cipher = Devil? :)
--Chuck
10:44 p.m.
For me, the devices are all failing much earlier than the media. Thanks
to some help, my 1/2" media is still readable from 1972 thru 1990.
Drives all have developed major servo problems, and sensor problems.
I'm not very good at fixing such, so have moved all of the data off that
media.
Amazingly I had a pile of 8mm tapes and around 1999 or 2000 I decided to
read them, and figured I'd have moderate to low success. The only tape
out of about 30 that didn't read was one I had marked "partial tape
error at end" and saved when I was doing a data recovery, and partial
saves might have proven useful.
The 8mm sample is only with 5 to 10gb tapes maximum, no experience with
higher ones for archival.
Agree comment on floppy tape, never bought it, as I always was able to
maintain access to 1/2" till I quit using tape and went to online
conservation and cd / dvd maintainence of data.
Jim
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 3 Oct 2009 at 19:39, Nico de Jong wrote:
Just the principle of writing a tape through the
floppy interface,
disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an
hour. Must have been invented by the devil.
I suppose where we diverge is on the long-term stability of QIC.
I've seen my share of very old QIC (>20 years) and can't say that I'd
put it as high as you do. 1/2" tape is okay, as long as it isn't one
of those awful brands that shed like crazy.
Aside from 1/2" tape, the oldest reliable storage medium I have is 8"
floppy--and various paper products.
Wasn't floppy tape invented by Cipher? The 525 is about the oldest
floppy tape drive that I know of (still have one sealed in its
original packaging).
So Cipher = Devil? :)
--Chuck
4 Oct
4 Oct
2:10 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 03, 2009 8:20 PM
Subject: Re: 8MM Tape drives
On 3 Oct 2009 at 19:39, Nico de Jong wrote:
I'm not very much in reading very old stuff, so you can be right on that
point.
1/2" tapes is also one of my favorites, normally. I recently had a job for
the UN, where I had to read some 60-70 tapes originating from west africa.
And they hadn't bee stored correctly. Some of the tapes had mould on them,
and one had mould from the outside and about half an inch inwards (mould on
the "sides" of the tape). Some also stitched, so I had quite a job reading
all of them.
The oldest floppy tape product I've seen, is the MicroSolutions BackPack. I
believe it is from the late 80's. They also had a QIC-80 product. Horrible
system. Don't know about Cipher.
Nico
Just the principle of writing a tape through the
floppy interface,
disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an
hour. Must have been invented by the devil.
I suppose where we diverge is on the long-term stability of QIC.
I've seen my share of very old QIC (>20 years) and can't say that I'd
put it as high as you do. 1/2" tape is okay, as long as it isn't one
of those awful brands that shed like crazy.
Aside from 1/2" tape, the oldest reliable storage medium I have is 8"
floppy--and various paper products.
Wasn't floppy tape invented by Cipher? The 525 is about the oldest
floppy tape drive that I know of (still have one sealed in its
original packaging).
7:20 p.m.
On 4 Oct 2009 at 15:10, Nico de Jong wrote:
The oldest floppy tape product I've seen, is the
MicroSolutions
BackPack. I believe it is from the late 80's. They also had a QIC-80
product. Horrible system. Don't know about Cipher.
The Cipher 525 documentation on Bitsavers indicates 1984. It came in
two flavors--an SA850 (8") interface and an SA450 (5.25") interface.
The recording medium was DC600A carts. As a lower-cost alternative
to a standard QIC-02 interface drive, it wasn't a horrible
implementation. I think things started going downhill when the
minicart (DC-2000) drives were introduced and efforts to pack ever-
increasing amounts of data on a limited medium were mounted with
questionable success.
--Chuck
3:50 a.m.
Nico de Jong wrote:
I beg to differ.
My list says
- DLT -
- QIC and 8 mm
- 3480/3490
- DDS
- (long pause)
- floppy tape / Travan (QIC-80)
Just the principle of writing a tape through the floppy interface,
disgusts me. Formatting a tape takes a very long time; ISTR about an
hour. Must have been invented by the devil.
I have many hundreds of gig stored on 3480 without problem.
Peace... Sridhar
5342
days inactive
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days old
14 comments
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
emu＠e-bbes.com -
jws＠jwsss.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
nico＠farumdata.dk -
ploopster＠gmail.com -
teoz＠neo.rr.com