23 Jan
2006
23 Jan
'06
11:10 p.m.
Dudez & Dudettez:
I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic HHC 'puter
- and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I know... ummm...
"squat"
about Forth. ;^>
I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a filename,
create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes "buh-bye" for every
filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I type, all I get is "Can't Find
xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any durned thing I type.
It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" type
proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter.
It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh, waitaminit...
lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character words, as it looks like
the last character of the word is OR'ed with $80... It looks like it's got
quite a few words, looking at the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST,
STRIN, CVECT, JUMP....
I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help...
I've tried:
100 LLL !
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]]
100 VAR DORK
100 VARI DORK
100 VARIA DORK
100 VARIABLE DORK
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]]
100 CONS BURP
100 CONST BURP
[[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]]
I've also tried:
.S
DROP
." Hello World"
and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google.
Anyone got any other idears for me?
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy...
zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!"
23 Jan
23 Jan
11:58 p.m.
How about simple arithmatic?
1 1 + would suffice, just to see if it'd return 'OK', or the same error...
On 1/24/06, Roger Merchberger <zmerch at 30below.com> wrote:
Dudez & Dudettez:
Anyone got any other idears for me?
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy...
zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!"
--
"I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world
and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke."
-- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs,
"The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein
24 Jan
24 Jan
12:11 a.m.
On 1/24/2006 at 2:10 AM Roger Merchberger wrote:
I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for
the Panasonic HHC 'puter
- and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly
as I know... ummm... "squat"
about Forth. ;^
Wasn't SNAP the builtin language for the HHC? Are these ROMs supposed to
translate Forth to SNAP?
Most of the HHC's I've ever seen had applications ROMs for things like
amortization and depreciation. I think there was also a Microsoft BASIC
ROM.
Cheers,
Chuck
1:04 a.m.
On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 02:10 -0500, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Dudez & Dudettez:
I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic HHC 'puter
- and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I know... ummm...
"squat"
about Forth. ;^>
I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a filename,
create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes "buh-bye" for every
filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I type, all I get is "Can't Find
xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any durned thing I type.
It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" type
proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter.
That's odd.
Usually ." Hello, world." words on all forths.
Keep in mind you do need the space between ." and the first letter of
the string, since ." is a word (a "parsing" word since it reads ahead in
the stream till the ending ")
It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words...
duh, waitaminit...
lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character words, as it looks like
the last character of the word is OR'ed with $80... It looks like it's got
quite a few words, looking at the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST,
STRIN, CVECT, JUMP....
The way old Forths worked was that they saved space by matching the
first 3 characters of the name and the length. So VARIABLE != VARIANT
since the lengths are different. Maybe yours does have 5 character
words.
I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it
would help...
Might help. Sometimes you can also type WORDS at the command prompt and
see all the words.
I've tried:
100 LLL !
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]]
You mean try to store the value 100 in the variable LLL.
Well, first you need to create the variable:
VARIABLE LLL
Then you store a value in it:
100 LLL !
100 VAR DORK
100 VARI DORK
100 VARIA DORK
100 VARIABLE DORK
Type the whole word.
Are you trying to make a variable or a constant?
VARIABLE DORK
100 DORK !
DORK @ .
or...
100 CONSTANT DORK
DORK .
Newer Forths have a word called VALUE which is close to the semantics
you made up for VARIABLE.
Also, you can just use CREATE as so:
CREATE DORK
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]]
100 CONS BURP
100 CONST BURP
[[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]]
the word is CONSTANT
I've also tried:
.S
This word prints out the contents of the stack. If you put something on
there first, it should print something.
1 2 3 4 5 .S
DROP
Don't do this unless you have something on the stack to drop. Actually,
try it it should give you an error if there's nothing on the stack.
." Hello World"
That should work in most Forths.
and other things I'd seen in various webpages
thanks to Google.
Anyone got any other idears for me?
Try to do some arithmetic ala
100 2 * .
Next step is a simple word like SQUARE
: SQUARE DUP * ;
5 SQUARE .
-- John.
6:22 a.m.
Hi,
John R. Hogerhuis said:
." is usually a compiling word and may not work in immediate mode.
As someone else suggested try some simple arithmetic like
2 2 + . and see if it responds with:
4 ok
Then perhaps try
: hi ." Hello, world " ;
to see if it will compile a new word - in this case called hi.
If it responds "ok" then try typing:
hi <return>
and you should get:
Hello world ok
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
On Tue, 2006-01-24 at 02:10 -0500, Roger Merchberger
wrote:
It can't
seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World" type
proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter.
That's odd.
Usually ." Hello, world." words on all forths.
10:50 a.m.
That's odd.
Usually ." Hello, world." words on all forths.
Watch out. In some Forths, ." can only be used inside a colon definition,
not in the imput like (you get some very odd effects, possibly even a
crash if you try). I used to know the reason for this, something about it
needing to allocate space for the string.
At least one Forth used " rather than ." too.
Keep in mind you do need the space between ." and the first letter of
the string, since ." is a word (a "parsing" word since it reads ahead in
the stream till the ending ")
But there does not need to be a space before the closing quote (if there
is one, it will be output as part of the string)
Might help. Sometimes you can also type WORDS at the
command prompt and
see all the words.
VLIST (stands for Vocabulary List) is another word some FORTHs use for this.
-tony
5:28 a.m.
Well, you seem to be doing better than I am. All I can get is the HHC
to display "SnapFORTH" when I select it from the menu. No prompt for
filename and all I can do at that point is press "clear" to get back
to the main menu. It looks like I may have inserted the ROMs in the
wrong order when I put them back into the external carrier after
downloading the contents to send to you. Ugh! I thought I had been
careful about that too!
On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Dudez & Dudettez:
I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic HHC
'puter - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I know...
ummm... "squat" about Forth. ;^>
I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a
filename, create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes
"buh-bye" for every filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I
type, all I get is "Can't Find xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any
durned thing I type.
It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World"
type proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter.
It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh,
waitaminit... lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character
words, as it looks like the last character of the word is OR'ed
with $80... It looks like it's got quite a few words, looking at
the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, STRIN, CVECT, JUMP....
I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help...
I've tried:
100 LLL !
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]]
100 VAR DORK
100 VARI DORK
100 VARIA DORK
100 VARIABLE DORK
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]]
100 CONS BURP
100 CONST BURP
[[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]]
I've also tried:
.S
DROP
." Hello World"
and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google.
Anyone got any other idears for me?
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy...
zmerch at 30below.com | ...in oxymoron!"
5:43 a.m.
Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the pins on one
of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell
off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in
the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the
EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests
that they may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why
your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case though
because I'm sure I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in
general) get more brittle as they get older? I've never had this type
of problem before. These are gold colored (and plated I assume) pins
if that makes a difference.
On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:28 AM, David Betz wrote:
Well, you seem to be doing better than I am. All I can
get is the
HHC to display "SnapFORTH" when I select it from the menu. No
prompt for filename and all I can do at that point is press "clear"
to get back to the main menu. It looks like I may have inserted the
ROMs in the wrong order when I put them back into the external
carrier after downloading the contents to send to you. Ugh! I
thought I had been careful about that too!
On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Dudez & Dudettez:
I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic
HHC 'puter - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I
know... ummm... "squat" about Forth. ;^>
I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a
filename, create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes
"buh-bye" for every filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I
type, all I get is "Can't Find xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any
durned thing I type.
It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World"
type proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter.
It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh,
waitaminit... lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character
words, as it looks like the last character of the word is OR'ed
with $80... It looks like it's got quite a few words, looking at
the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, STRIN, CVECT, JUMP....
I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help...
I've tried:
100 LLL !
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]]
100 VAR DORK
100 VARI DORK
100 VARIA DORK
100 VARIABLE DORK
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]]
100 CONS BURP
100 CONST BURP
[[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]]
I've also tried:
.S
DROP
." Hello World"
and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google.
Anyone got any other idears for me?
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy...
zmerch at 30below.com | ...in
oxymoron!"
2:59 a.m.
At 08:43 AM 1/24/06 -0500, you wrote:
Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of the
pins on one
of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell
off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in
the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the
EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests
that they may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why
your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case though
because I'm sure I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in
general) get more brittle as they get older?
Absolutely!!! Especially if the sockets are made of different material
than the pins OR if they've been stored in anything less than bone-dry
storage. The two different materials set up an electochemical reaction just
like a battery and the more active material is actually consumed (same as a
battery). Water (humity) and trace amounts of dirt, dust, etc forms the
electrolyte. Scott Mueller's book Upgrading and Repairing PCs actually has
a good description of this. Scott says to only use gold pins in gold
sockets and tin plated pins in tin plated sockets. I don't think that's
absolutely necessary as long as the system is kept in a DRY area and you
only expect a few years of service out of it (ala modern PCs). If I really
wanted maximum reliability and life then I would do as he suggest. OTOH if
I wanted MAXIMUM reliabilty and life then I'd solder everything together
but that would adversely affect the repairability of the system. This is
one of the most compelling resons NOT to use IC sockets.
I've never had this type
of problem before. These are gold colored (and plated I
assume)
Of course. What happens is that gold is very porous and the metal under
the gold will be eaten away and leave the film of gold holding everything
together. At least until you touch it or try to remove it from the socket
and then everything falls apart.
FWIW I've fixed irreplacable ICs by putting them in a wire wrap IC
socket and then soldering the nubs of the leads to the socket and then
plugging the socket and IC back into the circuit. You'll be soldering right
up against the body of the IC so you have to be carefull not to over heat
it. Clean the IC lgs/nubs and socket connectors good then use low
temperature solder and a good tempature controlled soldering iron. I use
wire wrap sockets with machined sockets because the legs are much stiffer
then stamped out sockets and I can plug them into the original IC socket on
the circuit board.
Joe
pins
if that makes a difference.
On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:28 AM, David Betz wrote:
Well, you seem to be doing better than I am. All
I can get is the
HHC to display "SnapFORTH" when I select it from the menu. No
prompt for filename and all I can do at that point is press "clear"
to get back to the main menu. It looks like I may have inserted the
ROMs in the wrong order when I put them back into the external
carrier after downloading the contents to send to you. Ugh! I
thought I had been careful about that too!
On Jan 24, 2006, at 2:10 AM, Roger Merchberger wrote:
Dudez & Dudettez:
I'm trying to get some SnapForth ROMs running for the Panasonic
HHC 'puter - and I'm having a bit'o'difficulty, mainly as I
know... ummm... "squat" about Forth. ;^>
I've gotten the ROMs to be able to start SnapForth, ask for a
filename, create the filename & filespace (about 1K of RAM goes
"buh-bye" for every filename I make... ;-) but no matter what I
type, all I get is "Can't Find xxxxx" where xxxxx seems to be any
durned thing I type.
It can't seem to make new words, and every simple "Hello World"
type proggie I've found on the net makes *no* sense to the 'puter.
It looks like it has a max. of 4-character words... duh,
waitaminit... lemme check the ROMs again... *maybe* 5-character
words, as it looks like the last character of the word is OR'ed
with $80... It looks like it's got quite a few words, looking at
the ROMs in ASCII - I found VARIA, CONST, STRIN, CVECT, JUMP....
I could provide a clip of the ROM word table if it would help...
I've tried:
100 LLL !
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in LLL ]]
100 VAR DORK
100 VARI DORK
100 VARIA DORK
100 VARIABLE DORK
[[ To try to store the variable 100 in DORK ]]
100 CONS BURP
100 CONST BURP
[[ To try to make BURP a constant of 100 ]]
I've also tried:
.S
DROP
." Hello World"
and other things I'd seen in various webpages thanks to Google.
Anyone got any other idears for me?
Thanks,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger | A new truth in advertising slogan
SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers | for MicroSoft: "We're not the oxy...
zmerch at 30below.com | ...in
oxymoron!"
8:16 a.m.
New subject: Was: Quick Forth Question - New Subject: Chip Repair
On Tuesday 24 January 2006 02:59, Joe R. wrote:
--snip--
FWIW I've fixed irreplacable ICs by putting
them in a wire wrap IC
socket and then soldering the nubs of the leads to the socket and then
plugging the socket and IC back into the circuit. You'll be soldering right
up against the body of the IC so you have to be carefull not to over heat
it. Clean the IC lgs/nubs and socket connectors good then use low
temperature solder and a good tempature controlled soldering iron. I use
wire wrap sockets with machined sockets because the legs are much stiffer
then stamped out sockets and I can plug them into the original IC socket on
the circuit board.
This is good advice - I've also had good success with this procedure.
Cheers,
Lyle
--
Lyle Bickley
Bickley Consulting West Inc.
Mountain View, CA
http://bickleywest.com
"Black holes are where God is dividing by zero"
5:57 a.m.
David Betz wrote:
Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three of
the pins on one of
the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell off
when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in the
sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the EPROMs
to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests that they
may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why your SnapFORTH
ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case though because I'm sure
I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in general) get more
brittle as they get older? I've never had this type of problem before.
These are gold colored (and plated I assume) pins if that makes a
difference.
They definitely get brittle if repeatedly bent.
Peace... Sridhar
6:03 a.m.
Yes, but these weren't bent (at least by me). They plug into normal
IC sockets in a carrier module that plugs into the side of the HHC.
They aren't the ones that go inside and must have their pins wrapped
around a plastic carrier. There was no evidence of repeated bending
on any of the pins.
On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
David Betz wrote:
Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three
of the pins on
one of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread
and fell off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins
remain in the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I
removed the EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose
this suggests that they may have fallen off *before* I read them
and that is why your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think
that's the case though because I'm sure I would have noticed
that. Do EPROM (or chip pins in general) get more brittle as they
get older? I've never had this type of problem before. These are
gold colored (and plated I assume) pins if that makes a difference.
They definitely get brittle if repeatedly bent.
Peace... Sridhar
6:20 a.m.
David Betz wrote:
Yes, but these weren't bent (at least by me). They
plug into normal IC
sockets in a carrier module that plugs into the side of the HHC. They
aren't the ones that go inside and must have their pins wrapped around
a plastic carrier. There was no evidence of repeated bending on any of
the pins.
Hmmmm. Heat could do it, but I don't know of any reason why an EPROM
would get hot under any reasonable circumstances.
Peace... Sridhar
On Jan 24, 2006, at 8:57 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
David Betz wrote:
Okay, I figured out the immediate problem. Three
of the pins on one
of the EPROMs have broken off. One was hanging by a thread and fell
off when I inspected it. I see no evidence that the pins remain in
the sockets so I guess they must have fallen off when I removed the
EPROMs to read them in my EPROM programmer. I suppose this suggests
that they may have fallen off *before* I read them and that is why
your SnapFORTH ROMs don't work. I don't think that's the case
though because I'm sure I would have noticed that. Do EPROM (or
chip pins in general) get more brittle as they get older? I've
never had this type of problem before. These are gold colored (and
plated I assume) pins if that makes a difference.
They definitely get brittle if repeatedly bent.
Peace... Sridhar
6859
days inactive
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