4 Dec
2009
4 Dec
'09
1:11 p.m.
On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote:
> How about their "Jaz" drives?
> their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was
administered
> DURING manufacturing.
I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem and not a JAZ
problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying
problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone really
know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch;
solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control probably,
but why loose it and not regain it). Comments?
Pure intellectual curiosity only :-)
Tom
4 Dec
4 Dec
1:21 p.m.
On Dec 4, 2009, at 10:11 AM, Tom Gardner wrote:
I thought the "click of death" phenomena was
a ZIP problem and not a JAZ
problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying
problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone really
know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch;
solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control probably,
but why loose it and not regain it). Comments?
The Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Click_of_death) seems to provide some
insight.
1:30 p.m.
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner wrote:
I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being named for the
noises they make when they die.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On 29 Nov 2009
at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote:
> How about their "Jaz" drives?
> their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was
administered
> DURING manufacturing.
I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem and not a JAZ
problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying
problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone really
know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch;
solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control probably,
but why loose it and not regain it). Comments?
Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) 
1:51 p.m.
David Griffith wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner wrote:
I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being named for the
noises they make when they die.
Don't forget Iomega's so-called "backup software"!
One of my clients had been doing his nightly backup on an Iomega
Travan drive, using the software that came with it. I did a restore
test when he came to us, and found that most of his tapes were so worn
there were clear stretches of mylar mid-tape! The Iomega software had
never thrown a single write error.
We used to call Iomega stuff in general "write-only media".
Doc
On 29 Nov
2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote:
> How about their "Jaz" drives?
> their "click" drives? In which the "click of death" was
administered
> DURING manufacturing.
I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem and not a JAZ
problem. I also never found a good statement of what was the underlying
problem(s) that led to the "click of death" phenomena! Does anyone
really
know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, head retract/relaunch;
solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss of servo control
probably,
but why loose it and not regain it). Comments?
Pure intellectual curiosity only :-) 
2:21 p.m.
On 4 Dec 2009 at 12:51, Doc Shipley wrote:
One of my clients had been doing his nightly backup
on an Iomega
Travan drive, using the software that came with it. I did a restore
test when he came to us, and found that most of his tapes were so worn
there were clear stretches of mylar mid-tape! The Iomega software had
never thrown a single write error.
Not really Iomega's fault.
My gripe in general with most Travan and QIC-40/80 consumer-level
devices. A separate verify pass is necessary, which takes about as
much time as the writing pass, so most users simply never bothered.
And if an error was discovered on the tape, the entire tape had to be
rewritten, a real disincentive to verifying if there ever was one.
An awful lot of data was written in drifting sand as a result.
As much as DDS devices were despised, at least they had read-after-
write.
My memory is faint, but I think there were a few Travan drives wtih
read-after write implemented--perhaps HP?
--Chuck
2:31 p.m.
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 1:21 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
My gripe in general with most Travan and QIC-40/80
consumer-level
devices. A separate verify pass is necessary, which takes about as
much time as the writing pass, so most users simply never bothered.
And if an error was discovered on the tape, the entire tape had to be
rewritten, a real disincentive to verifying if there ever was one.
An awful lot of data was written in drifting sand as a result.
Back in the early 90s, I had a job installing computers in dentist offices.
It was a dos based application with an early version of novell. So there'd
be half a dozen ISA based dos machines with 10base2 network boards. The
novell servers would have QIC drives in them (iirc). The machines had an
optical sensor with a light. When the tape neared the end of the reel,
holes in the tape would pass between the light and detector telling the
drive that the end was near. These things would fill up with dust and
obscure the light or sensor. So it wouldn't detect the end of the reel and
wind the tape all the way off the other spool. The tape wasn't attached at
all, just wound around the reel with enough extra to hold it in place. I
don't know how many times I've opened those QIC cartridges and crazy-glued
the tape back onto the reel after blowing the dust out of the drive. They
didn't want their data back. They were just too cheap to buy new
cartridges. :-/
brian
2:50 p.m.
On 4 Dec 2009 at 13:31, Brian Lanning wrote:
I don't know how many times I've opened those
QIC cartridges and
crazy-glued the tape back onto the reel after blowing the dust out of
the drive. They didn't want their data back. They were just too
cheap to buy new cartridges. :-/
Back when I was just starting to fool with floppy QIC drives, I had
a terrible time with the tape despooling. Fortunately, 3M had a
working customer-service number and one got to talk with a real human
who actually knew something.
When I called, the fellow on the other end said that a "surfactant
solution" could be used to slightly moisten the loose end of the tape
to stick it to the hub so that the tape could be wound onto it.
When I asked him what exactly was meant by "surfactant solution", he
said "saliva will do just fine".
And so it did.
--Chuck
5:25 p.m.
wind the tape all the way off the other spool. The
tape wasn't attached at
all, just wound around the reel with enough extra to hold it in place. I
don't know how many times I've opened those QIC cartridges and crazy-glued
the tape back onto the reel after blowing the dust out of the drive. They
Yiu don;'t need (and shouldn't) glue anything. You cna just wind the tape
on as it was origianlly, then turn the 2 reels in opposite directions by
hand to tension the tape, reassemble the catridge and do the normal
'retension tape' procedure on the drive.
This was in the user manuals for some of the QIC drives I've worked with
(back when user manuals contained useful information).
didn't want their data back. They were just too
cheap to buy new
cartridges. :-/
Although the manuals make it clear this procesudre is to be done only to
recover data from damaged tapes. And that you should buy new tapes
afterwards...
Does anyobody elase remebr the 'what is the true cost of a diskette'
advert? It gave some very high figure and then pointed out that $2 (or
something) was the media and the rest was paying a typist to re-enter the
data. I don;'t think it pointed out that if you didn;'t have a copy of
the data, the cost was going to be even higher, That ad conviced me to
always use good-quality media (not necessarily from whatver company it
was advertising, thohgh).
-tony
5:39 p.m.
On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:25 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Yiu don;'t need (and shouldn't) glue anything.
You cna just wind the tape
on as it was origianlly, then turn the 2 reels in opposite directions by
hand to tension the tape, reassemble the catridge and do the normal
'retension tape' procedure on the drive.
This was in the user manuals for some of the QIC drives I've worked with
(back when user manuals contained useful information).
I agree. I was following the strict procedure devised by my not-so-bright
boss. I think he believed the tape wouldn't come off the next time.
brian
5:29 p.m.
Steve Gibson (Spinrite, Shields Up, etc.) has a really good discussion of the ZIP drive
and how and when it fails.
This link takes you to his software for the problem (I think it's one of his freebies,
but I haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below that is his discussion of the
anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click (which is what those drives ought to
be renamed).
http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm
Vern Wright
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
From: David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:30 AM
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner
wrote:
problem and not a
JAZ
> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> How about their "Jaz" drives?
>> their "click" drives?? In which the
"click of death"
was administered
>
DURING manufacturing.
I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem.? I also never found a good statement of
what was the underlying
problem(s) that led to the "click of
death"
phenomena!? Does anyone really
know what was going on (inner crash stop crash,
head
retract/relaunch;
solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss
of
servo control probably,
but why loose it and not regain it).? Comments?
Pure intellectual curiosity only :-)
I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being
named for the
noises they make when they die.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read
text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
5:44 p.m.
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Vernon Wright wrote:
haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below
that is his
discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click
(which is what those drives ought to be renamed).
But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click" (20M? too little, too
late)
6:01 p.m.
On Dec 4, 2009, at 2:44 PM, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Vernon Wright wrote:
40mb. I inherited a drive and some disks... I find it remarkable that
they managed to fit a spinning-removable-media drive inside a standard
PCMCIA card. Somehow, I don't really feel like trusting it to
anything important, though :).
( I also have an mp3 player that uses the discs... if a 40mb disc
could hold more than 10 songs it might have been a good idea...)
- Josh
haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But
below that is his
discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click
(which is what those drives ought to be renamed).
But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click" (20M? too
little, too
late) 
7 Dec
7 Dec
2:31 p.m.
But Iomega
already marketed a drive named "Click" (20M? too little,
too
late)
40mb. I inherited a drive and some disks... I find it remarkable that
they managed to fit a spinning-removable-media drive inside a standard
PCMCIA card. Somehow, I don't really feel like trusting it to anything
important, though :).
( I also have an mp3 player that uses the discs... if a 40mb disc could
hold more than 10 songs it might have been a good idea...)
4 Dec
4 Dec
10:19 p.m.
Guess I shouldn't get into the business of advising Iomega on naming their products.
Vern Wright
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote:
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 2:44 PM
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Vernon Wright
wrote:
haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But
below
that is his
discussion of the anatomy of the drives and the
reasons for the Click
(which is what those drives ought to be renamed).
But Iomega already marketed a drive named "Click"?
(20M?? too little, too
late)
6:09 p.m.
Slightly off topic, but wasn't Spinrite shown to be pretty much a snake oil product at
one point?
________________________________
From: Vernon Wright <vern4wright at yahoo.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 4:29:21 PM
Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')
Steve Gibson (Spinrite, Shields Up, etc.) has a really good discussion of the ZIP drive
and how and when it fails.
This link takes you to his software for the problem (I think it's one of his freebies,
but I haven't used my ZIP drives in 5+ years). But below that is his discussion of the
anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click (which is what those drives ought to
be renamed).
http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm
Vern Wright
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
From: David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:30 AM
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner
wrote:
problem and not a
JAZ
> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> How about their "Jaz" drives?
>> their "click" drives? In which the
"click of death"
was administered
>
DURING manufacturing.
I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a ZIP problem. I also never found a good statement of
what was the underlying
problem(s) that led to the "click of
death"
phenomena! Does anyone really
know what was going on (inner crash stop crash,
head
retract/relaunch;
solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss
of
servo control probably,
but why loose it and not regain it). Comments?
Pure intellectual curiosity only :-)
I had a professor who described Iomega devices as being
named for the
noises they make when they die.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read
text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
6:20 p.m.
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, geoffrey oltmans wrote:
Slightly off topic, but wasn't Spinrite shown to
be pretty much a snake
oil product at one point?
It actually could take a track that was on the manufacturer's
defect/"Don't trust this!" list, and if it got a successful read/write,
return that track to active use!
6:31 p.m.
geoffrey oltmans wrote:
Slightly off topic, but wasn't Spinrite shown to
be pretty much a snake oil product at one point?
Basically, yeah.
It does some "magnetic black magic" (there's an appnote somewhere on
www.grc.com about it), but I can't see it being anywhere near relevant
for modern drives.
I'd be very surprised if the "patented magnetic data encoder/decoder"
wasn't at least two generations out of date -- hard drive manufacturers
don't tend to give out much information at the best of times (even
application/OEM manuals are a pig to get hold of these days). The idea
that any company larger than (say) Conner was in ~1988 would give GRC
details on the magnetic encoding scheme used on their drives is
laughable at best. These companies are fiercely protective of their IP
(and that's probably an understatement).
Spinrite is also about as fast as treacle dripping off a spoon in the
middle of a Siberian winter...
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
8:49 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
At 04:54 PM 12/4/2009 -0800, you wrote:
In a Kaypro 2000, but that's the wrong answer. Now
there is a chip I
haven't heard about in a *LONG* time.
Zane
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
>Anyone know where I can find one?
I remember hotrodding many PCs by intalling a V30 and a PC-Sprint kit (a
new clock chip on a small board with an external switch. You got a small
selection of crystals to try. You left the highest freq crystal installed
that ran and was stable.)
-----
332. [Science] You should never bet against anything in science at odds of
more
than about 10-12 to 1. --Ernest Rutherford
--... ...-- -.. . -. ----. --.- --.- -...
tpeters at nospam.mixcom.com (remove "nospam") N9QQB (amateur radio)
"HEY YOU" (loud shouting) WEB: http://www.mixweb.com/tpeters
43? 7' 17.2" N by 88? 6' 28.9" W, Elevation 815', Grid Square
EN53wc
WAN/LAN/Telcom Analyst, Tech Writer, MCP, CCNA, Registered Linux User 385531
9:17 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On Dec 4, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
Anyone know where I can find one?
I scored one on eBay about two years ago, I think it cost me
around $10. The part number is "70108"; it's more likely (or at
least just as likely) to be listed by that than "V20".
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
5 Dec
5 Dec
12:03 a.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On 12/4/09 6:17 PM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On Dec 4, 2009, at 7:56 PM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
Don't the V20/V30 have the 8080 instructions in them so you can run cp/m
programs with minimum emulation.
Anyone know where I can find one?
I scored one on eBay about two years ago, I think it cost me
around $10. The part number is "70108"; it's more likely (or at
least just as likely) to be listed by that than "V20".
-Dave
12:12 a.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:03 AM, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
Don't the V20/V30 have the 8080 instructions in them so you can run
cp/m
programs with minimum emulation.
The V20 definitely does; I've done that. I don't know about the
V30 but I *think* it does...can anyone confirm?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
Anyone know where I can find one?
I scored one on eBay about two years ago, I think it cost me
around $10. The part number is "70108"; it's more likely (or at
least just as likely) to be listed by that than "V20".
12:21 a.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On 4 Dec 2009 at 21:03, Geoffrey Reed wrote:
Don't the V20/V30 have the 8080 instructions in
them so you can run
cp/m programs with minimum emulation.
Yes--note that it's 8080, not Z80 or even 8085. There are one or two
small bugs in the implementation, but most things will run okay.
Note that the V40 and V50 chips also have the capability as do a few
other members of the lower V-series.
The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a moot point nowadays,
as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080
code via software emulation. And you can do more things with
software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20.
--Chuck
12:23 a.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a moot
point nowadays,
as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080
code via software emulation. And you can do more things with
software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20.
Troll alert. ;)
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
12:43 a.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On 5 Dec 2009 at 0:23, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
No troll. Just experience writing an emulator package that did both.
A software emulator can trap I/O and memory references and direct
them to a handler that allows one to emulate whatever hardware one
desires. The V20/V30/V33/V40/V50 simply map I/O accesses to
whatever port is present on the host machine--far less useful.
What's far more interesting to me on the V-series are the
instructions that one won't find on any Intel chip, such as the BCD
string arithmetic instructions.
--Chuck
The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a
moot point nowadays,
as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080
code via software emulation. And you can do more things with
software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20.
Troll alert. ;)
8:43 a.m.
New subject: V20 processor
I was really more interested in the overall performance gains per clock cycle over the
8088... IIRC it's supposed to be between 10-20% faster or something like that.
On Dec 4, 2009, at 11:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 5 Dec 2009 at 0:23, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Dec 5, 2009, at 12:21 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
No troll. Just experience writing an emulator package that did both.
A software emulator can trap I/O and memory references and direct
them to a handler that allows one to emulate whatever hardware one
desires. The V20/V30/V33/V40/V50 simply map I/O accesses to
whatever port is present on the host machine--far less useful.
What's far more interesting to me on the V-series are the
instructions that one won't find on any Intel chip, such as the BCD
string arithmetic instructions.
--Chuck
The emulation, while interesting, is sort of a
moot point nowadays,
as even a 75MHz P1 can run rings around a 5MHz V20 executing 8080
code via software emulation. And you can do more things with
software emulation than with the hardware emulation on a V20.
Troll alert. ;)
8:52 a.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On Dec 5, 2009, at 8:43 AM, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
I was really more interested in the overall
performance gains per
clock cycle over the 8088... IIRC it's supposed to be between
10-20% faster or something like that.
It's a noticeable improvement. I used to refer to it as the
"something for nothing" upgrade. The V20's power consumption is also
significantly lower than that of the 8088, so that's a nice benefit
as well.
-Dave
12:38 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On 5 Dec 2009 at 7:43, Geoff Oltmans wrote:
I was really more interested in the overall
performance gains per
clock cycle over the 8088... IIRC it's supposed to be between 10-20%
faster or something like that.
Depends on the instruction mix--some things are much faster; others
not so much. I may still have some benchmark data in my V20 file
that sheds some additional light if you're curious.
I do recall that the gain was perhaps barely noticeable on a standard
IBM 5160 and gave ridiculous indication on the Landmark SPEED test.
The most significant benefit was that the V20 supports all of the non-
privileged 80286 instructions, expanding the software possibilities a
bit for old 8-bit PCs.
The V20 could be had in higher-speed versions (16MHz?) than the Intel
8088.
Although the NEC V-series extended up through the V70, only the V20
and V30 parts were pin-compatible with the Intel 8088 and 8086. Many
other members of the V series contain some innovative features.
--Chuck
1:41 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
> clock cycle over the 8088... IIRC it's
supposed to be between 10-20%
> faster or something like that.
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote:
Depends on the instruction mix--some things are much
faster; others
not so much. I may still have some benchmark data in my V20 file
that sheds some additional light if you're curious.
If you let me design the race-course, I can beat a Ferrari with a 1950's
VW bus. Or, to be closer to on-topic:
If you let me design the benchmark, I can prove that a TRS80 is faster
than a current Dell.
I do recall that the gain was perhaps barely
noticeable on a standard
IBM 5160 and gave ridiculous indication on the Landmark SPEED test.
Landmark was extremely popular with vendors, because it made the most
trivial enhancements seem major.
Although it was CLOSE, usually acceptably so, it was not COMPLETELY
plug-in compatible. For example, the Gavilan required some trivial
hardware mods to use it.
2:18 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On 5 Dec 2009 at 10:41, Fred Cisin wrote:
If you let me design the race-course, I can beat a
Ferrari with a
1950's VW bus. Or, to be closer to on-topic: If you let me design
the benchmark, I can prove that a TRS80 is faster than a current Dell.
Machines were designed to perform to certain benchmarks. Anyone
remember Saxpy (the company, not the LINPACK deck)? Anyone have one
of their machines?
We used to "cook" benchmarks with clever compiler optimizations.
Landmark was extremely popular with vendors, because
it made the most
trivial enhancements seem major.
At 80's computer "faires", you used to see aisle after aisle of
vendors selling Far East-origin systems all running Version 0.99 of
the Landmark test.
Although it was CLOSE, usually acceptably so, it was
not COMPLETELY
plug-in compatible. For example, the Gavilan required some trivial
hardware mods to use it.
On most systems, this isn't an issue, but ISTR that the RESET timing
is a bit slower on the V20 than the 8088 and that trips up some
systems. AAR, if you have trouble with the V20 in your 8088 system,
the first place to look is the reset timing. There are also some
nits when an 8087 is involved, but I think the workarounds are mostly
software in nature.
--Chuck
2:29 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On Sat, 5 Dec 2009, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On most systems, this isn't an issue, but ISTR
that the RESET timing
is a bit slower on the V20 than the 8088 and that trips up some
systems. AAR, if you have trouble with the V20 in your 8088 system,
the first place to look is the reset timing. There are also some
nits when an 8087 is involved, but I think the workarounds are mostly
software in nature.
. . . and, it didn't behave the way the 8088 behaved if you had an
interrupt occur during execution of an instruction with multiple
"prefixes", such as a segment override along with a REP with the
"string"
instructions.
2:45 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On 5 Dec 2009 at 11:29, Fred Cisin wrote:
. . . and, it didn't behave the way the 8088
behaved if you had an
interrupt occur during execution of an instruction with multiple
"prefixes", such as a segment override along with a REP with the
"string" instructions.
Early versions of the 8088 did have the problem that they'd "forget"
all but one prefix when the return from interrupt was made, but I
think later ones didn't.
Just as early versions of the 8088 didn't mask interrupts for one
instruction time after a MOV SS,... instruction.
The V-series made it into some early laptops and portables because of
the lower power consumption. In particular, when the CPU was in a
"halt" state, power consumption dropped to about 1/10 of that of the
running state.
--Chuck
12 Dec
12 Dec
10:35 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
Fred Cisin wrote:
. . . and, it didn't behave the way the 8088
behaved if you had an
interrupt occur during execution of an instruction with multiple
"prefixes", such as a segment override along with a REP with the
"string"
instructions.
...which is part of my CPU detection code, not coincidentally.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
6 Dec
6 Dec
12:22 p.m.
New subject: V20 processor
On Sat, Dec 5, 2009 at 5:38 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
The most significant benefit was that the V20 supports
all of the non-
privileged 80286 instructions, expanding the software possibilities a
bit for old 8-bit PCs.
Yep. For most users, IIRC the most significant benefit of this was
that you could run Windows 3.0 in full VGA mode on an 8086 PC with a
V20 installed. The VGA driver used '286 instructions so this was not
normally possible.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419
AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508
2:33 p.m.
New subject: Complete Collection Sale
Greetings all. I haven't posted in ages. But it is finally time to clean
out the basement. I have over 100 classic computer systems. To my
knowledge, all but a few of them work. I will sell them individually, or I
will sell the lot.
Generally the items most people will be interested in are:
Bell+Howell Black Apple ][ with matching drives.
Two Apple ///'s each with profile drives, both working drives are noisy, but
function.
Two complete tandy model I's with expansion and monitor, complete, both
working, one monitor rolls, but works with some fiddling.
Tandy model III with external 5mg HD reconditioned by Tandy service center.
Apple IIgs with RAMFAST scsi and 100mg quantum lps 105 drive and PC
transporter with monitor. Complete set.
Apple IIgs with geniune apple high speed ssci card and geniune apply
external hd of the period, with monitor. Complete set.
Mattel Aquarius with 4 bay expansion slot and carts.
Timex sinclair 2068 with switchable speccy + Rom
CBM 2032 works but has school markings.
Platinum //e with vulcan accelerator
Atari STe with 4megs ram and ICD scsi card with both color and greyscale
monitors complete with dual boot TOS/MINT and 14400 modem.
Apple ][+ mint and working with drives.
Coleco Adam Computer complete and working with a few tapes.
Complete Coco3 with geniuen tandy RBG monitor that was made for the COCO
twin drives and expansion cartridge accesory.
Complete PCJR with multiple carts, monitor, etc and lotus 123 on cart a and
b.
Commodore Plus4
Amiga 500 in the box
Vic20 in the box with dozens of carts including ram expansion and lots of
games.
Apple //c+
The other 90 systems are run of the mill atari's both classic and XL's,
C64s, more apple's, tandys, coco's, model IIp, model 4s.
Basically I have a 17x21 room FULL.
Make me an offer I can't refuse. I'd rather them go to the community, but
next stop will be Ebay.
Please reply offlist directly to my email add with the topic in brackets,
[Computer Sale] so I can setup a special filter.
I'm sure I've forgotten some of odd ones. I'll eventually make a page with
the full list depending upon interest and the prep for ebay.
3:22 p.m.
New subject: Complete Collection Sale
Forgot an important one, TI99/4a with PEB and multiple interfaces. very
very heavy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Bill Girnius" <thedm at sunflower.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Cc: "Bill Girnius" <thedm at sunflower.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 06, 2009 1:33 PM
Subject: Complete Collection Sale
Greetings all. I haven't posted in ages. But it
is finally time to clean
out the basement. I have over 100 classic computer systems. To my
knowledge, all but a few of them work. I will sell them individually, or
I
will sell the lot.
Generally the items most people will be interested in are:
Bell+Howell Black Apple ][ with matching drives.
Two Apple ///'s each with profile drives, both working drives are noisy,
but
function.
Two complete tandy model I's with expansion and monitor, complete, both
working, one monitor rolls, but works with some fiddling.
Tandy model III with external 5mg HD reconditioned by Tandy service
center.
Apple IIgs with RAMFAST scsi and 100mg quantum lps 105 drive and PC
transporter with monitor. Complete set.
Apple IIgs with geniune apple high speed ssci card and geniune apply
external hd of the period, with monitor. Complete set.
Mattel Aquarius with 4 bay expansion slot and carts.
Timex sinclair 2068 with switchable speccy + Rom
CBM 2032 works but has school markings.
Platinum //e with vulcan accelerator
Atari STe with 4megs ram and ICD scsi card with both color and greyscale
monitors complete with dual boot TOS/MINT and 14400 modem.
Apple ][+ mint and working with drives.
Coleco Adam Computer complete and working with a few tapes.
Complete Coco3 with geniuen tandy RBG monitor that was made for the COCO
twin drives and expansion cartridge accesory.
Complete PCJR with multiple carts, monitor, etc and lotus 123 on cart a
and
b.
Commodore Plus4
Amiga 500 in the box
Vic20 in the box with dozens of carts including ram expansion and lots of
games.
Apple //c+
The other 90 systems are run of the mill atari's both classic and XL's,
C64s, more apple's, tandys, coco's, model IIp, model 4s.
Basically I have a 17x21 room FULL.
Make me an offer I can't refuse. I'd rather them go to the community, but
next stop will be Ebay.
Please reply offlist directly to my email add with the topic in brackets,
[Computer Sale] so I can setup a special filter.
I'm sure I've forgotten some of odd ones. I'll eventually make a page
with
the full list depending upon interest and the prep for ebay.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.96/2548 - Release Date: 12/06/09
01:30:00
3:25 p.m.
New subject: Complete Collection Sale
On 12/6/09, Bill Girnius <thedm at sunflower.com> wrote:
Greetings all. I haven't posted in ages. But it
is finally time to clean
out the basement. I have over 100 classic computer systems. To my
knowledge, all but a few of them work. I will sell them individually, or I
will sell the lot.
Those sound like some interesting systems - where are you?
-ethan
7 Dec
7 Dec
12:54 p.m.
New subject: Complete Collection Sale
Where are you located?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
4 Dec
4 Dec
10:29 p.m.
Dunno. But several years ago Spinrite salvaged a dead 60 gig IDE drive for me. Long enough
to get the data off. The drive is now an example of how drives are made (cut open and
exposed).
And Gibson (totally off-topic, and way beyond 10 years ago) was probably the best speaker
the San Diego Computer Society ever had at its annual Computer Fair (apologies to all the
other great speakers whom I won't name).
Vern Wright
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, geoffrey oltmans <oltmansg at bellsouth.net> wrote:
From: geoffrey oltmans <oltmansg at
bellsouth.net>
Subject: Re: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on 10 Yr. 'RULE')
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 3:09 PM
Slightly off topic, but wasn't
Spinrite shown to be pretty much a snake oil product at one
point?
________________________________
From: Vernon Wright <vern4wright at yahoo.com>
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Fri, December 4, 2009 4:29:21 PM
Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take on
10 Yr. 'RULE')
Steve Gibson (Spinrite, Shields Up, etc.) has a really good
discussion of the ZIP drive and how and when it fails.
This link takes you to his software for the problem (I
think it's one of his freebies, but I haven't used my ZIP
drives in 5+ years). But below that is his discussion of the
anatomy of the drives and the reasons for the Click (which
is what those drives ought to be renamed).
http://www.grc.com/tip/clickdeath.htm
Vern Wright
--- On Fri, 12/4/09, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
wrote:
being
From: David Griffith <dgriffi at
cs.csubak.edu>
Subject: RE: Iomega Click Of Death (was Different take
on 10 Yr. 'RULE')
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 10:30 AM
On Fri, 4 Dec 2009, Tom Gardner
wrote:
ZIP
> On 29 Nov 2009 at 14:27, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
>> How about their "Jaz" drives?
>> their "click" drives?? In which the
"click of death"
was administered
>>> DURING manufacturing.
>
> I thought the "click of death" phenomena was a problem and not a JAZ
> problem.? I also never found a good
statement of
what was the underlying
head
problem(s) that led to the "click of
death"
phenomena!? Does anyone really
> know what was going on (inner crash stop crash, retract/relaunch;
> solenoid lock/unlock, both, other) and why (loss
of
servo control probably,
> but why loose it and not regain it).?
Comments?
Pure intellectual curiosity only :-)
I had a professor who described Iomega devices as named for the
noises they make when they die.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally
read
text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
5335
days inactive
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