27 Sep
2011
27 Sep
'11
12:44 a.m.
Hi.
I have one TU-58. Doing a resume:
* The components work at 115 volts, even when you can change the PS current
to 220-240 volts.
* In appeareance the Current flows by the main board of the device (the RED
led indicates so)
* The wire wrapping is the stablished in factory (TU-58 manuals, Bitsavers)
* It has not stablished the 'boot' wire wrap for LSI-11
* I have one DEC console serial cable
* I have too a couple of Dectape II cartridges
With all these stuff, I should like to connect the TU-58 to the Serial Port
of my Laptop and manage the TU-58. The objective is:
* To put a virtual image in the Dectape II from the Laptop
* To dump the content of one Dectape II in the Laptop
The unique option similar to this that I want is one MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
I know, in addition, of the existence of some TU-58 emulators, and in fact I
use them from time to time. And I'm not sure if one of these (TU58EM) has
this option available, but sure that someone in the list knows it.
I suppose then that some analysis of the STGiz MS-DOS driver plus the
diverse emulators of the TU-58 would be sufficient to begin to construct
some kind of software for this purpose.
But it's almost sure that someone has encountered this problem in the past
years and encountered one solution for it. Probably even with only one
communications software, a good knowledge of the RSP protocol, an one binary
image.
In the other hand, I am almost sure too that I need a modification (or
better a modified plug) of the Serial Port in the Laptop (9-pin) as the
realized in the SLUs of the PDP-11 to allow the correct manage of the TU-58
from the laptop. I have the documentation of
modifications to do in the SLUs
of the PDP-11, and in fact I did a couple of
modified SLUs some time ago. In
the cas of the laptop it would be neccesary to one male-to-female plug.
The problem is the correct cabling inside it. I assume that I can do the
well-known probe-an-error but sure that exists some contrasted information
about the cable.
Thanks !
SPc.
27 Sep
27 Sep
3 a.m.
On 09/27/2011 03:44 AM, SPC wrote:
Hi.
I have one TU-58. Doing a resume:
* The components work at 115 volts, even when you can change the PS current
to 220-240 volts.
* In appeareance the Current flows by the main board of the device (the RED
led indicates so)
* The wire wrapping is the stablished in factory (TU-58 manuals, Bitsavers)
* It has not stablished the 'boot' wire wrap for LSI-11
* I have one DEC console serial cable
* I have too a couple of Dectape II cartridges
With all these stuff, I should like to connect the TU-58 to the Serial Port
of my Laptop and manage the TU-58. The objective is:
* To put a virtual image in the Dectape II from the Laptop
* To dump the content of one Dectape II in the Laptop
Warning it's slow! And it's only 512 sectors of 512bytes.
The unique option similar to this that I want is one
MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
The TU58 has no native format. It's addressed as 512byte blocks.
Any other format is imposed but the host system, for example RT11,
RSX11, VMS (VMboot and VMS).
I know, in addition, of the existence of some TU-58
emulators, and in fact I
use them from time to time. And I'm not sure if one of these (TU58EM) has
this option available, but sure that someone in the list knows it.
I suppose then that some analysis of the STGiz MS-DOS driver plus the
diverse emulators of the TU-58 would be sufficient to begin to construct
some kind of software for this purpose.
But it's almost sure that someone has encountered this problem in the past
years and encountered one solution for it. Probably even with only one
communications software, a good knowledge of the RSP protocol, an one binary
image.
It's basically a binary packet protocal.
In the other hand, I am almost sure too that I need a
modification (or
better a modified plug) of the Serial Port in the Laptop (9-pin) as the
realized in the SLUs of the PDP-11 to allow the correct manage of the TU-58
from the laptop. I have the documentation of modifications to do in the SLUs
of the PDP-11, and in fact I did a couple of modified SLUs some time ago. In
the cas of the laptop it would be neccesary to one male-to-female plug.
The problem is the correct cabling inside it. I assume that I can do the
well-known probe-an-error but sure that exists some contrasted information
about the cable.
Laptop IO and PDP11 (or VAX) serial IO are very different. First you
need to be
able to generate a "break" as the RSP uses that to establish
communications and
synchronize.
Also laptop or other PC based serial will not have DEC compatable
connectors even
of the plugs and sockets are the same. This means you have to make a
cable that matches
TXD, RXD and signal ground (tu58 uses no other).
Allison
3:52 a.m.
Thanks, Allison.
SPc.
2011/9/27 allison <ajp166 at verizon.net>
On 09/27/2011 03:44 AM, SPC wrote:
Hi.
I have one TU-58. Doing a resume:
* The components work at 115 volts, even when you can change the PS
current
to 220-240 volts.
* In appeareance the Current flows by the main board of the device (the
RED
led indicates so)
* The wire wrapping is the stablished in factory (TU-58 manuals,
Bitsavers)
* It has not stablished the 'boot' wire wrap for LSI-11
* I have one DEC console serial cable
* I have too a couple of Dectape II cartridges
With all these stuff, I should like to connect the TU-58 to the Serial
Port
of my Laptop and manage the TU-58. The objective is:
* To put a virtual image in the Dectape II from the Laptop
* To dump the content of one Dectape II in the Laptop
Warning it's slow! And it's only 512 sectors of 512bytes.
The unique option similar to this that I want is one MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one
MS-DOS storage unit. But,
what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
The TU58 has no native format. It's addressed as 512byte blocks.
Any other format is imposed but the host system, for example RT11,
RSX11, VMS (VMboot and VMS).
I know, in addition, of the existence of some TU-58 emulators, and in fact
I
use them from time to time. And I'm not sure if one of these (TU58EM) has
this option available, but sure that someone in the list knows it.
I suppose then that some analysis of the STGiz MS-DOS driver plus the
diverse emulators of the TU-58 would be sufficient to begin to construct
some kind of software for this purpose.
But it's almost sure that someone has encountered this problem in the past
years and encountered one solution for it. Probably even with only one
communications software, a good knowledge of the RSP protocol, an one
binary
image.
It's basically a binary packet protocal.
In the other hand, I am almost sure too that I need a modification (or
better a modified plug) of the Serial Port in the
Laptop (9-pin) as the
realized in the SLUs of the PDP-11 to allow the correct manage of the
TU-58
from the laptop. I have the documentation of modifications to do in the
SLUs
of the PDP-11, and in fact I did a couple of modified SLUs some time ago.
In
the cas of the laptop it would be neccesary to one male-to-female plug.
The problem is the correct cabling inside it. I assume that I can do the
well-known probe-an-error but sure that exists some contrasted information
about the cable.
Laptop IO and PDP11 (or VAX) serial IO are very different. First you
need to
be
able to generate a "break" as the RSP uses that to establish communications
and
synchronize.
Also laptop or other PC based serial will not have DEC compatable
connectors even
of the plugs and sockets are the same. This means you have to make a cable
that matches
TXD, RXD and signal ground (tu58 uses no other).
Allison
4:17 a.m.
On Tuesday (09/27/2011 at 06:00AM -0400), allison wrote:
Warning it's slow! And it's only 512 sectors of 512bytes.
I'm likely to be writing a Linux app to communicate with the TU58
very soon. I am restoring a TU58 and need a debug tool to talk to it
more conveniently than using one of my PDP-11.
So, in the next couple weeks, I might have something that can chat with the
drive and read/write some blocks.
But, it'll be for Linux. I don't get anywhere near any Microsoft OS.
Also, SPc noted,
The unique option similar to this that I want is
one MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
The TU58 has no native format. It's addressed as 512byte blocks.
Any other format is imposed but the host system, for example RT11,
RSX11, VMS (VMboot and VMS). * In appeareance the Current flows by the main board of
the device (the RED
led indicates so)
On my unit, the red LED only makes a brief flicker as the unit is being
powered up and down. Scope reveals life-- 8085 CPU is executing stuff.
I see the UART being polled, etc. so I have been believing mine is closer
to life than not.
Is the red LED supposed to come on and stay on? My impression from the
tech manual is that the red LED is a fault indicator of some sort so
I was OK with it being mostly off. If it's supposed to be mostly on,
then I have more debug to do.
I have replaced the capstan rollers in this thing and am really just
beginning the debug/restoration. I'm probably also going to find that
the first tape I put in it is going to break when it starts moving...
of the dozen or so tapes I found with the unit, four of them already
had the drive belt broken inside the tape cartridge.
Could be a lot of effort to get 512, 512-byte blocks ;-) But hey,
it's fun.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
5:25 a.m.
Great work, Chris. If you want to stay in touch to do some probes with my
TU-58, there is no problem.
I can do the testing probes with:
* One Laptop under Windows Xp with Cygwin and Mingw
* One HP Apollo 712 (PA-RISC) with Debian
* One Sunblade 100 with Solaris (8 or 10, it depends of my interest in
upgrade it)
Perhaps I could do it with HP-UX, IRIX and AIX, but it depends of the
availability of the systems. I'm pending of one equipment liquidation in my
company.
Regards
SPc.
2011/9/27 Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com>
On Tuesday (09/27/2011 at 06:00AM -0400), allison
wrote:
I'm likely to be writing a Linux app to communicate with the TU58
very soon. I am restoring a TU58 and need a debug tool to talk to it
more conveniently than using one of my PDP-11.
So, in the next couple weeks, I might have something that can chat with the
drive and read/write some blocks.
But, it'll be for Linux. I don't get anywhere near any Microsoft OS.
Also, SPc noted,
Warning it's slow! And it's only 512 sectors of 512bytes.
>The unique option similar to this that I want is one MS-DOS driver in
>SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But,
what
>I have in mind is similar but different at
the same time. I want to
manage
the TU-58
contents in DEC native format.
The TU58 has no native format. It's addressed as 512byte blocks.
Any other format is imposed but the host system, for example RT11,
RSX11, VMS (VMboot and VMS). * In appeareance the Current flows by the main
board of the device (the
RED
led indicates so)
On my unit, the red LED only makes a brief flicker as the unit is being
powered up and down. Scope reveals life-- 8085 CPU is executing stuff.
I see the UART being polled, etc. so I have been believing mine is closer
to life than not.
Is the red LED supposed to come on and stay on? My impression from the
tech manual is that the red LED is a fault indicator of some sort so
I was OK with it being mostly off. If it's supposed to be mostly on,
then I have more debug to do.
I have replaced the capstan rollers in this thing and am really just
beginning the debug/restoration. I'm probably also going to find that
the first tape I put in it is going to break when it starts moving...
of the dozen or so tapes I found with the unit, four of them already
had the drive belt broken inside the tape cartridge.
Could be a lot of effort to get 512, 512-byte blocks ;-) But hey,
it's fun.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
5:37 a.m.
On 27/09/11 7:17 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote:
On Tuesday (09/27/2011 at 06:00AM -0400), allison
wrote:
Didn't Warren Toomey already write one of these?
I saw an appendix on the TU58 command set in the VT-103 manual (which is
on Bitsavers I think).
--Toby
Warning it's slow! And it's only 512 sectors of 512bytes.
I'm likely to be writing a Linux app to communicate with the TU58
very soon. I am restoring a TU58 and need a debug tool to talk to it
more conveniently than using one of my PDP-11.
So, in the next couple weeks, I might have something that can chat with the
drive and read/write some blocks.
But, it'll be for Linux. I don't get anywhere near any Microsoft OS.
The unique option similar to this that I want is
one MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
The TU58 has no native format. It's addressed as 512byte blocks.
Any other format is imposed but the host system, for example RT11,
RSX11, VMS (VMboot and VMS). Also, SPc noted,
* In appeareance the Current flows by the main
board of the device (the RED
led indicates so)
...
Chris
5:38 a.m.
On 27/09/11 7:17 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote:
On Tuesday (09/27/2011 at 06:00AM -0400), allison
wrote:
(Following up to myself) Toomey's was a TU-58 emulator, while you want
the host side... never mind.
--T
...
Warning it's slow! And it's only 512 sectors of 512bytes.
I'm likely to be writing a Linux app to communicate with the TU58
very soon. I am restoring a TU58 and need a debug tool to talk to it
more conveniently than using one of my PDP-11.
So, in the next couple weeks, I might have something that can chat with the
drive and read/write some blocks.
But, it'll be for Linux. I don't get anywhere near any Microsoft OS.
The unique option similar to this that I want is
one MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
The TU58 has no native format. It's addressed as 512byte blocks.
Any other format is imposed but the host system, for example RT11,
RSX11, VMS (VMboot and VMS).
Chris
2:40 p.m.
On 09/27/2011 07:17 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote:
On Tuesday (09/27/2011 at 06:00AM -0400), allison
wrote:
I use a pdp-11.
Warning it's slow! And it's only 512
sectors of 512bytes.
I'm likely to be writing a Linux app to
communicate with the TU58
very soon. I am restoring a TU58 and need a debug tool to talk to it
more conveniently than using one of my PDP-11. The unique option similar to this that I want is
one MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
The TU58 has no native format. It's addressed as 512byte blocks.
Any other format is imposed but the host system, for example RT11,
RSX11, VMS (VMboot and VMS). So, in the next couple weeks, I might have something
that can chat with the
drive and read/write some blocks.
But, it'll be for Linux. I don't get anywhere near any Microsoft OS.
Also, SPc noted,
The usual problem if the PS is not failed is the drive rollers have
turned to goo.
I have yet to see one that has not. A goo roller will foul a tape.
* In appeareance the Current flows by the main
board of the device (the RED
led indicates so)
On my unit, the red LED only makes a brief flicker as the unit
is being
powered up and down. Scope reveals life-- 8085 CPU is executing stuff.
I see the UART being polled, etc. so I have been believing mine is closer
to life than not.
Is the red LED supposed to come on and stay on? My
impression from the
tech manual is that the red LED is a fault indicator of some sort so
I was OK with it being mostly off. If it's supposed to be mostly on,
then I have more debug to do.
It stays on when the system in sync with the host or task complete.
It's not only a power indicator.
Ther is a manual for the Tu58 that gives the protocal (mostly).
I have replaced the capstan rollers in this thing and
am really just
beginning the debug/restoration. I'm probably also going to find that
the first tape I put in it is going to break when it starts moving...
of the dozen or so tapes I found with the unit, four of them already
had the drive belt broken inside the tape cartridge.
Could be a lot of effort to get 512, 512-byte blocks ;-) But hey,
it's fun.
From memory..
Not that hard, basically hit it with a break, wait for an ack packet,
respond with a read block N command packet and wait for data as four
checksummed packets and a status packet.
FYI when it is sending data the host MUST be able to accept and buffer
at least 128 or 512 bytes (MRSP allows for an wait on ack for each 128 bytes
[pdp11/44 overflow fix] where the RSP protocol assumes you can buffer the
whole mess at line rate.
The protocal is a bit convoluted.
Allison
Chris
28 Sep
28 Sep
1:42 p.m.
On Tuesday (09/27/2011 at 05:40PM -0400), allison wrote:
I will too eventually but it's a lot easier for me to debug this thing on
the bench with a laptop sitting next to it than a rack full of -11 stuff
;-) My -11 stuff is not in the same room with the electronics bench.
My PS is looking OK. Good, clean +5 and +12.
OK. That's helpful info. Since I don't have it sync'd with a host
just yet, mine is off. I'll expect it to come on then once comms
are established.
I'm likely
to be writing a Linux app to communicate with the TU58
very soon. I am restoring a TU58 and need a debug tool to talk to it
more conveniently than using one of my PDP-11.
I use a pdp-11. On my unit, the
red LED only makes a brief flicker as the unit is being
powered up and down. Scope reveals life-- 8085 CPU is executing stuff.
I see the UART being polled, etc. so I have been believing mine is closer
to life than not.
The usual problem if the PS is not failed is the drive rollers have
turned to goo. I have yet to see one that has not. A goo roller will
foul a tape.
Absolutely. And I have replaced the rollers. I found "new" ones on eBay.
Interestingly, the old rollers were rusted onto the shaft of the motor and
it was a royal pain in the ... to get them free. I ended up scraping
all of the goo from the roller hub and then heating the hub with a
high power soldering iron and then quickly (and carefully) hammering
a small center punch onto the motor shaft at the center of the hub.
Eventually it popped loose. The motor shaft is steel and rusted while
the roller hub is aluminum but the rusted shaft had a real good bite
into the hub it would seem.
Is the red LED supposed to come on and stay on?
My impression from the
tech manual is that the red LED is a fault indicator of some sort so
I was OK with it being mostly off. If it's supposed to be mostly on,
then I have more debug to do.
It stays on when the system in sync with the host or task complete. It's not only a power indicator.
Got it.
Ther is a manual for the Tu58 that gives the protocal
(mostly).
Yes. I have it.
I have replaced
the capstan rollers in this thing and am really just
beginning the debug/restoration. I'm probably also going to find that
the first tape I put in it is going to break when it starts moving...
of the dozen or so tapes I found with the unit, four of them already
had the drive belt broken inside the tape cartridge.
Could be a lot of effort to get 512, 512-byte blocks ;-) But hey,
it's fun.
From memory..
Not that hard, basically hit it with a break, wait for an ack packet,
respond with a read block N command packet and wait for data as four
checksummed packets and a status packet.
FYI when it is sending data the host MUST be able to accept and buffer
at least 128 or 512 bytes (MRSP allows for an wait on ack for each 128 bytes
[pdp11/44 overflow fix] where the RSP protocol assumes you can buffer the
whole mess at line rate. From the documentation that I have, it seems pretty
straightforward. There
is a wakeup protocol discussed which is to send BREAK, then
0x04, then
another 0x04 and you should see a response (which I've forgotten at the
moment) come back.
The protocal is a bit convoluted.
But-- it seems simple which is probably all they needed then.
Thanks for the info.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
27 Sep
27 Sep
1:04 p.m.
Hi.
I have one TU-58. Doing a resume:
* The components work at 115 volts, even when you can change the PS current
to 220-240 volts.
I am pretty sure the logic and drives run of low voltages (+5V, +12V I
think). The only place you find mains is in the PSU (if you have an
internal PSU, not all TU58 units do).
* In appeareance the Current flows by the main board
of the device (the RED
led indicates so)
I thought the LED on the controller board (if that's the one you are
refering to) indicates that a self-test has passed or something like
that. It's not simply wired ot the power line.
-tony
* The wire wrapping is the stablished in factory
(TU-58 manuals, Bitsavers)
* It has not stablished the 'boot' wire wrap for LSI-11
* I have one DEC console serial cable
* I have too a couple of Dectape II cartridges
With all these stuff, I should like to connect the TU-58 to the Serial Port
of my Laptop and manage the TU-58. The objective is:
* To put a virtual image in the Dectape II from the Laptop
* To dump the content of one Dectape II in the Laptop
Are you interested in just copying image files to/from physcial TU58
tapes, or do you wnat to be able to access individual files on the tape
(which I assume requires knowledge of the OS used).
if the former, the TU58 protocol is documented in the manuals. It
shouldn't be too hard to write somethign that reads an image file one
block at a time and outputs the appropraite commands to write that block
the TU58 tape. Or vice versa.
The unique option similar to this that I want is one
MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
I am not sure what you mean here. The TU58 itself has no concept of
files, directories, etc. You access it at the block level.
-tony
2:29 p.m.
On 09/27/2011 04:04 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Your are correct it required +5 and + 12 for the logic board.
The Tu58 was packaged as a standalone with internal supply, same box but
uses the hosts
supply (variant), and it was also embedded in the VAX-11/750.
the Tu58 in the PDT11/110 was a parallel interface version but very similar.
I have all four flavors.
Yes and also power.
There are also two drive selected lights.
Allison
Hi.
I have one TU-58. Doing a resume:
* The components work at 115 volts, even when you can change the PS current
to 220-240 volts.
I am pretty sure the logic and drives run of low voltages (+5V,
+12V I
think). The only place you find mains is in the PSU (if you have an
internal PSU, not all TU58 units do).
* In
appeareance the Current flows by the main board of the device (the RED
led indicates so)
I thought the LED on the controller board (if that's the one
you are
refering to) indicates that a self-test has passed or something like
that. It's not simply wired ot the power line.
-tony
* The wire wrapping is the stablished in factory
(TU-58 manuals, Bitsavers)
* It has not stablished the 'boot' wire wrap for LSI-11
* I have one DEC console serial cable
* I have too a couple of Dectape II cartridges
With all these stuff, I should like to connect the TU-58 to the Serial Port
of my Laptop and manage the TU-58. The objective is:
* To put a virtual image in the Dectape II from the Laptop
* To dump the content of one Dectape II in the Laptop
Are you interested in just
copying image files to/from physcial TU58
tapes, or do you wnat to be able to access individual files on the tape
(which I assume requires knowledge of the OS used).
if the former, the TU58 protocol is documented in the manuals. It
shouldn't be too hard to write somethign that reads an image file one
block at a time and outputs the appropraite commands to write that block
the TU58 tape. Or vice versa.
The unique option similar to this that I want is
one MS-DOS driver in
SpareTime Gizmos, but to use the TU58 as one MS-DOS storage unit. But, what
I have in mind is similar but different at the same time. I want to manage
the TU-58 contents in DEC native format.
I am not sure what you mean here. The
TU58 itself has no concept of
files, directories, etc. You access it at the block level.
-tony
28 Sep
28 Sep
1:34 p.m.
The Tu58 was packaged as a standalone with internal
supply, same box but
uses the hosts
supply (variant), and it was also embedded in the VAX-11/750.
And the 11/730. This one has an odd layout, with one of the drives round
the side, btu AFAIK it's the normal controller board and drives on an odd
metal chassis.
-tony
5:28 p.m.
On Wed, Sep 28, 2011 at 4:34 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Yep. I have one from an 11/725 we scrapped 20+ years ago (to keep an
11/730 alive at less than DEC Field Circus rates).
It's the same mechanisms but in a
one-drive-in-front-one-drive-on-the-side box. Same controller. Same
10-pin DEC serial cable.
I use mine for slurping up real TU58s - I think the last time I did it
I either used a DOS app or a Linux app. Been so many years, I'm not
certain which. I just made raw block copies of the tape contents and
worried about file extraction on a VAX with EXCHANGE or some such.
-ethan
The Tu58 was
packaged as a standalone with internal supply, same box but
uses the hosts
supply (variant), and it was also embedded in the VAX-11/750.
And the 11/730. This one has an odd layout, with one of the drives round
the side, btu AFAIK it's the normal controller board and drives on an odd
metal chassis.
4615
days inactive
4617
days old
12 comments
6 participants
participants (6)
-
ajp166＠verizon.net -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
chrise＠pobox.com -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
spedraja＠ono.com -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au