9 Mar
2007
9 Mar
'07
8:45 a.m.
OK, so this is a pretty dumb question, but what is the 'value' of a
typical PDP/8? Now I appreciate that configuration can vary wildly and
beyond that it is a matter of one what can be located for or what your
prepared to pay, luck and circumstance etc.
In terms of basic model I was thinking either a Straight-8 or PDP8/E. Now
I know only a few years ago a reseller had a number of the latter in
stock, tested, for about 400 UK pounds each. Albeit likely with no
peripherals, just the card cage and some sort of base config.
I've always wanted to own an 8 and have recently been considering the idea
of trading some less easy to run equipment.
Cheers,
Andrew
----------------
Andrew Back
a at smokebelch.org
9 Mar
9 Mar
9:42 a.m.
OK, so this is a pretty dumb question, but what is the
'value' of a
typical PDP/8? Now I appreciate that configuration can vary wildly and
beyond that it is a matter of one what can be located for or what your
prepared to pay, luck and circumstance etc.
I think the standard answer is "whatever it's worth to you" :-).
There's a fair bit of variance in the prices of the rarer gear,
depending on the venue and the demand at any particular moment.
In terms of basic model I was thinking either a
Straight-8 or PDP8/E.
There's a world of difference between what those two are worth, I
think.
Now
I know only a few years ago a reseller had a number of the latter in
stock, tested, for about 400 UK pounds each. Albeit likely with no
peripherals, just the card cage and some sort of base config.
That sounds about right. I'd guess an 8/E would go for $1000US give
or take a couple hundred on ePay. (They also appear there several
times a year, which helps stabilize prices.)
A straight-8 would probably go for 3-5 times that. I've never seen
one available, though, so there might be some pent-up demand leading
to a bidding war (and even higher prices). I don't have much hope
of ever getting a straight-8 for my collection. (I also dont have
room for one, so I'd also have to get rid of other stuff to make
space for it.)
eBay is considered an "expensive" venue, but generally has the most
stuff available.
I've always wanted to own an 8 and have recently
been considering
the idea of trading some less easy to run equipment.
They're not at all practical, but I like them :-).
Another point is that you will have a bit of trouble locating
peripherals for them. The easiest peripherals to find are the
ones also used on pdp-11's. Terminals and RX02 are obtainable
for an 8/E pretty easily, the RX8E controller boards are around,
but sought after. Peripherals for a straight-8 would be more
of an issue. (Well, a terminal would probably be reasonably
easy :-).)
Vince
10:03 a.m.
Thanks for the replies... I should have guessed at the value of a
Straight-8 given I too have never seen one for sale and their form is of
somewhat iconic status.
An 8/E would seem much more pragmatic, and the cost from a reseller if
still stocked and not risen too much pallatable. Will look into it more
and the benefits before decided to part with other kit.
Incidentally the first computer I owned (a 2U high PDP11/03 IIRC) had an
RX02 drive. Well, it actually came with some RL drives too but my dad
reckoned mother would kill both of us if we brought those back too. The
whole lot (with lots of floppy, RL and tape media, and docs) was 50
UK pounds from a radio amateur rally (when I was 14yo, around 1989). As
it happened the machine had to go anyway - every time I accessed the
floppy drive the motor interfered with the TV downstairs and I got
shouted at! But was way cooler than my dad's Amstrad PCW8512...
Andrew
----------------
Andrew Back
a at smokebelch.org
On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:
OK, so this is
a pretty dumb question, but what is the 'value' of a typical
PDP/8? Now I appreciate that configuration can vary wildly and beyond that
it is a matter of one what can be located for or what your prepared to pay,
luck and circumstance etc.
I think the standard answer is "whatever it's worth to you" :-).
There's a fair bit of variance in the prices of the rarer gear, depending on
the venue and the demand at any particular moment.
In terms of basic model I was thinking either a
Straight-8 or PDP8/E.
There's a world of difference between what those two are worth, I think.
Now I know only a few years ago a reseller had a
number of the latter in
stock, tested, for about 400 UK pounds each. Albeit likely with no
peripherals, just the card cage and some sort of base config.
That sounds about right. I'd guess an 8/E would go for $1000US give or take
a couple hundred on ePay. (They also appear there several times a year,
which helps stabilize prices.)
A straight-8 would probably go for 3-5 times that. I've never seen one
available, though, so there might be some pent-up demand leading to a bidding
war (and even higher prices). I don't have much hope of ever getting a
straight-8 for my collection. (I also dont have room for one, so I'd also
have to get rid of other stuff to make space for it.)
eBay is considered an "expensive" venue, but generally has the most stuff
available.
I've always wanted to own an 8 and have
recently been considering the idea
of trading some less easy to run equipment.
They're not at all practical, but I like them :-).
Another point is that you will have a bit of trouble locating peripherals for
them. The easiest peripherals to find are the ones also used on pdp-11's.
Terminals and RX02 are obtainable
for an 8/E pretty easily, the RX8E controller boards are around, but sought
after. Peripherals for a straight-8 would be more of an issue. (Well, a
terminal would probably be reasonably easy :-).)
Vince
10:20 a.m.
Andrew Back wrote:
Thanks for the replies... I should have guessed at the
value of a
Straight-8 given I too have never seen one for sale and their form is of
somewhat iconic status.
An 8/E would seem much more pragmatic, and the cost from a reseller if
still stocked and not risen too much pallatable. Will look into it more
and the benefits before decided to part with other kit.
Incidentally the first computer I owned (a 2U high PDP11/03 IIRC) had an
RX02 drive.
I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular and
collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're
equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due to all the quirks and
design differences versus the more mainstream DEC stuff.
So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware or
software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running DEC systems
anyway?
I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out what it is
that makes the systems so much more popular than anything else of the time. I
feel like I'm missing some vital piece of info :-)
cheers
Jules
1:36 p.m.
I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC
stuff so popular and
collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're
equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due to all the quirks and
design differences versus the more mainstream DEC stuff.
So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware or
software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running DEC systems
anyway?
Here would be my input.
Community: It definitely helps when you're stuck
Documentation: Huge factor! As far as myself and a lot of other people I
know are concerned the DEC documentation is about the best out there.
Hardware Availability: It helps, but it depends on what you're afte, what
you're willing to pay and how patient you are
Software Availability: Is it available? Depends on multiple factors. What
you're after, luck, and who you know. There is software I'm after that I
know of one person who might have it, and they've not been able to find it.
If you want to run VMS it's fairly available. But otherwise, unless you're
looking at PDP-10 or maybe PDP-8, you're going to have an interesting time,
and most of the software for the PDP-8's and PDP-10's has been lost.
I've got the following DEC systems at home and either running or so I can
just turn them on. XP1000/667 (Primary VMS system), XP1000/500 (system to
swap in if primary dies, and for software testing), VAXstation 4000/vlc
(DECnet Area Router), VAXstation 3100/20 (building software), PDP-11/73
(testing, playing, experimenting), PDP-11/23+ (something to stack clean
cloths on).
My primary VMS system is also my home mail server, printserver, database
server, and secure webserver (I even have a wiki running on it now). I
typically also spend a lot of time on the system daily using it
interactively.
This is just a small sampling of my DEC hardware. Though much of the other
hardware has either been replaced by what I have listed here, is intended as
parts doners to keep the above running (especially the PDP-11/73), or stuff
I've never really had a chance to play with (such as my PDP-8 & DECmate III
stuff).
An interesting pair of machines are the VAXen, I actually have a VAXstation
4000/60 and /90, but prefer to use the two I have at home as the VLC is
better suited to its job, and the 3100/20 was setup before I had the better
systems (since I don't really use it, why upgrade it).
I also have a MicroVAX III in storage that has specifically been built to
handle as many types of media as possible. It would be setup, except I
don't have anywhere near the room required.
I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just
trying to work out what it is
that makes the systems so much more popular than anything else of the time. I
feel like I'm missing some vital piece of info :-)
From what I see, Commadore 64's, Apple ]['s,
and Amiga's are just as
popular, however, this list seems to have a very high
number of very DEC
oriented people. Anything else that is non-PC and non-Mac is likely to have
a farily limited following just simply due to the difficulty in getting a
working system.
I'm also interested in Commadore 64's, Apple ]['s, and Amiga's (I own
quite
a few of each), but don't really have time to play with them. A few months
ago, I did spend about a month playing with my best C64. I have very little
spare time, and the odds are if I'm going to spend it playing with a
computer these days, it's going to be adding new responsibilities to my
XP1000 which runs OpenVMS 7.3-2. I have PmWiki running on it, and have
spent the last week trying to get MediaWiki running on VMS, but am having
problems with getting it to talk to the version of MySQL running on the
system.
Zane
1:57 p.m.
On 3/9/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
If you want to run VMS it's fairly available.
What would be the most appropriate version to run on a MicroVAX II or
III? Are there installation tape media images available somewhere?
Now that I finally got a PDP-11/73 up and booting 2.11BSD I should see
if I can get the MicroVAX II up and running. It might even already
have a usable version of VMS on it. I haven't powered it up since I
acquired it. I also have a MicroVAX III CPU and memory board set that
I think I could swap into it.
-Glen
3:19 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
If you want to
run VMS it's fairly available.
What would be the most appropriate version to run on a MicroVAX II or
III? Are there installation tape media images available somewhere? 
3:25 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
In article <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at onyx.spiritone.com>,
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes:
At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have
a Q-Bus SCSI adapter.
Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has
one.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
3:52 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
In article <200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at
onyx.spiritone.com>,
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes:
It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one,
but they're all in my PDP-11's.
It's even better luck if the adapter can handle disk, tape, and CD-ROM (just
because one can do disk doesn't mean it will support CD).
Zane
At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to
have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter.
Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has
one.
4:10 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
On Fri, 9 Mar 2007, Zane H. Healy wrote:
I remember someone once patched the uVAX2000 firmware so they could
(kinda) support discs on the (not wholly implemented) SCSI. I wish I
still had a uVAX2000 - slow, but cute. I probably still have the scars
In article
<200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at onyx.spiritone.com>,
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes:
It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one,
but they're all in my PDP-11's.
It's even better luck if the adapter can handle disk, tape, and CD-ROM (just
because one can do disk doesn't mean it will support CD). At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to
have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter.
Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has
one. from trying to get the case back on the ones I had .
Don't often see those
these days...
Andrew
9:32 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
On 3/9/07, Andrew Back <andy at smokebelch.org> wrote:
I remember someone once patched the uVAX2000 firmware
so they could
(kinda) support discs on the (not wholly implemented) SCSI.
The uVAX2000 has a real 5380 chip, but the firmware side of things was
decidedly not "standard" SCSI.
I tried to fiddle with the patched ROMs a few years back, but never
managed to get it working. It would have been nice, no matter how
slow the SCSI implementation was, because it would have let me escape
RD-series-disk-Hell on those tiny boxes. At the time I was trying
this, folks were discarding 200MB-500MB SCSI disks as too small to
bother with. It would have been great to pull a full-height RD54 out
and replace it with a 500MB 3.5" disk that would be easy to stock
spares for.
Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod working?
-ethan
9:40 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
At 12:32 AM -0500 3/10/07, Ethan Dicks wrote:
Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod
working?
All mine can do (or at least could in the late 90's) is format
drives. The memory is bad, but I could still use it as a formatter.
Somehow I think it is easier, and likely cheaper to simply get a
better VAXstation, or an Alpha. Might not be as much fun, but I like
my VMS faster! :^)
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
14 Mar
14 Mar
9:15 a.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:32:59 -0500
"Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000 SCSI mod
working?
We applied that hack to a VS2k at a geek meeting some years back. It
kind of booted VMS. But VMS crashed during boot as it had no suitable
disk drivers for the VS2k SCSI. Later I tried to boot NetBSD on my
modified VS2k. It didn't work as the NetBSD boot loader doesn't
understand the VS2k SCSI hardware. At least it got as far as loading the
boot loader.
--
tsch??,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
9:40 a.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
On 3/14/07, Jochen Kunz <jkunz at unixag-kl.fh-kl.de> wrote:
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 00:32:59 -0500
"Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> wrote:
Right. The project as I remember it had two components - patched ROMs
to boot, then a patched(/new?) VMS driver for once the system got far
enough to need a driver.
It's why I think the cycle has to be to bring up VMS on a VS2000 with
an RD disk, then add in the SCSI-aware driver (PDDRIVER? PKDRIVER?),
_then_ copy it all over to a SCSI disk, _then_ worry about booting to
the SCSI disk. You could put the ROMs in first, but it won't bypass
the driver step. You'll still need a running system.
One could do all the work on a MicroVAX II, say, but unless you have
an SDI disk or a VAXcluster, or some other sort of boot volume, the
most common way to boot a MicroVAX I or II was from an RD disk anyway,
so you'd have the same sort of size issues as you would in a VS2000.
It would also be easier doing this from a VAX that already has a SCSI
interface, but at the time I was fiddling with this, it wasn't
feasible. Now, newer VAXstations aren't current technology, so they
shouldn't be fetching several thousand apiece, and are most likely
cheaper than a Qbus SCSI card (which would be another avenue).
Did anyone on the list ever get that uVAX2000
SCSI mod working?
We applied that hack to a VS2k at a geek meeting some years back.
It
kind of booted VMS. But VMS crashed during boot as it had no suitable
disk drivers for the VS2k SCSI. Later I tried to boot NetBSD on my
modified VS2k. It didn't work as the NetBSD boot loader doesn't
understand the VS2k SCSI hardware. At least it got as far as loading the
boot loader.
Interesting. I've never heard of anyone trying to bring up any flavor
of UNIX via the onboard 5380 on a VS2000; only VMS. Theoretically,
one could make it work, but I doubt anyone has put forth the effort
(and perhaps never may).
Good to hear from someone who really did fiddle with it. Thanks for replying.
-ethan
9 Mar
9 Mar
4:31 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
In article <200703092352.l29Nquhh013600 at onyx.spiritone.com>,
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes:
I believe mine was used for CD-ROM. Its a CMD controller.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
In article
<200703092319.l29NJRIg012634 at onyx.spiritone.com>,
"Zane H. Healy" <healyzh at aracnet.com> writes:
It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one,
but they're all in my PDP-11's.
It's even better luck if the adapter can handle disk, tape, and CD-ROM (just
because one can do disk doesn't mean it will support CD). At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to
have a Q-Bus SCSI adapter.
Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver 4000/300 has
one.
11 Mar
11 Mar
10:12 a.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
On 3/9/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
I'm glad you mentioned CD-ROMs on Q-Bus SCSI controllers. I didn't
occur to me previously to try that. I just gave it a try and got it
to work.
I have a Dilog SQ706A Q-Bus MSCP SCSI controller. I cabled it to a
Plextor PX-6XCS SCSI CD-ROM. I used E11 to boot the RL02 XXDP disk
image and created a bootable RD51 XXDP disk image. Then I used CDBURN
on Windows 2000 to burn the RD51 disk image to a CD-R as though the
disk image were an .ISO image. Then stuck the CD-R into the PX-6XCS
and booted it up as DU0 on the SQ706A in the 11/73 into XXDP. I
flipped the 512-byte block switch on the PX-6XCS before trying this
thinking that was probably necessary. I just flipped it back and
tried again and verified that it doesn't work without the 512-byte
block switch being set.
So now I assume that if my MicroVAX-II/III box is working OK and if I
obtain a VAX VMS installation CD I should be able to use the SQ706A in
the MicroVAX box to boot and install from the VMS CD. I'll have to
give that a try.
-Glen
I believe mine
was used for CD-ROM. Its a CMD controller.
CMD made good speedy controllers. Mine are Viking (or rebadged Vikings),
which I believe are noted for being solid, but slow.
12:03 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
At 9:12 AM -0800 3/11/07, Glen Slick wrote:
I'm glad you mentioned CD-ROMs on Q-Bus SCSI
controllers. I didn't
occur to me previously to try that. I just gave it a try and got it
to work.
I have a Dilog SQ706A Q-Bus MSCP SCSI controller. I cabled it to a
Plextor PX-6XCS SCSI CD-ROM. I used E11 to boot the RL02 XXDP disk
image and created a bootable RD51 XXDP disk image. Then I used CDBURN
on Windows 2000 to burn the RD51 disk image to a CD-R as though the
disk image were an .ISO image. Then stuck the CD-R into the PX-6XCS
and booted it up as DU0 on the SQ706A in the 11/73 into XXDP. I
flipped the 512-byte block switch on the PX-6XCS before trying this
thinking that was probably necessary. I just flipped it back and
tried again and verified that it doesn't work without the 512-byte
block switch being set.
Cool! is this the Caddy 6x drive? I collect the Plextor caddy drives
whenever I can find them. I think I'm up to 3 6x drives, and 1 8x
(which is the drive in my PDP-11). Now you also know how to get more
interesting OS's on your PDP-11 :^) Though I've yet to figure out
how to get RSTS/E to come up from a write protected CD, my memory is
feeling fuzzy this morning, but I don't think anyone else has either.
For the limited number of CD's you'll find for a PDP-11 caddy drives
work great. Basically there are the two DECUS CD's from Tim Shoppa,
and what you make yourself.
So now I assume that if my MicroVAX-II/III box is
working OK and if I
obtain a VAX VMS installation CD I should be able to use the SQ706A in
the MicroVAX box to boot and install from the VMS CD. I'll have to
give that a try.
That is correct. Do you have the Hobbyist Licenses yet? You'll
probably want to start working on that first.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com (primary) | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| MONK::HEALYZH (DECnet) | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing, |
| PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum. |
| http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/ |
9 Mar
9 Mar
6:28 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
On 3/9/07, Zane H. Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus
ones, and a Unibus one,
but they're all in my PDP-11's.
I have managed to score a Qbus SCSI adapter or two over the past few
years, but I've longed for at least one Unibus SCSI adapter. I know
they made VAXBI adapters, but when they were new, those were $10K for
disk _or_ tape, or $15K for disk _and_ tape... as such, there aren't
many of them floating around. Lots of Qbus, fewer Unibus, damn few
VAXBI.
I'd love to throw a Unibus SCSI controller into my VAX-11/750 and play
around. Except for the machine known as osu-eddie, I have very little
time on the 11/780, but I have wads and wads of time on an 11/750 -
initially as one of 30 users (8MB), later as one of 1-2 users (12MB).
I think a 11/750 makes a fine single-user VMS "workstation" ;-)
-ethan
8:56 p.m.
New subject: VMS for MicroVAX II/III (was Re: Value of a PDP/8?)
Zane H. Healy wrote:
It is definitely good luck. I have a couple Q-Bus ones, and a Unibus one,
but they're all in my PDP-11's.
Unibus SCSI... I *wish* I had one of those.
Peace... Sridhar
At least I assume you aren't lucky enough to have
a Q-Bus SCSI adapter.
Is this good or bad luck if you have one? My VAXserver
4000/300 has
one.
5:29 p.m.
On 3/9/07, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
What would be the most appropriate version to run on a
MicroVAX II or
III? Are there installation tape media images available somewhere?
Appropriate? Back in the day, the DEC-supplied choices were VMS or
Ultrix, but some folks (typically in University environments) ran
4BSD. Where I worked, we had MicroVMS 4.6 on our first MicroVAX II
(originally shipped from DEC as a MicroVAX I then upgraded for about
$20K, hardware and software), and Ultrix 1.1 then 2.0 on our BA-123
MicroVAX II.
Now that I finally got a PDP-11/73 up and booting
2.11BSD I should see
if I can get the MicroVAX II up and running. It might even already
have a usable version of VMS on it. I haven't powered it up since I
acquired it. I also have a MicroVAX III CPU and memory board set that
I think I could swap into it.
Sure. I've never owned a MicroVAX III, but I have countless hours on
MicroVAX IIs w/9MB of RAM and RD53/RD54 disks. If you are interested
in running an OS from the 1980s, the MicroVAX II and III are good
platforms. If you want to run a newer version of VMS, like 6.x, it
will tax the resources of a MicroVAX II, but is (barely) possible.
-ethan
1:51 p.m.
I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC
stuff so popular and
collectible, versus other machines of the same time period? Generally they're
I forgot to mention, the reason I like the PDP-11 so much is the wide
variety of interesting Operating Systems it can run. It's a pity I don't
really have time to play with mine any more.
Zane
2:17 p.m.
On Mar 9, 2007, at 1:20 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC
stuff so popular
and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period?
Generally they're equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO)
due to all the quirks and design differences versus the more
mainstream DEC stuff.
So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better
hardware or software availability? What do collectors *do* with
their running DEC systems anyway?
I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out
what it is that makes the systems so much more popular than
anything else of the time. I feel like I'm missing some vital piece
of info :-)
I think everyone has their own reasons. For me, it's a
combination of the PDP-11 being the first "real" computer I was
exposed to, and the fact that the way most of DEC's designs work just
"makes sense" to me in ways that many others don't.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
3:18 p.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
Andrew Back wrote:
I can only speak to my own reasons. It really comes down to 2 issues.
When I started collecting DEC hardware it was pretty cheap on the
surplus market. My 11/05 cost $50.00
US and was runnable. Another $150 and I had a pair of RX01's. The most
expensive part was RAM. 56K semiconductor RAM $200....Full address
space, priceless.
I know DEC never did semiconductor RAM for the 11/05
But I did ;-) I've still got the artwork around here
somewhere.
The cost still continues to be reasonable. Just look
at the E-pay listings for q-bus. toss out the bottom-feeders and you can
put a system together
for a few hundred.
Dec documents were (and still are) available, mostly for free. A lot of
people around here (central FL)
were running DEC most everything was just a photocopy away.
joe
Thanks for the replies... I should have guessed
at the value of a
Straight-8 given I too have never seen one for sale and their form is
of somewhat iconic status.
An 8/E would seem much more pragmatic, and the cost from a reseller
if still stocked and not risen too much pallatable. Will look into it
more and the benefits before decided to part with other kit.
Incidentally the first computer I owned (a 2U high PDP11/03 IIRC) had
an RX02 drive.
I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular
and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period?
Generally they're equally as interesting, and often more so (IMHO) due
to all the quirks and design differences versus the more mainstream
DEC stuff.
So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware
or software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running
DEC systems anyway?
I'm not knocking the DEC crowd in any way - just trying to work out
what it is that makes the systems so much more popular than anything
else of the time. I feel like I'm missing some vital piece of info :-)
cheers
Jules
6:25 p.m.
> Someone (Jules? broken attribution?) wrote:
> I feel the need to ask - what is it that makes DEC stuff so popular
> and collectible, versus other machines of the same time period?
>
> So... why? More of a community? Better documentation? Better hardware
> or software availability? What do collectors *do* with their running
> DEC systems anyway?
Familiarity - for me, as well as many members of this list, it's a
matter of accumulated experience on DEC boxes when they were new or
recently retired.
I can only speak to my own reasons. It really comes
down to 2 issues.
When I started collecting DEC hardware it was pretty cheap on the
surplus market. My 11/05 cost $50.00
US and was runnable. Another $150 and I had a pair of RX01's. The most
expensive part was RAM.
Nice start. As I've posted in the past, my start with DEC hardware
was a $35 PDP-8/L in 1982 from the Dayton Hamvention. It took me 2
years of fiddling around with it until I ran across a copy of the
module list and got it working. From there, it was to a PDP-8/a to
which I added an RX8E/RX01 then an RL8A and RL01 and a VT52.
Coincident with the PDP-8/a, I was using PDP-11s and VAXen at work, so
I was pretty well established as a DEChead between High School and my
Freshman year of College. I never got paid to program a PDP-8, but
I'm happy I barely made the cutoff to program the PDP-11 for a living
(1986-1987).
Besides early access to the hardware, I'd say the appeal was how much
cooler 12-bits and 16-bits and 32-bits was compared to my little 6502
and 1802 machines were at home. I could write "real" programs on a
minicomputer at work or poke around with noddy stuff in BASIC and 6502
assembler at home. No contest. It didn't hurt that while I was
learning PDP-11 machine language at work (typing in diagnostics with
console ODT emulators), I was also working on Unibus and Qbus
hardware. I got to learn all the low-level stuff _and_ get a paycheck
for it. I never saw an HP or Data General in the flesh until several
years after I was repairing PDP-11 boards and writing programs in
MACRO and C. Speaking of C, I learned it on an 11/750 running 4BSD in
1985. A venerable platform if ever there was one (back in the days of
"all the world's a VAX"). I learned the One True Brace formatting
standard in that environment and retain that style to this day.
So... in short - early exposure and access, then the chance to pick up
older stuff on the surplus market for cheap or free. When nobody
wanted 5MB RL01s, I was buying cheap RL01s. Later it was RL02s, then
it was entire MicroVAXen, etc. So much of it was backwards and
forwards compatible, I could play with what I could afford at home,
then take my results to work and run stuff on really expensive iron
($100K+).
Shame it's all so hard to find now.
-ethan
8:47 p.m.
From: "Ethan Dicks" <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
On 3/9/07, Patrick J. Jankowiak <recycler at
swbell.net> wrote:
And the light panel PCB is hard to work on without damaging it.
(I swear the traces are just waiting for an excuse to fall off.
I actually went to the trouble of drawing the thing in Eagle,
as I know it is only a matter of time until I need a new PCB.)
Still my favorite, though.
Vince
The 8i has several rows of lights.. very nice.
Until you have to replace 25% of them (as I did in my -8/i). Worth
the work, though.
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