11 Sep
2011
11 Sep
'11
8:24 p.m.
Hi guys,
Well, we've got a thread on desoldering kit, so I'm going to start one
on soldering stations... :)
It seems my love-hate relationship with my Antex 660TC soldering station
has finally become one of almost pure hate. I sat down to assemble a
couple of DiscFerret boards tonight, and after about 40 minutes the
handle of the iron was too hot to hold. Tried again with the other iron,
same story. If I hold it any further back, then the whole thing is
completely out of balance...
So I figure it's time for a change. Hopefully to something which won't
try and roast my fingers.
I've narrowed my choices down to two manufacturers -- OKi-Metcal and
Pace. This is basically because they're the only two "professional"
brands Farnell carry (I did look at some of the Weller soldering
stations but they don't look much better than the Antex).
I'm looking for something that'll suit SMD work -- ideally one which has
"mini-wave" soldering iron bits (aka "hoof" bits) easily available,
and
is designed for lead-free work. I do run an SnPb line as well, though
I'm slowly phasing it out (once I run out of 60-40 solder, which might
take a while...!)
At the moment the front-runners are:
- Pace WJS100 (with TD-100 and Instant Set-Back aka auto-standby).
Not overly keen on this one, seems overpriced when compared to other
Pace kit (especially when you consider that the WJS only works with
certain soldering bits and one type of handpiece)
- Pace ST50 + TD100. Seems about the same as the WJS100, but will run
the tweezer handpiece and a wider variety of bits. Catch is, I'd have to
special-order this from Pace UK if I wanted the ISB option (Farnell
don't stock the ISB "cubby" / iron stand).
- Metcal MFR-1110. Cheaper than the Pace (or so it would seem),
cheaper tips. Also seems to have "auto standby" as standard. What
concerns me is that it seems to run at a fixed temperature, though
OKi/Metcal claim that SmartHeat makes this a non-issue... I'm not
convinced...
Has anyone used any of the above, or anything similar?
Are there any other brands (or other soldering stations from the above
manufacturers) that I should look at?
Thanks,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
11 Sep
11 Sep
8:41 p.m.
On 9/11/11 5:24 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
- Metcal MFR-1110. Cheaper than the Pace (or so it
would seem), cheaper tips. Also seems to have "auto standby" as standard. What
concerns me is that it seems to run at a fixed temperature, though
OKi/Metcal claim that SmartHeat makes this a non-issue... I'm not convinced...
Has anyone used any of the above, or anything similar?
I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount work.
Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron again.
12 Sep
12 Sep
9:23 a.m.
On 2011-09-11 18:41, Al Kossow wrote:
I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount
work.
Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron
again.
Same here, bought a complete Metcal station, used on ebay, and didn't
use my Weller since. (have/had really a couple of them)
One point which wasn't mentioned so far, get from the beginning the
right bits & accessories for what you're trying to solder. That's when
the fun begins and you really feel the value of the station.
Cheers
12:39 p.m.
On 12/09/11 14:23, emanuel stiebler wrote:
On 2011-09-11 18:41, Al Kossow wrote:
Well, that settles it :)
4 votes for Metcal
2 for Hakko
1 for Pace
1 for Weller
(I counted Eric's message as 1 for Hakko and 1 for Metcal -- "I have a
Hakko, but I miss the Metcal I used at work")
I've just bought myself a Metcal MFR-1110 (apparently the replacement
for the SP-200) and a box of bits. As a test, I reworked a bunch of
joints on a stubborn old DiscFerret. Perfect every time.
The front of the handle gets a little warm, but nowhere near as warm as
the Antex (maybe 35 degrees C). Swapping bits is a piece of cake, and
can apparently be done in a "semi-hot swap" fashion. Neat.
It even handles the massive power-plane pads used for the inductors on
the DiscFerret. First time I've soldered those without having to ramp up
the temperature...
I think I'm in love.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for
surface-mount work.
Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron
again.
Same here, bought a complete Metcal station, used on ebay, and didn't
use my Weller since. (have/had really a couple of them)
One point which wasn't mentioned so far, get from the beginning the
right bits & accessories for what you're trying to solder. That's when
the fun begins and you really feel the value of the station. 
3:39 p.m.
I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount
work.
Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron again.
Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment (at least for a
hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just
mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was
that all parts were available.
-tony
6:33 p.m.
On 12 Sep 2011 at 20:39, Tony Duell wrote:
Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment
(at least for a
hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just
mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP
was that all parts were available.
I'll admit that the Metcal and Hakko stations are really tempting,
and I may yet get one. But parts for the Weller have been available
(with some minor changes) for something like a half-century. My last
replacement was the heater. Not bad for 30-odd years of use. But I
had to remember to get a new screw-on retainer for it, as the newer
heaters are a bit fatter. It took less than 10 minutes to put the
new one on.
Weller TCPs were the standard iron in Silicon Valley for many years.
But perhaps their day has come and gone and it's time to look for a
better one.
On the other hand, I never cared for their desoldering station (2
irons, one for sucking the other for soldering). I used it with an
external vacuum pump, although if you have plant air, you can use an
aspirator to generate the required vacuum. The tip kept plugging up;
you had to periodically remove the glass wool from the little glass
cartridge and keeping the thing tinned was a real battle. But at the
time, it was the best out there.
--Chuck
7:41 p.m.
On 12/09/11 20:39, Tony Duell wrote:
Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment
(at least for a
hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just
mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was
that all parts were available.
For the Metcal MFR series, you can get tips, handpieces and stands from
Farnell as standard stock items (typically next day delivery).
More unusual parts like identifier rings (plastic clips which fit on
soldering bits to identify them as having been used with lead-free or
SnPb processes) generally have to be ordered from one of the UK
distributors. I haven't tried that yet... (come on guys, I've only had
it a couple of hours!)
Cheers,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
13 Sep
13 Sep
4:21 p.m.
On 12/09/11 20:39, Tony Duell wrote:
That is not the 'level' I meant, as I am sure you know :-). I was
thinking avout things like heating elemetns (on their own), pumps (or ven
parts for said pumps) for a decoldering or hot-air station, componets for
the control system, and so on.
-tony
Since such a solderion station is a major
invenstment (at least for a
hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for them (I don't just
mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was
that all parts were available.
For the Metcal MFR series, you can get tips, handpieces and stands from
Farnell as standard stock items (typically next day delivery). 
6:24 p.m.
That is not the 'level' I meant, as I am sure you know :-). I was
thinking avout things like heating elemetns (on their
own), pumps (or ven
parts for said pumps) for a decoldering or hot-air station, componets for
the control system, and so on.
-tony
The metcal tips are self-contained induction heating elements.? The rest of the unit is,
IIRC, an approximately 13.5 MHZ RF generator and a cable.? If you open it up, it's not
too fancy inside.? About 8 years ago, I thought I was lucky when I bought a
"working" MX500 for about $75 on ebay, and of course was disappointed to receive
it DOA, and the seller basically disappeared.? Even without the schematics, it was not to
hard to figure out what was wrong when I opened it up.? The hardest part was figuring out
how to open it--I'm not a very mechanically inclined individual.? It's been
working great ever since.? Nowadays you can get working RF generators, usually the RFG-30
models, but sometimes the MX-500 models, for <$100.
If you do a patent search on assignee "metcal", the description of the unit
comes up with schematics, details of operation, etc.? Can't remember the number. . .
(Just looked it up, patent? 4626767).?
Dave
7:49 p.m.
I've been perusing the web and discovered that Weller apparently has
gone the way of most US industry--sacrificing quality for volume and
the bottom line. So new Weller perhaps is not a good idea.
Other brands not mentioned here:
JBC (apparently very good)
Pace
Ersa
Edsyn
Circuit Specialists has a Hakko 936 clone for very little ($59) that
might be worth considering for occasional use.
FWIW,
Chuck
14 Sep
14 Sep
3:33 p.m.
The metcal tips are self-c=
ontained induction heating elements.=A0 The rest of the unit is, IIRC, an a=
pproximately 13.5 MHZ RF generator and a cable.=A0 If you open it up, it's =
I asssume there's some kind of tempearture control loop, which didn't
seem to appear in the schematics in said patent.
I am not really supprised, but I might have thought this sort of device
would come with schematics and repair instructions. After all, I suspect
a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are
quite capable of fixing it.
-tony
5:57 p.m.
I asssume there's some kind of tempearture control
loop, which didn't
seem to appear in the schematics in said patent.
The temp control loop is built
into the physics of the tip.? The tip alloy
decreases conductivity at lower temps.? A
constant RF current through a coil in the tip induces currents and
heating in the tip.? As the temp rises, conductivity decreases, heating
decreases.? This provides a negative feedback loop allowing a constant tip
temperature to be set at the time of manufacture.? This effect allows the tip to maintain
a constant low temperature, but dump in huge amounts of energy (without increasing temp)
when soldering a bigger joint.? That's also why the RF unit is pretty simple.? I, too,
was surprised that there was no official service manual.? But there is stuff floating
around the net.? I will see if I can dig something up, if there's any interest.
Dave
I am not really supprised, but I might have thought this sort of device
would come with schematics and repair instructions.
After all, I suspect
a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are
quite capable of fixing it.
-tony
6:07 p.m.
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
I am not really supprised, but I might have thought
this sort of device
would come with schematics and repair instructions. After all, I suspect
a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are
quite capable of fixing it.
But, any soldered components are probably "not user serviceable"
15 Sep
15 Sep
2:30 p.m.
On Wed, 14 Sep 2011, Tony Duell wrote:
For the simple reason that I can't be using it if I am repairing it?
I'v given up asking about service manuals for modern electronic devices,
they are never available. If I can't work out how to fix it without a
manual, I won't buy it.
You know, I can rememebr when even a cheap transitor radio had a
schematic inside (or in the manual). I have an FM radio tuner where the
user manual includes schematicvs, layout diagrams, parts lists and full
alignmnet instructions. I can rememebr when you could get a proper
techncial manual for any common microcompuiter. Heck, I can remember when
car owner's manauls told you how to pull the cylinder head to 'decoke'
the engine.
Now schematics are unavaialbe and car manufacutrers perpetuate the myth
that modern cars are harder to service than those or 30 years ago (hint :
read the approriate workshop manuals, then decide, I have). What has gone
wrong???
And I realyl don't understnad why service information is not supplied
with (or at least available for) devices that are almost cetainly goign
to be owned and used by people with eelectroncis knowledge -- soldering
stations , mutlimeters, 'scopes, etc. I've still not bougth a new DMM
after my Fluke failed last year because I've yet to find a manuafactuer
who will supply a service manual.
Rant over...
-tony
I am not really supprised, but I might have
thought this sort of device
would come with schematics and repair instructions. After all, I suspect
a large majority of them are bought by electronic engineers who are
quite capable of fixing it.
But, any soldered components are probably "not user serviceable" 
14 Sep
14 Sep
11:08 a.m.
On Tue, 2011-09-13 at 21:21 +0100, Tony Duell wrote:
That is not the 'level' I meant, as I am sure
you know :-). I was
thinking avout things like heating elemetns (on their own), pumps (or ven
parts for said pumps) for a decoldering or hot-air station, componets for
the control system, and so on.
For a Metcal MFR, you don't have a heater. It's in the tip module AIUI
(or possibly in the handpiece in the form of an RF coil). Inductive
heating in other words.
As far as my Aoyue kit goes, I can get any part I need from the UK
distributor, but the system controller PCB is classed as "probably
cheaper to replace the soldering station and keep the old one for
parts". Heaters are easily available and cheap (?10 and change each),
and a piece of cake to swap out.
Pray to whatever deity you believe in (if any) if you have to replace
the handle or hose though. The connection between handle and base
station is a rubber air hose with a power cable running through the
centre... UGH. I doubt the Hakko machines are any better, though (the
Aoyue is a clone of an old Hakko design).
--
Phil.
philpem at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
15 Sep
15 Sep
2:14 p.m.
For a Metcal MFR, you don't have a heater. It's in the tip module AIUI
(or possibly in the handpiece in the form of an RF coil). Inductive
heating in other words.
Right...
As far as my Aoyue kit goes, I can get any part I need from the UK
distributor, but the system controller PCB is classed as "probably
Hang on a second. This is a soldering station, right. Which means I am
going to use it to solder things, probably PCbs. In which case, why on
earth wouldn't I be able to replace components on the control PCB of the
soldering station?
In other words, I can jsutabpout accept that the average garage mechanic
probably can't change multi-pin components on PCbs and that car
electronic repair is (officially) going to involve module replacement,
but a soldering station? The sort of person who buys and uses one of
those is, almost by definiton, the sort of person who can rework PCBs.
Pray to whatever deity you believe in (if any) if you
have to replace
I am convinced the patron saint of classic computing should be St Chad of
Hackforth.
There is, AFAIK a genuine St Chad. There is also a village called
Hackforth in the Yorkshire Dales. I don't think there's any connection
between them, but the names sound right :-)
the handle or hose though. The connection between
handle and base
station is a rubber air hose with a power cable running through the
Right... I suspect I've had worse...
-tony
13 Sep
13 Sep
5:54 p.m.
Since such a solderion station is a major invenstment (at least for a
hobbyist like me), how easy is it to get spares for
them (I don't just
mena replacemetn tips). One thing that attracted me to the Weller TCP was
that all parts were available.
-tony
I got all my tips on Ebay.? Really, I end up using the low-temp small chisel tip (I
believe the STTC-037) for almost everything, including surface mount.? Sometimes the
larger chisel tip for big joints, and rarely the conical tip for soldering tiny wires onto
small connectors, where there's just not much space.? I just scan the listings for
tips; usually several tips are sold in a batch.? It's reasonable to spend up to $10
per desired tip, counting the tips I wasn't searching for as bonuses.? The MX series
is still being made, and won't go away any time soon.? I believe you can get a whole
system on the order of $100 if you are patient, and aren't to squeamish about doing a
bit of cleaning up.
I've used the same tips for about 5 years (admittedly, not every day), and haven't
seen any degradation yet.
Dave
17 Sep
17 Sep
5 p.m.
On 09/11/2011 08:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
I am a big fan of Metcal, especially for surface-mount
work.
Once you use one, you will never want to use an ordinary soldering iron
again.
Sorry for the late entry here. I have to agree 100%. I've had a
Metcal SP-200 for about a decade now, in daily use for about half that
time. I've done side-by-side comparisons between it and a Hakko 936,
and a Weller W-TCP...They're all good irons, but the Metcal spanks both
the Hakko and the Weller. It will go with me to my grave!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
Port Charlotte, FL
8:06 p.m.
On 17 Sep 2011 at 17:00, Dave McGuire wrote:
Sorry for the late entry here. I have to agree
100%. I've had a
Metcal SP-200 for about a decade now, in daily use for about half that
time. I've done side-by-side comparisons between it and a Hakko 936,
and a Weller W-TCP...They're all good irons, but the Metcal spanks
both the Hakko and the Weller. It will go with me to my grave!
So, does anyone use the similarly-priced and featured JBC soldering
stations? How about Edsyn?
--Chuck
18 Sep
18 Sep
5:51 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 17 Sep 2011 at 17:00, Dave McGuire wrote:
A friend of mine just replaced his Hakko 939 with a JBC, although I
don't remember the model number, and says it's the best iron he's ever used.
Also, the guy who does motherboard repairs and mods at work uses a
JBC, also model unknown. Anything he can't do goes into the baller &
oven. I've used it a few times and it's very, very nice.
I'd like to beat the dead horse once more, though - I do love my
Metcal SP-200. Tips are cheap and easy to come by, and it just works,
joint after joint after joint. I think I paid a total of $180 for mine,
including 4 new tips, buying it a piece at a time off ebay in 2006.
Doc
Sorry for the late entry here. I have to
agree 100%. I've had a
Metcal SP-200 for about a decade now, in daily use for about half that
time. I've done side-by-side comparisons between it and a Hakko 936,
and a Weller W-TCP...They're all good irons, but the Metcal spanks
both the Hakko and the Weller. It will go with me to my grave!
So, does anyone use the similarly-priced and featured JBC soldering
stations? How about Edsyn? 
11 Sep
11 Sep
8:46 p.m.
Philip Pemberton wrote:
- Pace ST50 + TD100. Seems about the same as the
WJS100, but will
run the tweezer handpiece and a wider variety of bits. Catch is, I'd
have to special-order this from Pace UK if I wanted the ISB option
(Farnell don't stock the ISB "cubby" / iron stand).
Well, I can't say enough good things about the second hand Pace ST45 that
I use. A real joy.
Bill
8:59 p.m.
All,
On 12 September 2011 08:24, Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> wrote:
Hi guys,
Well, we've got a thread on desoldering kit, so I'm going to start one on
soldering stations... :)
[...]
I've narrowed my choices down to two manufacturers
-- OKi-Metcal and Pace.
This is basically because they're the only two "professional" brands
Farnell
carry (I did look at some of the Weller soldering stations but they don't
look much better than the Antex).
I have a couple of Weller WTCPTD. Purchased the second because the
first one was in Australia and I was in the UK. They have been great.
One must be close to 20 years old now and still working fine.
I'm looking for something that'll suit SMD
work -- ideally one which has
"mini-wave" soldering iron bits (aka "hoof" bits) easily available,
and is
designed for lead-free work. I do run an SnPb line as well, though I'm
slowly phasing it out (once I run out of 60-40 solder, which might take a
while...!)
I have done a little SMD work with the Weller, but the bits I have are
not really fine enough.
To deal with SnPb and Pb free solder, I keep two separate tips and
rolls of solder.
[...]
As a disclaimer, as you have probably already guessed, I am a huge fan
of the Weller irons.
Simon
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well, an engineer is not concerned with the truth; that is left to
philosophers and theologians: the prime concern of an engineer is
the utility of the final product."
Lectures on the Electrical Properties of Materials, L.Solymar, D.Walsh
12 Sep
12 Sep
1:32 a.m.
Hi Phil,
All of those units look pretty good.? I think the asymptote for soldering irons is the
size and balance of a pencil; the wands all look about the same for the best stations.
I got all my (metcal) soldering gear cheap and used on Ebay years ago, and have been glad
ever since.? Before that I had a weller WTCP, and there's no comparison.? For the same
price as the models you listed, you could pick up a used Metcal MX-500 system on Ebay,
with solder and desolder attachments, like this:?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Metcal-MX-500P-11-Power-Supply-Wand-Desoldering-DS1…
Or if you don't want to supply compressed air, you could pick up the a MX-500 with
wand and an SP-440 desoldering station about the same amount, if you are patient.
I'm a fan of the metcal stuff.? The skinny pencil sits just like a pen in the hand,
same balance and distance, really about optimal. The old stuff works just as well as their
newest offerings for everything I've come across.? I actually have th DS1 desoldering
kit, but I don't have compressed air in my home lab, so I use an SP-440 and it works
beautifully.
Dave
________________________________
From: Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk>
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 7:24 PM
Subject: Soldering stations - OKi-Metcal, Pace or something else?
Hi guys,
Well, we've got a thread on desoldering kit, so I'm going to start one on
soldering stations... :)
It seems my love-hate relationship with my Antex 660TC soldering station has finally
become one of almost pure hate. I sat down to assemble a couple of DiscFerret boards
tonight, and after about 40 minutes the handle of the iron was too hot to hold. Tried
again with the other iron, same story. If I hold it any further back, then the whole thing
is completely out of balance...
So I figure it's time for a change. Hopefully to something which won't try and
roast my fingers.
I've narrowed my choices down to two manufacturers -- OKi-Metcal and Pace. This is
basically because they're the only two "professional" brands Farnell carry
(I did look at some of the Weller soldering stations but they don't look much better
than the Antex).
I'm looking for something that'll suit SMD work -- ideally one which has
"mini-wave" soldering iron bits (aka "hoof" bits) easily available,
and is designed for lead-free work. I do run an SnPb line as well, though I'm slowly
phasing it out (once I run out of 60-40 solder, which might take a while...!)
At the moment the front-runners are:
? - Pace WJS100 (with TD-100 and Instant Set-Back aka auto-standby). Not overly keen on
this one, seems overpriced when compared to other Pace kit (especially when you consider
that the WJS only works with certain soldering bits and one type of handpiece)
? - Pace ST50 + TD100. Seems about the same as the WJS100, but will run the tweezer
handpiece and a wider variety of bits. Catch is, I'd have to special-order this from
Pace UK if I wanted the ISB option (Farnell don't stock the ISB "cubby" /
iron stand).
? - Metcal MFR-1110. Cheaper than the Pace (or so it would seem), cheaper tips. Also seems
to have "auto standby" as standard. What concerns me is that it seems to run at
a fixed temperature, though OKi/Metcal claim that SmartHeat makes this a non-issue...
I'm not convinced...
Has anyone used any of the above, or anything similar?
Are there any other brands (or other soldering stations from the above manufacturers) that
I should look at?
Thanks,
-- Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
4696
days inactive
4702
days old
23 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
aek＠bitsavers.org -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
classiccmp＠philpem.me.uk -
dfnr2＠yahoo.com -
doc＠vaxen.net -
emu＠e-bbes.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
fryers＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
philpem＠philpem.me.uk -
wh.sudbrink＠verizon.net