On Sat, 15 May 2010, Tony Duell wrote: Could somebody please give Tony a ride to it? Tony, GO! You don't need to take anything. You can meet people, see what others are up to, browse the sales area, study the exhibits, and get a feel for whether it is worth chartering a lorry for next time. How much would the minimum cost to attend be? If you have a Paypal account, some of the rest of us could make small contributions towards getting you there. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

Fred Cisin wrote: I can't speak for anyone else, but I certainly would contribute to such a purpose. Peace... Sridhar

If we knew roughly where you live someone on this list might live close enough to give you a lift. You never know, you might just like looking at other people's stuff :-) Or you might be able to offer other people some useful advice even if you did not have your tools with you. Regards Rob

http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/05/video-ipad-loading-software-onto-app…

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:17 PM, Al Kossow <aek at bitsavers.org> wrote: Well, arguably true, but I think the main novelty angle of the story here is using the very latest bit of Apple kit to load software into one of the earliest bits. And quite a fun angle it is, too, albeit of no real technical value or insight. Also, FWIW, I'm slightly surprised they'd use an MP3. I would have thought the compression would do no good at all to the digital signal encoded on the original tape. I'd have gone for something lossless, myself. Although come to that, I wouldn't be surprised if the iPad was so closed-off to the outside world that it couldn't play FLAC. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 6:28 PM, Brian Lanning <brianlanning at gmail.com> wrote: True, and I did consider that - after all, it apparently worked fine. But somehow seems subtly /wrong/ to me. It /ought/ to be uncompressed. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

On Tue, May 18, 2010 at 7:04 PM, Joachim Thiemann <joachim.thiemann at gmail.com> wrote: Exactly so, yes. FLAC <> uncompressed. It's just not /lossy/ compression. It's still highly compressed and on something like a datasette, it should achieve fairly stellar compression rates, I'd think. But I do like your idea of something that generates the signal tones -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

OK... I don't get it. How is this news now? They've connected something other than a tape player to the cassette input and played audio into the computer. It's still slow as hell. What's wrong with the disk drive again? -Ian

When I showed off a DEC GT40 vector graphics terminal at the VCF, I used a Palm III to load the Moonlander game into it, but I didn't get written up in Wired.

On Tue, 18 May 2010, Eric Smith wrote: Would they have been more interested if you had done it using APPLE products?

Tony Duell wrote: Those several million transistors may actually use fewer atoms than the 10 transistors in the cassette player when one includes packaging. I like simplicity too, but there are many ways of assessing which 'fewer' is better. We could have a big debate about it and end up demeaning ourselves by sounding like economists. I think the concept is that in 40 years the choice will be the 70-year old cassette player vs. whatever the future playback technology is, not the then-40-year-old now-current playback technology.

Tony Duell wrote: Oh, are we running out of atoms now that we need to conserve them? It's so hard to keep up with these things... John :-#)#

Unfortunately you need atoms to make an envelope to cotnain that vacuum. You also need atoms to make the various electrodes inside that envelope. Are electrons also in short supply? -tony

On Wed, 19 May 2010 20:42:33 +0100 (BST) ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote: Well. If you don't have a cassette recorder to connect to your Apple ][ you have to come up with a replacement. If you have a cassette recorder (and a cassette) you have to get the software on that cassette first. So you connect your MP3 or whatever playback device to the cassette recorder to record a tape. But in that case you can connect the whatever playback device to the Apple ][ directely. It is just the classic problem of classic computing: Transfering data from "modern" computers onto media of classic computers. Using an iPad to simulate a cassette recorder is an obvious, short and fast solution - if you have the iPad at had anyway. The only thing that irritates me: It may be funny to do that, but it is nothing special. Nothing to "phone home" about it. Therefore I find all that stir about it irritating. -- tsch??, Jochen Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

I am wondeirng who can think an 'Apple //e' -- an Apple _TWO_ e is the first of anything... No it's not, but it doesn;t make it intereting. -tony

On 5/20/10 2:36 PM, Liam Proven wrote: Wow, this is an interesting claim. Got any data to back that up? -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

On 5/20/10 2:53 PM, Liam Proven wrote: Ok, with iPhones I might believe it. But more to the point, when I replied to your post, I was distracted and misread it as your having asserted that OS X has outsold other Unices *put together*, which I now see is NOT at all what you said. Yes, absolutely. -Dave (who built an iPhone up from parts from broken ones just yesterday) -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

Chuck Guzis wrote: Ya know, I have the equipment to do that, except the piezo transducer that drives the needle in the wax recorder is cracked.

Piezo transducer? To do this properly you have to use an electromagnetic driver for recording and a carbon microphone for reproduction. Anything else is cheating. -tony

I wouild love to know how you're going to charge and discharge the capacitors in the DRAM chips of an Apple //e without usimg electricity :-) Ah yes... One of the machines that were around shortly before magnetic recodings became populer. I assume you couldn't use a peizo buzzer or speaker or something like that? -tony

Oh, I see. I though we were still talking about loading software into the Apple... My original commnet (using a carbon microphone) was intended to imply coupling that microphone to the stylus of the cylinder player and using the change in resistance of the carbon granule assembly to transfer data into the computer... -tony

By using the in-focus signal (suitably derrived from the photodetectors) and seeing how much current you have to pass through the focus coil to have the target object in focus? I wonder if that would have the freqeucny response to read a wax cylinderr? I think it should do... -tony

Tony Duell wrote: We were, as was indicated in my response.

On 5/24/10, Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com> wrote: That would bring things full-circle*. Think Apple would approve that app for the iStore? ;-) -ethan * (for those that don't already know) http://www.paulgraham.com/bluebox.html

On 5/20/10 3:29 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: You're a mean, bad man. ;) -Dave -- Dave McGuire Port Charlotte, FL

The exchange rate must be a lot better than I thought. I sitll don't see the beneift of me being there. I can do this just as well by e-mail. FWIW many of my friends are people I've never seen, let alone met... -tony

Yes, I'll be there with an exhibit featuring the Compukit UK101. I have my original highly-modified machine, another unmodified in its cardboard box, and one that I've switched to a 6809 CPU. Photos of the three UK101s at the Maker Faire are here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/anachrocomputer/4440972624 -- John Honniball coredump at gifford.co.uk

Yes, but I have one or two things they don;t, also I can take my machines apart if I want to. And they tend to work properly... -tony

Good point! It seems to be a bit like the aircraft preservation people. One of everything but nothing flies. I just hate that. If something was built to run and can run again with out damage it should. As to volunteering, it's clear that many of us would spend as much time traveling to BP as they would doing something useful whilst there. Not to mention the cost. I do have an idea. Why not farm out some of the stuff in storage to those of us who have restored a similar item in the past for themselves? I'm sure a small card saying 'Restored to working order by Joe Bloggs' would but reward enough. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich Alderson Sent: 16 May 2010 18:53 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK? TNMoC is indeed full of old systems, wonderfully so. After the DEC Legacy event in Windermere last month, Ian King and I traveled down to London, then went up to BP on the Monday. (Not their usual open day, but they took pity on us for our traveling schedule. Barney Duffy, volunteer extraordinaire, was our guide.) For a VCF event, though, isn't much of the point to show off one's own gems? TNMoC may have near as makes no difference to one of everything PC from the last 40 years, but they don't have the funds or volunteers to keep each and every one of them running, so for that kind of thing coals to Newcastle is a necessity, hmm? Just my 2d worth. Rich -----Original Message----- From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of RodSmallwood Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 8:55 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only' Subject: RE: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Coal's to Newcastle? By all accounts BP is already full of old systems. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 15 May 2010 19:37 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? 20th=20 Alas not. This is for several rasons, mostly financial. Had I heard about it early enough (why wasn't it seriously discused here) I would have tired to get along and bring one of my interesting toys. But as it is, I didn't have time to prepare anything. It would cost significant money for me to get from here to Bletchley Park, and then there's the entrance fee. I don't think it's worth it. -tony

From: RodSmallwood Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2010 11:14 PM That I think might have been missed. TNMoC are very much *not* like the preservation people, aircraft or computer or thimbles. They are, on the other hand, an entirely volunteer organization, living on contributions and grants like most museums. Real restoration of even a simple system requires monetary outlays, so limited funds have to be spent as priorities dictate, and everything can't be done all at once. And there are probably as many aircraft restorers as there are preservers. I know little old ladies living on retirement pensions who travel several hours each way to volunteer as docents or library workers at the Seattle Art Museum. Priorities. Issues of insurance, quality control, etc. etc. etc. How do they tell the serious restorer from a well-meaning screw-up? There are good reasons, even if they seem frustating to those on the outside. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Server Engineer Vulcan, Inc. 505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900 Seattle, WA 98104 mailto:RichA at vulcan.com mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.PDPplanet.org/ http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

So do I. It's also worth think about what the 'damage' could be (in the case of a classic computer, an aircraft is rather different :-)). Ok, some irreplacable chip fails. But that will not damage the appearance of the machine, so even after that you still have an artefact to put in a glass case. And the chips will fail with time whether you use them or not (they will fial sooner if you use them, most likely, but even if they are not powered upo their life ie by no means infinite!). You might as well run the machine while you can... I have a book on antique clock repairing that basically says the worst thing you can do with a (common-ish) antique clock is give it to a museum. It will never be run again, it probably won't go on show (most museums have many more artefacts than they have space to display) and so on. I feel the same way about classic computers. I'd rather they were in the hands of enthusiasts who can run them I volunteered at BP for a time some years ago. I gave up when I realised that seveal of their policies were not conducive to getting machines working _or_ keeping them in the original state. I found it more rewarding to work on my own stuff... -tony

From: RodSmallwood Sent: Monday, May 17, 2010 10:23 PM [snip] Do let me know when you know what you're talking about. Until then, I'm going to ignore you, for the sake of my blood pressure.

Tony Duell wrote: That's very much my philosophy too, though having a nice looking well kept machine is nice, having one that doesn't look quite as good but works is better. One of the reasons I have no problem breaking waranty seals, or replacing bits of a machine so that it works, even if it isn't 'original'. After all who want's an original machine that doesn't work. Hell I've even been known to build clones of original machines so that I have an example (Acorn Atom and Dragon Alpha prototype, though I do have an original Atom now). For pretty much the same reason, all the books I have, have been read even if they are reasonably valuable first editions etc. Cheers. Phill. -- Phill Harvey-Smith, Programmer, Hardware hacker, and general eccentric ! "You can twist perceptions, but reality won't budge" -- Rush.

RodSmallwood [rodsmallwood at btconnect.com] wrote: It would be sad to blow up something valuable like a PDP-1. It would be much sadder to lose the last Lancaster bomber during a test flight, especially as someone would have to be in it at the time (to say nothing about where it might end up a few seconds later); so I'm tempted to cut the aircraft restorers quite a lot more slack here :-) Antonio

On 15/05/10 19:37, Tony Duell wrote: I just priced it up... ?76.70 for an off-peak day return from Leeds to Bletchley. Google Maps reckons Bletchley Park is within spitting distance of the train station (0.1 miles or "about 2 minutes walk"... yeah, that's doable) which is nice... Figure I'll probably be trekking down for the Saturday, but I want to know what the VCF-GB opening hours are before I go booking train tickets... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

On 18/05/10 02:24, Phill Harvey-Smith wrote: I tried that -- ?141 for a pair of single tickets... You know something's wrong when it's cheaper to get a plane ticket from Leeds to London than to do the same trip by cattle-class train... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

On Tue, 18 May 2010, Philip Pemberton wrote: Travel prices can be bizarre. When my ex priced Oakland to Milwaukee (20 years ago), she could get two one way tickets for the same price as three round trip! It was also cheaper to fly to NYC with a stop in Chicago, than it was to fly to Chicago on the same flight. . . . and some airlines actually try to keep track, and void tickets if you try to use the second leg of a ticket without the first one! How long before the airlines ask for another bailout?

On 18/05/10 08:38, Andrew Back wrote: Based on what thetrainline.com and nationalrail.co.uk are spitting out, the cheapest fare available is the ?76 "advance off-peak return". Any other type of ticket just sends the price off into the stratosphere; e.g. a standard off-peak day return is ?170! Seriously, I could probably get a return plane ticket to a very nice European city for that, and still have change left over for a reasonably nice hotel room... As I said before, something's wrong when it costs more to go by train than by plane. (not that British Rail ticketing wasn't mad, but it does seem that since the privatisation it's gotten MUCH worse). -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Yes, it seems to have been very badly advertised. The fist I heard about it was a comment in passing in Computer Resurection. Alas I know the feeling all too well :-( -tony

I seem to remember that was more of a comment in passing, rather than a 'call for machines'. I was talking to Philip (Belben) about this, and he made the very reasonable comment (IMHO) that Bletchely Park was not an ideal place for this. One thing that is _not_ in short supply among classic computer enthusiasts are classic computers. What is needed for a VCF event (in his, and my, opinion) is a hall with adequate mains power. Then the enthusiasts can bring their machines and demonstrate them. Had it been somewhere I could have got to, and got a machine to, I would have dragged _something_ along. I am not sure what, but I have various interesting toys here. And of course I would have taken it apart.... As it is, I will restrict myself to giving an off-topic talk at the HPCC mini-conference... -tony

announcemnt of times/dates, no requests for people to bring along machines and/or give talks/demonstrations/whatever. Where was it officially announced? Where would I have volunteered to drag along one of my more interesting machines? -tony

----- Original Message ----- From: "Tony Duell" <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org> Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2010 7:27 PM Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Just done a little digging (up to my neck in CPU's!!) and found this on TNMOC's official site: http://www.tnmoc.org/vcf-gb.aspx It doesn't say much. There is a little more in this news article: http://tnmoc.org/36/section.aspx/135 Regards, Andrew B aliensrcooluk at yahoo.co.uk

Having looked at the appropriate web pages, I somewhat agree with you. I have serious reservations about the organisation of this event. I hadn't realised it was actually organised by Bletchley Park -- having discovered this, there is _no way_ I would waste my time attending. I hope this desn't sound like sour grapes. It appears that they have no clue about the sort of things that private collectors get up to, and the sort of people who they really should be catering for. It appears to be public show. Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of us sharing our knowledge and interest with everyone, but equally, having to explain for the 10th time in an many minutes that, no, this machine does not run Windows gets boring fast. I think back to the very successful HPCC conference in 2007. Although members of the public were welcome to atttend (I think you had to book in advance), it was a very techncial event, If you hadn't a clue about A-level (high school) mathematics, or simple electronics, or things like that you would not have got anything out of it. And that's how I feel about a VCF-type event. It should be a place for fellow enthuiasts to talk about and demonstrate the machines we all love. If others are interested, fine. But it should be pitched at a level that assumes everyone will at least know what machine code is, what a flip-flop is, etc. Some things struck me instantly. The default space for a private collector is 1m*2m. That is nowehre near large enough. I could fill that area with a collection of _handheld_ computers, and that's a minor part of my collection. I think just about any reasonable classic micro set up (keyboard, storage, monitor possibly a printer) with a sheet of text (in a large font) saying what it is and why it's interesting would occupy more than that space. And as for a minicomputer, well... There is no mention of power. Will people be able to power up their private collections? If so, how much power per 'stand'. Note that <n> 13A BS1363 sockets doesn't tell you anything. It may well be a total of 30A or less for the entire room. Which is again nowhere near enough. And what about safety? There is a slight risk of electrical failure, metal cases becoming live, etc./ What is going to be done about that? Or do the organisers (as I suspect) regard classic computers as pieces of art, not to be powered up? I found some curious statements for the flea market (or whatever you want to call it). 'No PCs' What is a PC? Do they really believe that the IBM5150 is not a significant vintage machine? And then 'No memory modules over 64K'. Is that bits, bytes, or words? If the first, I have some 96Kbit core emmeory modules in the PDP8/e on my desk. Surely _that_ is a vintage computer. If, as I suspect, it means 'bytes' then how many of the follwoing machines are not vintage : HP87, HP9000/200 series, HP Intergral, any Unibus or Qbus PDP11, any VAX, Whitechapel MG1, PERQ (any model), etc, etc, etc. I believe memory PCBs of > 64K byutes were available for all of those. And then there is the question of security. I don;t think anyone could be ecpected to man their stand for the entire day without the odd break. How do you ensure that stuff doesn't go walkabout? It would also appear that if you are looking after your own collection you wouldn't be able ot go to the talks or the flea market. I have one regret. One of my dreams was to be present at a true classic computer enthusiasts meeting. That is, a room where a number of us turn up with our own machines, discus them, exchange tips and tricks, and so on. A room with ample power. Of course the public should be admitted, but as I said earlier, it would remain a technical event. My regret is that this is not going to happen now -- ever. The style of VCF-UK seems to have been set. But I truely wish that VCF-UK is a success. -tony

On (20:29 21/05/10), Tony Duell wrote: <<SNIP>> It's not as far as I can tell. The National Museum of Computing (TNMOC) is a different organisation to Bletchley Park trust. TNMOC is located at the Bletchley Park site, however. It does, sadly. Of the most bitter variety. That because it does not meet your particular notion of what a VCF should be you decide to rubbish it is, well, rather mean spirited to put it politely. The folks concerned have very limited time and resources, and with this they achieve an awful lot. They're making a real difference when it comes to educating newer generations about the history of computing, and we'd be a lot worse off in this respect were it not for their efforts. I for one applaud that they spend weekend upon weekend, working for free and trying to rescue as much as possible and get it on show to the public, when they too could be in the comfort of their own home and nurturing their own private collections. Perhaps they could do better, and would if certain folks made offer of assistance and provided constructive criticism, rather than sitting at home pontificating and griping at the doers. For shame. Regards, Andrew -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org

[snip] I had the pleasure of meeting with TNMOC staff both at the DEC Legacy Event in Windermere and at the Bletchley Park site. I want to second Andrew's praise of the great work they have done, and add that I find them to be delightful people as well. For such as we, I think there is risk of discounting the work people like TNMOC do in bringing their work to the greater number, as distinct from sharing with the cognoscenti. While I certainly enjoy nattering with like-minded fellows about my toys, it is that former work, the sharing, that adds value to the world. Frankly, it's also more difficult: while restoring old kit is certainly challenging, it is a separate art to build a connection to a non-technical audience and help them appreciate the value of the history we are preserving. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming. Madness takes its toll - please have exact change. -- Ian

Hi All I have been interested in the response to my comments. Its clear that the event title was at lest misleading and possibility a misrepresentation. That said I may well still attend. However this situation has brought up a number of import issues. There's a suspicion that the world of computer collecting may be divided into to two groups. I'll define the two as the 'Restorers' those who put systems back into working order and the 'Preservers' who clean the outside and display non working items. A bit like dead animals pickled in formaldehyde and displayed in clear jars. Worse yet they tend to display only part of their hoard. I can't accept that storing systems out of sight in an unserviceable condition is justified. I can honestly say that every system I have powers up to some extent and most boot. Machine Misers who exhibit a small number of mostly non-working systems and try to charge the general public to look at items they do not understand are just trying to get others to fund their hobby. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 21 May 2010 20:30 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? Having looked at the appropriate web pages, I somewhat agree with you. I have serious reservations about the organisation of this event. I hadn't realised it was actually organised by Bletchley Park -- having discovered this, there is _no way_ I would waste my time attending. I hope this desn't sound like sour grapes. It appears that they have no clue about the sort of things that private collectors get up to, and the sort of people who they really should be catering for. It appears to be public show. Don't get me wrong, I am in favour of us sharing our knowledge and interest with everyone, but equally, having to explain for the 10th time in an many minutes that, no, this machine does not run Windows gets boring fast. I think back to the very successful HPCC conference in 2007. Although members of the public were welcome to atttend (I think you had to book in advance), it was a very techncial event, If you hadn't a clue about A-level (high school) mathematics, or simple electronics, or things like that you would not have got anything out of it. And that's how I feel about a VCF-type event. It should be a place for fellow enthuiasts to talk about and demonstrate the machines we all love. If others are interested, fine. But it should be pitched at a level that assumes everyone will at least know what machine code is, what a flip-flop is, etc. Some things struck me instantly. The default space for a private collector is 1m*2m. That is nowehre near large enough. I could fill that area with a collection of _handheld_ computers, and that's a minor part of my collection. I think just about any reasonable classic micro set up (keyboard, storage, monitor possibly a printer) with a sheet of text (in a large font) saying what it is and why it's interesting would occupy more than that space. And as for a minicomputer, well... There is no mention of power. Will people be able to power up their private collections? If so, how much power per 'stand'. Note that <n> 13A BS1363 sockets doesn't tell you anything. It may well be a total of 30A or less for the entire room. Which is again nowhere near enough. And what about safety? There is a slight risk of electrical failure, metal cases becoming live, etc./ What is going to be done about that? Or do the organisers (as I suspect) regard classic computers as pieces of art, not to be powered up? I found some curious statements for the flea market (or whatever you want to call it). 'No PCs' What is a PC? Do they really believe that the IBM5150 is not a significant vintage machine? And then 'No memory modules over 64K'. Is that bits, bytes, or words? If the first, I have some 96Kbit core emmeory modules in the PDP8/e on my desk. Surely _that_ is a vintage computer. If, as I suspect, it means 'bytes' then how many of the follwoing machines are not vintage : HP87, HP9000/200 series, HP Intergral, any Unibus or Qbus PDP11, any VAX, Whitechapel MG1, PERQ (any model), etc, etc, etc. I believe memory PCBs of > 64K byutes were available for all of those. And then there is the question of security. I don;t think anyone could be ecpected to man their stand for the entire day without the odd break. How do you ensure that stuff doesn't go walkabout? It would also appear that if you are looking after your own collection you wouldn't be able ot go to the talks or the flea market. I have one regret. One of my dreams was to be present at a true classic computer enthusiasts meeting. That is, a room where a number of us turn up with our own machines, discus them, exchange tips and tricks, and so on. A room with ample power. Of course the public should be admitted, but as I said earlier, it would remain a technical event. My regret is that this is not going to happen now -- ever. The style of VCF-UK seems to have been set. But I truely wish that VCF-UK is a success. -tony

You are clearly a restorer. -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 24 May 2010 20:52 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? I think that's going a bit far. It is clearly a vintage computer event. I don't think anyone could claim otherwise. However, from what I've heard Germany, it appears it will be a somewhat different sort of event. I do have sufficient reservations about the style of the event and who it appears to be aimed at that I will not be attending. I do hope the evenit is a success, though. That is entirely up to you. I've been know to refer to the latter as 'stamp collectors', particularly if they want to own every cosmetic version of a particular machine (but don't care about the internal changes). I can give a classic example of that. The HP80 financial calculator. The normal collector's guides give all sorts of cosmetic variations. What none of them point out is that there are 2 very different logic boards used. The onlder one has 7 ROM chip dice mounted in a hybrid module. The later one has 2 conventional DIL chips for the DOMs (each has 4 times the storage of each of thr original ROMs). That to me is a much more significant change... Alas I am guilty of that. The reason is that I've not had time to restore all my machines yet. Many times I've been able to get an interesting (to me) machine and if I'd waited it wouldn't still be avaiable. So I store tit unitl I get time to work on it. But my intnetion is to have all my machines in working condition in the end. -tony

Hi Tony el al. Well it's interesting to see how much of what I suspected you have confirmed from direct personal experience. On a more positive note I have a great deal of admiration for what TNMoC and the others are trying to do. The way they going about it, however leaves a lot to be desired. There is a huge amount of knowledge amongst the members of just this list. Has any one been approached by any of the preservation/restoration groups for information or assistance? If somebody says I have just restored such and such a system and I am a restoration group with the same system but not working I'd be calling the guy pretty quick. Waiting for people to volunteer will not get you the right people at the right time. If you have a system that needs fixing then find somebody who has experience and will help. Don't waste their time with travel to BP or anywhere else. Get it in a vehicle and deliver it and collect it when done. The two major issues most restorers have are space and transport. They would save more systems if they had the right transport and space to work. So if you want to be a working computer museum get yourself a big van and some hefty volunteers. Then make friends with known restorers. Horse trade parts they may need for their work on your systems. Don't be afraid to exchange items in storage for something a collector ahs and you would add to your display. The old 'the donor wouldn't like it' excuse is nonsense. Rod -----Original Message----- From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Duell Sent: 24 May 2010 20:52 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone off to VCF-UK? I think that's going a bit far. It is clearly a vintage computer event. I don't think anyone could claim otherwise. However, from what I've heard Germany, it appears it will be a somewhat different sort of event. I do have sufficient reservations about the style of the event and who it appears to be aimed at that I will not be attending. I do hope the evenit is a success, though. That is entirely up to you. I've been know to refer to the latter as 'stamp collectors', particularly if they want to own every cosmetic version of a particular machine (but don't care about the internal changes). I can give a classic example of that. The HP80 financial calculator. The normal collector's guides give all sorts of cosmetic variations. What none of them point out is that there are 2 very different logic boards used. The onlder one has 7 ROM chip dice mounted in a hybrid module. The later one has 2 conventional DIL chips for the DOMs (each has 4 times the storage of each of thr original ROMs). That to me is a much more significant change... Alas I am guilty of that. The reason is that I've not had time to restore all my machines yet. Many times I've been able to get an interesting (to me) machine and if I'd waited it wouldn't still be avaiable. So I store tit unitl I get time to work on it. But my intnetion is to have all my machines in working condition in the end. -tony

On 25/05/10 10:07, Liam Proven wrote: It's starting to sound a lot like the Real Programmers vs Quiche-Eaters argument... (and in that particular argument, I don't care whether people consider me a "real programmer" or not -- that's their opinion and they're entitled to it) I'm pretty much the same -- I keep machines around for technical or personal reasons: 1) My Sinclair/Amstrad Spectrum +2A. The first programmable computer I ever owned. I'll keep that thing around until the bitter end, simply because of the sentimental value attached to it... 2) My Acorn BBC Master. First computer I ever used -- not this specific one, but another of that type. Again, sentimental value, and it's an incredibly expandable machine. Also based on a CPU I consider to be one of the nicest ever designed (the 6502). Again: Real Programmers vs Quiche-Eaters. "Real Programmers write their code in binary with no assembler mnemonics to speak of".... That's not a Real Programmer, that's a crazy lunatic who doesn't care that his code is going to be maintainable as soon as he forgets how it works (in general, about 2 weeks after he wrote it)! If I knew this thread was going to turn into yet another flamefest, I wouldn't have bothered starting it... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

Oh, you needn't apologise. You acted or good reasons. And I have learnt a lot about certain people on this list. Absolutely. I don;t wish to attend, so what? -tony

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 9:08 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote: [Replying to me] I do use emulators sometimes, but it's not the same. I like the feel and the sounds and smells and so on of running real hardware, and I enjoy the feeling of using something that is a bit different, not just another x86 PC in a world with billions of the things. Frankly, I won't. If any of my kit dies, I'll try to fix it by board or major component level swaps, and if that's not enough, find some collector or something who'd want it rather than binning it. I'd ask around here and one or two other places to see if anyone had the time and skills and inclination to fix it, perhaps in exchange for a pint and a curry or anything, but I can't afford more than a token of gratitude, really. I get that one a lot, but usually from people who actively enjoy working on their vehicles. I detest it. I hate working with machinery, hate getting my hands dirty, and don't trust my own meagre mechanical skills. This is very hard for many an inveterate fiddler to understand, though, it seems. The few times I've tried motorcycle maintenance, I've usually got it badly wrong and done serious mechanical damage that cost many hundreds to thousands of pounds to repair. I don't even change my own oil. Primarily, social. To meet and talk to other people who share your interests; to perhaps get a club magazine or mailing list or go to club events where you can listen to talks, meet heroes or idols, and chat about the area of interest. Most of this sort of club that I'm in - which means a dozen or so - are run by volunteers, but the committee or whatever of volunteers do everything. Members occasionally join the committee but that is the only primary way of contributing. As far as I can tell, this is the norm, this is how pretty much all of these things work. What you want seems like a different type of organization altogether; something more like the Bluebell Railway, say, which has hundreds of workers doing all manner of jobs, as if they were running a transport business, only they do it for fun. But still, it's funded by thousands and thousands of members who /don't/ work and don't contribute anything except their money. I guess so. But if I were you, I'd have been flattered that so many people said that they felt that you should be there and that the event would be better if you were there. As it is, your rejection of this seems rather churlish, to be honest. It's your life; nobody is compelling you to go, but if a bunch of friends offer to sub you and take you there and back, I would have thought a better response was "thanks very much indeed, that is very nice of you, but it is not my sort of event", not "pah, they're running it wrong, I'm not interested." -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lproven at gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884 ? Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven ? LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? ICQ: 73187508

Now I can certainly relate to that. There is an 'experience' in running the real old machine. The problem is that, at least for many of the machines discussed here, you can't get another 'major component'. Well, you could get a similar machine (if you aare fortunate) and strip it for pasts, but IMHO it is better to keep as many of the machines running as possible. This, infortunately, is a big problem :-). There are very few people around (as a fraction of the total population) who can fix this stuff, and yet nobody wants to pay them. As I've mentioned before, it's financially disadvantageous for me to set up in business to fix any classic hardware..... To trace a fault on a moderately complex classic ocmnputer that the repairer has worked on before could take a couple of minutes. Or a couple of hours. For a machine he's never worekd on before, it could take weeks. So I bdoubt, alas, you'll get many takes for 'a pint'. And I guess you regard all oil as 'dirty'. I think many people assume that the things that they enjoy must be enjoyed by other people. It's not true, of course. This I do find amazing. I've worked on all sorts of things from clocks to cameras, cars to computers, and never done any serious damage. At least no in recenet years. The disasters I made whne I was younger, though... It must come with practice. And even if I say so myself I think some people are 'good with machinery' and some aren't. I don't have any 'heors or idols'. I don't care who the person is, I will listen to what they have to say and question it if I have reason to doubt it. Isn't 'chatting about the area of interest' sharing knowledge or expeience? Who gives the talks? In the clubs I'm a mamember of, they're often given by the memebers themselves. Who writes the articles in the club magazine? The members? Very strange. Or, I suspect the clubs I'm a mamber of are the strange ones.... Exactly! I really don't see how they can possibly know this. Next time I have a major piece of machinery to overhaul, I will offer to pay your travelling expensese. Want to come and get covered in oil and grease? From what you've said, I don;t think so. And I don;t think I would enjoy the VCF-UK as it has been described. I really don't see why that is such a big problem. -tony

My views entirely. Any person or organisation that is preserving classic computer can't be anything but a Good Thing. But like you I have reservations about how the THMoC are doing it. I can only speak for myself here, obviously. The only people to approach me are members of this list or members oF HPCC (who have met me face to face in genreral). Particularly not if the 'right people' dont even know what's going on.. I was prepeared ot go to BP from time to time (on average once a month, say). I was prepared to give my time for nothing. But I was not prepared to pay to visit the museum if I was working on their machines (they can darn well let me in for free). I was not prepared to buy components myself to repair their machines (if I can provide a receipt from Maplin or Farnell or whoever for the parts I've fitted, I sepcet to be paid). And I was not prepared to play guessing games working out how the machine should work when the necessary manuals were probably in the next room but I couldn't look at them. I would agree. In many cases (not all, I will grant you), the donoe doens't want to throw out a machine tht might be useful to somebody. They give it to the museum rather than taking it to landfill. They are not giing to object if it ends up i nthe hands of a collector in exchange for parts needed to reapir another machine at the museum. -tony

Could organization of this event (in spite of some flaws in publicizing it!) indicate the start of a trend there, towards paying more attention to private collectors? Although inadequately defined (howzbout: a "ten year rule"? :-), the restrictions of "no PCs", "no memory above . . . " seem to indicate a desire to put the emphasis on "classic" computers. Who wrote Amiga-OS? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com

You are correct. Dr Richards ported Tripos into a machine-independent BCPL representation called Cintpos. It will run on most systems, including x86 and PowerPC. http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mr10/Cintpos.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You can't fool me: there ain't no Sanity Clause. -- Chico Marx -------------

I think you misunderstand me. The special bit about Cintpos isn't that it's BCPL, it's that the BCPL compilers he maintains compile to a bytecode and this is machine-independent. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- "Endian Little Hate We" -- credits from Connectix Virtual PC 6 for Mac -----

On 22/05/2010 19:36, Tony Duell wrote: That really isn't true of TNMoC (though as has been pointed out that's not the same organisation as the Bletchley Park Trust). TNMoC is run almost entirely by volunteers, and I've not known them refuse any help offered. Which is why I volunteered to help at VCF; that and talking to them (and Rich and Ian and others from this list) at the DEC Legacy event. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

On 23/05/2010 18:33, Tony Duell wrote: I don't know for sure, but AFAIUI CCS is not related to either BP or TNMoC. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York

On (20:40 24/05/10), Tony Duell wrote: Your uncompromisingly monotheistic view on classic computing organisations and methods is nothing short of frightening. A. -- Andrew Back a at smokebelch.org

Fuck off. -- Will

RodSmallwood wrote: <snip> Yeah, Rod, you're right. They should just pave Bletchley Park and build a mall. I might point out that nobody in his/her right mind calls browsing an organization's website an "investigation". Doc

Have you ever been there? Or do you craft such attacks as works of pure fiction? I've been there. Your criticism is unwarranted and, as far as I can tell, baseless, other than perhaps an unnecessarily harshly stated opinion of the quality of their web presence. Your assumptions are likewise without logic or meaningful premise, for example "No sign of the operators they should have had to run them so assumed not working." When students tour our exhibit floor, I don't have them include me in the photos they take of our running restorations. Many of the volunteers do serve as docents to guide the public through the exhibits. Why would you infer otherwise? And why "behind a suitable barrier"? I'd rather get hands ON these systems - with suitable guidance, "of course." What did they do to tick you off? The only thing I can infer from your uninformed rant is that you have some sort of personal agenda against TNMOC. I think they're fine people doing a good job - and yes, one of their tasks has to be fundraising. I don't understand people who don't get that. These folks have more than a couple of VAXstations in their basement: it's an impressive collection that covers a lot of ground, both historically and physically. Just their power bill must be a fearsome thing.... -- Ian

On 24/05/10 21:04, Tony Duell wrote: This is what Perspex covers are for. Show off the innards, but keep the fools away from the live parts. Or put cardboard covers over the live parts (complete with "DANGER HIGH VOLTAGE" sticker) and leave the rest open. And then of course there are the ever-present "Please do not touch" signs... -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

I wan wondering just what is dangerous inside a working PDP8/e. Unless you have the PSU removed and opened up, all the mains is totally enclused. Quite apart from the fact that a first year studend (particularly one in a scientific or engineering subject) who sticks his fingers into a working machine deserves all he gets. -tony

Only if the battery is still good :P -- http://www.hachti.de

On 27.05.2010 17:16, Ethan Dicks wrote: The "best" I've seen so far is some tries to move the head a bit. Force just enough to feel while pulling out the carrier... I wonder if the batteries are recharged by the drive... Did not really look at that part of the schematics yet. My focus was more on servo adjustment - up to now. -- http://www.hachti.de

On 25/05/10 23:22, Pete Turnbull wrote: :-) "Verily, thou hath but little value, but the loss of a fine PDP will be met with much woe and dejection back at the shop." (the original related to "the loss of a fine test meter" and is part of the "Battery and Inverter Electrical Ten Commandments", but I thought a paraphrased version would fit here <grin>) "Ooooo, you can't have that pen! Someone might get poked in the eye! Oh, and that pencil!" -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/

[Perspex cover on a demonstration PDP8/e) Ah, that makes a lot of sense. And the second point iws what bothers me, actually, As I've said, if somebody is silly enough to stick their fingers in a working machine, they deserve a Darwin Award. Alas the HSE doesn't see it that way :-( -tony

On Tue, May 25, 2010 at 6:41 PM, Philip Pemberton <classiccmp at philpem.me.uk> wrote: There's someone I don't want writing an SMP-safe device driver for me. -ethan

I don;t, I jsut pick the right changewheels :-) -tony

Designing a perspex cover that would fit, say, an HP9100 or its plotter, that would allow me to do all the tests and demonstrations I want and still keeps j-random-public away from the mains would take a lot of work... Whcih IMHO are useless. The clueful know not to stick their fingers in an unknown machine, the clueless probably can'r read, or if they can't think the sign doesn't apoply to them. -tony

I would agree... As an aside, although I have never held a firearm, and never intend to, one thing I was taught by somebody who used a shotgun was that 'All guns are loaded unless _you_ have verified they are not'. In other words, don't assume a gun is safe ebcuase somebody has said it is. I have modified that into 'All connections are live until you've checked they are not'. You don;t touch any metal part unless you have checked it is not at a letahl voltage. Unfortunately, aas Peter Turnbull implied, the HSE doesn't agree with me :-( Many of my machines have sufficientl;y large capacitors in the mains filters that they trip such devices anyway... They also will not protect you against high voltages on the secondary side of an isolated PSU -- for example the voltages applied to cathode ray tubes in most monitors. Admittedly the current there is unlikeky to be lethal (I can give at least one counterexample, though), but... But what if the worst does happen? And it's an small kid who can't read? Yes I know such people shouldn't be running around a classic computer demonstration, which is one of my reservations about having the VCF as an add-on to a puiblic museum. And then you find yourselkf on the wrong end of a lawsuit and/or doing a battle with the unsurance company providing public liability cover. There are better things to spend time and money on... I am sure you realise I don't either. :-) -tony

Am I correct that this is a 'dedicated' event -- that is the only thing going on is the VCF. Rather than another event on a museum site where other things are going on (whcih the VCF-UK is). The point being that in the former case you are going to get almost entirely computer enthuiasts. In the latter case you could well get people who come for other things at the museum and go to the VCF to see what it's all about. Now there;s nothing wrong in attracting new people ot the hobby, but I think it does rather change the sort of things you (as an exhibitor) could do. One time when I was volunterring at BP, I was sorting out an RK05 drive. I had it out of the slides with the cover removed. A man (who was plenty old enough to know better) said 'what's that and stuck his finger towards the power supply. If I had not physically knocked him back, he would certainly have touched a live mains connection. -tony

My point is that j-random-puiblic is not likely to pay to attend a dedicated VCF event, so the people there are likely to have some clue about classic computers. Whereas people may atted a museum to see other things on show and then wander in to the VCF to see what it's all about. Such people may well then do something very silly... -tony

Hangf on a second. Are you seriously suggesting that I should not only be able t fix their machines and give my time freely for so doing, but should also be a fund raiser. Because I don't beleive anybody is going to be equally good in both roles. As you may have guessed by now, I am not the sort of person who is going to be good at spining a story to get donations. I'm the sort of person who's happiest with 'scope and logic analyser. One reason for having a club (or whatever you want to call it is that different people have differnt interstes and skills. And by putitng all the skills together, things get done. If I want to do everything myself, well, I've got a couple of hundred machines here to work on. I don not believe it was malicious. Just clueless. I never said there were. But they were charging the public an admission fee. That money had to be used to pay various expenses, and if there wasn't enough to maintain their exhibits properly then IMHO there was a degree of mismanagement. Not fraud, I do not believe for an instant that anyone was pocekting the money, but mismanagement. And it was certainly very bad practice to just take parts from anotehr machine. Oh,m sure I do that all the time in my workshop -- but then it's my machine and I know what I've done. It's less amusing to come back to a machine in the museum after a couple of weeks, find fuses missing and nobody knows what happened to them (it's particularly unamusing when you spend an hour trying to find a fualt as a result...) -tony

None of us can speak for TNMoC or explain their (alleged) rudeness. But, if they know nothing and don't care about the community of collectors/restorers, then they wouldn't be hosting a VCF, nor would Sellam allow them to do so. I'm going to speculate: perhaps Tony showed up, waltzed in, and proclaimed that he knew better than all of them. In any group or company, that sort of person would be treated rudely. He's doing the same thing now: "The only reason to attend a VCF is to privilege everyone else with MY presence, but those people aren't worthy MY time." I see a trend here.

On 24/05/2010 16:20, RodSmallwood wrote: [ ... ] Indeed. Plonk. -- Pete Peter Turnbull Network Manager University of York