23 Jul
2012
23 Jul
'12
7:11 p.m.
Is a microcode listing for the DEC RX02 floppy controller available
anywhere?
-chuck
24 Jul
24 Jul
12:36 p.m.
Is a microcode listing for the DEC RX02 floppy controller available
anywhere?
I'e neve seen an official version of it.....
YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and
disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing
to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can
stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl
machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you.
-tony
2:07 p.m.
On 07/24/2012 03:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? My old company
in Maryland hired the guy who designed that board. I didn't see much of
him, unfortunately...it seems he didn't really make the transition from
big-company (DEC) to small-company (SkyCache ~30 employees) very well.
I should see if I can find him. His name was Paul Kotchenruther. (sp?)
Nice guy.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Is a microcode
listing for the DEC RX02 floppy controller available
anywhere?
I'e neve seen an official version of it.....
YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and
disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing
to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can
stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl
machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you.
4:28 p.m.
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Are you talking about the board on the drive itself?
Yes. There is a flowchart in the RX02 technical manual, but no listing. The
RX01 TM does have a listing.
I have no RX02 from which I can get a ROM dump.
-chuck
25 Jul
25 Jul
10:31 a.m.
On Tuesday (07/24/2012 at 07:28PM -0400), Charles Dickman wrote:
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 5:07 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
I do! I have several actually and one was mamed horribly in an accident
with mice. Many of the PCB traces were etched off the board by the
liquid substance emitted by said mice. However, the PROMs are probably
still good. I'll see what I can get out of them...
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
Are you talking about the board on the drive itself?
Yes. There is a flowchart in the RX02 technical manual, but no listing. The
RX01 TM does have a listing.
I have no RX02 from which I can get a ROM dump.
12:19 p.m.
I've neve
seen an official version of it.....
YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and
disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing
to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can
stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl
machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you.
Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? My old company
6:54 p.m.
On Wednesday (07/25/2012 at 08:19PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote:
I certinly am. The upper board in the drive chassis, the oen that hinges
open. It contains a couple of 2901s and some 2911 sequencers IIRC.
(2) 2901's and (3) 2909...
I've neve seen an official version of it.....
YEars ago, I read out the ROms from an RX02 controller board and
disassmebled the code. I then hand-commented it (well, it was soemthing
to do on the train from Bristol to London :-)). Unfortunately, whilre I can
stil lfidn the hand-commented listing, I cna';t fidn the origianl
machine-readabvle listing anywhere. So I can't easily send it to you.
Are you talking about the board on the drive itself? My old company Writing a disassembler for the mcirocode wasn't
hard once I'd understood
the hardware. Thgen figuring out what the code did wasn't that hard
either, I think it took 3 or 4 train jouneys :-)
I find (4) ROM-like substances on the RX02 controller in front of me.
Three are MMI 7643-5 devices which are 1024x4 bipolar PROMs at locations
E67, E60, E48.
One is a TI TBP24S41 which is also a 1024x4 bipolar PROM at location E53.
RX02 print set here,
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rx02/MP00629_RX02_Sep78.pdf
page 22, shows them all as 7643 type so the TI part is a later substitute
I suppose.
E67 is labled "229F1".
E60 is labled "230F1".
E53 is labled "431F1".
E48 is labled "232F1".
These are not socketed so will need to be desoldered and then fed into a
programmer/reader. It looks like my DataIO System 19 will do 24S41/74S476
so I think I can read them there.
If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits?
If we'll archive them because there's no archive already anywhere else,
that's good enough reason for me.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
7:45 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits?
If we'll archive them because there's no archive already anywhere else,
that's good enough reason for me.
My original request for the listing was to aid in debugging an RX02
emulator that I wrote.
-chuck
26 Jul
26 Jul
9:32 a.m.
On Wednesday (07/25/2012 at 10:45PM -0400), Charles Dickman wrote:
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Chris Elmquist
<chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
OK. And I have seen your project and it's on my (long) list of things to
try here too. Nice work.
I will do my best to get the PROMs desoldered and code extracted over
the next week or so.
Someone else will have to disassemble the code though as I don't see
that on the short term project queue any time soon.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits?
If we'll archive them because there's no archive already anywhere else,
that's good enough reason for me.
My original request for the listing was to aid in debugging an RX02
emulator that I wrote.
12 Aug
12 Aug
3:12 p.m.
On Wednesday (07/25/2012 at 10:45PM -0400), Charles Dickman wrote:
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 9:54 PM, Chris Elmquist
<chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
I have successfully extracted the code from (4) PROMs on an RX02
controller board. There was a slight delay because I had to repair my
Data I/O System 19 and Unipak before I could do it. Thanks to Vince
and Jack for their help with Data I/O parts.
Where should I put the four image files?
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits?
If we'll archive them because there's no archive already anywhere else,
that's good enough reason for me.
My original request for the listing was to aid in debugging an RX02
emulator that I wrote. 
9:34 a.m.
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/legalize/for_bitsavers/bits/dec/rx02-proms.zip>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
10:30 p.m.
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
<http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/legalize/for_bitsavers/bits/dec/rx02-proms.zip>
http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/legalize/for_bitsavers/bits/DEC/rx02…
FTFY,
Sander
14 Aug
14 Aug
9:46 a.m.
In article <201208140530.q7E5URNB014280 at ls-al.eu>,
Sander Reiche <reiche at ls-al.eu> writes:
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
>
> <http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/legalize/for_bitsavers/bits/dec/rx0
2-proms.zip>
roms.zip
Yes, I changed the directory name to be consistent with bitsavers bits
directory. That URL will eventually die once it moves to a permanent
home on bitsavers anyway. Nothing under for_bitsavers is peremanent.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
13 Aug
13 Aug
12:13 p.m.
Where should I put the four image files?
You should probably send them to Al Kossow.
If you send copies to me, I'll start on disassembling them.
5:31 p.m.
On Monday (08/13/2012 at 08:13PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote:
Would you (or anyone else, but prefereably only one person if I have to
post it) like a copy of my RX02 listing, assuming I can lay hands on it?
I can either photocopy it and post it, or see if a friend will scan it
for me.
I've passed the baton to others with the binary images now but I think
it would be great to have a second source just to confirm that the code
I read I read from the PROMs matches somewhere else.
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
Where should I put the four image files?
You should probably send them to Al Kossow.
If you send copies to me, I'll start on disassembling them.
24 Aug
24 Aug
2:01 p.m.
On Sun, Aug 12, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> wrote:
I have successfully extracted the code from (4) PROMs on an RX02
controller board.
Thanks Chris!
With the PROM images and after customizing Eric Smith's 2900 disassembler
(Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode listing. So far it is a
one to one match with the Technical Manual flow chart.
Disassembler: http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/rx02dis.c
Uncommented listing: http://www.chdickman.com/rx02/rx02_microcode.lst
-chuck
9:34 p.m.
Charles Dickman wrote:
With the PROM images and after customizing Eric
Smith's 2900
disassembler (Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode
listing. So far it is a one to one match with the Technical Manual
flow chart.
Cool! Thanks for doing that! I was going to do it, but you beat me to
it. :-)
25 Aug
25 Aug
9:52 a.m.
On Friday (08/24/2012 at 09:34PM -0700), Eric Smith wrote:
Charles Dickman wrote:
Yes! Thanks guys. Great stuff.
--
Chris Elmquist
With the PROM images and after customizing Eric
Smith's 2900
disassembler (Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode
listing. So far it is a one to one match with the Technical Manual
flow chart.
Cool! Thanks for doing that! I was going to do it, but you beat me
to it. :-)
1:34 p.m.
With the PROM images and after customizing Eric
Smith's 2900 disassembler
(Thanks Eric), I was able to generate a microcode listing. So far it is a
one to one match with the Technical Manual flow chart.
Yesterday I posted a photocopy of the listing I produced some years ago
to a friend of mine who can scan it. Hopefully it will then be made
available...
My listing also agreed with the flowcharts in the tech manual, and it
apperas I used the same routine neames when I commented it.
-tony
26 Jul
26 Jul
9:53 a.m.
In article <20120726015423.GA2740 at n0jcf.net>,
Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes:
If I desolder these and read them, do we really have
use for the bits?
Yes, because if the proms eventually die, how will you repair the
boards without images of the proms?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
27 Jul
27 Jul
6:24 a.m.
On Thursday (07/26/2012 at 10:53AM -0600), Richard wrote:
In article <20120726015423.GA2740 at n0jcf.net>,
Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes:
I'd get the images off the second board I have ;-)
--
Chris Elmquist
If I desolder these and read them, do we really
have use for the bits?
Yes, because if the proms eventually die, how will you repair the
boards without images of the proms?
8:57 a.m.
In article <20120727132454.GA9667 at n0jcf.net>,
Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes:
On Thursday (07/26/2012 at 10:53AM -0600), Richard
wrote:
If the PROMs have reached the point in age where they are failing, you
are going to find all the PROMs are likely to be failing right around
the same time, so spare boards aren't going to help without a dump of
the PROMs.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
In article <20120726015423.GA2740 at n0jcf.net>,
Chris Elmquist <chrise at pobox.com> writes:
I'd get the images off the second board I have ;-) If I desolder these and read them, do we really
have use for the bits?
Yes, because if the proms eventually die, how will you repair the
boards without images of the proms? 
12:10 p.m.
On 7/27/2012 9:57 AM, Richard wrote:
If the PROMs have reached the point in age where they
are failing, you
are going to find all the PROMs are likely to be failing right around
the same time, so spare boards aren't going to help without a dump of
the PROMs.
However you can check then for bad bits with the proms.
Ben.
12:26 p.m.
In article <5012E7A9.7060703 at jetnet.ab.ca>,
ben <bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca> writes:
On 7/27/2012 9:57 AM, Richard wrote:
I don't see how that's feasible since you won't know which of the two
proms that differ are bad.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
If the PROMs have reached the point in age where
they are failing, you
are going to find all the PROMs are likely to be failing right around
the same time, so spare boards aren't going to help without a dump of
the PROMs.
However you can check then for bad bits with the proms.
Ben.
26 Jul
26 Jul
12:10 p.m.
I certinly am.
The upper board in the drive chassis, the oen that hinges
open. It contains a couple of 2901s and some 2911 sequencers IIRC.
(2) 2901's and (3) 2909... Writing a disassembler for the mcirocode
wasn't hard once I'd understood
the hardware. Thgen figuring out what the code did wasn't that hard
either, I think it took 3 or 4 train jouneys :-)
I find (4) ROM-like substances on the RX02 controller in front of me.
Three are MMI 7643-5 devices which are 1024x4 bipolar PROMs at locations
E67, E60, E48.
One is a TI TBP24S41 which is also a 1024x4 bipolar PROM at location E53.
RX02 print set here,
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/disc/rx02/MP00629_RX02_Sep78.pdf
page 22, shows them all as 7643 type so the TI part is a later substitute
I suppose.
E67 is labled "229F1".
E60 is labled "230F1".
E53 is labled "431F1".
E48 is labled "232F1".
These are not socketed so will need to be desoldered and then fed into a
programmer/reader. It looks like my DataIO System 19 will do 24S41/74S476
so I think I can read them there.
I read them without desoldering, but it was a pain. If you look at the
printset, you'll see the OE/ line of the seqeuncers is connected to an
inverter, the input of which is pulled high. So if you pull that input
low, the sequencers outputs are disabled and stop driving the ROM address
pins. So did that, then put a test clip on each ROM i turn, sequenced
the address pins and captured the data.
If I desolder these and read them, do we really have use for the bits?
I really should still have sump of them around here somewhere...
-tony
1:43 p.m.
On 07/26/2012 03:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Yes, you';re right. It's been a long time... Many of the 3rd-party Qbus
floppy controlelrs that did an RX02 format on normal SA800 drives used a
pair of 2901s and a 2910
Heh. Many 3rd-party Qbus *anything* controllers that did *any* format
used a pair (or a quad) of 2901s and a 2910! ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I certinly am. The upper board in the drive chassis,
the oen that hinges
open. It contains a couple of 2901s and some 2911 sequencers IIRC.
(2) 2901's and (3) 2909...
3:54 p.m.
On Thursday (07/26/2012 at 08:10PM +0100), Tony Duell wrote:
In this case, the board is not in system and is in pretty bad shape from
the mouse abuse so I'm OK with taking them off the board. I think
that's a shorter path in this situation.
or maybe that disassembler for the 2900 you wrote? :-)
Chris
--
Chris Elmquist
These are not socketed so will need to be desoldered and then fed into a
programmer/reader. It looks like my DataIO System 19 will do 24S41/74S476
so I think I can read them there.
I read them without desoldering, but it was a pain. If you look at the
printset, you'll see the OE/ line of the seqeuncers is connected to an
inverter, the input of which is pulled high. So if you pull that input
low, the sequencers outputs are disabled and stop driving the ROM address
pins. So did that, then put a test clip on each ROM i turn, sequenced
the address pins and captured the data. If I desolder
these and read them, do we really have use for the bits?
I really should still have sump of them around here somewhere...
27 Jul
27 Jul
12:44 p.m.
I really
should still have sump of them around here somewhere...
or maybe that disassembler for the 2900 you wrote? :-)
10:53 p.m.
Chris Elmquist wrote:
If I desolder these and read them, do we really have
use for the bits?
I've written a 2901 disassembler before. It was for something that used
a custom sequencer rather than the 2909, but it wouldn't be hard to hack
it up to use the 2909. So if Tony doesn't have the code for his
disassembler handy, I could hack one together fairly quickly.
I've been considering doing such a thing anyhow for the UDA50, KDA50,
and HSC microcode. IIRC, they use two 2910 sequencers for two
independent threads of execution.
28 Jul
28 Jul
2:18 a.m.
On 07/28/2012 01:53 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
Chris Elmquist wrote:
That would be breat! But wait, aren't the HSCs all PDP-11 based? I
know the HSC50 has an F11 in it, and the HSC70 (and later) use a J11; is
there also a bit-slice processor in there?
If I desolder these and read them, do we really
have use for the bits?
I've written a 2901 disassembler before. It was for something that used
a custom sequencer rather than the 2909, but it wouldn't be hard to hack
it up to use the 2909. So if Tony doesn't have the code for his
disassembler handy, I could hack one together fairly quickly.
I've been considering doing such a thing anyhow for the UDA50, KDA50,
and HSC microcode. IIRC, they use two 2910 sequencers for two
independent threads of execution.
Neat!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:34 a.m.
Really? It interleaved fetch / execute with two sequencers. Quite
sophisticated,
but it does make sense if they both ran the same code and the operations
took some time, or you had multiple drives to service.
As I type this, it is apparent to me, that this is the only way to
go.to reduce part count and eliminate duplicate firmware.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On 07/28/2012 01:53 AM, Eric Smith wrote:
Chris Elmquist wrote:
That would be breat! But wait, aren't the HSCs all
PDP-11 based? I
know the HSC50 has an F11 in it, and the HSC70 (and later) use a J11; is
there also a bit-slice processor in there?
If I desolder these and read them, do we really
have use for the bits?
I've written a 2901 disassembler before. It was for
something that used
a custom sequencer rather than the 2909, but it wouldn't be hard to hack
it up to use the 2909. So if Tony doesn't have the code for his
disassembler handy, I could hack one together fairly quickly.
I've been considering doing such a thing anyhow for the UDA50, KDA50,
and HSC microcode. IIRC, they use two 2910 sequencers for two
independent threads of execution.
Neat!
-Dave
1:55 p.m.
I wrote:
I've been considering doing such a thing anyhow
for the UDA50, KDA50,
and HSC microcode.
IIRC, they use two 2910 sequencers for two
independent threads of execution.
jimpdavis wrote:
Really? It interleaved fetch / execute with two
sequencers. Quite
sophisticated,
but it does make sense if they both ran the same code and the
operations took some time, or you had multiple drives to service.
As I type this, it is apparent to me, that this is the only way to
go.to reduce part count and eliminate duplicate firmware.
Although the two microsequencers executed code from the same PROMs, they
did not execute the same code or perform the same function. One is used
for the bus interface, and one is used for the drive interface.
1:50 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
That would be breat! But wait, aren't the HSCs all
PDP-11 based? I
know the HSC50 has an F11 in it, and the HSC70 (and later) use a J11;
is there also a bit-slice processor in there?
Yes, all of the SDI/STI channel cards, and the CI interface, have
dual-microsequencer bit slice processors.
1:56 p.m.
On 07/28/2012 04:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote:
Oh wow, I did NOT know that. I've never torn into an HSC to that
level. I ran one at work eons ago, an HSC50...I knew there was an F11
in there, and I always wondered HOW THE HELL they got that kind of
performance on all of those channels, shooting all that data around,
with just an F11 (at, what, ~14MHz?) chugging away under the hood.
VERY cool!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
That would be breat! But wait, aren't the
HSCs all PDP-11 based? I
know the HSC50 has an F11 in it, and the HSC70 (and later) use a J11;
is there also a bit-slice processor in there?
Yes, all of the SDI/STI channel cards, and the CI interface, have
dual-microsequencer bit slice processors.
3:05 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote about the HSC50:
I knew there was an F11
in there, and I always wondered HOW THE HELL they got that kind of
performance on all of those channels, shooting all that data around,
with just an F11 (at, what, ~14MHz?) chugging away under the hood.
Yes, the F11 (or
J11 in newer HSCs) never even sees the actual data.
That's all done by the bit slice processors and other dedicated hardware.
3:14 p.m.
On 07/28/2012 06:05 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote about the HSC50:
Wow! Very nice indeed. Thanks for the info. That's an awesome bit
of HSC internals info I never knew.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I knew there was an F11
in there, and I always wondered HOW THE HELL they got that kind of
performance on all of those channels, shooting all that data around,
with just an F11 (at, what, ~14MHz?) chugging away under the hood.
Yes, the F11 (or J11 in newer HSCs) never even sees the actual data.
That's all done by the bit slice processors and other dedicated hardware. 
4 Aug
4 Aug
6:55 a.m.
New subject: Anyone have a QBUS AAV11 they will part with?
Hi,
I found an AAV11 on ebay for $100. Seems like a lot, but maybe that's a
reasonable price.
I was curious if anyone here has a QBUS AAV11 they don't need... (either
-A or -C, either will work)
I want to convince my 14yo that he can write a video game in fortran and
it seemed like RT-11
with a D/A connected to a scope (x,y + z intensity) might be a good
place to start. At least,
that's how I got started :-)
(a year after I got my BS I ran into a professor I know and he told me
he had to confiscate some
pdp-11 floppy disks because all of the geology grad students were
spending all their time playing a
spacewar clone I wrote for a lab pdp-11. I had to laugh - I had
forgotten all about that program)
-brad
4273
days inactive
4305
days old
39 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
brad＠heeltoe.com -
chd＠chdickman.com -
chrise＠pobox.com -
eric＠brouhaha.com -
jimpdavis＠gorge.net -
legalize＠xmission.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
reiche＠ls-al.eu