1 Apr
2020
1 Apr
'20
12:08 a.m.
I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
Can anyone tell me where to find out?
Thanks
Rob
1 Apr
1 Apr
6:26 a.m.
Does it have an Mxxxx number on the handle? Those shows up in the option-module list, but
2-5-2 part numbers don't.
paul
On Apr 1, 2020, at 3:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
Can anyone tell me where to find out?
Thanks
Rob
6:42 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Koning <paulkoning at comcast.net>
Sent: 01 April 2020 14:27
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Robert Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>;
General
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
Does it have an Mxxxx number on the handle? Those shows up in the option-
module list, but 2-5-2 part numbers don't.
Unfortunately not.
Regards
Rob
paul
> On Apr 1, 2020, at 3:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
<cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
wrote:
>
> I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000
VLC.
It turns out
that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model
60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The
part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it
works in.
> Can anyone tell me where to find out?
>
>
>
> Thanks
>
>
>
> Rob
> 
6:48 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:08, Rob Jarratt via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
Can anyone tell me where to find out?
Your posts are reminding me that I must set up and test my 3 (!)
4000VLCs. I really regret giving away my 4000/60 now. It's lost
somewhere inside Red Hat Farnborough. :'(
I think the 4000VLC takes 80ns FP-mode DRAM with parity.
Something like this:
https://www.itechdevices.co.uk/ms40-ba-hp-64mb-ecc-mem-4-x-16mb-simms.html
(N.B. I think they don't know the difference between parity RAM and ECC RAM.)
Can you give us as much identifying info on your DIMMs as you've got?
Pictures on IMGUR or something would be helpful so long as they are
high-enough resolution to read the text.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
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7:11 a.m.
This is the listing:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/22362…
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk <cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org> On Behalf Of Liam Proven via
cctalk
Sent: 01 April 2020 14:48
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 09:08, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000 VLC.
It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model
60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The
part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it
works in.
Can anyone tell me where to find out?
Your posts are reminding me that I must set up and test my 3 (!) 4000VLCs. I
really regret giving away my 4000/60 now. It's lost somewhere inside Red Hat
Farnborough. :'(
I think the 4000VLC takes 80ns FP-mode DRAM with parity.
Something like this:
https://www.itechdevices.co.uk/ms40-ba-hp-64mb-ecc-mem-4-x-16mb-
simms.html
(N.B. I think they don't know the difference between parity RAM and ECC
RAM.)
Can you give us as much identifying info on your DIMMs as you've got?
Pictures on IMGUR or something would be helpful so long as they are high-
enough resolution to read the text.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
7:39 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
This is the listing:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/22362…
That is... not very informative. :-(
I also note that the listing just says VS4000 and does not specify a model.
It could be one of 5 different models, all of different speeds: a
4000/60, 90, 90A, 96 or VLC.
Could you just put the DIMM onto a flatbed scanner or something?
The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to me. That is slow
by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns,
80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a
4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or
4000/96.
Speeds from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAXstation#VAXstation_4000_Model_VLC
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
8:24 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to
me. That is slow
by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns,
80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a
4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or
4000/96.
Also the Mitsubishi 41000 is a 1-Mibit part, so the module is 1MiB (or
2MiB if double-sided). So you just need to figure out which DEC systems
used such SIMMs. If 2MiB, then DECstation 2100/3100 might be a candidate
and these would be MS01-AA, also working with DECstation 5000/1xx and
Personal DECstation 5000/xx systems (and probably some VAX machines too).
BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :)
Maciej
8:27 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 17:24, Maciej W. Rozycki <macro at linux-mips.org> wrote:
BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :)
Oh wow! Thank you!
*Blushes* :-)
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
12:26 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 1, 2020 at 9:28 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 17:24, Maciej W. Rozycki
<macro at linux-mips.org>
wrote:
Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :) I was at FOSDEM, but too
preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full
gauntlet.
Warner
BTW, nice talk at FOSDEM 2020, I was there. :)
Oh wow! Thank you!
2 Apr
2 Apr
2:24 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 21:26, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
Now
I'm going to have to find that talk... :) I was at FOSDEM, but too preoccupied with
my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full gauntlet.
I know. Your talk was directly before mine in the same room, and I
particularly enjoyed it, as I mentioned in my blog about the
conference. :-)
This is the blog post:
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69210.html
And my speaker's notes, video links etc. are here:
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69099.html
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
9 a.m.
On Thu, Apr 2, 2020 at 3:25 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 21:26, Warner Losh <imp at
bsdimp.com> wrote:
Now I'm going to have to find that talk... :) I was at FOSDEM, but too
preoccupied with my own talk to go to other talks and run the room too full
gauntlet.
I know. Your talk was directly before mine in the same room, and I
particularly enjoyed it, as I mentioned in my blog about the
conference. :-)
This is the blog post:
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69210.html
And my speaker's notes, video links etc. are here:
https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/69099.html
Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after my
talk...
Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column xterms due to 24x80
25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80 column
3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)
Warner
3 Apr
3 Apr
4:03 a.m.
On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh <imp at bsdimp.com> wrote:
Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after my talk...
I understand. I was the same, and went to the caf? for a couple of beers. :-)
Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80 column
xterms due to 24x80 25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored the 25x80
column 3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe their
existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th century which automated
the looms of the 18th century... :)
I did know about that story (this one:
http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
a lot of controversy around it...
https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/5629/why-did-80x25-becom…
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548
And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
slot, in any case.
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
9:04 a.m.
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 AM Liam Proven via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh <imp at
bsdimp.com> wrote:
Yea, it isn't as straight a line as I paint it...
This explanation ignores that terminals like the VT52 pre-date the PC world
and were made for some custom gear that DEC engineers made that had no
relationship to NTSC. VT-52 was 1974 and had 80x24 lines. The Apple ][ was
also designed for the TV, but wasn't 24x80 because most TVs at the time
couldn't cope, but even it had custom CRTs and even on those custom CRTs
there was no 80 column mode standard. But the VT-52 was just a reflection
of the VT-50 which was 80x12 lines which was a reflection of the
Datapoint-2200 which was introduced in 1970 which was 80x12 lines as well.
DEC copied this, I've been told in classes in school ("the early terminals"
is all I recall now), but I have no good references between the dots here.
So the connection between 029 punch cards and terminals is clear... But
beyond that back to hollerith and the census to the 029 punch cards is less
clear...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548
Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after
my
talk...
I understand. I was the same, and went to the caf? for a couple of beers.
:-)
Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80
column xterms due to 24x80
25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored
the 25x80 column
3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)
I did know about that story (this one:
http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
a lot of controversy around it...
And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
slot, in any case.
Ah, that's true... And the whole 80 column thing is pervasive today as a
standard for any reason...
Warner
4 Apr
4 Apr
6:04 a.m.
Back to the original topic, someone suggested the memory would fit a DECstation 2100. They
were right! I have done a short post about it
https://robs-old-computers.com/2020/04/04/memory-for-a-decstation-2100/. Thanks for the
suggestion :-)
Regards
Rob
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 PM +0100, "Warner Losh via cctalk" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, Apr 3, 2020 at 5:04 AM Liam Proven via cctalk
wrote:
On Thu, 2 Apr 2020 at 18:00, Warner Losh wrote:
Yea, it isn't as straight a line as I paint it...
This explanation ignores that terminals like the VT52 pre-date the PC world
and were made for some custom gear that DEC engineers made that had no
relationship to NTSC. VT-52 was 1974 and had 80x24 lines. The Apple ][ was
also designed for the TV, but wasn't 24x80 because most TVs at the time
couldn't cope, but even it had custom CRTs and even on those custom CRTs
there was no 80 column mode standard. But the VT-52 was just a reflection
of the VT-50 which was 80x12 lines which was a reflection of the
Datapoint-2200 which was introduced in 1970 which was 80x12 lines as well.
DEC copied this, I've been told in classes in school ("the early terminals"
is all I recall now), but I have no good references between the dots here.
So the connection between 029 punch cards and terminals is clear... But
beyond that back to hollerith and the census to the 029 punch cards is less
clear...
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21340548
Thanks! Nice talk! I wish I'd stuck around but I was kinda fried after
my
talk...
I understand. I was the same, and went to the caf? for a couple of beers.
:-)
Surprised you didn't mention that we had 80
column xterms due to 24x80
25x80 terminals from the 70s and 80s. But this mirrored
the 25x80 column
3270s from the 60s which mirrored cards which were 80 columns which owe
their existence to Hollerith adapting the Jacquard looms from the 19th
century which automated the looms of the 18th century... :)
I did know about that story (this one:
http://exple.tive.org/blarg/2019/10/23/80x25/ ) but there seems to be
a lot of controversy around it...
And I always find I need to cut a lot of material to fit the time
slot, in any case.
Ah, that's true... And the whole 80 column thing is pervasive today as a
standard for any reason...
Warner
1 Apr
1 Apr
8:31 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
> This is the listing:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/22362…
My VLC has a number of memory modules but they do not have any DEC part
number on them at all.
The board has "PC72N-9GG" and "JAPAN MH1M36ADJ-8" printed on it.
One side has 8 chips each marked M5M44400AJ 221SK1K-7. Note that unlike
the photo, there is no "horizontal" chip in the middle.
The other side has four chips each marked M5M41000BJ 224GE04-8. (I think
it's four ... I've just put the machine back :-))
A nearby DECdirect has:
MS40-BA: VLC 8MB upgrade
MS44L-BA: VS4000-60 8MB upgrade
MS44-DA: VS4000-60 32MB upgrade
MS44L-BC: VS4000-90 16MB upgrade
MS44-DC: VS4000-90 64MB upgrade
So even that doesn't help (since you really want the 2-5-2 part number,
as that's what you'll usually find on the module).
I did have a quick hunt on the net for IPBs for any of these systems,
but with no luck. manx shows a few service manuals but they had the MS4x
numbers.
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
antonio at acarlini.com
9:23 a.m.
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote:
I did have a quick hunt on the net for IPBs for any of
these systems, but with
no luck. manx shows a few service manuals but they had the MS4x numbers.
The look does match MS01-AA though as shown in Figure 5-9 on page 5-16 of
"DECstation 5000 Model 100 Series Maintenance Guide", EK-PM32G-MG-003 (aka
pm32gmg3.pdf). OTOH a single module from an MS01-AA pair is listed as FRU
57-30735-02 there, so it may not be compatible after all.
I have several of MS01-AA modules, but all in remote locations, so I
won't be able to check them anytime soon (given the current situation).
Maciej
9:16 a.m.
I have a copy of the DECDirect catalog dating back to somewhere in the
90's, and it runs under W98 on a VM under SuSE!
I search for the 2-5-2 part number with no results, although it has
MS01,MS02, MD42, and MS-62.
I used to have a cross reference to 2-5-2 numbers somewhere and if I
find it I will have another try.,
Sorry!
Nigel
On 01/04/2020 10:39, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 at 16:13, Rob Jarratt
<robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com> wrote:
--
Nigel Johnson
MSc., MIEEE
VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU
Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept!
You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591
If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday
This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it
will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system
administrators along the way.
Nigel Johnson <nw.johnson at ieee.org>
Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
This is the listing:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VIntage-DEC-VS4000-memory-SIMM-50-19464-02/22362…
That is... not very informative. :-(
I also note that the listing just says VS4000 and does not specify a model.
It could be one of 5 different models, all of different speeds: a
4000/60, 90, 90A, 96 or VLC.
Could you just put the DIMM onto a flatbed scanner or something?
The -12 on the chip part number implies 120ns RAM to me. That is slow
by modern standards -- before EDO came in, PCs tended to take 70ns,
80ns was slow and 60ns was fast. 120ns would be quick enough for a
4000/60 or 4000/90, marginal for a 4000/90a and too slow for a VLC or
4000/96.
Speeds from:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VAXstation#VAXstation_4000_Model_VLC
8:31 a.m.
On 04/01/2020 02:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a
VAXstation 4000 VLC.
It turns out that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model 60,
but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The part
number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it works in.
Can anyone tell me where to find out?
Is it possible the board is defective? Does it have
tantalum capacitors? A VERY well-known failure
mechanism of these is that they will work fine for years,
but if left unpowered for about two years, they will fail to
a shorted condition when powered on again.
In surface mount style, they will be little yellowish blocks
with a bar engraved or printed on one end.
Locating the one or two bad ones is an exercise in major
frustration!
Jon
11:24 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Elson <elson at pico-systems.com>
Sent: 01 April 2020 16:32
To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com>; General
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Identifying Machine for DEC Memory
On 04/01/2020 02:08 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote:
> I mistakenly bought some memory thinking it was for a VAXstation 4000
VLC.
It turns out
that it isn't. It physically fits a VAXstation 4000 Model
60, but putting it in that machine the machine fails to power up. The
part number is 50-19464-02, and I am unable to identify what machine it
works in.
Can anyone tell me where to find out?
Is it possible the board is defective? Does it have tantalum capacitors? well-known failure mechanism of these is that they
will work fine for
years, but
if left unpowered for about two years, they will fail
to a shorted
condition when
powered on again.
In surface mount style, they will be little yellowish blocks with a bar
engraved
or printed on one end.
Locating the one or two bad ones is an exercise in major frustration!
It is entirely possible that they are defective. I tried using a DMM to
measure the resistance across each of the capacitors. None showed a short,
but it could be that I am unable to establish proper contact. I noticed some
suggestions that they may be for a DECstation, I will dig mine out and see
if they work there.
Thanks
Rob
Jon
1504
days inactive
1507
days old
18 comments
8 participants
participants (8)
-
a.carlini＠ntlworld.com -
elson＠pico-systems.com -
imp＠bsdimp.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
macro＠linux-mips.org -
nw.johnson＠ieee.org -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com