14 Jan
2011
14 Jan
'11
7:09 a.m.
Eric wrote:
>> There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code.
They use a US variant of
>> the ITA2 five-level code.
>> Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until
>> the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2.
Tim wrote:
> That's a little like saying nobody actually
uses ASCII since 1968,
we're all really
> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true
but not common usage.
Eric wrote:
No, it's not much like that at all. Baudot code
used significantly
different character encodings than ITA2, such that a Baudot device and
an ITA2 device will not interoperate in any meaningful fashion.
ASCII-63, ASCII-67, ASCII-68, and ANSI X3.4 have only minor variations
and will generally interoperate reasonably well.
I'm not disagreeing that the academically correct term is ITA #2. (Interestingly
most web page hits today call it "ITA 2" or "ITA2" but the 70's
and earlier
books call it "ITA #2" when they are being pedantic.)
I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level
TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although
technically incorrect.
Sort of like when I know the people who used and maintained what they
called a 11/74, and then I see folks here telling me that no, it's really
A 11/70MP :-). Yeah, in a certain aspect that may be what the paperwork called
it. But really everybody called it the 11/74. When I'm told that the
academically correct word for something, is different than what everyone
actually called it at the time, and I see Wikipedia etc. going for academically
correct rather than "actual working term", it sometimes feels like history
that I lived is being redefined underneath me by some sort of pedantic streak.
Another recent example of a different character set being redefined underneath
Me: On Wikipedia, the morse code for -...- is defined as "double dash" with a
Possible keyboard equivalent of "equals sign", something I never heard
till recently. I called it "BT" with a bar
Over top for most of half a century now. I don't doubt that some CCITT standard
Called it double dash in the past, just that me and the guys I know who use
Morse every day, never called it that.
This isn't new to me. I remember getting involved in altmode vs escape key arguments
In the distant past. I always called it altmode, what right does anyone else
Have to call it escape? :-))))). Big smileys, because I discovered that three
Different ASCII codes (0174, 0175 and 033) were being used and I didn't know until
Much much later.
Tim.
14 Jan
14 Jan
7:22 a.m.
In article <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450BA1169F55 at EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>,
"Shoppa, Tim" <tshoppa at wmata.com> writes:
I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to
distinguish a 5-level
TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although
technically incorrect.
Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up here occasionally.
Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9.
But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are
talking about.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
7:38 a.m.
Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up
here occasionally.
Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9.
But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are
talking about.
It is just a way for some people to mouth off.
And the thing is that even they are not using the absolute correct
nomenclature, as defined by the official MIL STD.
--
Will
7:41 a.m.
On Fri, Jan 14, 2011 at 08:22:24AM -0700, Richard wrote:
In article <B136EDE3DF5EC441B6F08E0A7AB872450BA1169F55 at
EX2K7-CMS-1.wmata.local>,
"Shoppa, Tim" <tshoppa at wmata.com> writes:
The funniest example I saw of that was in the Radio Amateurs of Canada (RAC)
magazine 'The Canadian Amateur' (TCA). One article was the pedantic discussion
of shell sizes vs. pin counts and hence DB-9 should be a DE-9, the other
article was with a schematic showing a DB-9.
I was amused.
- 73 Diane VA3DB
--
- db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db
I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you
had to distinguish a 5-level
TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although
technically incorrect.
Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up here occasionally.
Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9.
But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are
talking about. 
2:57 p.m.
On Fri, 14 Jan 2011, Richard wrote:
Kind of like the DB-25/DB-9 discussion that comes up
here occasionally.
Yes, technically DB-9 is not the right term and it should be DE-9.
But if you say DE-9, noone except for pedants knows WTF you are
talking about.
When somebody talks about a "DB-15 VIDEO connector", are they talking
about a DE-15 or a DA-15 (both of which are (or at least have been) used
for video. When I needed an adapter from DA15 TO DE15, what should I call
it? What's the best eBay search query for it? For that matter, unless we
explicitly state the gender of the two ends of it, what does that "TO" mean?
It may be (understatement) futile to try to educate the world to the
correct terminology, but if we don't, then it continually gets harder to
successfully differentiate ANYTHING.
Should we accept people referring to a Macintosh diskette as a "3 and a
quarter inch hard disk"?
OB_Godwin: Baby Bush called Al-Quaeda "fascist". Are they?
Bill Maher lost his TV show for saying that "cowards" was not the most
accurate name to call the 9/11 assholes.
Why are the REPUBLICAN states the "RED STATES"? Nobody remembers when the
Republicans chanted "Better dead than red!"?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:24 p.m.
New subject: Red vrs Blue (very off topic)..was Character set pedanticness
Why are the REPUBLICAN states the "RED
STATES"? Nobody remembers when the
Republicans chanted "Better dead than red!"?
Very off-topic I know but this has always puzzelled me? Here in New Zealand
our main conservative party is associated with BLUE and our more left wing
Labour party with RED. Same in the UK I believe. In the US it seems to be
the other way around. Socialism is often associated with red in a political
sense so how an earth did RED get associated with the American Republican
party??
Terry (Tez)
15 Jan
15 Jan
9:55 a.m.
When somebody talks about a "DB-15 VIDEO connector", are they talking
about a DE-15 or a DA-15 (both of which are (or at least have been) used
for video. When I needed an adapter from DA15 TO DE15, what should I call
I have seen the DE15 connector called an 'HDB15'. ARGH!. But it might be
the right name ot use if you'ere dealing with the local PC shop...
it? What's the best eBay search query for it?
For that matter, unless we
Probalby soemthing involving 'Macintosh' and 'VGA' :-)
explicitly state the gender of the two ends of it,
what does that "TO" mean?
It may be (understatement) futile to try to educate the world to the
correct terminology, but if we don't, then it continually gets harder to
successfully differentiate ANYTHING.
I woudlagree. I always try to use the correct terms if I know them, even
if they are not the onescommonly used. However, I also try to accept
incorrect terms if it's clear what is meant. If somebody asks me for the
pinout of the 'DB9' [1] connector on the HP Portable Plus, I don't just
replay that there's no such thing. Instead I get out the techref and tell
them the pinout of the DE9 serial port. And I call it a DE9 in my reply.
[1] $deity that was hard for me to type.
-tony
14 Jan
14 Jan
7:47 a.m.
How about "low density" floppy disks?
(ducks and runs)
________________________________
From: "Shoppa, Tim" <tshoppa at wmata.com>
To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Fri, January 14, 2011 9:09:05 AM
Subject: Character set pedanticness (was Re: Teletype)
Eric wrote:
>> There are no Teletypes that use Baudot code.
They use a US variant of
>> the ITA2 five-level code.
>> Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used until
>> the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2.
Tim wrote:
> That's a little like saying nobody actually
uses ASCII since 1968,
we're all really
> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically true
but not common usage.
Eric wrote:
No, it's not much like that at all. Baudot code
used significantly
different character encodings than ITA2, such that a Baudot device and
an ITA2 device will not interoperate in any meaningful fashion.
ASCII-63, ASCII-67, ASCII-68, and ANSI X3.4 have only minor variations
and will generally interoperate reasonably well.
I'm not disagreeing that the academically correct term is ITA #2. (Interestingly
most web page hits today call it "ITA 2" or "ITA2" but the 70's
and earlier
books call it "ITA #2" when they are being pedantic.)
I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level
TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII. Although
technically incorrect.
Sort of like when I know the people who used and maintained what they
called a 11/74, and then I see folks here telling me that no, it's really
A 11/70MP :-). Yeah, in a certain aspect that may be what the paperwork called
it. But really everybody called it the 11/74. When I'm told that the
academically correct word for something, is different than what everyone
actually called it at the time, and I see Wikipedia etc. going for academically
correct rather than "actual working term", it sometimes feels like history
that I lived is being redefined underneath me by some sort of pedantic streak.
Another recent example of a different character set being redefined underneath
Me: On Wikipedia, the morse code for -...- is defined as "double dash" with a
Possible keyboard equivalent of "equals sign", something I never heard
till recently. I called it "BT" with a bar
Over top for most of half a century now. I don't doubt that some CCITT standard
Called it double dash in the past, just that me and the guys I know who use
Morse every day, never called it that.
This isn't new to me. I remember getting involved in altmode vs escape key
arguments
In the distant past. I always called it altmode, what right does anyone else
Have to call it escape? :-))))). Big smileys, because I discovered that three
Different ASCII codes (0174, 0175 and 033) were being used and I didn't know
until
Much much later.
Tim.
12:37 p.m.
On 2011 Jan 14, at 7:09 AM, Shoppa, Tim wrote:
Eric wrote:
(In concurrence:)
A former list member, Tom Jennings, wrote a treatise on character code
development from Morse to ASCII
http://wps.com/J/codes/index.html
From this, at the time it was created the Murray code was building on
the principles of the Baudot code (fixed character lengths of 5 'bits'
and simple two-state 'bits'), in contrast to the Morse(-style) codes
(variable length characters and variable length primary symbols).
While the Murray code might better have been referred to as a
'Baudot-style' code, one can surmise that in the context of the times
(early-1900s), the significant point for general reference was not the
details of the encoding but distinguishing it from Morse codes. The
'-style' was implicit or dropped for simplicity of use and it was just
referred to as 'Baudot' code.
Some minor changes were made to the Murray encodings and it became the
ITA #2, but referring to it as Baudot code continued for general
reference. In other words (like so many other things), both terms would
seem reasonable or 'correct' depending on the perspective one is coming
from.
>> There are no Teletypes that use Baudot
code. They use a US variant
>> of
>> the ITA2 five-level code.
>> Baudot code was only used until about 1901. Murray code was used
>> until
>> the 1930s. Everything after that used ITA2.
Tim wrote:
> That's a little like saying nobody
actually uses ASCII since 1968,
we're all really
> Using ANSI_X3.4-1968 or later. Technically
true but not common usage.
Eric wrote:
No, it's not much like that at all. Baudot
code used significantly
different character encodings than ITA2, such that a Baudot device and
an ITA2 device will not interoperate in any meaningful fashion.
ASCII-63, ASCII-67, ASCII-68, and ANSI X3.4 have only minor variations
and will generally interoperate reasonably well.
I'm not disagreeing that the academically correct term is ITA #2.
(Interestingly
most web page hits today call it "ITA 2" or "ITA2" but the 70's
and
earlier
books call it "ITA #2" when they are being pedantic.)
I'm just saying that in its Heyday, if you had to distinguish a 5-level
TTY from a 7-level TTY, the working terms were Baudot and ASCII.
Although
technically incorrect.
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