24 Jul
2013
24 Jul
'13
3:55 p.m.
I'm looking to equip my unibus pdp11/34a and qbus 11/83 with Ethernet cards. I have
no experience with old DEC network hardware, and I need advice.
On the qbus side, what is the difference between a DELNA and DEQNA? Is one superior? Is
there a better alternative?
As for unibus, any advice at all would be great. If it matters, my 11/34a has both cache
and floating point, 128kw memory, but I don't know if there are any operating systems
with tcp/ip that will run on it.
Thanks for any thoughts.
24 Jul
24 Jul
11:11 p.m.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Roe Peterson <roe at liveblockauctions.com> wrote:
As for unibus, any advice at all would be great. If
it matters, my 11/34a has both cache
and floating point, 128kw memory, but I don't know if there are any operating systems
with
tcp/ip that will run on it.
Cache... lucky you. My 11/34A has a FPU but no cache. :( For ethernet
I have a DEUNA. Seems to work.
2.9BSD UNIX will run on it and it has networking. You can also get
RT-11 talking TCP/IP. You may also be able to play with DECNET under
RSTS/E. I can't remember what RSX is like on an 11/34.
Jim
11:18 p.m.
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013, Jim Carpenter wrote:
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Roe Peterson <roe at liveblockauctions.com> wrote:
Which version of RSTS/E? One of the versions with DCL?
I'd love to access RSTS/E or RSX-11 on an 11/34...as that's using a DEUNA
it'd be a UNIBUS model and thus it'd be a bit on the big side. ;)
As for unibus, any advice at all would be great.
If it matters, my 11/34a has both cache
and floating point, 128kw memory, but I don't know if there are any operating systems
with
tcp/ip that will run on it.
Cache... lucky you. My 11/34A has a FPU but no cache. :( For ethernet
I have a DEUNA. Seems to work.
2.9BSD UNIX will run on it and it has networking. You can also get
RT-11 talking TCP/IP. You may also be able to play with DECNET under
RSTS/E. I can't remember what RSX is like on an 11/34.
Jim
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
25 Jul
25 Jul
12:08 a.m.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
Which version of RSTS/E? One of the versions with
DCL?
I'd love to access RSTS/E or RSX-11 on an 11/34...as that's using a DEUNA
it'd be a UNIBUS model and thus it'd be a bit on the big side. ;)
I have RSTS/E 9.something on 3 RL packs. (Thank you Gordon College!)
And yes, it has DCL. But I can't remember what DECNET/E needs. (I
don't have it anyway. :( ) And there's no TCP/IP.
It is a UNIBUS so everything is big. The DEUNA, if I remember
correctly, is two full length cards. I could be wrong. I haven't
actually used it since I discovered it likes to blow up bus
terminators. It's on my TODO list.
Jim
12:14 a.m.
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013, Jim Carpenter wrote:
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 2:18 AM, Cory Smelosky <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
I have a DECNET/E image laying around if you want it.
Which version of RSTS/E? One of the versions
with DCL?
I'd love to access RSTS/E or RSX-11 on an 11/34...as that's using a DEUNA
it'd be a UNIBUS model and thus it'd be a bit on the big side. ;)
I have RSTS/E 9.something on 3 RL packs. (Thank you Gordon College!)
And yes, it has DCL. But I can't remember what DECNET/E needs. (I
don't have it anyway. :( ) And there's no TCP/IP.
It is a UNIBUS so everything is big. The DEUNA, if I
remember
correctly, is two full length cards. I could be wrong. I haven't
actually used it since I discovered it likes to blow up bus
terminators. It's on my TODO list.
Ahhhhh.
Jim
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
8:22 a.m.
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Roe Peterson <roe at liveblockauctions.com>wrote:
On the qbus side, what is the difference between a
DELNA and DEQNA? Is
one superior? Is there a better alternative?
DELNA preferred over DEQNA. There were some problems with the DEQNA
(lockups under load, I believe). VMS (only relevant to VAX of course)
dropped support for it in later releases.
-chuck
9:35 a.m.
On 07/25/2013 09:22 AM, Charles Dickman wrote:
DELNA preferred over DEQNA. There were some problems
with the DEQNA
(lockups under load, I believe). VMS (only relevant to VAX of course)
dropped support for it in later releases.
Good to know, thanks. Do you happen to
know if the cable kit for the
DEQNA and DELNA are the same? I have both boards, only one cab kit.
-chuck
--
<http://www.liveblockauctions.com>
Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development
O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802
*Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100*
<http://www.liveblockauctions.com/index.php?p=FAQs>
10:11 a.m.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:35:13AM -0600, Roe Peterson wrote:
Do you happen to know if the cable kit for the
DEQNA and DELNA are the same? I have both boards, only one cab kit.
(BTW it's DELQA, not DELNA.) My recollection is that for some insane reason
they are *not* the same cab kit. Could be wrong.
John Wilson
D Bit
10:19 a.m.
On Jul 25, 2013, at 1:11 PM, John Wilson <wilson at dbit.com> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:35:13AM -0600, Roe Peterson
wrote:
My recollection (because I had to deal with it about a year ago) was that
you could use a DEQNA cab kit with a DELQA, but not necessarily the
reverse. I could be misremembering as well.
- Dave
Do you happen to know if the cable kit for the
DEQNA and DELNA are the same? I have both boards, only one cab kit.
(BTW it's DELQA, not DELNA.) My recollection is that for some insane reason
they are *not* the same cab kit. Could be wrong. 
10:34 a.m.
On 2013-07-25 10:35, Roe Peterson wrote:
On 07/25/2013 09:22 AM, Charles Dickman wrote:
The cab kits are slightly different, IIRC, the DELQA has one more pin.
We discussed it years ago here or on NetBSD-VAX, but at the end we
found out that the old DEQNA kit was also working with the DELQA ...
DELNA preferred over DEQNA. There were some
problems with the DEQNA
(lockups under load, I believe). VMS (only relevant to VAX of course)
dropped support for it in later releases.
Good to know, thanks. Do you happen to
know if the cable kit for the
DEQNA and DELNA are the same? I have both boards, only one cab kit.
11:33 a.m.
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013, Charles Dickman wrote:
On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 6:55 PM, Roe Peterson <roe at liveblockauctions.com>wrote:
What about a DELQA?
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On the qbus side, what is the difference between
a DELNA and DEQNA? Is
one superior? Is there a better alternative?
DELNA preferred over DEQNA. There were some problems with the DEQNA
(lockups under load, I believe). VMS (only relevant to VAX of course)
dropped support for it in later releases.
-chuck
9:03 a.m.
From: "Roe Peterson" <roe at liveblockauctions.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 12:55 AM
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only" <cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Pdp11 Ethernet cards
I'm looking to equip my unibus pdp11/34a and qbus
11/83 with Ethernet
cards.
I have no experience with old DEC network hardware, and I need advice.
On the qbus side, what is the difference between a DELNA and DEQNA?
Is one superior? Is there a better alternative?
As for unibus, any advice at all would be great. If it matters, my 11/34a
has
both cache and floating point, 128kw memory, but I don't know if there are
any operating systems with tcp/ip that will run on it.
Thanks for any thoughts.
On the UNIBUS you have two choices (that I know of).
It is either DEUNA, or DELUA.
DEUNA is two hex boards with one or two (?) interconnect ribbon cables.
DELUA is one hex board and has an MC68000 on-board.
The DELUA is more "modern", and I seem to remember that you can
have trouble if you use the DEUNA on a busy network.
One other matter.
The DEUNA is *very* power hungry !!
As you say that your 11/34A has FP and cache (then it is called an 11/34C,
IIRC, please correct me if I am wrong), you will have to do some math.
The 11/34A with FP and cache is just about what the +5V PSU can handle.
Check the power loading if you have a DEUNA.
greetz,
- Henk
9:40 a.m.
On 07/25/2013 10:03 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
It sounds to me like the DELUA is the way to
go; I'll see about
tracking one down.
As for unibus, any advice at all would be great.
If it matters, my
11/34a has
both cache and floating point, 128kw memory, but I don't know if
there are
any operating systems with tcp/ip that will run on it.
Thanks for any thoughts.
On the UNIBUS you have two choices (that I know of).
It is either DEUNA, or DELUA.
DEUNA is two hex boards with one or two (?) interconnect ribbon cables.
DELUA is one hex board and has an MC68000 on-board.
The DELUA is more "modern", and I seem to remember that you can
have trouble if you use the DEUNA on a busy network.
One other matter.
The DEUNA is *very* power hungry !! As you say that your 11/34A has FP and cache (then it
is called an
11/34C,
IIRC, please correct me if I am wrong)
I've never been really clear about how
the naming thing works. It makes
sense that an 11/34A with cache would be an 11/34C, but what does one
call an 11/34A with floating point and _no_ cache board?
, you will have to do some math.
The 11/34A with FP and cache is just about what the +5V PSU can handle.
I'd
imagine that depends on the enclosure type. I have two, one is the
9-slot-backplane only (H777 PSU), the other is the full-sized full
height job. I'll have to check into the capabilities of the 5V PSU on both.
--
<http://www.liveblockauctions.com>
Roe Peterson / Director of Research & Development
O. 306.523.4005 / C. 306.501.6802
*Help Desk: 1.877.694.6100 / 306.694.6100*
<http://www.liveblockauctions.com/index.php?p=FAQs>
10:16 a.m.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 10:40:12AM -0600, Roe Peterson wrote:
I've never been really clear about how the naming
thing works. It
makes sense that an 11/34A with cache would be an 11/34C, but what
does one call an 11/34A with floating point and _no_ cache board?
I've never been convinced that the 11/34C name is real. Yes it's in the
PDP-11 FAQ but I've never seen it in any DEC documentation. Maybe it was an
internal project codename? I think here in the outside world it's just that
the original version was the 11/34, and the redesign that made it possible to
add the KK11A and/or FP11A was the 11/34A, but the name doesn't change again
when you actually add either or both of those options.
I'd imagine that depends on the enclosure type. I
have two, one is
the 9-slot-backplane only (H777 PSU), the other is the full-sized
full height job. I'll have to check into the capabilities of the 5V
PSU on both.
I feel as though I've heard multiple stories about H777s going "foomp" so
I'd be inclined to baby that PSU just to be safe. I've stuffed all kinds
of goodies at once (including a DELUA but I forget whether I tried a DEUNA
pair) into my 10.5" 11/34A+KK11A+FP11A box with no ill effects.
John Wilson
D Bit
3:54 p.m.
I'd imagine that depends on the enclosure
type. I have two, one is
the 9-slot-backplane only (H777 PSU), the other is the full-sized
full height job. I'll have to check into the capabilities of the 5V
PSU on both.
I feel as though I've heard multiple stories about H777s going "foomp" so
I'd be inclined to baby that PSU just to be safe. I've stuffed all kinds
of goodies at once (including a DELUA but I forget whether I tried a DEUNA
pair) into my 10.5" 11/34A+KK11A+FP11A box with no ill effects.
10:25 a.m.
From: "Roe Peterson" <roe at liveblockauctions.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 6:40 PM
To: <General at mail.liveblockauctions.com>;
"Discussion at mail.liveblockauctions.com:On-Topic Posts Only"
<cctech at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Pdp11 Ethernet cards
I never heard of any other name, sorry.
On my site you can find the current calculation, it is taken from an 11/34A
user or installation manual. Without checking the info, my guess is
that the 9-slot box with the H777 is already maxed with the 11/34A,
FP11-A and the cache board.
I would use the full-sized box. It has more slots, and you will need a few.
IIRC the PSU for the first 9-slot backplane (the CPU backplane), may
only hold the 11/34A, FP11-A, cache, Operator's console interface and
the DL11-W console interface. So, there will be empty slots.
Not sure you can plug in one MOS memory board. As said, you will have
to calculate the total current to make sure the PSU for the first backplane
is not overloaded.
- Henk
As you say
that your 11/34A has FP and cache (then it is called an
11/34C, IIRC, please correct me if I am wrong)
I've never been really clear
about how the naming thing works.
It makes sense that an 11/34A with cache would be an 11/34C, but
what does one call an 11/34A with floating point and _no_ cache
board? , you will
have to do some math.
The 11/34A with FP and cache is just about what the +5V PSU can handle.
I'd
imagine that depends on the enclosure type. I have two, one is the
9-slot-backplane only (H777 PSU), the other is the full-sized full height
job. I'll have to check into the capabilities of the 5V PSU on both. 
10:29 a.m.
From: "Al Kossow" <aek at bitsavers.org>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 7:13 PM
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Pdp11 Ethernet cards
On 7/25/13 9:03 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote:
Ahhh, thanks Al, I did not know.
I know all 3 for (PC) network cards, but not for UNIBUS (or QBUS).
- Henk
On the UNIBUS you have two choices (that I know
of).
From DEC. There were others (Interlan, 3Com, Excelan) but good luck
finding driver support.
9:23 a.m.
On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Roe Peterson <roe at liveblockauctions.com> wrote:
I'm looking to equip my unibus pdp11/34a and qbus
11/83 with Ethernet cards. I have no experience with old DEC network hardware, and I need
advice.
On the qbus side, what is the difference between a DELNA and DEQNA? Is one superior?
Is there a better alternative?
Do you mean DELQA instead of DELNA? The DELQA was the later Qbus Ethernet
board that I'm aware of. It's what I have; it has a 10 MHz 68000 on board,
which should be plenty for handling heavy Ethernet load. The older DEQNA
(which, if I'm not mistaken, is essentially a Qbus version of the DEUNA)
has power consumption/heat dissipation issues and some lockup issues as
mentioned before. The DELQA is generally backwards-compatible with the
DEQNA for most software, though it has a jumper setting which purports to
make it 100% backwards-compatible for less tolerant software (all DEC OSes
supposedly support DELQA in its normal backwards-compatible mode).
DELQAs usually aren't that hard to find on eBay, and if you're lucky, they
come with a cab kit (which isn't that hard to make, since it's a pretty
straightforward AUI cable with a fuse). DEQNA cab kits should work fine
with a DELQA.
As far as I can tell, the DELUA is the Unibus equivalent to the DELQA. In
general, if you swap a U for a Q in the name, that's what you're looking
for (which is why if there's something called a DELNA, I don't know what
it is, but the only picture purporting to be on I can see on Google looks
an awful lot like a DELQA to me).
As for unibus, any advice at all would be great. If
it matters, my 11/34a has both cache and floating point, 128kw memory, but I don't
know if there are any operating systems with tcp/ip that will run on it.
As mentioned above, AFAIK, Unibus has DEUNA and DELUA, of which the latter
is the preferred model. No idea how hard it is to come across that. For
TCP/IP, I know Johnny Bilquist has a stack for RSX-11M+, but that won't
run on 128kW of RAM. TCP/IP is a bit of a tall order for a PDP-11, but
DECNET isn't, and Linux still works more or less fine with it.
Speaking of: can anyone guide me as to how I should go about installing
DECNET on RSX-11M (not plus) 4.6? I'm having a hard time figuring out
which (if any) of the available images online will work for that version.
The tape images seem a bit hard to come by, and I've periodically scoured
Google looking for anything. Part of the problem is that I'm not as
familiar with the DECNET versioning system relative to the RSX one, so I
don't know what's compatible with what.
- Dave
1 Aug
1 Aug
9:41 a.m.
On Thu, 25 Jul 2013, David Riley wrote:
On Jul 24, 2013, at 6:55 PM, Roe Peterson <roe at liveblockauctions.com> wrote:
Try ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com
I'm looking to equip my unibus pdp11/34a and
qbus 11/83 with Ethernet cards. I have no experience with old DEC network hardware, and I
need advice.
On the qbus side, what is the difference between a DELNA and DEQNA? Is one superior?
Is there a better alternative?
Do you mean DELQA instead of DELNA? The DELQA was the later Qbus Ethernet
board that I'm aware of. It's what I have; it has a 10 MHz 68000 on board,
which should be plenty for handling heavy Ethernet load. The older DEQNA
(which, if I'm not mistaken, is essentially a Qbus version of the DEUNA)
has power consumption/heat dissipation issues and some lockup issues as
mentioned before. The DELQA is generally backwards-compatible with the
DEQNA for most software, though it has a jumper setting which purports to
make it 100% backwards-compatible for less tolerant software (all DEC OSes
supposedly support DELQA in its normal backwards-compatible mode).
DELQAs usually aren't that hard to find on eBay, and if you're lucky, they
come with a cab kit (which isn't that hard to make, since it's a pretty
straightforward AUI cable with a fuse). DEQNA cab kits should work fine
with a DELQA.
As far as I can tell, the DELUA is the Unibus equivalent to the DELQA. In
general, if you swap a U for a Q in the name, that's what you're looking
for (which is why if there's something called a DELNA, I don't know what
it is, but the only picture purporting to be on I can see on Google looks
an awful lot like a DELQA to me).
As for unibus, any advice at all would be great.
If it matters, my 11/34a has both cache and floating point, 128kw memory, but I don't
know if there are any operating systems with tcp/ip that will run on it.
As mentioned above, AFAIK, Unibus has DEUNA and DELUA, of which the latter
is the preferred model. No idea how hard it is to come across that. For
TCP/IP, I know Johnny Bilquist has a stack for RSX-11M+, but that won't
run on 128kW of RAM. TCP/IP is a bit of a tall order for a PDP-11, but
DECNET isn't, and Linux still works more or less fine with it.
Speaking of: can anyone guide me as to how I should go about installing
DECNET on RSX-11M (not plus) 4.6? I'm having a hard time figuring out
which (if any) of the available images online will work for that version.
The tape images seem a bit hard to come by, and I've periodically scoured
Google looking for anything. Part of the problem is that I'm not as
familiar with the DECNET versioning system relative to the RSX one, so I
don't know what's compatible with what.
- Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
10:06 a.m.
On Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 12:23:46PM -0400, David Riley wrote:
The older DEQNA
(which, if I'm not mistaken, is essentially a Qbus version of the DEUNA)
It's not your mistake, it was DEC's! Sadly the DEQNA and DEUNA are not
even remotely similar from a SW point of view, so they need completely
different drivers to do the same job.
As far as I can tell, the DELUA is the Unibus
equivalent to the DELQA.
Rolling out new versions would have been a golden opportunity to close
the differences (as they did with the DHQ11, which IIRC was more like the
DHU11 than the DHV11 had been), but again sadly no. Both have improved
performance (and 68K series CPUs instead of T11 or i8051) but the same
programming models as their predecessors (except the DELQA-YM which has a
totally new "Turbo" mode, but AFAIK it's not enabled/used by DEC PDP-11
OSes so I guess it must have been intended for the MicroVAXes).
John Wilson
D Bit
4474
days inactive
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days old
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