28 Dec
2012
28 Dec
'12
5:58 p.m.
Hello everyone!
I have a question which to some might seem rather obvious to some, but
I cannot find the answer. And guessing by my recent streak of luck
I'll probably find the answer to this question after posting the
question to the list... Nevermind, back on topic.
The question at hand: Can a PMI processor -- in this case a KDJ11-BF
-- be put into a non-PMI serpentine QBUS backplane? Or will the magic
smoke be released.
If the answer is a resounding "no". Any one here have a KDJ11-AC
(M8192-YC) they'd be willing to trade for a KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE)?
I'm also interested in some other QBUS '11 boards, a -- short -- list
follows, in order of precedence:
DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M (M8043) -- or compatible
QBUS (non-PMI) memory -- I'd *LOVE* to get an MSV11-QC (M7551-CA, 4MB), -QB (-BA,
2MB) or -QA (-AA, 1MB) memory board; I'd also be fine with a 256KB MSV11-LK (M8059-K*)
board
22-bit compatible boot ROM board -- e.g. The BDV11 (M8012) revision E.
QBUS SCSI controller -- I'm really gunning for the CMD CQD-220A/TM, though I'm
for any form of QBUS SCSI controller that can be both TMSCP tape and MSCP disk controller
at the same time
DRV11-J (M8049) -- or compatible
DHV11 (M3104) -- or compatible
LPV11 (M8027
DELQA (M7516) -- or compatible
I would love to get all DEC original boards -- save the SCSI
controller, as I would the system to have mostly DEC innards.
If any one can tell from that list, I'm setting up a complete PDP-11
system. In this case replacing one. Don't ask what happened to the
machine that is being replaced be cause I will go on a twenty minute
long rant consisting of nothing but swearing.
Many thanks for any help offered!
Cheers,
Christian G.
29 Dec
29 Dec
3:04 a.m.
On Fri, Dec 28, 2012 at 2:58 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
<captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote:
The question at hand: Can a PMI processor -- in this case a KDJ11-BF
-- be put into a non-PMI serpentine QBUS backplane? Or will the magic
smoke be released.
EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf
Chapter 2 Configuration
2.1 Introduction
This chapter discusses the configuration requirements and other
factors to consider when configuring the KDJ11-B module and installing
it into an LSI-11 system. The module must be installed in a backplane
that has the extended LSI-11 bus in the A/B rows and the
interconnecting bus in the C/D rows. A 22-bit LSI bus utilizes the
full capability of the module and the interconnecting bus is required
because of the PMI feature of the module.
12:57 p.m.
On 29 December 2012 03:04, Glen Slick <glen.slick at gmail.com> wrote:
EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf
Chapter 2 Configuration
2.1 Introduction
This chapter discusses the configuration requirements and other
factors to consider when configuring the KDJ11-B module and installing
it into an LSI-11 system. The module must be installed in a backplane
that has the extended LSI-11 bus in the A/B rows and the
interconnecting bus in the C/D rows. A 22-bit LSI bus utilizes the
full capability of the module and the interconnecting bus is required
because of the PMI feature of the module.
You do not know how much I've looked through that PDF and completely
missed that section of text.
And in other news, I want to thank the many people who have contacted
me offlist with regards to helping me acquire boards. You'll all
either have received an e-mail from me, or will be receiving one
rather soon.
Thanks very much,
Christian
6:44 p.m.
Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
Hello everyone!
I have a question which to some might seem rather obvious to some, but
I cannot find the answer. And guessing by my recent streak of luck
I'll probably find the answer to this question after posting the
question to the list... Nevermind, back on topic.
The question at hand: Can a PMI processor -- in this case a KDJ11-BF
-- be put into a non-PMI serpentine QBUS backplane? Or will the magic
smoke be released.
In the past, I have placed an M8190-AB into the backplane for a VT103
which is a non-PMI serpentine 4 * 4 (four double dual slots serpentine) Qbus
backplane. I have also placed that M8190-AB into a BA23 in the third slot
position with 2 * 2MB PMI boards in slots 1 and 2. The 3 board
configuration
is reported by RT-11 as a PDP-11/83 with PMI memory. The system is also
about 20% faster than if the 2 PMI boards are placed in slots 2 and 3
and the
M8190-AB is placed in slot 1. This would indicate to me that there is a
very
high probability that all M8190 boards are essentially the same and able to
be placed in either an ABCD slot (as with the first 3 slots of the BA23)
or an
ABAB slot (as with all the slots in the VT103). I suspect that the M8190-AE
is named mainly for the 18 MHz crystal which also requires a more recent rev
of both the CPU and the floating point chip firmware to be able to
execute at
the higher 18 MHz speed than the 15 MHz speed of the M8190-AC.
So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but
the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct
slot(s).
In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103
backplane which will not support PMI activation.
Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the
M8190-AE
is placed into a VT103 backplane.
So can anyone reading this confirm the above?
If the answer is a resounding "no". Any one
here have a KDJ11-AC
(M8192-YC) they'd be willing to trade for a KDJ11-BF (M8190-AE)?
Why are you reverting to a dual board without the boot ROMs? I have
tested a VT103 (22 bit upgraded) with an M8190-AB board and one
4 MB quad memory board (obviously non-PMI memory) in the second slot..
It worked very well and no magic smoke was released. The other two
ABAB slots had a Quad ESDI controller and a DHV11. It was a great
demo system. Obviously the three 600 MB ESDI drives had to be
placed outside the VT103 on a separate power supply and I added
a fan for each drive as well. Running RT-11 with 600 MB hard drives
is enjoyable since there is ample space for files. If the VM: device
driver is used as the system disk, it is even possible to power down
the ESDI drives, replace one or more of the ESDI drives, then power
the ESDI drives back up. You can then UNLOAD and then LOAD
the MSCP device driver and just continue without losing anything,
although I would ALWAYS close all files on all of the EDSI hard
drives first, just as you would if you were using any other replaceable
media such as an RX50 or an RX02 floppy diskette.
Which Qbus backplane with only ABAB serpentine slots do you have?
I do have an M8192-YB which would require adding the Floating point chip.
I'm also interested in some other QBUS '11
boards, a -- short -- list
follows, in order of precedence:
Assuming that you can use the M8190-AE, you can skip the BDV11. The 4 MB
of memory should not be too difficult to find. More memory is always
helpful.
How many slots does you backplane have? Can you find a BA23 box instead
and use the PMI memory? With 8 quad slots, you will have no problems
with all
of those boards.
DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M (M8043) -- or compatible
QBUS (non-PMI) memory -- I'd *LOVE* to get an MSV11-QC (M7551-CA, 4MB), -QB (-BA, 2MB)
or -QA (-AA, 1MB) memory board; I'd also be fine with a 256KB MSV11-LK (M8059-K*)
board
22-bit compatible boot ROM board -- e.g. The BDV11 (M8012) revision E.
QBUS SCSI controller -- I'm really gunning for the CMD CQD-220A/TM, though I'm for
any form of QBUS SCSI controller that can be both TMSCP tape and MSCP disk controller at
the same time
DRV11-J (M8049) -- or compatible
DHV11 (M3104) -- or compatible
LPV11 (M8027
DELQA (M7516) -- or compatible
I would love to get all DEC original boards -- save the SCSI
controller, as I would the system to have mostly DEC innards.
If any one can tell from that list, I'm setting up
a complete PDP-11
system. In this case replacing one. Don't ask what happened to the
machine that is being replaced be cause I will go on a twenty minute
long rant consisting of nothing but swearing.
You probably will not forget what you imply you did that makes a
replacement necessary. I remember the ":forgetful" moment that I
had many years ago with two RD52 drives in a BA23 box when
both has the DS3 set. I lost the contents of both drives.
Many thanks for any help offered!
Cheers,
Christian G.
Please let us know what the answer is if you hear privately!
Jerome Fine
P.S.
With regard to the response that Glen Slick provided:
EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf
Chapter 2 Configuration
2.1 Introduction
This chapter discusses the configuration requirements and other
factors to consider when configuring the KDJ11-B module and installing
it into an LSI-11 system. The module must be installed in a backplane
that has the extended LSI-11 bus in the A/B rows and the
interconnecting bus in the C/D rows. A 22-bit LSI bus utilizes the
full capability of the module and the interconnecting bus is required
because of the PMI feature of the module.
I notice that while the full capabilities of the module require that
installation be made into an ABCD backplane below the PMI memory,
there is no requirement that this be done as far as normal operation
of the memory is concerned. I seem to remember that Megan Gentry
also posted a comment in this regard many years ago and noted that
if the PMI memory is installed below the CPU, it will act as normal
memory. It is very likely that the comment was made in respect of
a BA23 box which has the ABCD backplane for the first three slots,
but I could be wrong.
In any case, the above portion of the document only stipulates that
an ABCD slot must be used to obtain PMI operation (and the increased
speed) of the memory. It does not say that an ABAB slot must not be
used because damage will occur to the M8190-AE board. Hopefully,
someone else will see your original question and state one way or
the other concerning the possibility of damage to an M8190-AE when
it is installed in an ABAB slot. My guess at the moment is that
an ABAB slot will not cause any damage to an M8190-AE, just that
PMI memory will function as non-PMI memory without the increased
speed. But I could be VERY wrong.
8:27 p.m.
Hello!
I'm going to just make this response public just so that everyone can
know more about the system that I've got my hands on.
Plus for any one morbidly curious there's also the story of what
happened to my previous '11 system...
On 29 December 2012 18:44, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
In the past, I have placed an M8190-AB into the
backplane for a VT103
which is a non-PMI serpentine 4 * 4 (four double dual slots serpentine) Qbus
Hmm,
that I should remember if I can get another quad wide CPU, I've a
VT-103 and it's currently running on a "puny" 11/23. Though, isn't the
VT-103 backplane only Q18 not Q22? (Is it a wirewrap backplane? Or can
an upgrade to Q22 be done easily, if it isn't?)
backplane. I have also placed that M8190-AB into a
BA23 in the third slot
position with 2 * 2MB PMI boards in slots 1 and 2. The 3 board
configuration
is reported by RT-11 as a PDP-11/83 with PMI memory. The system is also
about 20% faster than if the 2 PMI boards are placed in slots 2 and 3 and
the
An interesting thing is I seem to recall that if you use the dual wide
J-11 processor in a machine it's an 11/73, if you use a quad-wide J-11
-- that isn't the 11/53 -- with PMI RAM behind the CPU on the
backplane, it's an 11/83 or 11/93. Stick that same memory in front of
the CPU, or use only QBUS memories and it becomes an 11/73B.
Some one else can check if I got that fact right.
So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards
are PMI capable, but
the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct
slot(s).
In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103
backplane which will not support PMI activation.
That's basically the crux of my question. I don't really need/want PMI
memory, as the backplane I have doesn't support PMI as it's all Q22
ABAB.
Why are you reverting to a dual board without the boot
ROMs? I have
tested a VT103 (22 bit upgraded) with an M8190-AB board and one
4 MB quad memory board (obviously non-PMI memory) in the second slot..
It worked very well and no magic smoke was released. The other two
The
"downgrade" is because if the KDJ11-BF won't play nice on an ABAB
backplane the KDJ11-AC + (22-bit capable) BDV11 will.
ABAB slots had a Quad ESDI controller and a DHV11. It
was a great
demo system. Obviously the three 600 MB ESDI drives had to be
placed outside the VT103 on a separate power supply and I added
a fan for each drive as well. Running RT-11 with 600 MB hard drives
is enjoyable since there is ample space for files. If the VM: device
driver is used as the system disk, it is even possible to power down
the ESDI drives, replace one or more of the ESDI drives, then power
the ESDI drives back up. You can then UNLOAD and then LOAD
the MSCP device driver and just continue without losing anything,
although I would ALWAYS close all files on all of the EDSI hard
drives first, just as you would if you were using any other replaceable
media such as an RX50 or an RX02 floppy diskette.
I *WANT* your VT-103. So much. Mine is a rather less impressive
system, only a KDF11-AB (if I remember that;s the designation of the
one with an MMU but no FPP), and NatSemi 256KB RAM board, a
DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M and a 18-bit only BDV11. No internal TU58.
Which Qbus backplane with only ABAB serpentine slots
do you have?
An H9275A, Q22 bus, not Q18. It's the 4x9 that'll fit into a BA11-N
box. If I remember correctly, the 11/23+ version of the BA11-N box
comes with that one in it by default. Though, my box is a PDP-11/03
box that got upgraded.
As a complete tangent I also have an H9273A backplane (4x9 backplane
that fits in a BA11-N box, Q18 ABCD all the way down) that isn't doing
anything...
I do have an M8192-YB which would require adding the
Floating point chip.
Actually, I got an offer of a KDJ11-AC (M8192-YC) for my KDJ11-BF. So
I'm not losing much more beyond a few MHz of clock. Same individual
also has a 22-bit capable BDV11 so that won't be much of a problem.
This is especially nice since the BA11- box the backplane -- and
system -- live in has a pair of clip things to prevent the bottom card
in the backplane from being removed, which I don't want to faff about
with so I'll just stick the BDV11 in there, as bus termination is a
good thing.
Assuming that you can use the M8190-AE, you can skip
the BDV11. The 4 MB
of memory should not be too difficult to find. More memory is always
helpful.
How many slots does you backplane have? Can you find a BA23 box instead
and use the PMI memory? With 8 quad slots, you will have no problems with
all
of those boards.
My backplane is 4 by 9. So more space then the BA23 though, not PMI capable.
Nope, I can't get my hands on a BA23 box. And I have no wish to get a
BA23 box (though I do like how you can stick a hard disk/RX50/MSCP
cartridge tape into its two front slots), plus it would look just a
bit "off" (read: ugly) having the beige BA23 the lovely -- very white
-- DEC short rack I got my hands on that has the --equally very white
-- BA11-N box in it. Especially since both the rack and the box are a
PDP-11/03-L rack, with associated, matching bevels/faceplates.
You probably will not forget what you imply you did
that makes a
replacement necessary. I remember the ":forgetful" moment that I
had many years ago with two RD52 drives in a BA23 box when
both has the DS3 set. I lost the contents of both drives.
Yes, I'm never again letting the machine out of my sight or leaving
the house without Crazy Psycho Bitch Lady With No Respect For Personal
Property in tow, and/or the machine and rack bolted to the floor,
wall, and any available fixed surface. Because *I* didn't do anything
to lose my entire PDP-11 system beyond living at my university dorm.
CPBLWNRFPP did something to my system and it is out of my possession
without any way for me to get it back -- and she can't give me a
straight story as to whether she threw the machine out, or sold it.
Personally since she has no idea what the machine was other then an --
in her words -- "old, dirty, fucking computer" I think she carted it
to the dump and tossed it. Oh and it was *FAR* from dirty as I made
sure to keep it spotless (the all white bevel/faceplate drove me nuts
as it seemed to attract dust from everywhere in a three light year
radius... just like my piano).
It *really* pissed me off as I had amassed a nice collection of cards
-- thank you to who sent me those, you know who you are and I am
eternally grateful to you -- which was quite impressive, if I had a
bit more RAM and backplanes I could've built another two or three '11
systems and still had cards left over! Also, I had a nice collection
of software on 8" diskette which I'm probably never going to be able
to replace -- and some of which was probably unobtanium, which I never
got a chance to try and image because, as mentioned, living in a
university dorm; neither did I have it catalogued as again,
university. I also had a nice collection of peripherals, namely a
quite rare -- since I've not seen another -- DSD-880/8 combination of
8" DSDD capable diskette drive and 8MB drive that pretended to be a
slightly crippled RL02. There was also an RX50, but I never got a
chance to use it...
Oh and I shouldn't forget to mention that I got a majority of the
system *for free* as gifts and trades with others. I especially like
the fact I got a CQD-220A/TM for a steal of only $150.00, and now I'm
probably going to be paying out the nose to replace just that card.
Thank Christ my VT-103 was somewhere else -- sitting on a shelf in my
old high school on a long-term loan because aforementioned CPBLWNRFPP
had a conniption when I got it and I did not want to see it get tossed
in the trash, nor did I have any time to put it anywhere better.
Oh look, I'm ranting. I'm going to cut this off before the swearing starts.
Please let us know what the answer is if you hear
privately!
Jerome Fine
I still haven't heard an authoritative answer one way or another --
beyond yours of course -- as to whether or not I can put the PMI
processor in the non-PMI backplane, so I'll keep holding out. Or just
trade it, as I don't mind the slight downgrade in performance.
Cheers,
Christian
9:08 p.m.
On 29/12/12 8:27 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
...
Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon cable jumper from
CPU to RAM.
So the quick answer is probably that all M8190
boards are PMI capable, but
the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct
slot(s).
In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103
backplane which will not support PMI activation.
That's basically the crux of my question. I don't really need/want PMI
memory, as the backplane I have doesn't support PMI as it's all Q22
ABAB. ...
I *WANT* your VT-103. So much. Mine is a rather less impressive
system, only a KDF11-AB (if I remember that;s the designation of the
one with an MMU but no FPP), and NatSemi 256KB RAM board, a
DLV11-J/DLVJ1-M and a 18-bit only BDV11. No internal TU58.
I want *your* VT-103! :)
--Toby
9:13 p.m.
On 29 December 2012 21:08, Toby Thain <toby at telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon
cable jumper from CPU
to RAM.
You're mistaking uVAX memory with PDP-11 memory. uVAXen have the
ribbon cables, and the CD slot. On the PDP-11 processors and RAM (and
QBUS to UNIBUS adapter -- KTJ11, I think it is called -- in the 84 and
94) the PMI is all on only the CD slots of the board.
I want *your* VT-103! :)
Yes, I know. But I have no real way of dragging it out to Toronto; and
if I remember nor do you have a way of coming out to Hamilton/Stoney
Creek to get it. :P
Cheers,
Christian
30 Dec
30 Dec
2:17 a.m.
On 29/12/12 9:13 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:
On 29 December 2012 21:08, Toby Thain<toby at
telegraphics.com.au> wrote:
Thanks for clarifying. Yes, I've only seen MicroVAX PMI. Didn't know
about the PDP-11 kind.
--Toby
Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!)
ribbon cable jumper from CPU
to RAM.
You're mistaking uVAX memory with PDP-11 memory. uVAXen have the
ribbon cables, and the CD slot. On the PDP-11 processors and RAM (and
QBUS to UNIBUS adapter -- KTJ11, I think it is called -- in the 84 and
94) the PMI is all on only the CD slots of the board. 
1:52 a.m.
That's
basically the crux of my question. I don't really need/want
PMI memory, as the backplane I have doesn't support PMI as it's all
Q22 ABAB.
Does that follow? PMI is a non-bus (private!) ribbon cable jumper
from CPU to RAM. 
2:27 a.m.
New subject: HP 9000 series 300 - 360 serial terminal question
I have been trying to set up an HP 360 with a bad video card to use one of the HP web
terminals (J3591A) by attaching it to the RS232 port that is in the Human Interface Board
and I am able to connect, but I get back gibberish and it does not send anything remotely
resembling a startup screen. I have previously setup and used the web terminal with an
IBM B50, Itanium and PA-RISC workstations and servers of several kinds, so I am pretty
sure that it should work in this application. I have been using the 360 service handbook
to determine the dip switch settings (I think REMote enable was the only one that I needed
to set) and the communication configurations (p124 states for some of the cards that can
be used, but not what I am using... 8bits, no parity, single stop bit, 9600Baud and
XON/XOFF enabled) I have not found a specific reference to using the Human interface card
and whether or not it has similar configurations.
Has anyone set up a terminal on the 300 series and does anyone know what my settings
should be?
Is there a special serial cable? I have used a standard one and the HP part that is
supposed to work with various HP servers (although this looks to me like a case of
incorrect settings)
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Chris
10:37 a.m.
New subject: HP 9000 series 300 - 360 serial terminal question
On 2012-12-30 00:27, mls wrote:
Has anyone set up a terminal on the 300 series and does anyone know what my settings
should be?
By coincidence, I had a 9000/300 here, which I didn't power up yet.
But didn't have any problems with it at all.
Used just the normal cables which were laying around here:
Self-Test Mode
Copyright 1990,
Hewlett-Packard Company.
All Rights Reserved.
BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 NOV 90
Bit Mapped Video
MC68040 Processor
Configuration EEPROM
HP-HIL
RESET To Restart
Self-Test Mode
HP-IB
DMA-C0
Self-Test Mode
RAM 16776900 Bytes
HP98644 (RS-232) at 9
HP98265 (SCSI S 32) at 14
HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 08000925E5A8
HP PARALLEL at 23
System Search Mode
Cheers,
emanuel
11:28 p.m.
New subject: HP 9000 series 300 - 360 serial terminal question
On Dec 30, 2012, at 9:37 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote:
On 2012-12-30 00:27, mls wrote:
Thanks - the HP cable (which works with all the 'newer' items) did not work, but
a standard serial cable did...
Self-Test Mode
Copyright 1989,
Hewlett-Packard Company.
All Rights Reserved.
BOOTROM Rev. D
Bit Mapped Video
MC68030 Processor
MC68882 Coprocessor
HP-HIL.Keboard
RESET To Power-Up
Self-Test Mode
HP-IB
DMA-C0
Self-Test Mode
RAM 8388356 Bytes
HP98644 (RS-232) at 9
HP98265 (SCSI S 16) at 11
Self-Test Mode
HP98625 (HS HP-IB) at 14
HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 080009059D02
System Search Mode
Has anyone set up a terminal on the 300 series and does anyone know what my settings
should be?
By coincidence, I had a 9000/300 here, which I didn't power up yet.
But didn't have any problems with it at all.
Used just the normal cables which were laying around here:
Self-Test Mode
Copyright 1990,
Hewlett-Packard Company.
All Rights Reserved.
BOOTROM Rev. 2.0 29 NOV 90
Bit Mapped Video
MC68040 Processor
Configuration EEPROM
HP-HIL
RESET To Restart
Self-Test Mode
HP-IB
DMA-C0
Self-Test Mode
RAM 16776900 Bytes
HP98644 (RS-232) at 9
HP98265 (SCSI S 32) at 14
HP98643 (LAN) at 21, AUI, 08000925E5A8
HP PARALLEL at 23
System Search Mode
Cheers,
emanuel
1:07 p.m.
On Sat, Dec 29, 2012 at 3:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine <jhfinedp3k at compsys.to> wrote:
So the quick answer is probably that all M8190 boards are PMI capable, but
the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct
slot(s).
In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103
backplane which will not support PMI activation.
Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the
M8190-AE
is placed into a VT103 backplane.
I remain skeptical that everything will just be fine if you place an
M8190 KDJ11-B into a non-Q22/CD backplane.
If you look at Table 2-9 (page 2-19) and Table 2-10 (page 2-20) in
EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf, won't placing an M8190 into a
non-C22/CD backplane essentially connect the CA1-CV1 signals in Table
2-10 straight through to the AA1-AV1 signals in Table 2-9, and same
with the DA1-DV1 signals and the BA1-BV1 signals? That doesn't seem
like something that would allow normal functioning.
Also, it is clear from Table 2-10 that the PMI signals on the M8190
only exist on the top (component) side of the board and can only
communicate over the PMI with memory boards physically located above
the M8190.
7:09 p.m.
Glen Slick wrote:
On Sat, Dec 29,
2012 at 3:44 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote:
So the quick answer is probably that all M8190
boards are PMI capable, but
the PMI is not activated if PMI memory is not present in the correct
slot(s).
In addition, probably all M8190 boards are happy being placed into a VT103
backplane which will not support PMI activation.
Of course, I can't guarantee there won't be magic smoke released if the
M8190-AE
is placed into a VT103 backplane.
I remain skeptical that everything will just be fine if you place an
M8190 KDJ11-B into a non-Q22/CD backplane.
If you look at Table 2-9 (page 2-19) and Table 2-10
(page 2-20) in
EK-KDJ1B-UG_KDJ11-B_Nov86.pdf, won't placing an M8190 into a
non-C22/CD backplane essentially connect the CA1-CV1 signals in Table
2-10 straight through to the AA1-AV1 signals in Table 2-9, and same
with the DA1-DV1 signals and the BA1-BV1 signals? That doesn't seem
like something that would allow normal functioning.
Also, it is clear from Table 2-10 that the PMI signals on the M8190
only exist on the top (component) side of the board and can only
communicate over the PMI with memory boards physically located above
the M8190.
With regard to the DEC manual, I agree that as stated, it is
CORRECT!!!! What is missing is a discussion of other
configurations.
To make sure we are all discussing the same thing:
M8190-AA is a KDJ11-BA with a 15 MHz crystal
M8190-AB is a KDJ11-BB with a 15 MHz crystal
M8190-AC is a KDJ11-BC with a 15 MHz crystal and the FPU chip
M8190-AE is a KDJ11-BF with an 18 Mhz crystal and the FPU chip
I will state again:
I have placed an M8190-AA board in the VT103 backplane
in the first slot and a 4 MB memory board in the second quad
slot. The third quad slot was a quad EDSI disk controller and the
fourth quad slot was a DHV11.
The backplane was originally 18 bit, but was upgraded to 22 bit
by soldering 4 wires to 8 points each on the backplane, one for
each of the dual AB locations which are available via a solder
connection which was previously left available but hanging.
SORRY - lead based solder is required since the original
backplane used, at the time, lead based solder. Wire wrap
wire was used and the insulation was left on between the
solder joints.
The VT103 has a 4 slot ABAB serpentine backplane since
I have also connected 8 dual boards to that same backplane
such as an M8192 and an M8043.
The manual that you have copied a portion of is CORRECT.
If you place a quad M8190 board (all M8190 boards as far
as I know including the M8190-AA) in the third slot of a BA23
and place 2 * 2 MB PMI quad memory boards in slots one
and two (the first three slots of a BA23 are ABCD), then RT-11
will report that the CPU is a PDP-11/83 with 4 MB of PMI
memory.
If you place the M8190 in slot one and the PMI boards in slots
two and three, then RT-11 will say NOT say PMI memory is
present.
What I did not do (since I did not have an M8190-AE to test at
the time) was place an M8190-AE into the VT103 backplane.
However, I would have at the time since I did not know any
better and I am confident that if I had access to all of the stuff
needed to test the VT103 that I could do so now. But, since
I have not done it yet, I can't state with 100% confidence that
the magic smoke would not be released.
By the way, some benchmarks I did might be of interest. The
M8190-AE boards configured with PMI activated memory is
about 33% faster than an M8190-AA board without PMI
activated memory. An M8190-AE board without the PMI
memory activated is about 13% faster than an M8190-AA
board without PMI activated memory. An M8190-AA
board (with the 15 Mhz crystal) with PMI activated memory
is about 20% faster than an M8190-AA without PMI
activated memory. This means that about 60% of the
speed improvement of the M8190-AE with PMI activated
memory is due to the use of PMI activated memory. The
other 40% of the speed increase is due to the 18 MHz
crystal vs the 15 MHz crystal. I caution that this was
RT-11 running only a single job (specifically BINCOM
which compares blocks of a file). For the file, I substituted
the VM: device and compared about 7000 blocks with
itself, thereby eliminating any disk I/O. Since ONLY the
CPU was involved, I felt that the test was a very good rough
approximation to the overall CPU speed. The time was
measured to the nearest 1/60 of a second, so anyone can
easily repeat the test.
I know that the above information can be verified. If anyone
has access to these boards and can check the electrical
connections and the difference between ABAB and ABCD,
I suspect that it will be possible to verify that the M8190-AE
is different from the M8190-AB only in the 18 Mhz crystal
(and the different revs of the CPU plus the extra FPU chip).
Jerome Fine
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captainkirk359＠gmail.com -
emu＠e-bbes.com -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
jhfinedp3k＠compsys.to -
mountainlogic-systems＠comcast.net -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au