12 Jan
2008
12 Jan
'08
8:27 p.m.
Hi Guys,
Recently acquired some VAXen - I have a soft spot in my heart
for VAX/VMS as I worked professionally as a user on a VAX/VMS
system for quite some years, however I have little to no
experience from a system administration standpoint.
What I have:
VAXstation 3100, currently running NETBSD
VAXserver 3100 - Installed hobby version of OPENvms on it.
VAXstation 4000 VLC - Has a full VMS 5.5 installed on it.
Datability VCP300 16-port LAT terminal server (The VLC
appears to load LAT networking when it boots, but I haven't
looked into it further yet)
My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup
of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to
another drive. Not quite sure what the best way to go about
this is, and I want to make sure I *DON'T* cause any damage
to it in the process, so I'm looking for someone experienced
in VMS who can give be a bit of advice/guidance.
I've got some documentation that I've dug up on the web
including a VMS administrators guide, and I also have the
full VMS 4.0 documentation set (about 3-feet of paper!).
I've seen reference to booting stand-along BACKUP - I do have
the OPENvms install CD which appears to boot to a configuration
which can do stand-alone BACKUP (at least it can restore from a
backup image on the CD).
Possible backup media that I have available:
- A pair of Exabyte HH-CTS 8mm DAT tape drives
- A SONY SDT-5010 4mm DAT tape drive
- SCSI ZIP Drive
- Another SCSI hard drive
Are any of these feasable as a backup medium for VAX/VMS?
(All three of these machines have SCSI ports) If so, any pointers
as to how to configure the drives/media to be recognized and
accessable to the stand-alone backup, and info on how to perform
such a backup would be most appreciated. I'll probably pull the
original drive and install OPENvms to another drive for a "test
run" before I try and backup the original system.
Related topic: Keyboard/Mouse emulator?
So far most of what I've been doing has been via a serial console,
however both the 4000 VLC and the VAXstation 3100 support keyboard
and mouse - The VLC has a VGA video connector, and I've found a
couple of LCD monitors supporting sync-on-green which work on it.
I've also scrounged up an LK-201 keyboard which works, and I'm
working on acquiring a DEC mouse ... I did figure out how to activate
"dead rodent mode" which lets me do mouse movements through the
keyboard, and DEC windows does come up and run!
I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
Regards,
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
12 Jan
12 Jan
8:47 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-01-12 20:27:53 -0500, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote:
VAXstation 3100, currently running NETBSD
VAXserver 3100 - Installed hobby version of OPENvms on it.
VAXstation 4000 VLC - Has a full VMS 5.5 installed on it.
Datability VCP300 16-port LAT terminal server (The VLC
appears to load LAT networking when it boots, but I haven't
looked into it further yet)
My immediate concern is that I'd like to make a full backup
of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to
another drive. Not quite sure what the best way to go about
this is, and I want to make sure I *DON'T* cause any damage
to it in the process, so I'm looking for someone experienced
in VMS who can give be a bit of advice/guidance.
The VLC is simply SCSI based, isn't it? I wouldn't bother with doing a
file-based backup, just because the SCSI drive will probably be "quite
small" compared to today's drives. Just attach it to some other box
and do a block-copy of the whole drive. That'll create a file of eg.
4GB in size with everything in it, including partitioning and all the
file system(s). Simple to create, simple to restore to this or an
identical drive.
You'd probably do a file-based backup additionally to be able to
restore to a different medium, though.
I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in
the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
That's a nice little fun project, not too hard to implement.
Personally, I do have real hardware (LK201/LK401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA
and -GA mice and even a graphics tablet) that I use with my Linux box
(with a simple adaptor to bring the MMJ11/Mini-DIN plug into the DE9
world, along with the Linux drivers for that hardware.)
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: Lauf nicht vor Deinem Gl?ck davon:
the second : Es k?nnte hinter Dir stehen!
9:26 p.m.
> My immediate concern is that I'd like to make
a full backup
> of the VMS 5.5 on the VLC, and also attempt restoring it to
> another drive.
The VLC is simply SCSI based, isn't it? I
wouldn't bother with doing a
file-based backup, just because the SCSI drive will probably be "quite
small" compared to today's drives. Just attach it to some other box
and do a block-copy of the whole drive. That'll create a file of eg.
4GB in size with everything in it, including partitioning and all the
file system(s). Simple to create, simple to restore to this or an
identical drive.
I've already done that - I put the drive from the VLC as an external
drive on the 3100 running NETBSD and dd'd it into an image file - but
my goal is to be able to survive a drive failure, and possibly also
move it to a larger drive. The original drive in question is an RZ23,
which is a 100M DEC labled Conner drive - I have three other similar
drives, two labled RZ23 and one Conner that are "really close" but
not exactly the same - apparently there were slightly different
variations and versions.
You'd probably do a file-based backup additionally
to be able to
restore to a different medium, though.
Exactly. If I understand it correctly, an image backup should restore
to any drive, and is the best way to insure that I can rebuild the
system in the future.
I found
details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
That's a nice little fun project, not too hard to implement.
Personally, I do have real hardware (LK201/LK401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA
and -GA mice and even a graphics tablet) that I use with my Linux box
(with a simple adaptor to bring the MMJ11/Mini-DIN plug into the DE9
world, along with the Linux drivers for that hardware.)
9:54 p.m.
On Sat, 2008-01-12 21:26:39 -0500, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote:
I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice are to find, but PC/PS2
devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others
with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest,
(or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further.
Keyboards and mice are comparably easy to get, but the graphics tablet
was quite hard to find. Took me one and a half year to get one, just
to test my driver whether it works correctly.
MfG, JBG
--
Jan-Benedict Glaw jbglaw at lug-owl.de +49-172-7608481
Signature of: They that give up essential liberty to obtain temporary safety,
the second : deserve neither liberty nor safety. (Ben Franklin)
I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in
the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
That's a nice little fun project, not too hard to implement.
Personally, I do have real hardware (LK201/LK401 keyboard, VSXXX-AA
and -GA mice and even a graphics tablet) that I use with my Linux box
(with a simple adaptor to bring the MMJ11/Mini-DIN plug into the DE9
world, along with the Linux drivers for that hardware.) 
13 Jan
13 Jan
12:05 a.m.
On Jan 12, 2008 8:26 PM, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote:
Dave,
I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice are to
find, but PC/PS2
devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others
with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest,
(or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further.
I'm definitely interested. It'd give me a reason to put the color
board back into my VS3100 M38, build a video adapter, and install
DECWindows! (Is there really any other reason? ;-)
...Josef
--
"I laugh because I dare not cry. This is a crazy world
and the only way to enjoy it is to treat it as a joke."
-- Hilda "Sharpie" Burroughs,
"The Number of the Beast" by Robert A. Heinlein
1:45 a.m.
Josef Chessor wrote:
On Jan 12, 2008 8:26 PM, Dave Dunfield <dave06a at
dunfield.com> wrote:
Dave,
I've never had any trouble finding VAX keyboards or mice. The only
thing I've had trouble finding of that sort is the breakout cable to
hook the keyboard and mouse up to the D-shell connector on the back of
3100s.
Peace... Sridhar
I have no idea how hard DEC keyboards and mice
are to find, but PC/PS2
devices are VERY plentiful, and I would imagine that there must be others
with VAXen and not the keyboard/mouse - If there's enough interest,
(or I don't find a mouse), I'll persue it further.
I'm definitely interested. It'd give me a reason to put the color
board back into my VS3100 M38, build a video adapter, and install
DECWindows! (Is there really any other reason? ;-) 
3:58 a.m.
On Sat, 12 Jan 2008 20:27:53 -0500
"Dave Dunfield" <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote:
I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in
the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
http://www.kbdbabel.org/
--
tsch__,
Jochen
Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/
2:46 p.m.
New subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?)
Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote:
Related topic: Keyboard/Mouse emulator?
I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in
the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or
mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM
switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it
can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice.
I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're serious
I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware.
Bob Armstrong
3:22 p.m.
New subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?)
Bob Armstrong wrote:
Would this work help in any way:
http://www.kbdbabel.org/
"PS2 Keyboard ---> DEC VT320 ..."
Jim
I found details of the keyboard and mouse
protocol in the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or
mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM
switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it
can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice.
I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're serious
I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware.
14 Jan
14 Jan
4:25 a.m.
New subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?)
The Microchip USB PICs can implement a HID class driver compatible (USB)
device and inject key codes into windows. Since the reports are built
in the PIC, any (USB Kbd HID) legal codes can be generated. The LK-201
to USB keycode mapping can be done to taste in the PIC.
This would *definitely* work, to venture an opinion the PS2 interface
should work but would be "harder".
Martin
Bob Armstrong wrote:
Dave Dunfield <dave06a at dunfield.com> wrote:
Related topic: Keyboard/Mouse emulator?
I found details of the keyboard and mouse protocol in
the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards
or
mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM
switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but
it
can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice.
I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think, but if you're
serious
I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware.
Bob Armstrong
5:06 a.m.
New subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?)
Martin Bishop wrote:
The Microchip USB PICs can implement a HID class
driver compatible (USB)
device and inject key codes into windows. Since the reports are built
in the PIC, any (USB Kbd HID) legal codes can be generated. The LK-201
to USB keycode mapping can be done to taste in the PIC.
AVRs can do the same, but I think the OP was wanting IBM KB to DEC, not
DEC KB to IBM. In the former, the PIC needs to implement USB host
(which I am sure there are variants, as I know some of the AVRs can be a
DEVICE or a HOST).
This would *definitely* work, to venture an opinion
the PS2 interface
should work but would be "harder".
Given the ease of the AT/PS/2 protocol and my experience with USB HID, I
would disagree. The mechanical and electrical for USB requires more
thought, and you need to get specific USB-capable uC variants (or use
libUSB of some variant, but that's even more work). The PS/2 protocol
to RS423 is something any PIC or AVR can do, even though with as few as
8 pins (serial and a few IO pins, everything is as 5 volts, and if you
don't care about sending codes back to the KB, you can simply watch the
clock signals from the KB to get your scan codes).
Still, I think the work has already been done by "babel" project.
Jim
8:59 a.m.
New subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?)
I found details
of the keyboard and mouse protocol in the back of
a Microvax manual, and have been toying with the idea of building
a small embedded controller to take a PC (PS2) keyboard and mouse,
and emulate the DEC equivalents to the VAX - would anyone else be
interested in this?
I'd be very interested, not because I have a shortage of DEC keyboards or
mice, but because it'd allow me to use my VAXstation or PRO-380 on a KVM
switch along with various PCs. The KVM switch can handle the video, but it
can't cope with the DEC keyboards and mice. I suspect that this may not be as easy as you think,
but if you're serious
I'll build the hardware if you write the firmware.
I don't recall saying that I thought it would be easy, however I do think that it
could be done.
The hardware shouldn't be very complicated at all - I've been thinking about
building up an 8031
(because I have lots, and development tools etc.).
The interfaces which have to be dealt with are:
- Simultanious PS/2 Keyboard and Mouse inputs
In the code I did before to read the PS/2 keyboard, I simply polled the clock line
which might
get problematic when dealing with two interfaces
as well as a software UART (see below), however the 8051 has two external interrupt
inputs,
which could be used to monitor the clock lines - a
small state machine running off each interrupt should be able to handle
the physical interface to the keyboard/mouse
- Two UARTS
The VAX requires a serial port for both the keyboard and the mouse.
Fortunately the speed is only 4800, and the mouse if defined to be
half-duplex, so it should not to too difficult to implement the mouse
serial port from an internal timer interrupt and corresponding state
machine. This would leave the main 8051 serial port available or the
emulated keyboard (which is bidirectional).
- LEDs and beeper
Although the PC keyboard does have three LEDs, we might want to use
these to indicate local states. We would need at least one more LED
on the interface box, and I would probably put on all 4 (at least
until we determine which PC keyboard LEDs will be available)
I'd also add a speaker output for the keyclick and beeper.
An 8031 has 14 spare I/O lines including the serial port (and the two
which can be configured as interrupts). Our requirements are:
2 for PS/2 clock (INT0 and INT1)
2 for PS/2 data
2 for keyboard serial (8051 serial port)
2 for mouse serial
4 for LEDs
1 for speaker
So we should just fit with one to spare.
From a firmware point of view, the mouse looks pretty
straightforward,
mostly a protocol translation with only a few simple commands to
handle.
The keyboard looks considerably more complex, with modes and key
regions that they can be applied to, however as a friend of mine
says, thats "just typing" ...
Dave
--
dave06a (at) Dave Dunfield
dunfield (dot) Firmware development services & tools: www.dunfield.com
com Collector of vintage computing equipment:
http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/index.html
15 Jan
15 Jan
9:15 a.m.
New subject: DEC Keyboard Mouse Emulator (was RE: Backing up VAX/VMS?)
The hardware shouldn't be very complicated at all
- I've been thinking
about building up an 8031
(because I have lots, and development tools etc.).
If you use an AVR, you can use BASCOM from www.mcselec.com which has
nice tools for that. You can build an AVR programmer for less than $5 and
you can have keyboard/mouse inputs and multiple serial outputs
But I'd use a pair of Attiny 13 or Attiny 2313 for this application...
6028
days inactive
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12 comments
9 participants
participants (9)
-
alexandre-listas＠e-secure.com.br -
bob＠jfcl.com -
brain＠jbrain.com -
dave06a＠dunfield.com -
jbglaw＠lug-owl.de -
jkunz＠unixag-kl.fh-kl.de -
josefcub＠gmail.com -
mjd.bishop＠emeritus-solutions.com -
ploopster＠gmail.com