2 Feb
2006
2 Feb
'06
4:12 p.m.
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building.
It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect
computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly
competent at working on electronics.
Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics
and computers? Or existing builders?
Comments?
2 Feb
2 Feb
11:40 a.m.
I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at lunch. He's an old ham and
used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their
kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages
them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been
noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to
sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying. I
had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3 each that I took to three
hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired their
own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very few people even change their
own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and laugh. They hang a different
exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first
car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components
deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the
problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building
ANYTHING.
Joe
At 01:12 PM 2/2/06 -0800, you wrote:
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building.
It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect
computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly
competent at working on electronics.
Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics
and computers? Or existing builders?
Comments?
5:01 p.m.
On Thursday 02 February 2006 11:40 am, Joe R. wrote:
I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at
lunch. He's an old ham and
used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their
kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages
them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been
noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to
sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying. I
had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3 each that I took to three
hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired their
own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very few people even change their
own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and laugh. They hang a different
exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first
car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components
deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the
problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building
ANYTHING.
Joe
It's a cultural thing. And for as long as I can remember those that worked
with their hands were looked down on by those who didn't, and that attitude
seems to have carried over into the present day, even though most of those
"white collar" jobs I see are a freakin' joke, and most of the folks who
hold that attitude couldn't say why they do. It also appears to be a very
much urban vs. rural thing, too -- the more rural you are, the more likely
you are not to have that attitude.
At 01:12 PM 2/2/06 -0800, you wrote:
>One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the
>lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
>on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
>argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
>equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building.
>
>It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect
>computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly
>competent at working on electronics.
>
>Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics
>and computers? Or existing builders?
>
>Comments?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
5:08 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building
I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at
lunch. He's an old ham
and
used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how
people don't buy their
kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages
them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been
noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to
sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying.
I
had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3 each
that I took to three
hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired
their
own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very few
people even change
their
own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and laugh.
They hang a different
exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first
car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components
deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the
problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building
ANYTHING.
Joe
I think its because the tools needed to tinker have started getting
expensive, the schematics are hard to find, the equipment itself is so cheap
and outdated so quickly to bother with, large scale integration of many
circuits into proprietary hard to get chips, logic being done with software,
and most important of all its just not cool to do it. People who tinker with
cars these days do it by buying a new chip some engineering company put
allot of effort into making, or extreme bolt on intake packages and nitrous
for those who like melting engines. Most computer hacking these days just
involves software and adapters that convert inputs and maybe some case
modding. People used to get their shoes repaired too, when is the last time
you seen somebody get their Nikes resoled?
The only tools I use are analog (a decent handheld multimeter). My
electronics toolbox consists of a bunch of screwdrivers, a chip puller,
fluke meter, various memory chips and SIMMs, fuses, battery holders, and
jumper wires. All I need it for is to figure out what is blow and swap it
out with another chip (if its socketed) or replace the board if I have to.
For the equipment I collect its not cost effective to buy a scope and
surface mount soldering stuff to repair a $20 machine or a $5 board even if
I knew how to use the equipment. Most of the people who do chip level work
here used to do it for a living, have an electronics background, or work on
equipment that predates surface mount large scale integration. I would think
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity
coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
5:20 p.m.
On 2/2/2006 at 5:08 PM Teo Zenios wrote:
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these
days is be a
commodity
coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of
the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
OT: I picked up the current issues of DDJ, Electronic Design and EETimes
this morning out of the mail. The DDJ ran to a grand total of 56
pages--it's so thin that there's no spine on the binding--it's just stapled
together. ED isn't much better and EET was thinner than my Sunday
newspaper magazine supplement. (P.S. Bob Pease rambled on about crampons).
Signs of the times? Is the computer business in the US running out of
steam?
Cheers,
Chuck
5:36 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:20 PM
Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building
On 2/2/2006 at 5:08 PM Teo Zenios wrote:
stapled
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do
these days is be a
commodity
coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because
of the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
OT: I picked up the current issues of DDJ, Electronic Design and EETimes
this morning out of the mail. The DDJ ran to a grand total of 56
pages--it's so thin that there's no spine on the binding--it's just
together. ED isn't much better and EET was
thinner than my Sunday
newspaper magazine supplement. (P.S. Bob Pease rambled on about
crampons).
Signs of the times? Is the computer business in the US running out of
steam?
Cheers,
Chuck
Go buy the one of each of the top 10 computer brands here in the US and list
all the parts manufactured here in the US, 5 years from now do the same
thing and show me the parts that were designed here in the US. All the
manufacturing is done overseas mostly, now the design work is going there
also. I would think the vast majority of EE's are doing installation work
and not design here anymore (those still working the profession).
5:58 p.m.
In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at game>
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
I would think
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity
coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need
products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no
engineers left?
You can't escape death, and you can't build a business on hot air and empty
promises.
--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA220 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G
... Where do you find 100 talking invertebrates? The US Senate!
6:07 p.m.
On Thursday 02 February 2006 05:58 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote:
In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at
game>
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
You don't think they'll try and outsource that, too?
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I would think
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a
commodity coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low
pay and offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger
flippers, salespeople, and paper shufflers.
Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need
products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no
engineers left?
You can't escape death, and you can't build a business on hot air and empty
promises. 
6:16 p.m.
At 10:58 PM 2/2/2006 +0000, you wrote:
In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at
game>
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
Along these lines, I find it disconcerting that in the back of recent Circuit
Cellar magazines (one of the few, if not only, mags around still targeting
homebrew) there has been a company (http://www.aequus-research.com/)
advertising "Outsourcing to China" of embedded engineering for $15/hour,
including both HW and SW. This would put serious doubt into my choice to
major as an EE/computer scientist if I were making it today.
--tom
I would think
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity
coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need
products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no
engineers left?
6:20 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Philip Pemberton" <philpem at dsl.pipex.com>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 5:58 PM
Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building
empty
In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at
game>
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
> I would think
> the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a
commodity
coder,
engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need
products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no
engineers left?
You can't escape death, and you can't build a business on hot air and
promises.
They do have products to sell, they just happen to be designed and made in a
different country buy engineers who might have been educated and trained
here and then went back to their home country.
The only thing the US and Europe had going for it was inventing industries
and products because of the R&D they used to conduct. Now that R&D is being
done overseas by foreigners you can see our economies are going down the
tubes both in the short term outsourcing of manufacturing and in the long
term brain drain associated with doing R&D in foreign locations with local
engineers.
It is just a matter of time before China cashes in the US dollars it holds
and buys up US tech companies and ships them overseas along with their
patents. Then the MBA's who helped start this offshoring mess will be out of
a job also.
6:38 p.m.
Philip Pemberton wrote:
In message <017801c62845$3e06b800$72781941 at
game>
"Teo Zenios" <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
You don't need an engineer to design the current crop of products - you just
need someone who can push a mouse around on a screen, without any real
understanding of how the bits they're bolting together actually work :-(
The sad truth is, the consumer has no idea how shit the final product is
because they've never actually known any different :(
cheers
Jules
I would think
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity
coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
Yes, but wait until those MBAs and sales guys realise they actually need
products to sell. Who's going to design their products if there are no
engineers left? 
3 Feb
3 Feb
12:33 p.m.
On 2/2/06, Teo Zenios <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
----- Original Message -----
From: "Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2006 11:40 AM
Subject: Re: Old Computer Collecting vs Electronics Building
Case modding is now considered hacking? Blasphemy...
- Mike
I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at
lunch. He's an old ham
and
used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how
people don't buy their
kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages
them to build things. I don't know all the reasons why but I've been
noticing for years that FEW people build or repair things. I've tried to
sell electonic companents and tools at the hamfests and no one is buying.
I
had a big box of top quality Utica tools for $3
each that I took to three
hamfests and I sold ONE tool. When I was growing up MOST men repaired
their
own cars (at least minor repairs) but now very
few people even change
their
own oil. I look at the modern hot roders and
laugh. They hang a different
exhaust tip on their car and think they have a race car! I BUILT my first
car (Meyers Manx dunebuggy). I think the small size of the components
deters SOME repairs/projects but I think that's only a small part of the
problem. Most people are totally clueless about repairing or building
ANYTHING.
Joe
I think its because the tools needed to tinker have started getting
expensive, the schematics are hard to find, the equipment itself is so cheap
and outdated so quickly to bother with, large scale integration of many
circuits into proprietary hard to get chips, logic being done with software,
and most important of all its just not cool to do it. People who tinker with
cars these days do it by buying a new chip some engineering company put
allot of effort into making, or extreme bolt on intake packages and nitrous
for those who like melting engines. Most computer hacking these days just
involves software and adapters that convert inputs and maybe some case
modding. People used to get their shoes repaired too, when is the last time
you seen somebody get their Nikes resoled?
The only tools I use are analog (a decent handheld multimeter). My
electronics toolbox consists of a bunch of screwdrivers, a chip puller,
fluke meter, various memory chips and SIMMs, fuses, battery holders, and
jumper wires. All I need it for is to figure out what is blow and swap it
out with another chip (if its socketed) or replace the board if I have to.
For the equipment I collect its not cost effective to buy a scope and
surface mount soldering stuff to repair a $20 machine or a $5 board even if
I knew how to use the equipment. Most of the people who do chip level work
here used to do it for a living, have an electronics background, or work on
equipment that predates surface mount large scale integration. I would think
the last thing a parent wants their kids to do these days is be a commodity
coder, engineer, or electronics repairman because of the low pay and
offshoring. We are turning into a nation of MBAs, burger flippers,
salespeople, and paper shufflers.
2 Feb
2 Feb
6:28 p.m.
In article <3.0.6.16.20060202164030.4107b960 at pop-server.cfl.rr.com>,
"Joe R." <rigdonj at cfl.rr.com> writes:
I was talking to a buddy of mine about this at
lunch. He's an old ham and
used to build a lot of stuff. We were noting how people don't buy their
kids things like Tinker Toys or Erector sets or anything that encourages
them to build things. [...]
<shrug> It depends on the person and the area. For instance, robot
competitions with kit robots are very popular these days. I know
people that work on cars with custom mods and whatnot, but for special
applications like 4-wheeling in southern Utah.
Me, I was never a motor head. A car is a tool to me, not a device I
feel like learning about. My computers are the opposite.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
10:07 p.m.
Joe R. wrote:
Most people are totally clueless about repairing or
building
ANYTHING.
Not sure if that's a shame or not. For example, I am one of those
schleps who pay someone to "change my oil" -- this is because my time is
extremely valuable. Money, I can scrape up; time, I can't.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
3 Feb
3 Feb
4:48 a.m.
Joe R. wrote:
Offtopic, but...
I always take the time to change the oil in my cars myself. Why? Because
it takes ten minutes and I know that it has the right kind of good quality
oil and filters. Since all three cars have very different requirements,
(fully synthetic ?30-per-gallon stuff for the XM, 20W50 thick goop for the
CX and 10W40 for the AX, and genuine Purflux filters which are the right
part but don't come with a Citro?n sticker on the box and therefore are
1/4 the price).
I know it's a bit arrogant, but I take the "if you want a thing done
properly, do it yourself" attitude to pretty much all my work.
Gordon.
Most people are totally clueless about repairing
or building
ANYTHING.
Not sure if that's a shame or not. For example, I am one of those
schleps who pay someone to "change my oil" -- this is because my time is
extremely valuable. Money, I can scrape up; time, I can't. 
2:21 p.m.
Offtopic, but...
I always take the time to change the oil in my cars myself. Why? Becaus=
e
I do all work on my father's car myself. Why? Because quite literally my
life could be at risk if it wos done wrongly, and I am not going to risk
that.
I know it's a bit arrogant, but I take the
"if you want a thing done
properly, do it yourself" attitude to pretty much all my work.
I suffer from the same problem.... I've learnt to trust nobody else (this
is, alas, based on hard experience)
-tony
2 Feb
2 Feb
4:51 p.m.
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to homebrew with, and I
am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs as/when I have to. That
said, there are plenty of pin-through-hole parts around still.
Nor do I buy the argument that it's not worth homebrewing as you can buy
a better unit for less. Firstly what you buy ready made is often not
better than that which you could build. Secondly, there are plenty of
things you can't buy. And thirdly, nothing (IMHO) compares with the
feeling when one of your homebrew designs works.
And what about programming? 20 years ago (or so), most people who bought
a home computer learnt to program, at least in BASIC. Many went on to
learn other languages. Now, I'll bet that most computer owners have never
written a line of code in their lives. Even though computers are a lot
more common than they were 20 years ago, I suspect the total number of
amateur programmers has decreased. And yet the programming tools
are now even eaier to obtain than they were 25 years ago (there are free
versions of most ocmmon languages, home computers are powerful enough to
run said free versions).
There are still a number of people in the UK who make mechanical clocks
at home. To make a clock, you can expend to spend \pounds 100 on metal,
and about as much again (if not more) on the gear cutters. That assumes
you already have a lathe, dividing head, etc. And the result is a worse
timekeeper than any 5 quid quartz clock. Don't get me wrong. The clocks
they make are beuatiful, and I would love to be able to make one (in
fact, I fully intend to do so sometime). But financially it makes no
sense at all, unless you consider the enjoyment and education you get by
making said clock -- things that also apply to homebrewing electronics.
That said, though, there are not that many model engineers or amateur
clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many
electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids
have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering.
There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid
jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a
football or strum a guitar. And the educational system seems to be
designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately,
it didn't work on me).
-tony
5:15 p.m.
On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 21:51 +0000, Tony Duell wrote:
Actually, I saw an article (I have to find out where it was) where I guy
used an old toaster oven as a basis for soldering all sorts of surface
mount components at once...ie just like the "real" assembly houses do
it.
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to homebrew with, and I
am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs as/when I have to. That
said, there are plenty of pin-through-hole parts around still. That said, though, there are not that many model
engineers or amateur
clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many
electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids
have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering.
There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid
jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a
football or strum a guitar.
...or (in the US atleast) become lawyers.
And the educational system seems to be
designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately,
it didn't work on me).
I have too many (horror) stories about how the schools here fail...I
won't use the list bandwidth to go into them.
--
TTFN - Guy
6:20 p.m.
In message <1138918548.7731.33.camel at r003519>
Guy Sotomayor <ggs at shiresoft.com> wrote:
Actually, I saw an article (I have to find out where
it was) where I guy
used an old toaster oven as a basis for soldering all sorts of surface
mount components at once...ie just like the "real" assembly houses do
it.
www.seattlerobotics.org -> Encoder
The guy you're thinking about is (IIRC) Kenneth Maxon.
I have too many (horror) stories about how the schools
here fail...I
won't use the list bandwidth to go into them.
Try the UK ones if you want to see failure... Chemistry (in practical form at
least) is basically gone, too unsafe - replaced almost entirely by
simulations and theory. The few good science teachers that are left don't get
to teach properly, for fear of some parent suing them because little Jimmy
burned his finger on a Bunsen burner.
Compensation culture is evil. "Everything is someone else's fault". Parents
these days are far too overprotective... Kids don't get to play out for fear
of paedophiles and murderers roaming the streets (two words for you:
"highly unlikely" - two more: "media exaggeraton"). So they sit
inside
playing on their Playstations and Gameboys and eating microwave meals. Why
the hell does nobody cook anything from scratch anymore?
The more I observe the world, the more I realise it's gone to the dogs.
--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G
... Reactance: your imaginary friend.
6:20 p.m.
In message <m1F4mMJ-000IyFC at p850ug1>
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to
homebrew with, and I
Yeah, I've done SMD soldering down to 0604 passives, SOT23 transistors, and
TSSOP ICs. I've even tried soldering down the little leadless packages ADI
use for their uMEMS accelerometers - not too hard, with the right tools and
plenty of rosin flux.
am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs
as/when I have to.
Enamelled copper wire soldered to the balls dead-bug style?
Nor do I buy the argument that it's not worth
homebrewing as you can buy
a better unit for less. Firstly what you buy ready made is often not
better than that which you could build. Secondly, there are plenty of
things you can't buy. And thirdly, nothing (IMHO) compares with the
feeling when one of your homebrew designs works.
Hell yeah.
Even though computers are a lot
more common than they were 20 years ago, I suspect the total number of
amateur programmers has decreased. And yet the programming tools
are now even eaier to obtain than they were 25 years ago (there are free
versions of most ocmmon languages, home computers are powerful enough to
run said free versions).
It's a bit much to expect the average Joe to learn to program when he can't
even learn not to open the EXE attachments on his emails. "But it was from a
friend!" / "And it takes five seconds to email back and ask 'Did you really
mean to send me this? What is it?', so why didn't you do it?"
FFS, if you're going to buy a computer, you might as well learn to secure it
properly. There really should be a requirement for licensing of computer
owners/users - if you can't prove you can secure a machine properly, you
don't get to own one...
And the result is a worse
timekeeper than any 5 quid quartz clock. Don't get me wrong. The clocks
they make are beuatiful, and I would love to be able to make one (in
fact, I fully intend to do so sometime). But financially it makes no
sense at all, unless you consider the enjoyment and education you get by
making said clock -- things that also apply to homebrewing electronics.
It's the beauty of the thing that's appealing though. You'll never find a
clock in a shop that looks anywhere near as nice - everything you see these
days is plastic, plastic and more plastic.
And I wouldn't be so sure about quartz clocks being more accurate, especially
the cheap ones... I'd rather tie a GPS receiver to a PIC and build a "totally
accurate clock" of some description.
That said, though, there are not that many model
engineers or amateur
clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many
electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids
have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering.
There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid
jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a
football or strum a guitar. And the educational system seems to be
designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately,
it didn't work on me).
Me neither. I pissed my science teacher off no end by continually asking "So
if X does Y, how does Y work?" type questions. Got hauled in front of the
headmaster a few times for that, too. Still didn't stop me. :)
--
Phil. | Kitsune: Acorn RiscPC SA202 64M+6G ViewFinder
philpem at dsl.pipex.com | Cheetah: Athlon64 3200+ A8VDeluxeV2 512M+100G
http://www.philpem.me.uk/ | Tiger: Toshiba SatPro4600 Celeron700 256M+40G
... Profanity, the language computerists know.
6:24 p.m.
On Thursday 02 February 2006 06:20 pm, Philip Pemberton wrote:
It's the beauty of the thing that's appealing
though. You'll never find a
clock in a shop that looks anywhere near as nice - everything you see these
days is plastic, plastic and more plastic.
Yeah, and some of those plastics degrade over time, too. Get brittle, and
fall apart...
I knew a guy who used to collect and refurbish old radios, but he didn't
bother with anything that had plastic cases.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
9:18 p.m.
I knew a guy who used to collect and refurbish old
radios, but he didn't
bother with anything that had plastic cases.
Probably because the plastic used on old radios is amongst the worst ever
made. No fault of theirs, of course - plastic back then and plastic now
are very different animals.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
3 Feb
3 Feb
12:29 a.m.
On 2/2/2006 at 9:18 PM William Donzelli wrote:
Probably because the plastic used on old radios is
amongst the worst ever
made. No fault of theirs, of course - plastic back then and plastic now
are very different animals.
Your comment sent me to the bathroom vanity, where, in a bottom drawer, my
wife has an old transistor radio with leather case and with a slightly
cracked case back. On the front is "ALL TRANSISTOR" on the back is "NT-6B
Nippon Electric Co., Ltd. JAPAN". Does anyone collect old Japanese
transistor radios? This one still works, but probably doesn't put out more
than about 50 mw of sound.
Cheers,
Chuck
12:12 p.m.
Your comment sent me to the bathroom vanity, where, in
a bottom drawer, my
wife has an old transistor radio with leather case and with a slightly
cracked case back. On the front is "ALL TRANSISTOR" on the back is
"NT-6B
Nippon Electric Co., Ltd. JAPAN". Does anyone collect old Japanese
transistor radios? This one still works, but probably doesn't put out more
than about 50 mw of sound.
Discrete transistors are no fun in radios. They are only fun in computers.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
12:15 p.m.
--- William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> wrote:
O please. Trannys rock! I don't collect old radios
per se, but that seems like an interesting piece. NEC.
Usually you see other names like Panasonic etc.
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
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Your comment
sent me to the bathroom vanity,
where, in a bottom drawer, my
wife has an old transistor radio with leather
case
and with a slightly
cracked case back. On the front is "ALL
TRANSISTOR" on the back is "NT-6B
Nippon Electric Co., Ltd. JAPAN". Does
anyone
collect old Japanese
transistor radios? This one still works, but
probably doesn't put out more
than about 50 mw of sound.
Discrete transistors are no fun in radios. They are
only fun in computers. 
1:56 a.m.
FFS, if you're going to buy a computer, you might
as well learn to
secure it properly. There really should be a requirement for
licensing of computer owners/users - if you can't prove you can
secure a machine properly, you don't get to own one...
Except, where are you going to find license examiners competent to
evaluate whether someone can secure a machine properly? I would be
totally astonished to find them doing anything but Windows and maybe
Macintoshes, and here of all places knows that's not all computers are.
Also, minor quibble - I have no problem with incompetent idiots owning
cokmputers, any more than I do with incompetent drivers owning cars.
It's only when they connect to the net - or want to take them on the
public roads - that there's any reason for the State to get involved.
/~\ The ASCII der Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents.montreal.qc.ca
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
2 Feb
2 Feb
6:30 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
That said, though, there are not that many model
engineers or amateur
clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many
electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most kids
have realised that there is no point going into science/engineering.
There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those areas. Well paid
jobs (at least in the UK) seem to reserved for those who can kick a
football or strum a guitar. And the educational system seems to be
designed to remove any curiousity that a child might have (fortunately,
it didn't work on me).
You know, I think those sorts of skills will come back, at least in Europe.
Landfill taxes are set to go through the roof in the next few decades, and
there will likely be all sorts of Government incentives to persuade consumers
to repair and recycle equipment rather than simply dumping it as they do now
- hopefully there'll be a lot more call for skilled repair people as a result.
Not sure what the situation is like in the US though - after all there's a lot
more space, and so far there doesn't seem to be much concern for using what we
have rather than simply making more (I realise that probably isn't true for
inhabitants of this list :)
cheers
Jules
7:07 p.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
Nor do I buy the argument that it's not worth
homebrewing as you can
buy a better unit for less. Firstly what you buy ready made is often
not better than that which you could build.
For suitable values of "you". I don't think my teenagers could
put together a radio (without quite a bit of guidance) and I
bet it would not support RDS :-) I wasn't much better at their
age either.
Secondly,
there are
plenty of things you can't buy.
Like what? Please restrict yourself to something a kid would
want to build. I'll even allow you to aim for something I
would have wanted to build as a teenager _before_ I wandered
into electronics.
And thirdly, nothing
(IMHO) compares
with the feeling when one of your homebrew designs works.
Agreed. And that probably applies to almost any building activity.
Even getting my first flat-pack cupboard to stand upright many
years ago was a source of some satisfaction :-) But I certainly
didn't start out thinking that I would enjoy the feeling of
successfully building something. For me it was mostly because
I had a couple of friends who were into electronics plus I
enjoyed anything scientific anyway.
And what about programming? 20 years ago (or so), most
people who
bought a home computer learnt to program, at least in BASIC. Many
went on to learn other languages. Now, I'll bet that most computer
owners have never written a line of code in their lives. Even though
computers are a lot more common than they were 20 years ago, I
suspect the total number of amateur programmers has decreased. And
yet the programming tools
are now even eaier to obtain than they were 25 years ago (there are
free versions of most ocmmon languages, home computers are powerful
enough to run said free versions).
But most of the computers sold today are tools (to get on the net,
to play games, to write letters etc.). I guess gaming played a
part too even back then, but you were much more likely to be
exposed to programming if you had to type in a listing from
a magazine before you could blast your aliens!
That said, though, there are not that many model
engineers or amateur
clockmakers in the UK. Just as there are a few, but not that many
electronics hackers. And I think one of the reasons is simple. Most
kids have realised that there is no point going into
science/engineering. There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in
those areas.
There are still model engineering clubs around. There's one in north
Oxford, they even display their home-built trains on a purpose
built track. Last time I was there (which was a few years ago now)
there were even some younger members (late teenagers, early twenties).
And there are a few of us at work who can pick up a soldering iron
without leaving burn marks on skin. Not that any of us are actually
_paid_ to do that though. Job satisfaction is still to be had in
those areas (I enjoy my job, for example), the problem is convincing
the anyone that it's true and will remain true for long enough for
them to get started on the career ladder.
Well paid jobs (at least in the UK) seem
to reserved
for those who can kick a football or strum a guitar.
I won't argue that some of them are not well paid, but a
fair few of them don't seem to be able to _consistently_
kick a ball well :-)
Antonio
--
Antonio carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
3 Feb
3 Feb
1:38 a.m.
Tony Duell wrote:
I most certainly believe that newer devices are problematic.
Older SMD is doable, newer stuff is getting very hard. One 432 pin BGA
FPGA MIGHT be doable in the converted toaster, but what is the
successrate going to be if you need say 4 or 5 BGAs in your design ?
I wanted to construct a efficient LED lighting system for my bike.
Turns out all these white led driver IC ic s are in MLP or TDFN
packages.... Not even a SOT8 variant available.
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
Nor do I. The larger SMD parts are perfectly easy to homebrew with, and I
am quite sure _I'll_ find a way to use even BGAs as/when I have to. That
said, there are plenty of pin-through-hole parts around still. things you can't buy. And thirdly, nothing (IMHO)
compares with the
feeling when one of your homebrew designs works.
That, of course, is very true.
There are no good well-paid, satisfying jobs in those
areas.
You probably look in the wrong places. I know a UK based electronics
designer (ic designer, not self-employed), who makes 50K pounds a year.
Sounds pretty decent to me....
One reason has to be that her skillset does NOT include knowing how to
use TTL.
In general, for those listreaders with fear of the future of technics in
Europe or the US (and I am also one of those engineers whose job will
end up in Shanghai):
There are examples of very successful, small, Europe-based companies
being run by tinkerers. My favorite ( sorry, very OT, not electronics
based )is www.velomobiel.nl
They (3 people) design and build their products themselves, in expensive
Europe, are already fully booked until the end of 2009 and make a decent
living from it.
It is all about being inventive and having the right product and
quality. I certainly enjoy my Mango.....
Jos Dreesen
2 Feb
2 Feb
4:52 p.m.
On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:12 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote:
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is
what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building.
I sure as heck know that *my* eyes aren't what they used to be...
Back around the time I closed up my shop (spring of 1992) I found that I was
increasingly using a lighted magnifier for more routine tasks. These days if
I want to read the numbers on a transistor or a chip I reach for a magnifying
glass. It sucks.
It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know
that collect
computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly
competent at working on electronics.
Made my living at it, for a while. When there was a market for such skills,
which there doesn't seem to be any more. :-(
Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries
into electronics
and computers? Or existing builders?
What kits I remember seeing any more are either way too simple, designed more
as learning environments than kits, or come with major portions of it
preassembled. The last one I put together was in 1978, and that was a
Heathkit H11 computer -- which came with the CPU board preassembled.
These days I have this massive collection of parts and I keep on salvaging
more, yet the simplest circuit board seems to be so _tedious_ compared with
the way I used to feel about it.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
5:14 p.m.
In 2/2/2006 at 4:52 PM Roy J. Tellason wrote:
I sure as heck know that *my* eyes aren't what they
used to be...
Back around the time I closed up my shop (spring of 1992) I found that I
was increasingly using a lighted magnifier for more routine tasks. These
days
if I want to read the numbers on a transistor or a chip
I reach for a
magnifying glass. It sucks.
Invest in a binocular loupe (or several of them). My arsenal includes a
few jewelers' loupes as well as the binocular sort. What I reall like to
get my hands on is the gizmo that dentists and neurosurgeons use that clips
to their glasses. Sort of a miniature telescope. The last time I priced
one of these, it was several hundred dollars, however.
For working on larger things, I have several sets of inexpensive reading
glasses in variouis powers.
Now, if someone could offer suggestions for stedying hands around these
tiny widgets, I'd really be happy.
CHeers,
Chuck
2 Feb
2 Feb
5:16 p.m.
I disagree with this quite a bit. There are plenty of projects out
there people are doing. I see lots of stuff on hackaday.com,
avrfreaks.com, people in the Microchip forums, homebrew CPUs, etc.
There's no loss of desire at all. Sure, maybe it's not all built of
TTL, but so what? TTL is slowly going away (IMHO), in favor of micros,
FPGAs, and PLDs. To say the interest in building skills is waning just
says to me you're not looking in the right places.
--jc
On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:12 pm, Marvin Johnston wrote:
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is
what seems to be
the lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the
desire to
work on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building.
5:33 p.m.
At 04:52 PM 2/2/2006 -0500, Roy J. Tellason wrote:
There is still some market for such skills, but it is certainly dwindling.
A friend of mine opened a repair shop after he retired and after experimenting
with various different markets, he found his niche with industrial repairs.
There are still quite a number of DEC terminals (and the like) in use in
industry and they require service. As far as consumer product repair, it
is often cheaper to just buy a new one and throw the old one away. Failure
just gives the consumer a reason to upgrade to the latest/greatest gizmo.
The local electronics store (we still have one amazingly, and it isn't
a Radio Shack) still caries some kits. I've even been tempted to buy one
a couple of times, but haven't. I keep going through the cost comparison
equation in my head and have a hard time justifying paying much more for
a kit than a finished product.
--tom
On Thursday 02 February 2006 04:12 pm, Marvin Johnston
wrote:
After 40, my eyes experienced a similar degradation. Fortunately modern
circuit board assembly with surface mount is aided by a good microscope
anyway, so the eye failure is not that big of a detriment.
I believe that the reason why people don't seem to have as much interest
in electronics today as in the past is because we a inundated with electronic
devices of every conceivable kind, everywhere we look. Back in the day, I
(and I believe others) used to have the desire to build a micro computer
simply because the only computer access was available from some large machine
at a university or similar. Also, as micro computers did slowly become
available, they were very expensive and building your own was the only
financial path to owning one for many people. I think that electronic
kits are similar in that for most, while they may have the ability to build
their own gear, the desire is at least partially driven by the cost of
ownership of whatever gizmo the kit turns into. As most any gizmo is
now readily available at some ridiculously cheap cost, at least as compared
to an equivalent kit, the kits are not in demand.
One thing I've been concerned about for a
while is what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building.
I sure as heck know that *my* eyes aren't what they used to be...
Back around the time I closed up my shop (spring of 1992) I found that I was
increasingly using a lighted magnifier for more routine tasks. These days if
I want to read the numbers on a transistor or a chip I reach for a magnifying
glass. It sucks. It also seems
that most (not all) of the people I know that collect
computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly
competent at working on electronics.
Made my living at it, for a while. When there was a market for such skills,
which there doesn't seem to be any more. :-( Are kits at
all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics
and computers? Or existing builders?
What kits I remember seeing any more are either way too simple, designed
more
as learning environments than kits, or come with major portions of it
preassembled. The last one I put together was in 1978, and that was a
Heathkit H11 computer -- which came with the CPU board preassembled.
These days I have this massive collection of parts and I keep on salvaging
more, yet the simplest circuit board seems to be so _tedious_ compared with
the way I used to feel about it.
5:50 p.m.
On Thursday 02 February 2006 05:33 pm, Tom Uban wrote:
There is still some market for such skills, but it is certainly dwindling.
A friend of mine opened a repair shop after he retired and after
experimenting with various different markets, he found his niche with
industrial repairs.
I've done some of that, too, but the general market for such stuff around
here seems to be in terms of companies having people on staff full-time. And
those positions that I've applied for I haven't gotten. It does seem to me
though that industrial electronics might be one of the few places left where
I could apply my skillset.
The local electronics store (we still have one amazingly, and it isn't
a Radio Shack) still caries some kits. I've even been tempted to buy one
a couple of times, but haven't. I keep going through the cost comparison
equation in my head and have a hard time justifying paying much more for
a kit than a finished product.
What sort of kits are they offering? I might be tempted for those situations
where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the perfboard
route...
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
I believe that the reason why people don't seem to
have as much interest
in electronics today as in the past is because we a inundated with
electronic devices of every conceivable kind, everywhere we look. Back in
the day, I (and I believe others) used to have the desire to build a micro
computer simply because the only computer access was available from some
large machine at a university or similar. Also, as micro computers did
slowly become available, they were very expensive and building your own was
the only financial path to owning one for many people.
I think you're probably right about this. I have had many thoughts about
building computers over the years, that kept on morphing into different
things as time went on, but eventually I just acquired some working hardware
and started _using_ it. Which, in spite of my continuing to accumulate all
sorts of hardware bits these days, is still where I end up spending most of
my time.
I think that electronic kits are similar in that for
most, while they may
have the ability to build their own gear, the desire is at least partially
driven by the cost of ownership of whatever gizmo the kit turns into. As
most any gizmo is now readily available at some ridiculously cheap cost, at
least as compared to an equivalent kit, the kits are not in demand.
Yes. There's little or no fascination with building a radio when you can buy
a radio that's cheaper than the kit...
It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know
that collect
computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly
competent at working on electronics.
Made my living at it, for a while. When there was a market for such
skills, which there doesn't seem to be any more. :-( There are still quite a number of DEC terminals (and
the like) in use in
industry and they require service. As far as consumer product repair, it is
often cheaper to just buy a new one and throw the old one away.
Often? Seems more like always to me, lately. People have no idea what it
takes to support repairs, in terms of not just the place but the equipment,
the parts you should have on hand, the skillset that has to be constantly
honed when new equipment comes out (often!), the service manuals, and the
absurdly-priced manufacturer's parts kits that some of them seem to insist
that you get from them (a gimmick to dispose of excess inventory, I'm sure).
Failure just gives the consumer a reason to upgrade to
the latest/greatest
gizmo.
I think they do that on purpose.
Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries
into electronics
and computers? Or existing builders?
What kits I remember seeing any more are either way too simple, designed
more as learning environments than kits, or come with major portions of it
preassembled. The last one I put together was in 1978, and that was a
Heathkit H11 computer -- which came with the CPU board preassembled.
These days I have this massive collection of parts and I keep on salvaging
more, yet the simplest circuit board seems to be so _tedious_ compared
with the way I used to feel about it.
6:05 p.m.
Often? Seems more like always to me, lately. People
have no idea what it
takes to support repairs, in terms of not just the place but the equipment,
the parts you should have on hand, the skillset that has to be constantly
honed when new equipment comes out (often!), the service manuals, and the
absurdly-priced manufacturer's parts kits that some of them seem to insist
that you get from them (a gimmick to dispose of excess inventory, I'm sure).
These are all valid points. I said often because I didn't want to make a
statement that I couldn't back up. Doesn't there have to be a kit somewhere
which is cheaper than buying the finished product? Maybe not... :-(
What sort of kits are they offering? I might be
tempted for those situations
where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the perfboard
route...
The next time I stop in I will compile a list and post it.
--tom
6:17 p.m.
>What sort of kits are they offering? I might be
tempted for those situations
>where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the perfboard
>route...
I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Try building a radio on a breadboard!
Screw down the transformers, octal sockets, etc., just like they did 50
years ago.
Alternatively, a lot of really good radios are built on nothing but
solid unetched PC board (as a ground plane) using "dead bug" construction.
Or hacked-into-squares-of-conductor board using "Manhattan" construction.
It's a true art form - and actually extremely sturdy.
Tim.
6:21 p.m.
On Thursday 02 February 2006 06:17 pm, Tim Shoppa wrote:
Yeah.
>What sort
of kits are they offering? I might be tempted for those
> situations where just having a board is nice, as opposed to going the
> perfboard route...
I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Try building a radio on a breadboard! Screw down the
transformers, octal
sockets, etc., just like they did 50 years ago.
Hey, I *have* some octal sockets, anyhow, and even some of those that are
for the older tubes, too. No tubes, though.
Alternatively, a lot of really good radios are built
on nothing but
solid unetched PC board (as a ground plane) using "dead bug" construction.
Point-to-point with a ground plane. I haven't tried it yet.
Or hacked-into-squares-of-conductor board using
"Manhattan" construction.
It's a true art form - and actually extremely sturdy.
Yeah, but not too terribly repairable.
--
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James
M Dakin
3 Feb
3 Feb
7:07 a.m.
On 2/3/06, Tim Shoppa <shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com> wrote:
I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Try
building a radio on a breadboard!
Screw down the transformers, octal sockets, etc., just like they did 50
years ago.
Two years ago, I built a COSMAC Elf right out of the pages of the
1977-1978 Popular Electronics articles, on perfboard, down to the 1861
'Pixie' chip. The most modern facet of my implementation was that I
couldn't find a 74L00 for the clock divider, so I happen to have a
1970s TTL part in there at the moment.
Some of those old projects can be hard to find parts for (especially
the RTL-logic-based projects from the early 1970s), but there's plenty
of material to work from there.
-ethan
1:21 p.m.
In article <f4eb766f0602030407o3dac064amaac33e0f6fb09e0 at mail.gmail.com>,
Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com> writes:
On 2/3/06, Tim Shoppa <shoppa_classiccmp at
trailing-edge.com> wrote:
Is the Popular Electronis article scanned online? This sounds kinda
cool! And a nice way to get a little experience without damaging
anything hard to find.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
I suspect you mean "PC board" :-(. Try
building a radio on a breadboard!
Screw down the transformers, octal sockets, etc., just like they did 50
years ago.
Two years ago, I built a COSMAC Elf right out of the pages of the
1977-1978 Popular Electronics articles, on perfboard, down to the 1861
'Pixie' chip. The most modern facet of my implementation was that I
couldn't find a 74L00 for the clock divider, so I happen to have a
1970s TTL part in there at the moment.
Some of those old projects can be hard to find parts for (especially
the RTL-logic-based projects from the early 1970s), but there's plenty
of material to work from there.
-ethan
4:07 a.m.
Hi,
Roy J. Tellason said:
Sometimes what you want is simply not available ready built, or the kit one
is better/cheaper than ready-made. See:
http://www.elecraft.com/ or http://www.ten-tec.com/
for some American kits. The radio kit market is doing quite well atm.
--
Cheers,
Stan Barr stanb at dial.pipex.com
The future was never like this!
On Thursday 02 February 2006 05:33 pm, Tom Uban wrote:
I think that
electronic kits are similar in that for most, while they may
have the ability to build their own gear, the desire is at least partially
driven by the cost of ownership of whatever gizmo the kit turns into. As
most any gizmo is now readily available at some ridiculously cheap cost, at
least as compared to an equivalent kit, the kits are not in demand.
Yes. There's little or no fascination with building a radio when you can buy
a radio that's cheaper than the kit...
2 Feb
2 Feb
5:51 p.m.
Marvin Johnston <marvin at rain.org> wrote:
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is
what seems to be the
lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire to work
on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why. I DO NOT BUY the
argument that components are so small now that nobody can build or hack
equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for not building.
It also seems that most (not all) of the people I know that collect
computers now (and used them in the 70's and early 80's) are fairly
competent at working on electronics.
Are kits at all desireable to build by newer entries into electronics
and computers? Or existing builders?
There are a lot of things to build that are not "computers" in the
box-that-sits-on-a-desk-with-disk-storage-and-CRT-and-keyboard realm,
but are interesting electronics.
Lots of fun is to be had playing with microcontrollers for all sorts of
purposes.
Analog computers are always imminently hackable. Try building a circuit
for integrating the Lorentz equations for example. Turn a knob, and you're
tweaking the constants!
At the anti-digital end, some of us are still building radios with tubes
and coils :-).
I'm not going to say that there is no computer stuff to be built,
I'm just saying that many of us have been there, done that, and now
choose to do other things which we find more fulfilling.
Tim.
7:06 p.m.
In article <20060202225134.F0C4A8C00A4 at mini-me.trailing-edge.com>,
shoppa_classiccmp at trailing-edge.com (Tim Shoppa) writes:
There are a lot of things to build that are not
"computers" in the
box-that-sits-on-a-desk-with-disk-storage-and-CRT-and-keyboard realm,
but are interesting electronics.
Lots of fun is to be had playing with microcontrollers for all sorts of
purposes.
Analog computers are always imminently hackable. Try building a circuit
for integrating the Lorentz equations for example. Turn a knob, and you're
tweaking the constants!
Don't forget things like building your own earthquake detector or
weather station. I have a kit book for these sorts of projects. They
are fun, cool to integrate with a uP for data recording/analysis and
are easy to build with low-cost components and electromechanical gear.
My interest in this sort of electronics is in making weird
electrokinetic sculpture type machines. Survival Research
Laboratories, anyone?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
6:52 p.m.
Marvin Johnston wrote:
One thing I've been concerned about for a while is
what seems to be
the lack of electronics building skills. *My* feeling is the desire
to work on this stuff is going away and I'm not sure why.
Because you can buy X for much less than it would cost you to
build X, in fact you can probably buy X for much less than the
cost of building the subset of X that you actually want.
It must be very hard making a living wage fixing TVs etc. these days.
You can still make money designing electronics (at least we employ
some such people in the UK so I assume they earn at least enough
to eat :-)) but I'm not sure that this will continue to be the
case for much longer. The same goes for software engineers like me.
There's nothing that we do that could not in principle be done
almost anywhere else in the world - and there are plenty of
places where it is cheaper to hire workers than in the UK.
I'm sure that argument must be pretty obvious to most people
(perhaps not to teenagers, but certainly their parents must
know and the vibes will filter through).
BUY the argument that components are so small now that
nobody can
build or hack equipment anymore as I view that more of an excuse for
not building.
I do not buy that argument either. Most people never even open
the box up so the size of the components is not something they
know about! For that matter, most people do not fix their
washing machines or dishwashers or vacuum cleaners ...
and none of those (that I've had to play with) have small
components in them.
Antonio
--
Antonio carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
9:36 p.m.
At 05:52 PM 2/2/2006, a.carlini at ntlworld.com wrote:
It must be very hard making a living wage fixing TVs
etc. these days.
I had my $500 Sony TV repaired the old fashion way last summer.
For $200 total or so, out of warranty, a guy from a big TV/appliance
regional chain drove 40 minutes, debugged which transistor was
flakey, then made the return trip with the replacement and
resoldered it right there in my living room. Fairly old school,
maybe 55 or so. But looking inside the TV, it was clear there
weren't that many non-IC non-daughterboard parts. My problem was
relatively simple; the TV wouldn't turn on reliably.
But so few things are repaired these days. I know the IT people
at several nearby school systems. Regional consortiums (called
CESA in WI) once repaired their small electronic equipment, but
now they're gone and now they're stuck. Where to go to repair
a laser printer? An overhead projector?
It was the CESA that once provided the dial-up DEC access that
I used in middle school and high school, circa '77-81.
The writing is on the wall for so many TVs to be replaced by
purely digital devices. Not all, but many. Look at the average
Joe and Jane who see the Media Edition bundles for $2K or so
at Best Buy - the salesdroid tells them they can load 90 DVDs
or 200 CDs to the hard drive or get movies off the net, they lust
over the big flat panel, and the lightbulb goes on over their head.
- John
3 Feb
3 Feb
1:49 p.m.
I had my $500 Sony TV repaired the old fashion way
last summer.
For $200 total or so, out of warranty, a guy from a big TV/appliance
regional chain drove 40 minutes, debugged which transistor was
I'm wondering why you didn't just grab the service manual from the shelf
and track it down yourself... It couldn't have taken that long.
Actually, that's one reason I repair instead of replace, even on old
stuff. Having invested in the service manual, and in some cases made up
extension leads. test jigs, etc, I don't want to have to do all that
again because I've bought some new device.
flakey, then made the return trip with the replacement
and
resoldered it right there in my living room. Fairly old school,
maybe 55 or so. But looking inside the TV, it was clear there
weren't that many non-IC non-daughterboard parts. My problem was
In the UK, if TVs are repaired at all, then the daughterboards are also
repaired to compoennt level, even when they contain 100+ pin SMD ICs.
Boardswapping in consumer electronics is relatively uncommon over here,
at least from what I've read.
relatively simple; the TV wouldn't turn on
reliably.
But so few things are repaired these days. I know the IT people
at several nearby school systems. Regional consortiums (called
CESA in WI) once repaired their small electronic equipment, but
now they're gone and now they're stuck. Where to go to repair
a laser printer? An overhead projector?
And just how many components are there in an OHP? And how hard is it to
trace the fault with nothing mroe than a multimeter?
-tony
6749
days inactive
6750
days old
47 comments
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