25 Sep
2012
25 Sep
'12
10:27 p.m.
What strange remark have you had about your collection?
here is mine:
I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup
with disk/CDs, books, magazines around them
a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the A1200 came in
the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?"
---
tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do"
Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML -
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks
3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF 2012 Plus
Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok DC330 cutter/pen plotter
Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh (6502/68k/PPC
only)?
10:31 a.m.
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Hash: SHA1
On 09/26/2012 12:18 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
WHO[m?] do you show it to?
I use mine to attract women.
Barry
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9:51 a.m.
On 09/26/2012 01:58 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote:
is it even usefull anymore
...as if its ability to process data has somehow diminished over the
years. As I mentioned a moment ago, I don't associate with such people.
There are plenty of "thinking" people in the world...one doesn't need
to suffer through the non-thinkers.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:32 a.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
...as if its ability to process data has somehow
diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses.
11:24 a.m.
On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
"Thanks, Microsoft."
[cue Rabid Richard]
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
...as if its ability to process data has
somehow diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. 
12:12 p.m.
(Clippy) "It looks like you're trying to write a thank you letter... May I
suggest.."
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 14:24:14
To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
"Thanks, Microsoft."
[cue Rabid Richard]
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
...as if its ability to process data has
somehow diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. 
12:54 p.m.
On 2012-09-26, at 2:24 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits
per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core
Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
"Thanks, Microsoft."
[cue Rabid Richard]
...as if its ability to process data has somehow
diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses.
2:45 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 03:54 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
"Thanks, Microsoft."
[cue Rabid Richard]
A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits
per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core
Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
ROFL!!! These kids. Sigh.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
...as if its
ability to process data has somehow diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. 
2:52 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote:
On 2012-09-26, at 2:24 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up pages?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static
pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount
system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM... On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
"Thanks, Microsoft."
[cue Rabid Richard] ...as if its ability to process data has somehow
diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. 
9:17 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote:
My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...at someone else's (great) expense.
A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves
almost exclusively static
pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount
system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up pages? 
27 Sep
27 Sep
5:41 a.m.
On Sep 27, 2012, at 0:17, Tothwolf <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote:
Probably not, at least not if they're smart. There's
no way that system could keep up with even a very
modest consumer GPU for bitcoin mining, at
which point any reason for a big CPU and gobs of
RAM goes out the window.
- Dave
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote:
My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...at someone else's (great) expense.
A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves
almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a
rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up pages?
9:57 a.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Riley wrote:
On Sep 27, 2012, at 0:17, Tothwolf <tothwolf at
concentric.net> wrote:
Password cracking then?
http://arstechnica.com/security/2012/08/passwords-under-assault/
There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large for
such a small task without some other background motive. A Socket 7 based
machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of ram can even handle
serving out 1k hits a day of static content...while running modern
software (BSD or Linux and Apache). I'm not sure I'd try it today with a
486 based system due to latency and the bandwidth limitations of the ISA
bus (10Mb network cards), but any Pentium (or AMD) based computer dating
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote:
Probably not, at least not if they're smart. There's no way that system
could keep up with even a very modest consumer GPU for bitcoin mining,
at which point any reason for a big CPU and gobs of RAM goes out the
window. On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote:
My money would be on bitcoin "mining"...at someone else's (great)
expense. A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves
almost exclusively static
pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount
system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
Do they plan on using that system for things other than serving up
pages? from about mid '95 on could easily handle the
described task.
The only CPU I wouldn't give the task to would be an early Intel Pentium
4, which IMO is one of the worst things that ever came out of Intel. The
early P4 CPU is nothing more than an overgrown space heater. Northwood was
a major improvement, and Prescott might as well have not even been the
same processor, but had Intel not halted all development on the Pentium 3
(and made support chipsets unavailable) Willamette would have surely
flopped and the P4 would have never caught on in the market.
11:35 a.m.
There is just no way someone is going to spec a
machine that large for such
a small task without some other background motive.
Why assume that the motive is somehow evil? Maybe the guy wants to run
a Minecraft server off it (they need gobs of CPU and RAM).
Or, dare I say...business growth?
--
Will
12:54 p.m.
> Serves
almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day.
> They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he
> spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
Do they plan on using that system for [other things]?
My money would be on bitcoin
"mining"...[...] A Socket 7 based machine such as a 200MHz Pentium
P54CS with 128MB of
ram can even handle serving out 1k hits a day of static
content...while running modern software (BSD or Linux and Apache).
I'm not sure I'd try it today with a 486 based system due to latency
and the bandwidth limitations of the ISA bus (10Mb network cards),
Huh? 1K hits a day is less than one a minute. Unless the files it's
serving are truly ginormous, network bandwidth is not an issue; I'd
expect a 486-based system to be just fine. (Of course, that "less than
one a minute" is average; if traffic isn't approximately flat, it could
actually need to serve four or five pages a minute during peak periods.
I still have trouble seeing a 486 as insufficient.) The major reason
_I_ see for using something beefier is ease of obtaining it. Octo-core
Xeons with multiple gigs of RAM are trivial to order. 486s aren't,
especially if you want a 1U or 2U rackmount machine 'cause that's what
fits in your co-lo space.
Latency, mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that the whole page be
served with sub-second delay or some such silliness.
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3:16 p.m.
Eh while overkill it would make a nice vm host. Otherwise I suppose it could be either not
recommended but doing all the server tasks for their infrastructure (db server, web
server, ftp, dhcp. Dns. Email, whatever ad/ldap). But still overkill. Vm wise they could
host many customers that way.
Now if they *really* want to get the darwin award they could get that, then do a raid 0
:-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 15:54:12
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
Probably not, at least not if they're smart.
There's no way that
system could keep up with even a very modest consumer GPU for
bitcoin mining, [...] There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that
large
for such a small task without some other background motive.
I disagree. There are a whole lot of sysadmins who do not really
understand such things; I'm sure lots of them would go "oh, I want a
webserver, let's look up some recommended specs for webservers" and
find a spec list by someone who's doing all sorts of server-side
computation (which, to be fair, is what a lot of people think of "a
webserver" as doing). Or they ask a friend who doesn't know the load
in question and answers hurriedly. Or, with slightly more competence,
they find a wide spectrum of answers and figure they don't know what's
actually needed and err on the side of extra power.
> Serves
almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day.
> They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he
> spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
Do they plan on using that system for [other things]?
My money would be on bitcoin
"mining"...[...] A Socket 7 based machine such as a 200MHz Pentium
P54CS with 128MB of
ram can even handle serving out 1k hits a day of static
content...while running modern software (BSD or Linux and Apache).
I'm not sure I'd try it today with a 486 based system due to latency
and the bandwidth limitations of the ISA bus (10Mb network cards),
Huh? 1K hits a day is less than one a minute. Unless the files it's
serving are truly ginormous, network bandwidth is not an issue; I'd
expect a 486-based system to be just fine. (Of course, that "less than
one a minute" is average; if traffic isn't approximately flat, it could
actually need to serve four or five pages a minute during peak periods.
I still have trouble seeing a 486 as insufficient.) The major reason
_I_ see for using something beefier is ease of obtaining it. Octo-core
Xeons with multiple gigs of RAM are trivial to order. 486s aren't,
especially if you want a 1U or 2U rackmount machine 'cause that's what
fits in your co-lo space.
Latency, mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that the whole page be
served with sub-second delay or some such silliness.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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4:10 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote:
It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've seen
someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they could use it
for their own purposes. Machines that large are not exactly commodity
items, even today.
Your average static image file tends to be over 100KB now, which is going
to be difficult for an i486 based machine to keep up with. A 150MHz P5
with a basic 10/100 PCI NIC would probably handle it, but I wouldn't give
the task to anything slower, and as cheap as a 200MHz P54CS is, there
wouldn't be any point in using the slower processor. I ran a number of
486-based web servers into the late '90s, and they were just barely able
to keep up with average sized files back then.
Finding a 1U sized i486 machine with an ISA butterfly backplane chassis
would actually be no problem at all. These are still very common in
embedded applications where existing equipment relies on the ISA bus.
>>>> Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per day. They
>>>> are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec?
>>>> Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
There is just no way someone is going to spec a
machine that large for
such a small task without some other background motive.
I disagree. There are a whole lot of sysadmins who do not really
understand such things; I'm sure lots of them would go "oh, I want a
webserver, let's look up some recommended specs for webservers" and find
a spec list by someone who's doing all sorts of server-side computation
(which, to be fair, is what a lot of people think of "a webserver" as
doing). Or they ask a friend who doesn't know the load in question and
answers hurriedly. Or, with slightly more competence, they find a wide
spectrum of answers and figure they don't know what's actually needed
and err on the side of extra power. A Socket 7
based machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of
ram can even handle serving out 1k hits a day of static content...while
running modern software (BSD or Linux and Apache). I'm not sure I'd try
it today with a 486 based system due to latency and the bandwidth
limitations of the ISA bus (10Mb network cards),
Huh? 1K hits a day is less than one a minute. Unless the files it's
serving are truly ginormous, network bandwidth is not an issue; I'd
expect a 486-based system to be just fine. (Of course, that "less than
one a minute" is average; if traffic isn't approximately flat, it could
actually need to serve four or five pages a minute during peak periods.
I still have trouble seeing a 486 as insufficient.) The major reason
_I_ see for using something beefier is ease of obtaining it. Octo-core
Xeons with multiple gigs of RAM are trivial to order. 486s aren't,
especially if you want a 1U or 2U rackmount machine 'cause that's what
fits in your co-lo space. Latency, mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that
the whole page be
served with sub-second delay or some such silliness.
Even a one second delay while serving static content -is- a problem. Each
such delay adds to the total page load time, and it adds up in a hurry.
A modern Linux or BSD distribution typically expects gobs of memory (1GB+)
but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap is available
(and you aren't running BIND). As much as I actually like the i486 arch
(power efficiency, among other things), a 486 based system will simply not
have enough physical memory available (generally no more than 32MB) and it
would craw to a halt with a modern OS while trying to swap stuff out to
disc while serving up pages via Apache.
Even if you could physically stuff 64MB of memory into a i486 based
system, that extra memory isn't going to be cached (no on-die cache with a
486) so it is going to be incredibly slow. Even most Socket 5 and Socket 7
based machines could only support 128MB (chipset limitations), even if the
processor itself could handle more.
I still work with embedded systems that use these very CPUs, so I'm
acutely aware of their limitations. In fact, those MicroVAX diagnostic
tape images I linked to were being served by a P200 with 128MB of ram (its
chipset can handle 512MB if I get around to hunting down a compatible
COAST module for the system).
7:45 p.m.
Your average static image file tends to be over 100KB
now, which is going
to be difficult for an i486 based machine to keep up with. A 150MHz P5
with a basic 10/100 PCI NIC would probably handle it, but I wouldn't give
the task to anything slower, and as cheap as a 200MHz P54CS is, there
wouldn't be any point in using the slower processor. I ran a number of
486-based web servers into the late '90s, and they were just barely able
to keep up with average sized files back then.
Up until earlier this year my main webserver was an Apple Network Server with
a 200MHz 604e. Now, this is certainly got more oomph than the 486, and the
ANS did very well in AIX, but it did the job since 1998.
Now that I have the POWER6, it doesn't really make much sense to keep the
ANS in daily operation, and it was getting flaky to boot. It'll be much
happier as a museum piece running CDE for demonstration purposes.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- If I am not for myself, who will be for me? -- Pirkei Avot -----------------
28 Sep
28 Sep
12:19 a.m.
>>>
Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
There is just no way someone is going to
spec a machine that large
for such a small task without some other background motive. A modern Linux or BSD distribution typically expects
gobs of memory
(1GB+) but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap
is available [...]. [...] a 486 based system will simply not have
enough physical memory available (generally no more than 32MB) and it
would craw to a halt with a modern OS while trying to swap stuff out
to disc while serving up pages via Apache.
Perhaps, if you insist on running apache. Unless you actually need
some of its more complex features, using apache for static content is a
bit like using a Saturn V to launch a paper airplane.
I found 32M plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed one machine to
4.0.1 and tried to self-host; the compiler was so bloated it thrashed
itself to death. At 64M there was no problem. (That's approximately
the point at which I stopped trying to "upgrade" my machines, not
entirely coincidentally.)
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12:30 a.m.
On 09/28/2012 03:19 AM, Mouse wrote:
It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've seen
someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they could
use it for their own purposes.
I don't doubt that for a moment.
But I do doubt that there is "just no way" that such a spec-out could
happen any other way.
You are obsessing about corner cases and picking apart assertions.
Not giving you shit, just pointing it out.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
>>>> Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large
for such a small task without some other background motive.
I disagree. [...]
2:09 a.m.
> I don't doubt that for a moment.
> But I do doubt that there is "just no
way" that such a spec-out
> could happen any other way.
You are obsessing about corner cases and picking apart
assertions.
I thought you'd plonked me? (Not that it's a big deal either way, just
a bit surprised.)
Valid point. I don't know whether it's the precisionist mindset going
"that's not the same thing!" or the debugger mindset going "don't
assume X and Y are the same without realizing when they're not!" or
even if there's really any difference between the two, but it _is_ true
that this isn't a situation where that level of pickiness is needed,
nor even, really, called for.
Not giving you shit, just pointing it out.
Is there a difference?
Half :), but only half - I'm not sure what the difference between the
two is, though you clearly feel/think there is one. There's probably
just something I'm missing....
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11:36 a.m.
On 09/28/2012 05:09 AM, Mouse wrote:
Nah, that was a "short-timeout plonk". I've known you for far too
long to plonk you permanently.
The difference is intention, that's all.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
> I
don't doubt that for a moment.
> But I do doubt that there is "just no
way" that such a spec-out
> could happen any other way.
You are obsessing about corner cases and picking
apart assertions.
I thought you'd plonked me? (Not that it's a big deal either way, just
a bit surprised.) Valid point. I don't know whether it's the
precisionist mindset going
"that's not the same thing!" or the debugger mindset going "don't
assume X and Y are the same without realizing when they're not!" or
even if there's really any difference between the two, but it _is_ true
that this isn't a situation where that level of pickiness is needed,
nor even, really, called for.
I understand both mindsets, and I agree. The thing is, our society is
losing information at an amazing and terrifying rate, and one of the
pieces of information that appears (due to this conversation) on the
verge of being "lost" is what a Nixie tube actually is. It's not really
open to interpretation or debate; the owner of the name (Burroughs) said
so, and has done so over many decades.
Yes, one could pop the nipple and re-fill with a different gas...but
while it would be cool to do, is it really worth doing if the only goal
is to prove someone wrong on a mailing list? And if it is, then have
you really achieved that? I say possibly not, because then you'd have a
*modified* Nixie tube.
Not giving you
shit, just pointing it out.
Is there a difference?
12:17 p.m.
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
I understand both mindsets, and I agree. The thing
is, our society is
losing information at an amazing and terrifying rate, and one of the
pieces of information that appears (due to this conversation) on the
verge of being "lost" is what a Nixie tube actually is. It's not really
open to interpretation or debate; the owner of the name (Burroughs) said
so, and has done so over many decades.
Yes, one could pop the nipple and re-fill with a different gas...but
while it would be cool to do, is it really worth doing if the only goal
is to prove someone wrong on a mailing list? And if it is, then have
you really achieved that? I say possibly not, because then you'd have a
*modified* Nixie tube.
Has anyone come up with a method of rebuilding failed Nixie tubes yet?
That would interest me a lot more than somehow changing the display color.
Given that people have been able to fabricate entire tubes in their own
shop/lab now, it seems like it would only be a matter of time before
someone figures out how to do the same with Nixie tubes.
1:43 p.m.
On 09/28/2012 03:17 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Has anyone come up with a method of rebuilding failed
Nixie tubes yet?
That would interest me a lot more than somehow changing the display
color. Given that people have been able to fabricate entire tubes in
their own shop/lab now, it seems like it would only be a matter of time
before someone figures out how to do the same with Nixie tubes.
It has been done. A friend of mine on the lasers list built one:
http://www.imajeenyus.com/vacuum/20110310_text_discharge_tube/index.shtml
There have been more complex examples than this, and while this isn't
strictly a Nixie tube, it's moving in that direction. I know I've seen
complete homebrew Nixie tubes online in the past few years.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
30 Sep
30 Sep
11:39 p.m.
New subject: "Nixie"s [was Re: strange remark about your collection?]
The thing is, our society is losing information at an
amazing and
terrifying rate, and one of the pieces of information that appears
(due to this conversation) on the verge of being "lost" is what a
Nixie tube actually is. It's not really open to interpretation or
debate; the owner of the name (Burroughs) said so, and has done so
over many decades.
Burroughs - or whoever owns the rights these days - does not get to
dictate how people use language, except to a very limited extent
language as used in trade (trademark law has no applicability, in any
jurisdiction as far as I know, to informal conversations such as this
and other non-trade contexts). Even the Wikipedia page Nixie_tube
(which, while no more authoritative than any Wikipedia page for facts,
is, I think, a valid example of how language actually gets used)
illustrates this. Its definition, as of this writing, does not include
any mention of the term being a trademark, and the page uses the term
in ways blatantly incompatible with the trademark definition: "Some
Russian Nixies, e.g. the IN-14"..."In the former Soviet Union, Nixies
were still being manufactured in volume in the 1980s, so Russian and
Eastern European Nixies are still available". It mentions that
"Burroughs...owned the name Nixie as a trademark" (not `owns'), and
even goes so far as to remark "the phrase Nixie tube quickly entered
the vernacular as a generic name" and include a see-also link to the
Genericized_trademark page, so clearly _someone_ (besides me) thinks
it's been substantially genericized already.
Indeed, that we're even _having_ this conversation seems to me to
support that position.
I also am inclined to wonder what jurisdictions Burroughs trademarked
`Nixie' in; it strikes me as quite possible that in many listmembers'
jurisdictions it has never been a trademark. (I haven't bothered
looking up whether mine is one of them because I don't consider it
relevant to my main point.)
Perhaps the detail that the term was trademarked in some jurisdictions
is in danger of being lost to all but historians. I'm not convinced
that's a bad thing; this has happened to many trademarks (the
Genericized_trademark Wikipedia page mentioned above has examples) and
I don't see the world as being any the worse for it. Nor do I see
anyone as being worse off if "Nixie" goes generic, probably even
including whoever owns its trademark rights now (presumably Unisys),
especially since they do not appear to care any longer about either the
name or the product.
Yes, one could pop the nipple and re-fill with a
different gas...but
while it would be cool to do, is it really worth doing if the only
goal is to prove someone wrong on a mailing list?
Probably not. But I would not suggest doing it with that goal. I
rather was trying to say that I suspect it has already been done for
some other reason (possibly even just "because I can" - as you remark,
it'd be cool to do in its own right), though almost certainly not very
often.
Jeri Ellsworth, maybe? :)
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
28 Sep
28 Sep
10:18 a.m.
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote:
It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've seen
someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they could use
it for their own purposes.
I don't doubt that for a moment.
But I do doubt that there is "just no way" that such a spec-out could
happen any other way.
For a lesser machine, quite possibly, but an 8-core Xeon and _96GB_ of
ram? No way. Actually, for me, the 96GB of ram is the thing that really
puts it over the top.
With Apache the gold standard when it comes to public facing web servers,
and with constantly changing links and the need for reducing support
emails, who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along with stuff such
as mod_rewrite these days?
>>>> Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large
for such a small task without some other background motive.
I disagree. [...]
A modern Linux
or BSD distribution typically expects gobs of memory
(1GB+) but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap is
available [...]. [...] a 486 based system will simply not have enough
physical memory available (generally no more than 32MB) and it would
craw to a halt with a modern OS while trying to swap stuff out to disc
while serving up pages via Apache.
Perhaps, if you insist on running apache. Unless you actually need some
of its more complex features, using apache for static content is a bit
like using a Saturn V to launch a paper airplane. I found 32M plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed
one machine to 4.0.1
and tried to self-host; the compiler was so bloated it thrashed itself
to death. At 64M there was no problem. (That's approximately the point
at which I stopped trying to "upgrade" my machines, not entirely
coincidentally.)
Which i486 boards are you aware of that support 64MB of cachable ram?
Pretty much any Intel Pentium or AMD K5 can easily support 64MB or 128MB
of ram but just finding a Socket 3 based system with support for 64MB of
cachable ram would be a major challenge.
I suppose if you have time to hand-build and tune the OS and stock
services for each machine you admin you could make it "work" with 32MB of
ram, but outside of embedded applications, 32MB just doesn't cut it today.
Even then, this still wouldn't solve the latency problems though. Again,
as much as I like the i486, it just isn't going to be able to keep up as a
modern webserver.
30 Sep
30 Sep
11:43 p.m.
[A] 486 based system will simply not have enough
physical memory
available [...] while serving up pages via Apache.
Perhaps, if you insist on
running apache. [...] I found 32M
plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed one machine to
4.0.1 [...]. At 64M there was no problem.
Which i486 boards are you aware of that
support 64MB of cachable ram?
11:49 p.m.
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote:
With Apache the gold standard when it comes to public facing
web
servers, and with constantly changing links and the need for reducing
support emails, who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along
with stuff such as mod_rewrite these days?
Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. I
wouldn't go _near_ apache; it includes far too much stuff I have no
need for and therefore do not want in my exposed attack surface.
How does bozohttpd, in your opinion, compare with thttpd?
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
[A] 486 based
system will simply not have enough physical memory
available [...] while serving up pages via Apache.
Perhaps, if you insist on
running apache. [...]
1 Oct
1 Oct
12:46 a.m.
New subject: Non-Apache webservers [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
[...], who in their right mind /doesn't/ use
Apache along with
stuff such as mod_rewrite these days?
Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind,
then - I use bozohttpd.
6:24 a.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
One thing I notice immediately is that thttpd has
drunk the ./configure
koolaid, which loses it substantial points with me (see my blah post
http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/2009-11-20-1.html for more
on my opinions on the subject) and certainly makes it significantly
more of a pain for me to use.
On the other hand, Perl has a shining example of a configure system that
actually works. Well, at least it did; current versions may be equally
infected (I don't like some of the changes in 5.14 so I mostly use 5.8 and
5.12).
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- The world is not enough. ---------------------------------------------------
11:28 p.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012 06:24:36 -0700 (PDT)
Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
On the other hand, Perl has a shining example of a
configure system that
actually works.
\begin{OT-rant}
Hahahaha. Ever tried to cross compile Perl? A teammate tried for two
weeks and gave up in big frustration.
\end{OT-rant}
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
2 Oct
2 Oct
6:21 a.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On the other
hand, Perl has a shining example of a configure system that
actually works.
\begin{OT-rant}
Hahahaha. Ever tried to cross compile Perl? A teammate tried for two
weeks and gave up in big frustration.
\end{OT-rant}
11:03 a.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 06:21:32 -0700 (PDT)
Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
Why would you expect a configure for that system to
cross-compile?
Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB
RAM desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our
800 MHz, 256 MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target
to be a compile host? (I am talking about $WORK here.)
I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of
stuff pretty well, if the autoconf scripts are well written...
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
12:58 p.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
Why would you
expect a configure for that system to cross-compile?
Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB
RAM desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our
800 MHz, 256 MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target
to be a compile host? (I am talking about $WORK here.)
I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of
stuff pretty well, if the autoconf scripts are well written...
2:05 p.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012 12:58:34 -0700 (PDT)
Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com> wrote:
[cross compiling]
But I'd argue that's exactly what a configure
script is *not* for. It's
supposed to look at the system you're compiling for and adapt itself
accordingly.
Exactely. The configure system has to investigate the build
environemet, the tools and the target system and adapt everything to
this. "Native" compiling is only a very special case of this process,
where cross compiling is the general case.
The problem with Perl is, that its configuration system makes cross
compiling simply impossible. There isn't even a choice to feed the
build options manually into the system.
I have to manually feed GNU autoconf so much stuff
that it misdetects
that there might as well not be a ./configure at all.
That is so true. Every time I
touch autoconf, I have to sledgehammer on
it to make it work... :-(((
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
3 Oct
3 Oct
6:57 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA.
I've done some rapid prototyping as a proof-of-concept just
to judge the quality of the documentation and to get a rough
idea about the size of the task.
I've got an ALU, microsequencer, Control ROM microcode, Dispatch
ROM microcode, dispatch logic, skip logic, AC register, XR register,
IR register, and the bus multiplexers all roughed in. It works
well enough to execute the first half-dozen microinstructions
correctly - maybe more.
My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to run the
microcode unchanged. When that is working well enough, we
can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only
implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have
plenty of unused address space to add microcode support for
the on-board peripherals.
If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog
and/or FPGA design, goofing around, or participating in any
way, please let me know off-list.
Rob.
doyle at cox dot net
4 Oct
4 Oct
9:49 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
Rob,
I have no experience in Verilog or FPGAs, I have little time, but I would
love to learn more about this field as I have some projects of my own I
might wish to do in the future, so would love to get involved if I can
contribute in some way. Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the
later versions of TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions
particularly as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL.
Regards
Rob
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Doyle
Sent: 04 October 2012 02:57
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA.
I've done some rapid prototyping as a proof-of-concept just to judge the
quality of the documentation and to get a rough idea about the size of the
task.
I've got an ALU, microsequencer, Control ROM microcode, Dispatch ROM
microcode, dispatch logic, skip logic, AC register, XR register,
IR register, and the bus multiplexers all roughed in. It works
well enough to execute the first half-dozen microinstructions correctly -
maybe more.
My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to run the microcode
unchanged. When that is working well enough, we
can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only
implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have plenty of unused
address space to add microcode support for the on-board peripherals.
If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog and/or FPGA
design, goofing around, or participating in any way, please let me know
off-
list.
Rob.
doyle at cox dot net
10:10 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
With a KS10 you're limited on the version of TOPS-20 that you can
run, I believe the max version is around V4.01. It can run TOPS-10
V7.04, and ITS. IIRC, only ITS supported networking on the KS10.
With the KL10B you can run through TOPS-20 V7, and have DECnet and
TCP/IP support.
Zane
At 5:49 PM +0100 10/4/12, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Rob,
I have no experience in Verilog or FPGAs, I have little time, but I would
love to learn more about this field as I have some projects of my own I
might wish to do in the future, so would love to get involved if I can
contribute in some way. Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the
later versions of TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions
particularly as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL.
Regards
Rob
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Doyle
Sent: 04 October 2012 02:57
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an FPGA.
I've done some rapid prototyping as a proof-of-concept just to judge the
quality of the documentation and to get a rough idea about the size of the
task.
I've got an ALU, microsequencer, Control ROM microcode, Dispatch ROM
microcode, dispatch logic, skip logic, AC register, XR register,
IR register, and the bus multiplexers all roughed in. It works
well enough to execute the first half-dozen microinstructions correctly -
maybe more.
My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to run the microcode
unchanged. When that is working well enough, we
can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only
implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have plenty of unused
address space to add microcode support for the on-board peripherals.
If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning Verilog and/or FPGA
design, goofing around, or participating in any way, please let me know
off-
> list.
>
> Rob.
> doyle at cox dot net 
11:58 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
From: Zane H. Healy
Sent: Thursday, October 04, 2012 10:10 AM
At 5:49 PM +0100 10/4/12, Rob Jarratt wrote:
>> From: Rob Doyle
>> Sent: 04 October 2012 02:57
>> I've starting to create a DEC KS10
(PDP-10) in an FPGA.
> Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the
later versions of
> TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions particularly
> as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL.
With a KS10 you're limited on the version of
TOPS-20 that you can
run, I believe the max version is around V4.01. It can run TOPS-10
V7.04, and ITS. IIRC, only ITS supported networking on the KS10.
Yes, the KS is limited to TOPS-20 v4.1 (no double-digit version nos. for
TOPS-20), although my late friend once got 5.4 (with TCP/IP) running on
one. That work was lost more than 20 years ago.
ITS supports TCP/IP, but only over Chaosnet, as far as I can tell.
With the KL10B you can run through TOPS-20 V7, and
have DECnet and
TCP/IP support.
No TCP/IP on standard Tops-10, although I am informed by a reliable
source that it was done for v7.02, where it ran over ANF-10.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
12:36 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
At 6:58 PM +0000 10/4/12, Rich Alderson wrote:
I'm glad you noted that, as that was what I meant, and I should have
been clearer.
TCP/IP on TOP-10 would be seriously cool, though I think I'd rather
see it on RSTS/E.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
Yes, the KS is limited to TOPS-20 v4.1 (no double-digit
version nos. for
TOPS-20), although my late friend once got 5.4 (with TCP/IP) running on
one. That work was lost more than 20 years ago.
Thanks for the clarification, I really couldn't remember if I was
right on the v4.1.
ITS supports TCP/IP, but only over Chaosnet, as far as
I can tell.
Good point!
With the KL10B
you can run through TOPS-20 V7, and have DECnet and
TCP/IP support.
No TCP/IP on standard Tops-10, although I am informed by a reliable
source that it was done for v7.02, where it ran over ANF-10.
8:54 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 10/4/2012 9:49 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Rob,
I have no experience in Verilog or FPGAs, I have little time, but I would
love to learn more about this field as I have some projects of my own I
might wish to do in the future, so would love to get involved if I can
contribute in some way. Just wondering why not the KL though? I think the
later versions of TOPS-20 run this and I would like to run those versions
particularly as I *think* DECnet might only run on the KL.
Regards
I looked at the KL, the KS10, and the Foonly docs before deciding. I
chose the KS10 simply because I think I can implement it in an FPGA.
I used a KA10 so my experience with TOPS-20, DECnet, and paging is nil.
Having said that; there is nothing wrong with adding KL features
to the KS. Half of the microcode address space is unused on a KS
so we can easily double the amount of microcode, if necessary. We
can easily add hardware, too.
For the experts out there:
What exactly are the architectural differences between a KS and KL?
Why does TOPS-20 and DECnet only run on a KL? What would need to be
added to a KS to support DECnet, etc? I guess it never occurred to
me that the applications and OS supported by a KS and KL would be
different...
Rob.
9:27 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
Rob Doyle wrote:
What exactly are the architectural differences between
a KS and KL?
The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model
B".[*]
The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW user
address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The Model B
adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to the
logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of them,
for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address space to 8
Mwords.
Multiple section support involves changes to the way paging works,
introducing an additional level of tables. It also adds complications
to indirect words, byte pointers, and the PXCT instruction, among other
things.
The KS10 does not support multiple sections. Its data paths were not
designed for it, so there is no efficient way to add multiple section
support merely by adding microcode. From a non-system programmer's
perspective, the KS10 is similar to a KL10 Model A.
The later versions of TOPS-20 simply got too big to fit well on a
single-section machine.
Eric
[*] Note that the "Model A" and "Model B" terminology does not
directly
correlate with a letter suffix on a KL10 ordering code, like KL10-A. In
fact, the KL10-A, KL10-B, KL10-BC, and KL10-C were all equipped with the
"Model A" APR ("Arithmetic PRocessor, which anyone else calls CPU),
while the KL10-D, KL10-E, and KL10-R were equipped with the "Model B"
APR. It gets even more complicated when field upgrades are considered.
In hardware terms, the "Model A" has a KL10-PA APR. The "Model B" as
a
KL10-PV or (later) KL10-PW APR. In addition to the multisection
support, the KL10-PV also runs at a higher clock frequency than the
KL10-PA. The KL10-PW (standard in 1095 and 2065 systems, or available
as an upgrade from the KL10-PV) has a larger cache and larger pager TLB,
so it increases the performance slightly more, but doesn't change the
programmer's model significantly.
10:34 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
William Donzelli wrote:
Could it fit into the ADP KS-10s? They were RPQ'd
to have twice as
much RAM as a stock machine (and a shit brown paint scheme, too). -- Will
They still didn't support sections, so the per-process memory was still
limited to 256kW (one moby).
Similarly, the KL10 Model A supported up to 4MW of physical memory, but
per-process was limited to one moby.
DEC never shipped any multisection PDP-10 processors other than the KL10
Model B. Had it not been cancelled, Jupiter would have had multisection
support. I'm not sure about Dophin and Minnow.
5 Oct
5 Oct
12:48 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
I think I noticed some differences to some of the Exec Mode
instructions. I assume that those will need to be reconciled, also.
With an FPGA, adding additional data paths later probably won't be a
problem. I'm guessing that other things like memory and IO is going
drive the FPGA size - not the routing resources. No matter how
they are implemented, the additional page tables will require FPGA
memory, so I should probably plan on them.*
*I spent some time earlier reviewing the "Minnow" design which also
supported 32 sections. It is a pretty minimalistic hardware approach
and relies heavily on microcode.
I also have Mike Euler's paper on Extended Addressing which seems to
describe these issues in great detail.
Thanks
Rob.
On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Rob Doyle wrote:
What exactly are the architectural differences
between a KS and KL?
The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model
B".[*]
The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW user
address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The Model B
adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to the
logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of them,
for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address space to 8
Mwords.
Multiple section support involves changes to the way paging works,
introducing an additional level of tables. It also adds complications
to indirect words, byte pointers, and the PXCT instruction, among other
things.
The KS10 does not support multiple sections. Its data paths were not
designed for it, so there is no efficient way to add multiple section
support merely by adding microcode. From a non-system programmer's
perspective, the KS10 is similar to a KL10 Model A.
The later versions of TOPS-20 simply got too big to fit well on a
single-section machine.
Eric
[*] Note that the "Model A" and "Model B" terminology does not
directly
correlate with a letter suffix on a KL10 ordering code, like KL10-A. In
fact, the KL10-A, KL10-B, KL10-BC, and KL10-C were all equipped with the
"Model A" APR ("Arithmetic PRocessor, which anyone else calls CPU),
while the KL10-D, KL10-E, and KL10-R were equipped with the "Model B"
APR. It gets even more complicated when field upgrades are considered.
In hardware terms, the "Model A" has a KL10-PA APR. The "Model B" as
a
KL10-PV or (later) KL10-PW APR. In addition to the multisection
support, the KL10-PV also runs at a higher clock frequency than the
KL10-PA. The KL10-PW (standard in 1095 and 2065 systems, or available
as an upgrade from the KL10-PV) has a larger cache and larger pager TLB,
so it increases the performance slightly more, but doesn't change the
programmer's model significantly.
10:42 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
From: Rob Doyle
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 12:48 AM
I think I noticed some differences to some of the Exec
Mode
instructions. I assume that those will need to be reconciled, also.
The I/O instructions, specifically, differ madly.
The KL-10 uses the I/O instruction model which was created for the
PDP-6, although it supports far fewer device types than the 166, KA,
or KI: <7><7 bit device code><3 bit op code><rest of
instruction>
The KS-10 uses a much simpler model, with different 9-bit opcodes (all
beginning with <7>) affecting different states of the machine. Because
the KS has a Unibus (yeah, PDP-11), the memory-model I/O is part of the
different instruction set.
With an FPGA, adding additional data paths later
probably won't be a
problem. I'm guessing that other things like memory and IO is going
drive the FPGA size - not the routing resources. No matter how they
are implemented, the additional page tables will require FPGA memory,
so I should probably plan on them.
Are you planning to put all of memory into the FPGA? Because the PDP-10
operating systems manipulate the page tables, so they need to be in main
memory.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
5:21 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as
"Model A" and "Model B".[*]
The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW user
address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The Model B
adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to the
logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of them,
for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address space to 8
Mwords.
... keeping this on topic.
I can get 2MW x 36 of memory in a single chip.
I know that there is no such thing as typical but...
How much memory did KL10s have? What was a large machine? Mid? Small?
Rob.
6 Oct
6 Oct
4:41 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
From: Rob Doyle
Sent: Friday, October 05, 2012 5:22 PM
On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
> The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as
"Model A" and "Model B".[*]
> The difference is that the Model A supports the
traditional 256KW
> user address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The
> Model B adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to
> the logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of
> them, for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address
> space to 8 Mwords.
... keeping this on topic.
I can get 2MW x 36 of memory in a single chip.
I know that there is no such thing as typical but...
How much memory did KL10s have? What was a large
machine? Mid?
Small?
The KL-10 (and the predecessor KI-10) could address up to 4MW physical.
Until semiconductor memory became common, of course, that was mostly a
theoretical limit; by 1984 it was not uncommon to find a KL with four
internal memory bays of 768KW each, for a total of 3MW. With the
upgrade to take a 2060 to a 2065, that was reduced in count to two bays
of 2MW each, for the 4MW limit. Of course by that time, many people
were beginning to migrate away from the PDP-10 architecture, but as late
as June 1995 there were at least 60 4MW systems left in the world.
(They were all gone by June 1996.)
A small KL-10 system would have 1-2 section's worth of real memory,
256-512KW. A medium sized system would have had 1.5-2MW.
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
11 Nov
11 Nov
4:42 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 10/4/2012 9:27 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Rob Doyle wrote:
I'm still trying to understand the KS10 paging.
The KS10 hardware supports a 20-bit VMA but no sections - which
/should/ allow 1 MW memory.
Apparently ADP had modifications to implement 1 MW of memory.
Was the 512 KW memory limitation just a implementation limitation:
8 slots with 64 KW per slot? Or more than that?
Did the ADP KS10s run unmodified versions of the OSs?
Thanks.
Rob.
The KS10 FPGA is running well enough to execute (and fail) the
DEC Instruction Set Diagnostics. Each day it runs some more
instructions before halting.
What exactly are the architectural differences
between a KS and
KL?
The KL10 came in two versions, referred to as "Model A" and "Model
B".[*]
The difference is that the Model A supports the traditional 256KW
user address space, as was found on the earlier KI10 and KS10. The
Model B adds the concept of "sections", which adds another 12 bits to
the logical address, although the KL10 Model B only implements 5 of
them, for a maximum of 32 sections. This expands the user address
space to 8 Mwords.
Multiple section support involves changes to the way paging works,
introducing an additional level of tables. It also adds
complications to indirect words, byte pointers, and the PXCT
instruction, among other things.
The KS10 does not support multiple sections. Its data paths were
not designed for it, so there is no efficient way to add multiple
section support merely by adding microcode. From a non-system
programmer's perspective, the KS10 is similar to a KL10 Model A.
12 Nov
12 Nov
7:22 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 11/11/2012 07:42 PM, Rob Doyle wrote:
The KS10 FPGA is running well enough to execute (and
fail) the
DEC Instruction Set Diagnostics. Each day it runs some more
instructions before halting.
Nice work! I'm following this project with interest. Please keep up
the good work.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4 Oct
4 Oct
10:18 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On Oct 3, 2012, at 6:57 PM, Rob Doyle <radioengr at gmail.com> wrote:
I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an
FPGA.
[...]
If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning
Verilog
and/or FPGA design, goofing around, or participating in any
way, please let me know off-list.
David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie oscar mike) built a full working KA10
with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You might want to email him.
Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued
that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :(
-Seth
10:27 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 10/4/2012 11:18 AM, Seth Morabito wrote:
Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on
homepage.mac.com,
and Apple discontinued that service earlier this year. I know of no
mirror :(
Where have we heard that story from. Loss of small intesting sites
is real problem with the net.
-Seth
The best I can find is this.
http://hackaday.com/2011/07/29/putting-a-pdp-10-on-an-fpga/
Wayback machine might have it if you knew the URL.
Ben.
10:53 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 10/04/2012 01:18 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie
oscar mike) built a full working KA10 with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You
might want to email him.
Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued
that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :(
Three cheers for "free" (but still commercial) content hosting
services, whee!
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:10 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
At 1:53 PM -0400 10/4/12, Dave McGuire wrote:
I never viewed .Mac/MobileMe as "free" hosting, but then web hosting
was the main reason I had a family account. I used it to host the
Libraries website, and some other stuff. Thankfully by the time they
went away I was able to move the domains back to my personal server.
I rather valued the service, iCloud on the other hand is a steaming
pile of garbage!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
Unfortunately,
all the information was hosted on
homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued that
service earlier this
year. I know of no mirror :(
Three cheers for "free" (but still commercial) content hosting
services, whee! 
12 Nov
12 Nov
7:53 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
David Conroy (dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie
oscar mike) built a full working KA10 with ITS paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You
might want to email him.
Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued
that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :(
Archive Team backed up nearly all of those sites. You can look up by
username at
http://ia600403.us.archive.org/30/items/archiveteam-mobileme-index/mobileme…
.
Not sure how best to extract the WARCs though, as warctozip seems to
be not working for some reason.
--Dave
8:10 a.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 11/12/12 7:53 AM, David Ryskalczyk wrote:
David Conroy
(dgcx at mike alpha charlie dot charlie oscar mike) built a full working KA10 with ITS
paging, and called it the PDP-10/X. You might want to email him.
Unfortunately, all the information was hosted on homepage.mac.com, and Apple discontinued
that service earlier this year. I know of no mirror :(
from Oct 4th
David's work has moved to:
http://fpgaretrocomputing.org/
4 Oct
4 Oct
3:20 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2012 18:57:09 -0700
From: Rob Doyle <radioengr at gmail.com>
....
I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an
FPGA.
....
My goal is to implement the hardware close enough to
run the
microcode unchanged. When that is working well enough, we
can add TTY IO and a disk controller. Because the KS10 only
implemented half of it's microcode address space, we have
plenty of unused address space to add microcode support for
the on-board peripherals.
KLH10's KS simulation includes emulation of the ACC LH/DH IMP
interface, so Internet connectivity could be an option!
If anybody is interested in collaborating, learning
Verilog
and/or FPGA design, goofing around, or participating in any
way, please let me know off-list.
I wish I had the time/focus to spare!
phil
16 Dec
16 Dec
12:56 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
On 10/3/2012 6:57 PM, Rob Doyle wrote:
I've starting to create a DEC KS10 (PDP-10) in an
FPGA.
The KS10 FPGA is starting to come together. The KS10 CPU proper is
very close to complete. It passes all of the basic instruction
diagnostics and the diagnostic monitor boots and prints the prompt.
I'm starting to implement the Unibus-based IO.
Two Questions:
I've implemented the DZ11 8-port terminal mux. I can find the
diagnostic tape with the executable but not the source code for the
DSDZA DZ11 diagnostic. Any ideas?
I know absolutely nothing about Massbus or the disk systems that were
common on the KS10. I would like to choose one disk drive type that the
KS10 supported to implement/emulate. I'm not sure which one would be
the 'best'. I'd appreciate suggestions.
Rob Doyle
doyle (at) cox (dot) net
19 Dec
19 Dec
10:30 p.m.
New subject: DEC KS-10 FPGA
From: Rob Doyle
Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2012 12:56 PM
I know absolutely nothing about Massbus or the disk
systems that were
common on the KS10. I would like to choose one disk drive type that the
KS10 supported to implement/emulate. I'm not sure which one would be
the 'best'. I'd appreciate suggestions.
RP06. The other supported drive, the RM03, is too small for Real Work(TM).
RM05 and RP07 mean <bleep> around in the monitor code to try to get them
to work, and you probably won't unless you're a very good monitor programmer
with lots of PDP-10 assembler experience.
Rich
Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Vulcan, Inc.
505 5th Avenue S, Suite 900
Seattle, WA 98104
mailto:RichA at vulcan.com
mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org
http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/
2 Oct
2 Oct
4:52 p.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
But I'd argue that's exactly what a configure script is *not* for. It's
supposed to look at the system you're compiling for and adapt itself
accordingly.
Now, if you want something that you can force presets of another system
for, that makes good sense and you can get such a package for Perl. But
I think that functionality is separate from an automatic configuration
system, because it's not automatic (you're manually feeding it your
settings).
I have to manually feed GNU autoconf so much stuff that it misdetects
that there might as well not be a ./configure at all. But I've never had
that issue with Perl or other "proper" configuration systems.
If the autoconf script is properly written, --cache-file is the main thing
you need. Many scripts don't properly handle or use config.cache for all
platform specific tests, even if they should.
Why would you expect a configure for that system to
cross-compile?
Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB
RAM desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our 800
MHz, 256 MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target to be
a compile host? (I am talking about $WORK here.)
I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of
stuff pretty well, if the autoconf scripts are well written...
4:50 p.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
Why would you expect a configure for that system
to cross-compile?
Because I am building an embedded device and a 8-core 2.5 GHz, 16 GB RAM
desktop computer has considerably more horse power then our 800 MHz, 256
MB RAM target? Because it is a PITA to set up the target to be a compile
host? (I am talking about $WORK here.)
I can't stand GNU autoconf / automake. But it handels this kind of stuff
pretty well, if the autoconf scripts are well written...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the key, right here. Most software developers who are really good
at C do not have enough experience with autotools.
There are a number things I learned while working with autotools that are
key to making this stuff work /right/.
1. Everything will be processed through M4, so make sure you quote and
escape stuff properly. If you don't know M4 you probably shouldn't be
writing autoconf tests. Go write sendmail configuration files for awhile.
2. Never ever assume /bin/sh is GNU Bash. Unless you are using Linux based
system, it probably isn't, and even then /bin/sh might actually be some
form of Ash.
3. Many /bin/sh Bourne shells are broken, especially with quoting, use
explicit means for testing for such things as empty strings. Use 'if test
"x$foo" != x', NOT 'if test "$foo" != ""'. The
same goes for comparing
variable that might be empty, 'if test "x$foo" == "x$bar"',
NOT 'if test
"$foo" == "$bar"'. ...also use 'test', not [].
4. Test your code on all of your target platforms. Most developers never
bother to do this. "It works on Linux, it must be right..." It is a pain
in the ass, and is the very reason I've actively hunted for older UNIX
workstations.
8:08 p.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
So, a programmer has gotten good enough at C to want to make their code
portable. This was a lot of work. Now let's say they know how to write
portable sh scripts. That's even harder (more arcane) than learning how to
program C well, but let's argue that it has applications outside autotools
and let's assume that they put in this huge effort as well. Now you say
they need to learn M4, which is even more arcane than sh scripting, and is
not widely used anywhere but autotools and sendmail, where (sendmail) it
is the #1 thing driving people to adopt other MTAs with other
configuration systems (ones not relying on M4)? No. No no no. M4 in this
context is not a solution, it is a problem. It is the cure that is worse
than the disease.
You got good at autotools? Good for you. I think it's unreasonable to
require a majority of C programmers to do so. All we need is some header
files that tell us what libraries / features are on the target system, and
some make macros that tell us what tools are on the host system. There is
absolutely no reason that that should require learning 2 other programming
languages.
Alexey
if the
autoconf scripts are well written...
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
This is the key, right here. Most software developers who are really good at
C do not have enough experience with autotools.
There are a number things I learned while working with autotools that are key
to making this stuff work /right/.
1. Everything will be processed through M4, so make sure you quote and escape
stuff properly. If you don't know M4 you probably shouldn't be writing
autoconf tests. Go write sendmail configuration files for awhile.
2. Never ever assume /bin/sh is GNU Bash. Unless you are using Linux based
system, it probably isn't, and even then /bin/sh might actually be some form
of Ash.
3. Many /bin/sh Bourne shells are broken, especially with quoting, use
explicit means for testing for such things as empty strings. Use 'if test
"x$foo" != x', NOT 'if test "$foo" != ""'. The
same goes for comparing
variable that might be empty, 'if test "x$foo" == "x$bar"',
NOT 'if test
"$foo" == "$bar"'. ...also use 'test', not [].
3 Oct
3 Oct
12:32 a.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 03:08:51 +0000 (UTC)
Alexey Toptygin <alexeyt at freeshell.org> wrote:
M4 in this context is not a solution, it is a problem.
It is the
cure that is worse than the disease.
Seconded. Autoconf scripts fail so often,
because it is incredibly hard
and painfull to write them well. Most programmers don't have the time,
patience and motivation to dive into this mess. And you need to test
them on each and every platform. Unfortunately the average programmer
doesn't have this extensive test facilities.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
3:49 a.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012, Jochen Kunz wrote:
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012 Alexey Toptygin wrote:
Autoconf scripts aren't difficult to implement if you take the time to
read autoconf's documentation. Pretty much everything is documented, and
the docs aren't even half bad. Combine that with autobook, and I think
pretty much anyone could get the basics down pretty fast.
http://www.gnu.org/software/autoconf/manual/
http://sources.redhat.com/autobook/
M4 in this context is not a solution, it is a
problem. It is the cure
that is worse than the disease.
Seconded. Autoconf scripts fail so often, because it is incredibly hard
and painfull to write them well. Most programmers don't have the time,
patience and motivation to dive into this mess. And you need to test them on each and every platform.
Unfortunately the
average programmer doesn't have this extensive test facilities.
Which is why many developers share such resources.
3:36 a.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Wed, 3 Oct 2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Tothwolf wrote:
>> if the autoconf scripts are well written...
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> This is the key, right here. Most software developers who are really
> good at C do not have enough experience with autotools.
>
> There are a number things I learned while working with autotools that
> are key to making this stuff work /right/.
>
> 1. Everything will be processed through M4, so make sure you quote and
> escape stuff properly. If you don't know M4 you probably shouldn't be
> writing autoconf tests. Go write sendmail configuration files for
> awhile.
>
> 2. Never ever assume /bin/sh is GNU Bash. Unless you are using Linux
> based system, it probably isn't, and even then /bin/sh might actually
> be some form of Ash.
>
> 3. Many /bin/sh Bourne shells are broken, especially with quoting, use
> explicit means for testing for such things as empty strings. Use 'if
> test "x$foo" != x', NOT 'if test "$foo" !=
""'. The same goes for
> comparing variable that might be empty, 'if test "x$foo" ==
"x$bar"',
> NOT 'if test "$foo" == "$bar"'. ...also use
'test', not [].
4. Test your code on all of your target platforms. Most developers never
bother to do this. "It works on Linux, it must be right..." It is a pain
in the ass, and is the very reason I've actively hunted for older UNIX
workstations.
So, a programmer has gotten good enough at C to want
to make their code
portable. This was a lot of work. Now let's say they know how to write
portable sh scripts. That's even harder (more arcane) than learning how
to program C well, but let's argue that it has applications outside
autotools and let's assume that they put in this huge effort as well.
Now you say they need to learn M4, which is even more arcane than sh
scripting, and is not widely used anywhere but autotools and sendmail,
where (sendmail) it is the #1 thing driving people to adopt other MTAs
with other configuration systems (ones not relying on M4)? No. No no no.
M4 in this context is not a solution, it is a problem. It is the cure
that is worse than the disease.
Wow, talk about a paragraph full of fallacies.
So you don't like shell script and also dislike M4. Let me guess, you
don't believe in learning awk or sed either? Ah, I get it, you must be a
Perl coder.
Portable shell scripting isn't any more difficult than C. It is
/different/ than C, but once you learn /how/ to write portable shell
script, you never forget it. The same goes for M4. M4 itself isn't
difficult, however writing reusable, proper, autoconf macros is not a
simple task. Much like awk and sed, once you know how to use M4, you find
all sorts of uses for it.
As for sendmail, any "seasoned sysadmin" who can't build a sendmail config
file isn't a seasoned sysadmin. No, the reason people are switching to
other MTAs such as Exim is sendmail's root UID requirements and aging
codebase.
In most cases, autoconf, libtool, etc provide everything a basic build
system will need, however if you have sufficient need for a special case
test, you are probably (hopefully?) going to also spend the time to
properly implement the autoconf macro(s). If someone isn't willing to
spend the time on it to do it right, and/or if someone is too lazy to
learn autotools/autoconf to properly implement a build system using them,
then IMO they shouldn't attempt to use autoconf, etc, to begin with,
period.
I'd further argue that someone who is unable and/or *unwilling* to learn
something as basic as portable shell scripting and M4 probably isn't all
that great of C programmer to begin with. I'll even take that a step
further and state that anyone who would argue otherwise probably isn't a
veteran UNIX programmer, much less one who knows the ins and outs of
writing portable C code. [Anyone can take a C programming class and learn
some theory, but writing truly portable code is something that is learned
hands-on and not so much in the classroom.]
You got good at autotools? Good for you. I think
it's unreasonable to
require a majority of C programmers to do so. All we need is some header
files that tell us what libraries / features are on the target system,
and some make macros that tell us what tools are on the host system.
There is absolutely no reason that that should require learning 2 other
programming languages.
"All we need is some header files that tell us what libraries / features
are on the target system, and some make macros that tell us what tools are
on the host system."
Header files? Oh yeah, sure...that'll work. BSD? SysV? POSIX? C? Which C?
ANSI C? Pfft.
What do you think autoconf actually /does/? Why do you think autoconf (and
similar build tools) ever came to exist? Sure...let's just check header
files and test for a few tools...sure :)
Better still, hit the books and learn something.
http://cm.bell-labs.com/cm/cs/tpop/
http://www.amazon.com/Practice-Programming-Addison-Wesley-Professional-Comp…
http://sources.redhat.com/autobook/
http://www.amazon.com/Autoconf-Automake-Libtool-Gary-Vaughn/dp/1578701902
5 Oct
5 Oct
11:22 a.m.
New subject: configure cancer was Re: Non-Apache webservers was Re: strange remark about your collection?
At 10:08 PM 10/2/2012, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
There is absolutely no reason that that should require
learning 2 other programming languages.
You must be new here.
- John
1 Oct
1 Oct
5:04 a.m.
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote:
With Apache the gold standard when it comes to public facing web
servers, and with constantly changing links and the need for reducing
support emails, who in their right mind /doesn't/ use Apache along
with stuff such as mod_rewrite these days?
Perhaps I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. I
wouldn't go _near_ apache; it includes far too much stuff I have no
need for and therefore do not want in my exposed attack surface.
But, what are you using the web server for?
Again, I qualified this as "public facing web servers", not a webserver
used for personal use or embedded applications. For those applications
there are other, potentially more suitable webserver implementations. When
you have a need Apache's functionality, you run Apache ;P
Apache may have a lot of optional features, but as widely as it is used
and as much auditing has been done on its code, I'd trust it more than I
would one of the smaller single threaded webservers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linus%27_Law
Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall what it was. Probably somewhere
in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if
anyone cares.
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the consumer
chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would probably work.
It's when you are running the entire OS from media such as CompactFlash or
SD card where you don't have swap that having less memory can become a
challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As cheap as second hand
SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is the easiest solution.
[A] 486 based
system will simply not have enough physical memory
available [...] while serving up pages via Apache.
Perhaps, if you insist on
running apache. [...] I found 32M plenty usable for NetBSD until I pushed
one machine to
4.0.1 [...]. At 64M there was no problem.
Which i486 boards are you aware of that support 64MB of cachable ram?
5:28 a.m.
On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:04 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of
ram (even the consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would
probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such as CompactFlash
or SD card where you don't have swap that having less memory can become a challenge
with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though,
adding more memory is the easiest solution.
Sure, assuming the option is available. For a long time, I ran
my home router on a PC-104 stack running an AMD Elan (which, if
I recall correctly, is an Am5x86 System-on-a-Chip) which had its
32MB RAM soldered to the board. It made a certain amount of
sense, since PC-104 is widely used as an industrial platform,
but I certainly couldn't expand the RAM.
In any case, this ran OpenBSD 3.0 on a 32 MB CompactFlash just
fine (stripped down to fit, of course, but fine) and handled
all the traffic to our webserver over the DSL line just fine.
I don't anticipate that modern OpenBSD would perform the same;
we recently upgraded to a Mini-ITX Atom board with 2 GB of RAM
and run modern OpenBSD relatively comfortably.
- Dave
2:56 p.m.
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, David Riley wrote:
On Oct 1, 2012, at 8:04 AM, Tothwolf wrote:
True. It actually would be possible to upgrade the memory via an expansion
board in the stack, or possibly even replace the on-board ram chips, but
in a case such as this, it would unfortunately be easier to replace the
PC/104 processor board and repurpose the old board for a different
application.
Most of the "newer" PC/104 boards I work with at least are able to accept
various SODIMMs, and those that I had to work with recently all seemed to
handle at least 256MB or 512MB without any major issues (finding
low-density 16-chip 256MB SODIMM modules for some of the boards wasn't the
easiest though).
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB
of ram (even the
consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would
probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such
as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less
memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As
cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is
the easiest solution.
Sure, assuming the option is available. For a long time, I ran my home
router on a PC-104 stack running an AMD Elan (which, if I recall
correctly, is an Am5x86 System-on-a-Chip) which had its 32MB RAM
soldered to the board. It made a certain amount of sense, since PC-104
is widely used as an industrial platform, but I certainly couldn't
expand the RAM.
In any case, this ran OpenBSD 3.0 on a 32 MB CompactFlash just fine
(stripped down to fit, of course, but fine) and handled all the traffic
to our webserver over the DSL line just fine. I don't anticipate that
modern OpenBSD would perform the same; we recently upgraded to a
Mini-ITX Atom board with 2 GB of RAM and run modern OpenBSD relatively
comfortably.
6:15 a.m.
Again, I qualified this as "public facing web
servers", not a webserver
used for personal use or embedded applications. For those applications
there are other, potentially more suitable webserver implementations. When
you have a need Apache's functionality, you run Apache ;P
I run my own web server (httpi.floodgap.com) mostly because I can, and
because it's been banged on for over a decade. Yes, it's public facing.
Apache is usually not the wrong answer, but I have always distrusted
computing monocultures of any sort.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- #include <std_disclaimer.h> ------------------------------------------------
7:46 a.m.
m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev Tothwolf:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote:
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the consumer
chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would probably work.
It's when you are running the entire OS from media such as CompactFlash or
SD card where you don't have swap that having less memory can become a
challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As cheap as second hand
SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is the easiest solution.
Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M
(3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M
memory modules.
Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( .
ONe other method is to upgrade the BIOS-after that the MB is a bit more
lenient on the memory module particulars...
Cheap PC sort but Dell still sold them as a workstation, what a way of
devaluation of that word.
Which i486 boards are you aware of that support 64MB of cachable ram?
Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall what it was. Probably somewhere
in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if
anyone cares.
2:49 p.m.
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote:
m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev Tothwolf:
Which chipset does it use? I've run into many boards where the
documentation regarding how much memory the board could support was wrong.
Case in point, some of the AMD based Compaq systems state 384MB max (3x
128MB) but in fact actually support 1.5GB (3x 512MB). Back in the days of
Slot 1 CPUs, Dell locked some their motherboards to certain slower models
of P2 CPUs with later BIOS revisions, so it is certainly possible they did
something similar with memory.
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote:
Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M
(3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M
memory modules. Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( .
ONe other method is to upgrade the BIOS-after that the MB is a bit more
lenient on the memory module particulars...
Cheap PC sort but Dell still sold them as a workstation, what a way of
devaluation of that word. Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall
what it was. Probably somewhere
in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if
anyone cares.
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the
consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would
probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such
as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less
memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As
cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is
the easiest solution.
2 Oct
2 Oct
9:10 a.m.
m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 16:49 -0500 skrev Tothwolf:
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote:
It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.)
According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM.
m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev
Tothwolf:
Which chipset does it use? I've run into many boards where the
documentation regarding how much memory the board could support was wrong.
Case in point, some of the AMD based Compaq systems state 384MB max (3x
128MB) but in fact actually support 1.5GB (3x 512MB). Back in the days of
Slot 1 CPUs, Dell locked some their motherboards to certain slower models
of P2 CPUs with later BIOS revisions, so it is certainly possible they did
something similar with memory. On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote:
Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M
(3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M
memory modules. Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( .
ONe other method is to upgrade the BIOS-after that the MB is a bit more
lenient on the memory module particulars...
Cheap PC sort but Dell still sold them as a workstation, what a way of
devaluation of that word. Oh, this wasn't a 486. I don't recall
what it was. Probably somewhere
in the PII or PIII range; I think I can find the machine and check if
anyone cares.
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the
consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would
probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media such
as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having less
memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui, etc). As
cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more memory is
the easiest solution. 
10:06 a.m.
On 2 October 2012 18:10, Stefan Skoglund <stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:
It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.)
According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM.
According to IBM, my Thinkpad 1200 series model 1163G (Pentium-IIIM)
only supports a single 128MB SO-DIMM for a total of 192MB RAM.
However, I bought it from a shop where I knew the staff well - I used
to work there - and they let me try a variety of DIMMs in it before I
took the machine. We had no difficulty finding a 256MB DIMM that
worked fine. Result, 320MB RAM, enough for Windows 2000 to run well.
Don't believe what manufacturers tell you. They don't always know.
The only snag with my machine is that the BIOS doesn't believe the
amount of RAM, so every boot, it decides the CMOS NVRAM is corrupt and
zeroes it. It still boots fine but I have to put a tool in the boot
sequence to set the time and date off the network. Otherwise, it runs
perfectly.
Today, as a veteran 11YO with a broken screen hinge, it runs Lubuntu &
Crunchbang but I am considering a switch to FreeBSD. :-)
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
4:26 p.m.
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Liam Proven wrote:
On 2 October 2012 18:10, Stefan Skoglund
<stefan.skoglund at agj.net> wrote:
That's interesting. Assuming that your machine has a 440MX chipset,
according to the Intel 440MX datasheet and design guide, the chipset
itself supports 128 Mbit modules (128 Mbit x16 = 256MB), but is limited to
256MB of system memory. Because the MX is based on the 440BX core, perhaps
that 256MB limitation isn't entirely accurate?
The BX chipset supports up to 4 banks of 256MB (8 rows, or 4 double sided
DIMMs) vs the MX which supports only 2 banks (4 rows, or 2 double sided
DIMMs). Since the 440MX appears to actually support up to 512MB of
addressable memory, assuming all the signals are routed correctly, it
might very well be possible to replace the chips on the motherboard with
higher density chips and top the system out at 512MB.
Oddly enough, the 440BX datasheet only mentions 64 Mbit modules, even
though I can state for a fact that the 440BX supports 128 Mbit modules,
since the machine I happen to be sitting at right now has a 440BX chipset
with 128Mbit (256MB) modules installed.
Tsk, tsk Intel...you need better writers ;P
Intel 440MX datasheet addendum
http://download.intel.com/embedded/chipsets/datasheet/273502.pdf
Intel 440MX design guide
http://download.intel.com/design/chipsets/designex/27350402.pdf
Intel 440BX 82443BX datasheet
http://developer.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/290633.htm
It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension
333D.)
According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM.
According to IBM, my Thinkpad 1200 series model 1163G (Pentium-IIIM)
only supports a single 128MB SO-DIMM for a total of 192MB RAM.
However, I bought it from a shop where I knew the staff well - I used to
work there - and they let me try a variety of DIMMs in it before I took
the machine. We had no difficulty finding a 256MB DIMM that worked fine.
Result, 320MB RAM, enough for Windows 2000 to run well.
Don't believe what manufacturers tell you. They don't always know. 
11:12 a.m.
Stefan Skoglund [stefan.skoglund at agj.net] wrote:
It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.)
According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM.
DELL may do all sorts of silly things with their BIOS but I use
a 440GX-based system and a 440LX-based system to both to test
168-pin SDRAM and for 5-1/4" floppy handling. Both systems
work fine with 2x1GB DIMMs and 4x512MB DIMMs, both registered
and unbuffered (but not mixed). They're also (I think) the
only systems I have that pass the full slew of IMGDSK tests.
Antonio
arcarlini at iee.org
3:41 p.m.
On Tue, 2 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote:
m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 16:49 -0500 skrev Tothwolf:
The 440LX chipset itself can support 512MB of SDRAM or 1GB of EDO, but
what you are running into is a density issue. The LX can handle up to 4
banks of double sided 64 Mbit x16 (128MB) modules, but Dell went with the
"small memory array" design that specifies 3 DIMM sockets instead of the
"large memory array" with 4 sockets. If the board is designed to spec, you
might be able to add more memory if you can find some double sided,
buffered EDO DIMMs, but I seem to remember those being difficult to
source.
See p11 and pp86-87 of the Intel 440LX 82443LX datasheet
http://developer.intel.com/design/chipsets/datashts/290564.htm
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Stefan Skoglund wrote:
It is a Intel 440LX chipset (Dell Dimension 333D.)
According to Dell the system only supports up to 128M DIMM. m?n 2012-10-01 klockan 07:04 -0500 skrev
Tothwolf:
Which chipset does it use? I've run into many boards where the
documentation regarding how much memory the board could support was
wrong. Case in point, some of the AMD based Compaq systems state 384MB
max (3x 128MB) but in fact actually support 1.5GB (3x 512MB). Back in
the days of Slot 1 CPUs, Dell locked some their motherboards to certain
slower models of P2 CPUs with later BIOS revisions, so it is certainly
possible they did something similar with memory.
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram (even the
consumer chipsets), but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would
probably work. It's when you are running the entire OS from media
such as CompactFlash or SD card where you don't have swap that having
less memory can become a challenge with modern software (no X, gui,
etc). As cheap as second hand SDRAM modules are though, adding more
memory is the easiest solution.
Njaa, my mother's Dell Dimension machine from 1997 only supports 384 M
(3 memory module slots) IF you can get hold of some a bit unusual 128M
memory modules. Dell sold them with 1 or 2 64M modules :-( .
1 Oct
1 Oct
9:14 a.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
Perhaps
I'm just not in my right mind, then - I use bozohttpd. I
wouldn't go _near_ apache; it includes far too much stuff I have no
need for and therefore do not want in my exposed attack surface.
But, what are you
using the web server for? Again, I qualified this as "public facing web
servers",
Oh, it's public-facing. It provides an HTTP view of my anonymous FTP
area. I don't know how much use it actually gets - I don't care enough
to bother extracting stats from the logs, especially since the Google
crawler drowns out almost everything else - but the major thing I would
miss if it were to break is my blah
(http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I
initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of
offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to
(horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
When you have a need Apache's functionality, you
run Apache ;P
Yeah, I did say "[u]nless you actually need some of its [] features".
Apache may have a lot of optional features, but as
widely as it is
used and as much auditing has been done on its code, I'd trust it
more than I would one of the smaller single threaded webservers.
A comparably feature-loaded one, perhaps. But I don't think that's
entirely fair when comparing against something like bozohttpd or (as
mentioned above) thttpd, which are very feature-poor; a feature that
isn't present in the code is a feature you're guaranteed to not suffer
from bugs in.
"There are two ways to make something appear bug-free: one is to make
it so simple there are obviously no defects; the other is to make it so
complex there are no obvious defects." (Paraphrased from memory.)
bozohttpd is 4358 lines, including overhead like the manpage and
Makefiles (I just checked), of which at least a few hundred are parts I
dike out. That's small enough to read over in full in an afternoon.
Apache's configure script alone is more than seven times that size.
Include files, over three times.
This is not _necessarily_ a problem; as remarked above, if you actually
have a use for those features, you need that code. I don't.
Any PII and PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of
ram
Maybe the CPU will. But that's not to say the machine will.
This one, I don't know; if I'd had large enough sticks of RAM for it,
the hardware might well have supported it for all I know.
but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would
probably work.
Oh, 32M _worked_...if you count thrashing for the better part of a day
to compile a single file as working. I don't really.
In any case, I don't consider that machine on-topic here; that was a
side note in response to something which I saw as implying that 128M
was some kind of effective minimum and that 32M was unusably little,
neither of which is true in my experience.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
10:38 a.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
Mouse wrote:
(http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I
don't recall why I
initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of
offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to
(horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites
for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL?
Peace... Sridhar
12:24 p.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
(http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I don't recall why I
initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of
offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to
(horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites
for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL?
1:13 p.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
Cameron Kaiser wrote:
gopher://
Yes, but the ftp:// would have already existed. A gopher:// URL would
require him to run gopherd, right?
Peace... Sridhar
(http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I
don't recall why I
initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of
offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to
(horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites
for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL?
1:24 p.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
gopher://
Heh. I maintain a gopher mirror of the Interactive Fiction Archive. See
gopher://gopher.feedle.net/
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
(http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I
don't recall why I
initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of
offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to
(horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites
for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL?
3:06 p.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Cameron Kaiser wrote:
gopher://
<sarcasm>
But!!! Gopher is insecure!
</sarcasm>
Bug 388195 - Remove gopher protocol support for Firefox
http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=388195
I suspect FTP may well be next.
(http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I
don't recall why I
initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of
offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to
(horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP
sites for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an
ftp:// URL?
8:29 p.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
>> I don't recall why I initially started
running [bozohttpd on my
>> anon FTP area]; the most plausible reason I can think of offhand is
>> to shut up people who were whining about having to (horrors!) use
>> something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
> I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP
> sites for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an
> ftp:// URL?
I don't know. Perhaps they were behind firewalling that allowed HTTP
but not FTP. Perhaps it was one of the (few) people I know that don't
really understand such things and had human-layer trouble with non-http
URL methods. Perhaps the browser in question was a so crippled as to
not support ftp://. More likely than any of those, I suspect, is that
the actual reason was something else and my guess was completely wrong.
It _was_ years and years ago.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
2 Oct
2 Oct
5:41 a.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
Imho ftp is a pita with firewalls in place. That's why any protocol that sticks to
just one port and initIation direction for communication is nice.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Mon, 1 Oct 2012 23:29:26
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Webservers,
apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
>> I don't recall why I initially started
running [bozohttpd on my
>> anon FTP area]; the most plausible reason I can think of offhand is
>> to shut up people who were whining about having to (horrors!) use
>> something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
> I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP
> sites for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an
> ftp:// URL?
I don't know. Perhaps they were behind firewalling that allowed HTTP
but not FTP. Perhaps it was one of the (few) people I know that don't
really understand such things and had human-layer trouble with non-http
URL methods. Perhaps the browser in question was a so crippled as to
not support ftp://. More likely than any of those, I suspect, is that
the actual reason was something else and my guess was completely wrong.
It _was_ years and years ago.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1 Oct
1 Oct
3:09 p.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Mouse wrote:
HTTP is technically more efficient for such browsing (no overhead of
constant FTP connection setups and teardowns). Not everyone has FTP
support working through their home-gateway-router device either, although
IMO such devices /should/ be including full support for FTP.
(http://ftp.rodents-montreal.org/mouse/blah/). I
don't recall why I
initially started running it; the most plausible reason I can think of
offhand is to shut up people who were whining about having to
(horrors!) use something other than a Web browser to look at my stuff.
I've been using a web browser to transfer files from anonymous FTP sites
for years, as have many others. Why didn't they just use an ftp:// URL?
3:19 p.m.
New subject: Webservers, apache and not. [Re: strange remark about your collection?]
On Mon, 1 Oct 2012, Mouse wrote:
That's a valid point. Stefan's Dell example is one I wasn't even thinking
about since I try to avoid such broken hardware designs at all costs and
don't generally run into such older Dell systems still in use.
Any PII and
PIII will support at a minimum 512MB of ram
Maybe the CPU will. But that's not to say the machine will. This one, I don't know; if I'd had large
enough sticks of RAM for it,
the hardware might well have supported it for all I know.
I wouldn't consider that working since it isn't really /usable/ in any
serious way.
but as long as you have swap, 32MB or 64MB would
probably work.
Oh, 32M _worked_...if you count thrashing for the better part of a day
to compile a single file as working. I don't really. In any case, I don't consider that machine
on-topic here; that was a
side note in response to something which I saw as implying that 128M was
some kind of effective minimum and that 32M was unusably little, neither
of which is true in my experience.
Meh. I once considered 16MB and then 32MB to be the usable minimum and I
once could run X11R6 on a 386DX with 32MB and swap. Today, based on my
experience, 128MB -without- swap space isn't usable for a single board
computer configured as a 2-interface router and DHCP server that includes
a caching nameserver, but 256MB got the job done.
29 Sep
29 Sep
10:23 a.m.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 06:10:14PM -0500, Tothwolf wrote:
I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian Linux just
fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For rather small
zones, admittedly.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Mouse wrote:
It wouldn't be the first, second, third, or even tenth time I've
seen someone spec a machine much larger than required so that they
could use it for their own purposes.
Oh yes ..
>>>>Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits per
>>>>day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system.
>>>>What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs of
>>>>RAM...
There is just no way someone is going to spec a
machine that
large for such a small task without some other background
motive.
I disagree. There are a whole lot of sysadmins who do not really
understand such things; I'm sure lots of them would go "oh, I want
a webserver, let's look up some recommended specs for webservers"
and find a spec list by someone who's doing all sorts of
server-side computation (which, to be fair, is what a lot of
people think of "a webserver" as doing). Or they ask a friend who
doesn't know the load in question and answers hurriedly. Or, with
slightly more competence, they find a wide spectrum of answers and
figure they don't know what's actually needed and err on the side
of extra power. Machines that large are not exactly commodity items,
even today.
Machines of that size are easily aquired today from your hardware vendor
of choice.
Latency,
mayyyybe, if there's an expectation that the whole page
be served with sub-second delay or some such silliness.
Even a one second delay while serving static content -is- a problem.
Each such delay adds to the total page load time, and it adds up in
a hurry.
A modern Linux or BSD distribution typically expects gobs of memory
(1GB+) but I've found most will run well with 128MB so long as swap
is available (and you aren't running BIND). As much as I actually
like the i486 arch (power efficiency, among other things), a 486
based system will simply not have enough physical memory available
(generally no more than 32MB) and it would craw to a halt with a
modern OS while trying to swap stuff out to disc while serving up
pages via Apache.
It doesn't have to be apache, even though that is kind of the default.
For instance lighttpd works just fine if all you want is to serve a bunch
of static pages and don't need any fancy tricks (like URL rewriting ...).
Kind regards,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
30 Sep
30 Sep
3:08 p.m.
A modern Linux
or BSD distribution [...] but I've found most will
run well with 128MB so long as swap is available (and you aren't
running BIND).
I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian
Linux
just fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For
rather small zones, admittedly.
4:51 p.m.
On 09/30/2012 06:08 PM, Mouse wrote:
My house nameserver is a 96M NetBSD/sparc machine, running BIND. I'm
not running huge zones like .com, but there is one that's not entirely
trivial (somewhat over two thousand records). According to top, it has
64M RAM free, and that's without even touching swap, so I'm fairly sure
96M is substantial overkill for the application.
Of course, the plural of `anecdote' is not `data'. But I do believe
that you don't need anywhere near a quarter-gig of RAM just for an OS
and BIND unless the OS is pretty severely bloated or you're serving big
zones.
Now now, this is classiccmp, you know how we hate real world
experience here.
My DNS server currently handles 319 zones, and functions as a resolver
for about thirty machines. Running BIND9 on an UltraSPARC-IIe at 500MHz
(Netra V100) with 1GB of RAM running NetBSD/sparc64 v5. No graphics or
other foolishness on this server-in-a-rack machine. It is also a build
server for a couple of software projects; when those jobs kick off it
gets a bit swappy, but it's fine otherwise.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
A modern Linux or BSD distribution [...] but I've
found most will
run well with 128MB so long as swap is available (and you aren't
running BIND).
I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian
Linux
just fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For
rather small zones, admittedly.
5:31 p.m.
On Sun, 30 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/30/2012 06:08 PM, Mouse wrote:
My house nameserver is a 96M NetBSD/sparc machine, running BIND. I'm
not running huge zones like .com, but there is one that's not entirely
trivial (somewhat over two thousand records). According to top, it has
64M RAM free, and that's without even touching swap, so I'm fairly sure
96M is substantial overkill for the application.
Of course, the plural of `anecdote' is not `data'. But I do believe
that you don't need anywhere near a quarter-gig of RAM just for an OS
and BIND unless the OS is pretty severely bloated or you're serving big
zones.
Now now, this is classiccmp, you know how we hate real world experience
here.
My DNS server currently handles 319 zones, and functions as a resolver
for about thirty machines. Running BIND9 on an UltraSPARC-IIe at 500MHz
(Netra V100) with 1GB of RAM running NetBSD/sparc64 v5. No graphics or
other foolishness on this server-in-a-rack machine. It is also a build
server for a couple of software projects; when those jobs kick off it
gets a bit swappy, but it's fine otherwise.
That matches up with my real world experiences. I was explicit about the
swap requirement with smaller amounts of memory for a reason.
Running BIND9 strictly as a _caching_ nameserver (the most common
application) under Debian Linux with 128MB of ram and no swap will no
longer work. The amount of memory required by BIND9 plus the basic OS (no
X, GUI, or other such fluff) will exceed 128MB of memory use and BIND will
core dump. With more memory -or- swap available, this does not happen.
This was a very unpleasant surprise when replacing the OS image on a
substantial number of embedded devices, which also included replacing
BIND8 and BIND9. In almost all cases it was trivial to just add more
memory, which has solved the problem. BIND9 might behave better while
serving small zones and not acting as a caching nameserver, but that isn't
something I've had a reason to test. While it would have been possible to
modify BIND itself so it would be better behaved, this isn't really
practical from a software maintainability standpoint.
A modern Linux or BSD distribution [...] but I've
found most will run
well with 128MB so long as swap is available (and you aren't running
BIND).
I've got machines with 256 MB of RAM running current Debian Linux
just fine. And yes, one of them is actually running BIND. For
rather small zones, admittedly.
5:50 p.m.
That matches up with my real world experiences. I was
explicit about the
swap requirement with smaller amounts of memory for a reason.
Running BIND9 strictly as a _caching_ nameserver (the most common
application) under Debian Linux with 128MB of ram and no swap will no
longer work. The amount of memory required by BIND9 plus the basic OS (no
X, GUI, or other such fluff) will exceed 128MB of memory use and BIND will
core dump. With more memory -or- swap available, this does not happen.
I run BIND8 on a Macintosh IIci with NetBSD and 128MB of RAM as an internal
nameserver (also to service very old DNS clients on my Solbourne and some
other difficult-to-upgrade systems). It works well for this purpose, and
does old-school AppleTalk as well.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Make welfare as hard to get as building permits. ---------------------------
29 Sep
29 Sep
10:09 a.m.
New subject: ROFLSCALE - Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 27/09/12 12:57 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Riley wrote:
Such a system could handle 1K hits/minute.
--T
On Sep 27, 2012, at 0:17, Tothwolf <tothwolf
at concentric.net> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, David Griffith wrote:
>> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Paul Anderson wrote:
>>
>>> A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively
>>> static pages, max 1k hits per day. They are looking at moving to a
>>> rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core Xeon with 96 gigs
>>> of RAM...
>>...
There is just no way someone is going to spec a machine that large for
such a small task without some other background motive. A Socket 7 based
machine such as a 200MHz Pentium P54CS with 128MB of ram can even handle
serving out 1k hits a day of static content...while running modern
software (BSD or Linux and Apache). I'm not sure I'd try it today with a
486 based system...
26 Sep
26 Sep
5:51 p.m.
On 26/09/12 3:54 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
On 2012-09-26, at 2:24 PM, Dave McGuire<mcguire at
neurotica.com> wrote:
Guess he missed that whole "use less energy" meme.
--T
On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
A friend of mine admins a webserver. Serves almost exclusively static pages, max 1k hits
per day. They are looking at moving to a rackmount system. What does he spec? Eight core
Xeon with 96 gigs of RAM...
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
"Thanks, Microsoft."
[cue Rabid Richard]
...as if its ability to process data has
somehow diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses. 
12:59 p.m.
On 26/09/2012 19:24, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/26/2012 01:32 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I have a Sun Ultra-60
which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes
around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator.
The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and
64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its
un-usable....
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
"Thanks, Microsoft."
[cue Rabid Richard]
...as if its ability to process data has
somehow diminished over the
years.
Anybody who knows enough to have a good modern computer that can run
current Windows, can tell you that they get slower and slower. Rebooting
will help a little, and re-installing the operating system helps, but
eventually the computer doesn't work because it slows down too much. And,
as they get older, they have TOO MANY viruses.
2:57 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 03:59 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I have a
Sun Ultra-60
which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes
around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator.
The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and
64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its
un-usable....
Comparing current machines with fifteen-year-old machines is far from
fair, but...What's the config of the U60? If you've got dual 450s and
2GB, which is the most it can support, it should be doing just fine.
Another issue there may be GCC, which is hopelessly fat...using the Sun
compiler, things will compile much faster, and it generates
significantly faster binaries on top of that.
Solaris does much, much better on machines with lots of processors.
Two (or four, eight...) is not a "lot" of processors...think 16+. Each
instance of each device driver runs in its own thread, so I/O is very
smoothly interleaved. They can get an amazing amount of work done if
one knows what one is doing. That's the kind of system current Solaris
is optimal for.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:49 p.m.
On 26/09/2012 22:57, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/26/2012 03:59 PM, Dave Wade wrote:
I thought this was flame war and advocacy, and "fair" had gone out of
the window...
... but I didn't realize it was 15 years old.
Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I
have a Sun Ultra-60
which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes
around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator.
The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and
64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its
un-usable....
Comparing current machines with fifteen-year-old machines is far
from
fair, but...What's the config of the U60? If you've got dual 450s and
2GB, which is the most it can support, it should be doing just fine.
Another issue there may be GCC, which is hopelessly fat...using the Sun
compiler, things will compile much faster, and it generates
significantly faster binaries on top of that.
I think it only has 600 MB of RAM,
but its a dual 450 with a 15k disk
from an IBM server and of course Hercules won't
compile with Sun Studio..
.. I keep it because its sometimes more nostalgic nice to
have a slow
mainframe. To be fair the PC I use is a 4-core 23Ghz i5 with 12 gb of
RAM so its pretty slick.
Solaris does much, much better on machines with
lots of processors.
Two (or four, eight...) is not a "lot" of processors...think 16+. Each
instance of each device driver runs in its own thread, so I/O is very
smoothly interleaved. They can get an amazing amount of work done if
one knows what one is doing. That's the kind of system current Solaris
is optimal for.
Ah yes I kind of understood that....
-Dave
--
Dave Wade G4UGM
Illegitimi Non Carborundum
28 Sep
28 Sep
2:17 p.m.
On 09/27/2012 02:49 AM, Dave Wade wrote:
I thought this was flame war and advocacy, and "fair" had gone out of
the window...
Hardly.
Sadly Solaris seems to have the same problem. I have a
Sun Ultra-60
which once seemed like a nice box. Sadly it no longer is. It takes
around 30 minutes to build the Hercules emulator.
The current Windows/7 box will build Hercules mainframe emulator (32 and
64-bit binaries) in under a minute. Whilst I like the U-60 I think its
un-usable....
Comparing current machines with fifteen-year-old machines is far
from
fair, but...What's the config of the U60? ... but I didn't realize it was 15 years old.
Actually 13, introduced in 1999.
I think it only has 600 MB of RAM, but its a dual 450
with a 15k disk
from an IBM server and of course Hercules won't compile with Sun Studio..
I got it compiled with Sun Studio a couple of years ago. But either
way, GCC is well known to have performance issues, especially on that
platform. Also either way, the RAM is your limitation there. Solaris
is not a small, lightweight desktop OS.
.. I keep it because its sometimes more nostalgic nice
to have a slow
mainframe. To be fair the PC I use is a 4-core 23Ghz i5 with 12 gb of
RAM so its pretty slick.
Yes. It only took Intel twenty years to get serious about it, but
they finally figured out how to get decent performance out of their
archaic architecture. I have an i7 here, and I'm impressed by its
performance. That's saying something, as I have NEVER before this been
impressed with the performance of any x86-family processor, all the way
back to the 8086. It still doesn't come anywhere near the performance
of some of the big Suns here, but then I don't want an 1100lb rack as my
desktop machine, either. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
26 Sep
26 Sep
12:15 p.m.
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:51 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
...as if its ability to process data has somehow
diminished over the
years.
A (working) system from 1980 still does what it does in 1980, and in
some cases, with recently designed add-ons (like disk emulators with
ancient interfaces that use modern FLASH memory, or Ethernet
interfaces for machines that never had Ethernet back in the day),
*more* than they ever did, but what's changed is what we all expect
out of a "computer"...
We always processed files, compiled programs, printed images (even if
in ASCII art), played music, played games, and more. The data rates
and bandwidths and visual/auditory quality keep going up and up, so
that what's common now was impossible to achieve with home gear, or at
best a very big deal.
I certainly play more high-res graphic games than I play text-based
console games these days (compared with 1982 when I had a C-64 for
video games, and a PET for text/character-graphic games), and the same
trend goes for the less computer-involved public who used to game on
Atari or NES or whatever before there were massive GPUs for PCs or
gaming consoles. At least when you set up an Atari 2600 these days,
there's a line of folks who want to play, just for the nostalgia,
because it's something *they* remember doing 25 years ago. "They"
never sat down at a VT100 or a printing console and installed an
operating system (or at least *very* few did).
But I hear you - I get asked all the time, "but what's it _good_ for?"
I compare it to building ships in bottles - not a productive
activity, but an entertaining one. That explanation seems to deflect
most of the odd looks. Most.
-ethan
1:21 p.m.
From: Ethan Dicks <ethan.dicks at gmail.com>
I certainly play more high-res graphic games than I play text-based
console games these days (compared with 1982 when I had a C-64 for
video games, and a PET for text/character-graphic games)...snip
C: Incidentally how rare is Advent for the IBM PC? I used to have a copy. I chucked it.
Was that a mistake?
27 Sep
27 Sep
8:33 a.m.
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: Incidentally how rare is Advent for the IBM PC? I
used to have a
copy. I chucked it. Was that a mistake?
"Advent"? or "Adventure"?? version published by Microsoft?
Did you chuck it before or after getting past the snake? (THROW BIRD)
C: Well Advent was short for Adventure afaik. Used to play it on paper terminals in high
school. But yes it was by M*. I chucked it long before then. I actually never played it.
Came w/a huge lot of other stuff.
12:32 p.m.
But I hear you - I get asked all the time, "but
what's it _good_ for?"
I compare it to building ships in bottles - not a productive
activity, but an entertaining one. That explanation seems to deflect
most of the odd looks. Most.
I sometimes descrbie troubelshooting classic computers as being similar t
o solving corssword puzzles/sudoku/etc. It is a good way of keeping your
brain active.
-tony
26 Sep
26 Sep
2:20 p.m.
On 26 September 2012 06:58, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
is it even usefull anymore
Which leads on to the slightly more perverse vintage computing option
- running a current OS and (subset of) apps (and then finding a case
where the VAX was the only available machine on a segment on to run a
dhcp server :)
Of course at one point the VAX ended up running RT-11 under under
simh. I was going to try VMS under simh as well but ran out of time...
(That would tick all the boxes of "vintage hardware", "current OS",
"vintage OS", and "needs to get out more")
5:55 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 05:20 PM, David Brownlee wrote:
On 26 September 2012 06:58, Adrian Stoness
<tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
Don't forget "does far more interesting things than his neighbors who
spend their time watching other people chase a ball around in the grass".
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
is it even usefull anymore
Which leads on to the slightly more perverse vintage computing option
- running a current OS and (subset of) apps (and then finding a case
where the VAX was the only available machine on a segment on to run a
dhcp server :)
Of course at one point the VAX ended up running RT-11 under under
simh. I was going to try VMS under simh as well but ran out of time...
(That would tick all the boxes of "vintage hardware", "current OS",
"vintage OS", and "needs to get out more") 
25 Sep
25 Sep
11:05 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks
<tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause
of this.
/P
What strange remark have you had about your
collection?
"Why?"
It's no so much the word as the tone :)
26 Sep
26 Sep
1:05 a.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Pontus wrote:
On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote:
If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with
Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks
<tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au>
wrote:
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause of
this. What strange remark have you had about your
collection?
"Why?"
It's no so much the word as the tone :)
5:15 a.m.
On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with Model T Fords.
That usually satisfies the curious.
One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't aware that these
even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go through a whole explanation of what a
slide rule is, what it was used for, etc.
In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one either, so most of
the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham
radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed to endless explanation...
10:54 a.m.
like these?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/5147764344/in/photostream/lightbox/
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi
at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't
aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go through
a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used for, etc.
In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one
either, so most of the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient
Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed to
endless explanation...
If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with
Model T
Fords. That usually satisfies the curious.
12:52 p.m.
Indeed! Happen to have a photo of the back?
Sent from my iPhone
On 2012-09-26, at 1:54 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
like these?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/5147764344/in/photostream/lightbox/
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
> On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
>
>>
>> If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with
> Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious.
>
> One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't
> aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go through
> a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used for, etc.
>
> In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one
> either, so most of the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient
> Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed to
> endless explanation...
>
3 p.m.
have to dig it outa storage. i beleave i even have the manual for it...
got a couple other ones also they were my grandfathers he was a bush pilot
in northern manitoba
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:52 PM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
Indeed! Happen to have a photo of the back?
Sent from my iPhone
On 2012-09-26, at 1:54 PM, Adrian Stoness <tdk.knight at gmail.com> wrote:
like these?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/1ajs/5147764344/in/photostream/lightbox/
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com>
wrote:
> On 2012-09-26, at 4:05 AM, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
wrote:
>
>>
>> If the subject comes up, I just point out that people still play with
> Model T Fords. That usually satisfies the curious.
>
> One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't
> aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go
through
> a whole explanation of what a slide rule is,
what it was used for, etc.
>
> In university, I'm studying classics. Nobody seems to know that one
> either, so most of the time I just take a shortcut and tell them Ancient
> Greece and Rome. Add to that my ham radio hobby, and I think I'm doomed
to
> endless explanation...
>
11:30 a.m.
One of my other hobbies is collecting slide rules. Most people aren't
aware that these even *existed*. Whenever it comes up, I have to go
through a whole explanation of what a slide rule is, what it was used
for, etc.
Sitting o n shelf here I have a cylindrical object about the size of
small truncheon. I often ask visitors what it is usef for, I say it's not
a weapon of any kind. So far nobody has figured it out.
It is, of course, an Otis King helical slide rule.
-tony
1:03 p.m.
On 2012-09-26, at 2:30 PM, ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Sitting o n shelf here I have a cylindrical object about the size of
small truncheon. I often ask visitors what it is usef for, I say it's not
a weapon of any kind. So far nobody has figured it out.
It is, of course, an Otis King helical slide rule.
I have an Otis King in my collection. It's one of my favourites. Very accurate, and
IMO quite lovely. I love pointing out that if you straightened out the scales, they would
be as tall as I am.
I gravitate toward slide rules that have interesting scales or embody unusual ideas. I
have a British Thornton side rule with what they call "differential trig" scales
- they're supposed to make accurate setting of trig stuff easier. I have an Aristo
969, which is nearly three inches wide. It's one of the largest slide rules made,
barring ones intended for teaching. I have a Pickett N4-ES, with 34 scales. As far as
I'm aware, it had the largest number of scales ever on a production slide rule.
There's a fairly plain Jane Hemmi that says "Made in occupied Japan", and a
pre-war Hemmi that has the word "Japan" scratched out with black pen. I could go
on for quite a while about my collection:) If you see me around, it's guaranteed I
have at least one slide rule on my person.
27 Sep
27 Sep
12:55 p.m.
I have an Otis King in my collection. It's one of
my favourites. Very
I acutally have 2 of them. My father geve me his, which he had as a
research student and stoipped using only when he got an electronic
calcualtor. The scond one I found i na charity shop (thrift store) for
\pounds 5.00. Oddly, thrre was one in the antique shop across the road
for aobut 40 tiems that price...
accurate, and IMO quite lovely. I love pointing out
that if you
straightened out the scales, they would be as tall as I am.
I also have the Stnaley-Fuller :-). That has even longer scales, but it
doens't fit in a pocket.
-tony
26 Sep
26 Sep
5:17 a.m.
On 2012-09-26, at 2:05 AM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote:
Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of the most
important inventions in human history."
"Why?"
It's no so much the word as the tone :)
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause of this.
11:50 a.m.
On 09/26/2012 02:17 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
On 2012-09-26, at 2:05 AM, Pontus <pontus at
update.uu.se> wrote:
If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an
impression on some people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new"
followed by "I found it in the trash" :)
/P
On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote:
Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of
the most important inventions in human history." "Why?"
It's no so much the word as the tone :)
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell
people what I do for a hobby 'cause of this.
12:38 p.m.
I've had from a friend's sister "David's study: thats where computers
go to die"
:/
1:10 p.m.
On 2012-09-26, at 2:50 PM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an impression on some
people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new" followed by "I found it in
the trash" :)
Similar deal with slide rules. Adjusted for inflation, they were expensive devices. My
dads old Hemmi(same as a Post 1461, pocket version of the Versalog), adjusted for
inflation, went for about $500 in modern terms.
Though, I find if you can connect it to something historical that they know about and
understand, then they *really* get it. I can go into a whole long spiel about slide rules
and their importance, but when I hand them my Nestler 23R and explain that they are
holding the same model used by Einstein, their eyes just light up with amazement. I have
yet to find any other way of presenting it that is quite so effective at communicating the
wonder to people.
3:12 p.m.
you could go when the next big solar flare hits how are we going to do math
well i will have the corner of the market on these things
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 3:10 PM, Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com> wrote:
On 2012-09-26, at 2:50 PM, Pontus <pontus at
update.uu.se> wrote:
Similar deal with slide rules. Adjusted for inflation, they were expensive
devices. My dads old Hemmi(same as a Post 1461, pocket version of the
Versalog), adjusted for inflation, went for about $500 in modern terms.
Though, I find if you can connect it to something historical that they
know about and understand, then they *really* get it. I can go into a whole
long spiel about slide rules and their importance, but when I hand them my
Nestler 23R and explain that they are holding the same model used by
Einstein, their eyes just light up with amazement. I have yet to find any
other way of presenting it that is quite so effective at communicating the
wonder to people.
If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an
impression
on some people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new" followed
by "I found it in the trash" :)
27 Sep
27 Sep
2:07 a.m.
On 09/26/2012 10:10 PM, Paul Anderson wrote:
On 2012-09-26, at 2:50 PM, Pontus <pontus at
update.uu.se> wrote:
Oh, haven't though about it, but I guess it took a bit of craftsmanship
back then to get them accurate and usable. I'll definitely hang on to my
fathers slide rule.. heck I might even learn how to use it.
If that doesn't bring it home, I've found this answer makes an impression on some
people "Oh this, it cost 400 000 dollars new" followed by "I found it in
the trash" :)
Similar deal with slide rules. Adjusted for inflation, they were expensive
devices. My dads old Hemmi(same as a Post 1461, pocket version of the Versalog), adjusted
for inflation, went for about $500 in modern terms.
Though, I find if you can connect it to something historical that they know about and
understand, then they *really* get it.
That is also true. I have a alpha rack which used to be part of a
Top-500 computer. Not just the model, but the actual computer.
Supercomputers is something that people "understand".
/P
11:59 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 05:07 AM, Pontus wrote:
Not here they don't. The typical reaction here is "Oh, those big
computers are the OLD ones, don't you know that? We have laptops now!
Nobody uses those big computers anymore."
Showing them pictures of a Blue Gene machine usually results in
remarks like "Wow, that one is HUGE, it must be REALLY old! I bet my
iPad is faster!"
(usually followed by: "Durrrr...what game is on tonight?")
Like I said...I find it beneficial to simply avoid associating with
such people.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Though, I find
if you can connect it to something historical that they
know about and understand, then they *really* get it.
That is also true. I have a alpha rack which used to be part of a
Top-500 computer. Not just the model, but the actual computer.
Supercomputers is something that people "understand".
26 Sep
26 Sep
1:23 p.m.
________________________________
From: Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com>
Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts related to the history of one of the most
important inventions in human history."
C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I have an IBM from 1951,
couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are typewriter collectors no doubt. But a unit
that sports an IBM monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers)
doesn't arouse the interest of anyone???
?Or copiers. I got a bag of vintage toner for a sharp unit if anyone's interested
(that had an 8088 incidentally).
4:01 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 04:23 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts
related to the history of one of the most important inventions in human history."
C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I have an IBM from
1951, couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are typewriter collectors no doubt. But a
unit that sports an IBM monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers)
doesn't arouse the interest of anyone???
Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
8:16 p.m.
At 7:01 PM -0400 9/26/12, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/26/2012 04:23 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
One of my favorite stores in Portland specializes in two things,
traditional Cameras & Darkroom equipment, and Typewriters.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts
related to the history of
one of the most important inventions in human history."
C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I
have an IBM from 1951, couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are
typewriter collectors no doubt. But a unit that sports an IBM
monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers)
doesn't arouse the interest of anyone???
Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby.
27 Sep
27 Sep
7:03 a.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/26/2012 04:23 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Partaken by some of us here. *hint* *hint*
Peace... Sridhar
Easy answer: "I'm preserving artefacts
related to the history of one of the most important inventions in human history."
C: Well...I don't see too many people collecting typewriters (I have an IBM from
1951, couldn't get 25$ for it). I mean there are typewriter collectors no doubt. But a
unit that sports an IBM monniker??? The junction of those 2 hobbies (puters and copiers)
doesn't arouse the interest of anyone???
Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby.
8:55 a.m.
From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>
? ? Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE
hobby.
Partaken by some of us here.? *hint*? *hint*
Peace...? Sridhar
C: So make me an offer :). Not sure if I want to sell it at this point. It actually works,
but is slooooooow. Needs a lube job. It's the first vintage item I've actually
found on the side of the road, despite numerous claims that vintage stuff is EVERYWHERE.
I've developed an emotional attachment because of that.
?Anyone else have an IBM typewriter from 1951?
10:07 a.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C:\DERP> So make me an offer :). Not sure if I want
to sell it at this
point.
. . . I've developed an emotional attachment because of that.
That's a perfectly valid reason to hang onto it. Fix it up and use it!
Gut a few keyboards to get switches to put on the underside of the key
levers, add a lot of solenoids, and build a terminal out of it!
?Anyone else have an IBM typewriter from 1951?
1951??!? That's not old. Collectibel is MUCH older. Hang onto it for
another 50 years, and THEN it will be collectible.
I used one from that vintage in high school. The smell was awesome, but
some of that was because my father never used the right oil when he used
it.
1:35 p.m.
> I used one from that vintage in high school. The
smell was awesome, but
> some of that was because my father never used the right oil when he used
> it.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, David Riley wrote:
Well whale oil wasn't available?
He wouldn't even pay the cost of free-range!
Alas, he thought that "3 in 1" oil was suitable for EVERYTHING.
He knew that Phillips screwdrivers were differnet from "regular ones", but
never grasped that there were different sizes of both, and considered a
dime to be a suitable substitute. But, he did somehow manage to keep the
close to a dozen typewriters in the house working! After he died, my
mother only kept three of them.
11:35 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 10:07 AM, Fred Cisin wrot
I used one from that vintage in high school. The smell
was awesome,
but some of that was because my father never used the right oil when
he used it.
When I was in college, I visited a collector (actually, he collected
lots of stuff) of typewriters. He had a wonderful collection of
specimens with two keyboards (upper and lower-case), typewriters where
you couldn't see what you were typing (the platen faced downwards) and
lots of variations. Those would probably be worth real money today.
He also put out the local weekly advertising circular using an old
Linotype hot-type machine, complete with gas-fired burner for the metal
pot. I got to play with it some--operating one of those is not like
typing at all. For one thing, the keys are in the wrong order...
I guess the moral is "buy a farm, live to a ripe old age, never move
house and collect like crazy" .
--Chuck
1:30 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2012 2:35 PM
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
I guess the moral is "buy a farm, live to a ripe
old age, never move house
and collect like crazy" .
--Chuck
Its funny what you said above moving house, quite a few cool things end up
getting tossed to other collectors when people have to move. Also there are
plenty of hobbies that used to be hot that have pretty much died out
(baseball cards, stamp collecting, marbles, etc) so collecting like crazy
will not make you rich.
8:28 a.m.
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
? Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby.
C: So why little or no interest in an IBM?
9:56 a.m.
From: Jason McBrien <jbmcb1 at gmail.com>
C: So why little or no interest in an IBM?
Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for?
C: Ok, different category though. Which goes to show this hobby often isn't about
"old", but rather about "familiar".
????? Please don't show me anymore stuff. The darker colored models (red, green, BLUE,
black) are rather nice to look at. Do any of those sport uP support? Perhaps a strange
question, but I personally can't see myself collecting analog equipment of that sort
at this point.
?Now there's a reason for me to hold on to my little buddy. One day it'll achieve
widespread recognition. Maybe I should also hold on to my Vicki (currently up for
auction). I'll never see one again that's for sure.
10 a.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Jason McBrien wrote:
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>wrote:
Often USD $5-$20 per pallet at local university auctions. Online guys can
"ask" whatever they like (and dream). Most people don't bother with them
at local auctions because of the bulk.
C: So why little or no interest in an IBM?
Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for?
11:55 a.m.
On Sep 27, 2012, at 1:00 PM, Tothwolf wrote:
Hm, wish I lived where you do (or knew what auctions to look into...
presumably at least some of the four major universities in Philly
have excess typewriters they're selling). I'd love a mid-'50s
portable for practice, but the Selectrics are very nice for day-to-
day typing.
- Dave
Have you seen
what original Selectrics are going for?
Often USD $5-$20 per pallet at local university auctions. Online guys can "ask"
whatever they like (and dream). Most people don't bother with them at local auctions
because of the bulk.
3:41 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tothwolf
Sent: 27 September 2012 18:00
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Jason McBrien wrote:
Whilst I havn't tried really hard I can't move my Selectric Electronic
Composer....
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 11:28 AM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>wrote:
Often USD $5-$20 per pallet at local university auctions.
Online guys can
"ask" whatever they like (and dream). Most people don't
bother with them
at local auctions because of the bulk.
C: So why little or no interest in an IBM?
Have you seen what original Selectrics are going for?
10 a.m.
oh look, someone got 30$ for one. Yay:
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=%28old%2Cearly%2Cancient%2C195*%29+ibm+…
Time to sell, time to sell. There are others unsold ones there, I don't know what
their problem is (9.99$). Look dusty.
Do I hear 35$...
8:54 a.m.
Same as computer hobby. Weight/shipping rivals the value of many type writers. So while
the crowd is out there you have to find the person locally or with the funds and space for
another type writer.
On the flip side there are/were a few that could actually run cpm and didn't advertise
their computer ability.
-----Original Message-----
From: Chris Tofu <rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:28:25
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
? Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE hobby.
C: So why little or no interest in an IBM?
10 a.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote:
C:\DERP> So why little or no interest in an IBM?
How old is it?
I had one, and had difficulty giving it away. But that was an electric.
The collectible ones are generally MUCH older than that, although there
does seem to be some interest in the WW2 portables.
11:26 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 01:00 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 barythrin at gmail.com wrote:
A friend of the family is a somewhat well-known typewriter collector.
Most of the machines in his collection are more than a century old.
Keep in mind that ours is a very young field, compared to most other
stuff. A 40-year-old computer is a big deal...a 40-year-old typewriter
is something someone will probably still be using and not thinking of as
anything particularly "antique"-like.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
C:\DERP> So why little or no interest in an
IBM?
How old is it?
I had one, and had difficulty giving it away. But that was an electric.
The collectible ones are generally MUCH older than that, although there
does seem to be some interest in the WW2 portables.
10:16 a.m.
From: "barythrin at gmail.com" <barythrin at gmail.com>
Same as computer hobby. Weight/shipping rivals the value of many type writers. So while
the crowd is out there you have to find the person locally or with the funds and space for
another type writer.
C: Anyone can see that the colorful ones are very attractive. Most people could do w/one.
Shipping shouldn't be horrendous unless it had to cross the entire fruited plane.
On the flip side there are/were a few that could actually run cpm and didn't advertise
their computer ability.?
C: Please name them. I know some word processors ran DOS. Did any run cp/m-86? I'm big
into cp/m-86 these days. Seeing all my Canon AS-100 disks have crapped the bed (some were
cp/m-86, but most were dos). Maybe the 8" disks will have survived the ravages of
time and moisture (and heat).
11:33 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 11:28 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Actually, typewriter collecting is a rather HUGE
hobby.
C: So why little or no interest in an IBM?
First, there are LOTS AND LOTS of them out there. There are many
people who are interested in them...but they already have some. Keep in
mind that, until the past 20-30 years, the number of typewriters in the
world absolutely DWARFED the number of computers in the world.
Second, they're heavy and expensive to ship.
Third, what you're talking about is half a century newer than
anything most of these people are interested in.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:20 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
First, there are LOTS AND LOTS of them out there. There are many people
who are interested in them...but they already have some. Keep in mind that,
until the past 20-30 years, the number of typewriters in the world absolutely
DWARFED the number of computers in the world.
Second, they're heavy and expensive to ship.
Third, what you're talking about is half a century newer than anything most
of these people are interested in.
What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid boxes that turned IBM
Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but
I've never seen one in the wild...
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
3:27 p.m.
On 09/27/2012 04:20 PM, geneb wrote:
What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid
boxes that turned IBM
Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but
I've never seen one in the wild...
Same here. I remember them from ads in BYTE. I'd go
Selectric-hunting in a very serious way if I had one of those.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
6:30 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:27 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 09/27/2012 04:20 PM, geneb wrote:
I remember them from BYTE, too. When I was a kid, we had the
Selectrics (my mother was a professional typist), but the relay boards
were just a bit more expensive than she wanted to spend to put a
printer on my PET (maybe if she'd seen one working in a store it might
have been different, but the pictures didn't help enough to sell the
concept).
-ethan
What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those
solenoid boxes that turned IBM
Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but
I've never seen one in the wild...
Same here. I remember them from ads in BYTE. I'd go
Selectric-hunting in a very serious way if I had one of those.
3:40 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, geneb wrote:
What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid
boxes that turned IBM
Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them in Kilobaud, but
I've never seen one in the wild...
I used to have two top-of-keyboard ones! (I think that Eric got both.)
IIRC:
Rochester Dynatyper Had a doeble sided interface card - one side was
Apple][ slot, the other was 40pin card edge for TRS80 expansion bus.
KGS-80 ribbon cable with 34 pin female card edge connector for TRS80
printer port; I crimped a blue-ribbon ("Centronics") connector on it.
I used it twice:
1) keyboard on TRS80-III wouldn't work, but individual keys started to
work after "exercise". So, I put the actuator box on it and dumped a lot
of text.
2) transferring a manuscript (about Honda cars) into a Merganthaler
typesetting machine that did not have any external ports.
In addition to the two that I had, there were a few more.
For Selectric, the "Escon" that attached to the underside of the
selectric.
4:27 p.m.
On 28/09/2012, at 6:20 AM, geneb wrote:
What I'd enjoy seeing is one of those solenoid
boxes that turned IBM Selectrics into "printers". I've seen mention of them
in Kilobaud, but I've never seen one in the wild...
I had one of these, but sadly didn't get a suitable typewriter to try it out before I
passed it on to another collector. IIRC the PSU and interface/drivers were in one box and
the solenoid unit that sat on top of the keyboard was connected via a large cable. I
can't remember what sort of interface it was.
Not long after getting rid of it I started seeing cheap Selectrics all over the place..
Chris
26 Sep
26 Sep
5:37 a.m.
ons 2012-09-26 klockan 08:05 +0200 skrev Pontus:
On 09/26/2012 07:33 AM, Jason T wrote:
You live in UPPSALA DONT YOU ??
I have collegues in Upsala (ULJ) and most of us occasionally gets
asked :
WHY do you do all that heavy,hot and dirty works for FREE ?
Well, i could answer with:
I pay 250 kr/annum and a bit of sweat (and sometimes skin) for a nice
semester cottage and the privilege to sometimes practise at an old
craft.
Do you play soccer in "Korpen" ?? Maniacs (Korpen-players is not always
the kindest types of soccer-players.)
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks
<tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause
of this.
/P What strange remark have you had about your
collection?
"Why?"
It's no so much the word as the tone :)
11:37 a.m.
I have collegues in Upsala (ULJ) and most of us
occasionally gets
asked :
WHY do you do all that heavy,hot and dirty works for FREE ?
Well, i could answer with:
I pay 250 kr/annum and a bit of sweat (and sometimes skin) for a nice
semester cottage and the privilege to sometimes practise at an old
craft.
Do you play soccer in "Korpen" ?? Maniacs (Korpen-players is not always
the kindest types of soccer-players.)
A while a go one od the neighbouting houses here cotnained a family, the
son of which was into verious sports (unlike me). He would go off most
days at weekends nad play rugby or something. He also liked cats.
One of his cats visited me form time to time. I didn't mind, I love cats
too.
Anyway, one day I needed som hexagonal brass rod of a particular
dimension. So I drew a little sketch, calcualted the diameter of the
circumcircle of the hexagon and how much to mill off ofe each flat. I put
a bit of brass rod in the late and turned it ot the diameter of the
circumcircle. I was transfering it to the dviding head to mill the 6
flats when said boy uappeerad at the door asking if I'd seen his cat. I
hadn't (it turned up unharmed a little later in case anyone's worried).
But then he noticed the bit of paper wit hthe diagram and the
calcualtions on it. He asked what I was doing anf I explained.
He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???'
To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????'
-tony
1:44 p.m.
He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???'
To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play
sport _for fun_????'
You, Sir, are awesome.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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27 Sep
27 Sep
1:01 p.m.
He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???'
To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play
sport _for fun_????'
You, Sir, are awesome.
6:31 p.m.
He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???'
To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????'
You,
Sir, are awesome. 
28 Sep
28 Sep
12:46 a.m.
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 2:31 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
Why?
(a) Because you haven't bought into the societal assumption (at least
on this side of the pond, but what I've seen leads me to think it
exists there too) that sports are fun by default;
(b) Because you realize this and had no hesitation using it to turn
that kid's bait;
(c) Because you consider that "the only sane reply";
(d) Because you do maths for fun.
(e) Let me add it can be cheaper than going out to the pub,gym etc
Getting a new collectable can give you many hours of restoration
and repair time plus research and use time of the item. where a
nights drinking is then over except for the headache next day.
Dave Caroline
He then said
'You do maths _for fun_???'
To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????'
You,
Sir, are awesome.
1:10 p.m.
He then said 'You do maths _for fun_???'
To which I gave the only sane reply 'You play sport _for fun_????'
You,
Sir, are awesome.
(b) Because you realize this and had no hesitation using it to turn
that kid's bait;
I don;t think it was bair. I think he was genuinely suprised that anyone
would do mathematics for fon. I suspect he thoguth that solving equations
was the ultimate torture. Jaut as I would regard having to chase a ball
around.
(c) Because you consider that "the only sane reply";
(d) Because you do maths for fun.
Actually, I am a lot less methematically-inclined than many of my
friends,. In fact I try to avoid doign maths if I can find a neat
solution to the problem. Recently I've been looking at a resisotr network
circuit [1]. I can (and did) write down the equations givign the output
voltage as a function of the input voltage (using the superprosition
principle to solve for one input at a time) and solve them. This shows me
it does indeed behave as I'd esxpect, but I still don't feel satisfied. I
don't feel I really understnad it. I am still looking for an intuitive
way to figure it out.
On the other hand, I am a lot more mathmeatically inclined than 90% (or
more) of the populatiion. It worries me -- a lot -- that none of the
neighbours here had any idea what 'e' was (base of natural logarithms,
not the elctronic chaerge), for example.
-tony
30 Sep
30 Sep
3:52 p.m.
In fact I try to avoid doign maths if I can find a
neat solution to
the problem. Recently I've been looking at a resisotr network
circuit [1].
...dangling pointer here...
I can (and did) write down the equations givign the
output voltage as
a function of the input voltage (using the superprosition principle
to solve for one input at a time) and solve them.
I'd say that counts as doing math(s)!
This shows me it does indeed behave as I'd
esxpect, but I still don't
feel satisfied. I don't feel I really understnad it. I am still
looking for an intuitive way to figure it out.
Depending on the resistor network, there may not be one.
I wanted to do something of the sort myself, once (prompted by the
resistor network in xkcd #730). I treated it as a case of generalizing
an uninteresting problem enough to make it interesting and then solving
it; I built a program that takes a resistor network, including
resistances and the ability to specify voltages at some nodes, and sets
up the equations and solves them, giving current through each
resistance and voltage at each node. (Of course, anyone who wants a
copy is welcome to it; if you have git set up, you can ge tit by
cloning git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/resistor-networks; if you
don't, I can mail out copies. You'll also need lcs-cvt, as in
ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/local/src/lcs-cvt/, or a little hand
tweaking.)
On the other hand, I am a lot more mathmeatically
inclined than 90%
(or more) of the populatiion. It worries me -- a lot -- that none of
the neighbours here had any idea what 'e' was (base of natural
logarithms, not the elctronic chaerge), for example.
I once was at work when someone walked in wearing a T-shirt which said
"SPEED LIMIT" with a formula, 4 pi h-bar / 137 mu_0 e^2 is perhaps
clear enough as a text form of it. I said "h-bar is Planck's constant,
137 is the fine structure constant, mu-zero is the permittivity of free
space, but what's e?" - because I was pretty sure e didn't represent
antilog(1) there.
He said, "You're the first person to have gotten as far as `h-bar is
Planck's constant'.". (e turned out to be a constant which depends on
the material in the vicinity - the expression gives the local speed of
light, as opposed to the vacuum speed.)
Admittedly, knowing what Planck's constant is is of a slightly
different order than knowing what e is in the sense you were using it,
but I'd've hoped that at least a few people would....
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
12 Oct
12 Oct
2:41 p.m.
In fact I try to avoid doign maths if I can find
a neat solution to
the problem. Recently I've been looking at a resisotr network
circuit [1].
...dangling pointer here... I can (and did) write down the equations givign
the output voltage as
a function of the input voltage (using the superprosition principle
to solve for one input at a time) and solve them.
I'd say that counts as doing math(s)! This shows me it does indeed behave as I'd
esxpect, but I still don't
feel satisfied. I don't feel I really understnad it. I am still
looking for an intuitive way to figure it out.
Depending on the resistor network, there may not be one.
I wanted to do something of the sort myself, once (prompted by the
resistor network in xkcd #730). I treated it as a case of generalizing
an uninteresting problem enough to make it interesting and then solving
it; I built a program that takes a resistor network, including
resistances and the ability to specify voltages at some nodes, and sets
up the equations and solves them, giving current through each
resistance and voltage at each node. (Of course, anyone who wants a
copy is welcome to it; if you have git set up, you can ge tit by
cloning git://git.rodents-montreal.org/Mouse/resistor-networks; if you
don't, I can mail out copies. You'll also need lcs-cvt, as in
ftp.rodents-montreal.org:/mouse/local/src/lcs-cvt/, or a little hand
tweaking.)
There are a couple of tricks that might be useful. both only work for
circuits contianing linear impedances, like resisotrs, not non-linear
things like semiconductors :
The first is very useful if you are solving crertian problems by hand.
It's called the cuperpostion principle. It goes like this. Pick a
resistor in the circuit (whichever one you are interested in). Now, short
out all the power sources in the circuit aaprt from one. Calcualte the
current through the resistor in the modified circuit. Now repeat
'unshorting' each power source in turn. Add up all the currents (take
account of direction, of course). The resulting current is the current
thriough the resistor in the complete circuit (all power sources on).
this is a very quick way to solve the typical 2-battery, 3-reisostr 'T'
circuit
The second method is much more general. Firstly, you work in terms of
admittance, which is 1/impedance. The point being that admitances in
parallel add.
Now, if you haev an addmitance Y(i,j) between points i and j in the
circuit, then the currnet throuigh it is, of course, Y(i,j)*(v(i)-V(j)).
That is equivalent to taking that current from node i and feeding the
same current into node j. You can now neatly represent that equitaion as
part of an n*n matrix equation (where n is the total number of nodes) --
there's a matrix (n*n) containing the admitances suitableed added and
subtracted multiplying a vector of the voltages at the nodes. This, of
course equals the resdultant current flowing into or otu of each node,
again a vector. Noramlly this will eb zero, but power sources are
replaced by current sources, which contribute a current into or out of
the notdes to which they are conencted.
Now, if that matrix is non-singular, you simply invert it, multiply the
cvector of courrent sources by it, and you get the voltages at all the
nodes of the circuit. The problem is the matrix is _always_ singular.
This represents the physical fact that there are no absolute voltages,
only differneces. No matter, simply take a note (say node 0) to be
ground, and delete the appropriate row an column from the matrix, the
element from the currnet and voltage vectors. The resulting matrix is
non-singular, invert, etc...
On the other hand, I am a lot more mathmeatically
inclined than 90%
(or more) of the populatiion. It worries me -- a lot -- that none of
the neighbours here had any idea what 'e' was (base of natural
logarithms, not the elctronic chaerge), for example.
I once was at work when someone walked in wearing a T-shirt which said
"SPEED LIMIT" with a formula, 4 pi h-bar / 137 mu_0 e^2 is perhaps clear enough as a text form of it. I said "h-bar
is Planck's constant,
Hmm.. I thought h-bar was conventionally plancks constant _divided by 2pi_
137 is the fine structure constant, mu-zero is the
permittivity of free
space, but what's e?" - because I was pretty sure e didn't represent
antilog(1) there.
My first guess would have bene the electronic charge. On second thoughts,
permitivity?
He said, "You're the first person to have gotten as far as `h-bar is
Planck's constant'.". (e turned out to be a constant which depends on
the material in the vicinity - the expression gives the local speed of
light, as opposed to the vacuum speed.)
That does sound like perimitivity. But why mu_0, and not mu, then? OK,
mu_r (relative permiablitly) is very close to 1 for non-magnetic
materials, the variation in the speed of light is due to the perimitvity
change mostly, but...
-tony
6:05 p.m.
[...]. This represents the physical fact that there
are no absolute
voltages, only differneces.
That's actually not quite true. There is an absolute voltage reference
in the form of electrical neutrality, with objects with an electron
deficit being positive to it and objects with an electron excess being
negative to it.
However, for voltage magnitudes likely to be encountered outside an
electrostatics setup, absolute neutrality is hard enough to identify,
and deviations from it so small, that your statement is an excellent
approximation, certainly good enough for practical purposes. :-)
No matter, simply take a note (say node 0) to be
ground, and delete
the appropriate row an column from the matrix, the element from the
currnet and voltage vectors. The resulting matrix is non-singular,
invert, etc...
The resulting matrix _may be_ non-singular. There are two ways it can
be singular: if there is a dead short between any two voltage nodes, in
which case any attempt to solve the matrix will result in division by
zero at some point, or if there is a part of the circuit with no
connection to any voltage nodes, in which case all voltages in that
portion are indeterminate.
I ran into those conditions when building my resistor-blob solving
program - that's why I'm aware of them. :)
I once was at
work when someone walked in wearing a T-shirt which
said "SPEED LIMIT" with a formula, 4 pi h-bar / 137 mu_0 e^2
I asusme
that evaluates to c. I said
"h-bar is Planck's constant,
Hmm.. I thought h-bar was conventionally
plancks constant _divided by
2pi_ [...]. But why mu_0, and not mu, then?
I'm not sure. I am and was not physicist enough to really understand,
nor explain, the formula. I discussed it briefly with him, but not in
enough detail to cover things like that.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
27 Sep
27 Sep
11:33 a.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:37:05 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
'You play sport _for fun_????'
Well. I
am a runner. I enjoy running through the palatinate woods for
some 10 km to 15 km about three times a week. Before I got health
trouble with my back, I used to run 20 km to 30 km. Just for fun.
Just because I can. Unfortunately I never had the chance to run a
marathon, but was able to do it. Somthing that I never expected to
happen.
Though, I don't like sorts that involve balls and the like.
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
26 Sep
26 Sep
12:45 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 02:37 PM, Stefan Skoglund wrote:
You live in UPPSALA DONT YOU ??
I sure do.
I have collegues in Upsala (ULJ) and most of us occasionally gets
asked :
Nice, I and my friends try to go at least once a year, I missed out this
year though. Surely you must know Roland? I had him as a lecturer.
Do you play soccer in "Korpen" ?? Maniacs
(Korpen-players is not always
the kindest types of soccer-players.)
I try to avoid organized sports. I used to do some rock climbing but not
much these days.
Regards,
Pontus.
9:48 a.m.
On 09/26/2012 02:05 AM, Pontus wrote:
I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether or not I
will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social
signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it", they're
not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
<tom_a_sparks at yahoo.com.au> wrote:
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I do for a hobby 'cause
of this. What strange remark have you had about your
collection?
"Why?"
It's no so much the word as the tone :)
12:47 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 06:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/26/2012 02:05 AM, Pontus wrote:
A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to
endure you mothers friends..
/P
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people
what I do for a hobby 'cause
of this.
I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether
or not I
will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social
signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it",
they're
not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore.
2:33 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 03:47 PM, Pontus wrote:
A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to
endure you mothers friends..
No I don't. ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I
do for a hobby 'cause
of this.
I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether
or not I
will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social
signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it",
they're
not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore.
2:33 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 03:47 PM, Pontus wrote:
A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to
endure you mothers friends..
...besides, most of her friends are people she knows from online! ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what I
do for a hobby 'cause
of this.
I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether
or not I
will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social
signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it",
they're
not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore.
3:42 p.m.
At 9:47 PM +0200 9/26/12, Pontus wrote:
On 09/26/2012 06:48 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
You might find this gets better as you get older. In recent years,
I've found them to be a great source of highly interesting old free
stuff, both computer related and photographic. Of course it helps
that in the case of classic computers a lot of my Mom's friends are
highly motivated to preserve history.
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
On 09/26/2012 02:05 AM, Pontus wrote:
A very effective litmus test I must say. But sometimes you have to
endure you mothers friends.. ugh.. yes.. I don't bother to tell people what
I do for a hobby 'cause
of this.
I use that as a sort of "litmus test" to determine whether or
not I
will have any further contact with that person. It keeps the social
signal/noise ratio nice and high. If someone doesn't "get it", they're
not worth my time and I don't bother with them anymore.
12:36 a.m.
I have part of my collection in a garagebox that opens to the street,
prompting the following from a ~15-year old boy:
"My family is in the scrapping business, we can haul all that away for you
and it won't cost you a dime."
My explanation was met with incredulous looks. The next day he was back:
"We have some old bicycles, for 50 euros each. I assume you collect those as
well."
At which point I lost confidence in his ability to think logically.
Camiel
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Tom Sparks
Sent: woensdag 26 september 2012 7:27
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: strange remark about your collection?
What strange remark have you had about your collection?
here is mine:
I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup with disk/CDs, books, magazines
around them a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the
A1200 came in
the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?"
---
tom_a_sparks "It's a nerdy thing I like to do"
Please use ISO approved file formats excluding Office Open XML -
http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/no-word-attachments.html
Ubuntu wiki page https://wiki.ubuntu.com/tomsparks
3 x (x)Ubuntu 10.04, Amiga A1200 WB 3.1, UAE AF 2006 Premium Edition, AF
2012 Plus Edition, Sam440 AOS 4.1.2, Roland DXY-1300 pen plotter, Cutok
DC330 cutter/pen plotter
Wanted: RiscOS system, GEOS system (C64/C128), Atari ST, Apple Macintosh
(6502/68k/PPC only)?
7:40 a.m.
At 10:27 PM -0700 9/25/12, Tom Sparks wrote:
What strange remark have you had about your
collection?
here is mine:
I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup
with disk/CDs, books, magazines around them
a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the A1200 came in
the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?"
Personally I think a strange remark is one I got recently at work...
Oh, COOL!!!
And it wasn't from just one person... That made it even more frightening!!!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
9:06 a.m.
On 9/26/12 12:27 AM, Tom Sparks wrote:
What strange remark have you had about your
collection?
here is mine:
I had my amiga A500 and amiga A1200 setup
with disk/CDs, books, magazines around them
a front cover of a box standing up behind the A1200 that the A1200 came in
the remake from my relative was "you collect keyboards?"
Probably not unusual, but my favorite (and this wasn't even a
particularly large system - a PDP11/84 with RX02s, a TSZ07, and an RA60,
so 2 short racks):
"All that's ONE computer???"
Doc
9:26 a.m.
"Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife
although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second.
10:17 a.m.
I know. Does anyone have a spare so I can prove my point? ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:34:29
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 2012-09-26, at 12:26 PM, Sam O'nella <barythrin at gmail.com> wrote:
"Computers don't belong in the kitchen"
- wife
although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second.
She forgets the Honeywell Kitchen Computer!
--------
Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP
10:50 a.m.
What about calling it "computer salad" ?that's gotta be a classic...
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
From: barythrin at gmail.com
Date: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 17:17:01 +0000
I know. Does anyone have a spare so I can prove my point? ;-)
-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Anderson <wackyvorlon at me.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Wed, 26 Sep 2012 12:34:29
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 2012-09-26, at 12:26 PM, Sam O'nella <barythrin at gmail.com> wrote:
"Computers don't belong in the
kitchen" - wife
although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second.
She forgets the Honeywell Kitchen Computer!
--------
Paul Anderson -- VE3HOP
10:03 a.m.
"Does Homeland Security know about this?"
"Why don't you just get an internet account, like a normal person?"
"How come there are NO Coleco Adams?"
"Will you buy my old Dell?"
"I collect WAFFLES; I have a whole trunkful in the attic" (references an
ancient vaudeville joke)
9:52 a.m.
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Sam O'nella <barythrin at gmail.com> wrote:
"Computers don't belong in the kitchen"
- wife
although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second.
what is this "wife" thing?
I never had enough spare space to let one in
Dave Caroline
10:29 a.m.
On 26 September 2012 17:52, Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Sam O'nella
<barythrin at gmail.com> wrote:
My wife threatened to rectally insert the next computer that my friend
(who gave me an Apple //+) gives me. I'm not sure who she meant, me
or him.
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"I'd like to hold off judgement on a thing like that, sir, until all
the facts are in. "
General "Buck" Turgidson
"Computers don't belong in the
kitchen" - wife
although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second.
what is this "wife" thing?
I never had enough spare space to let one in 
10:08 a.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote:
"Computers don't belong in the kitchen"
- wife
although "I want this thing out of the living room!" is a close second.
Closely followed by, "Are you done with the Apple IIc on the dining
room table?"
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
10:54 a.m.
On 26 Sep 2012 at 10:16, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote:
I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few
computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics
to your microwave oven? (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers,
even refrigerators seem to have them nowadays). I've thought it
notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them.
--Chuck
"Computers don't belong in the
kitchen" - wife
Honeywell Kitchen Computer?
11:54 a.m.
________________________________
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few
computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics
to your microwave oven?? (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers,
even refrigerators? seem to have them nowadays).
?C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first around 1980.
?I've thought it
notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them.
C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics.
12:48 p.m.
Chris Tofu wrote:
C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We
got our first around 1980.
Actually the early microwave ovens had mechanical timers.
When they started having electronic timers, they were hardwired ASICs,
which don't meet any reasonable definition of "computer". They didn't
have any ALU, memory, or stored program.
Somewhat later they started using single-chip microprocessors similar to
the TI TMS1000 series.
2:36 p.m.
From: Eric Smith <eric at brouhaha.com>
? C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We
got our first around 1980.
Actually the early microwave ovens had mechanical timers.
When they started having electronic timers, they were hardwired ASICs, which don't
meet any reasonable definition of "computer". They didn't have any ALU,
memory, or stored program.
Somewhat later they started using single-chip microprocessors similar to the TI TMS1000
series.
C: Perhaps I stand to be corrected about our model. It did have nixie tubes. We only
tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to try a controversial method of melting
metals (brass, etc.) as it was rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused.
7:53 p.m.
On 26 Sep 2012 at 14:36, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: Perhaps I stand to be corrected about our model. It
did have nixie
tubes. We only tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to
try a controversial method of melting metals (brass, etc.) as it was
rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused.
1980? Models since the 70's had large red LED displays.
--Chuck
27 Sep
27 Sep
8:31 a.m.
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
On 26 Sep 2012 at 14:36, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: Perhaps I stand to be corrected about our model. It
did have nixie
tubes. We only tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to
try a controversial method of melting metals (brass, etc.) as it was
rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused.
1980?? Models since the 70's had large red LED displays.
C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie tubes I should
ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green display also. Pretty sure that
had them also.
?And incidentally when I referred to the *first* uwave ovens, I was referring to consumer
models. The ones you spoke of dating back to the 60s probably weren't available or
practical for home use. But I could stand to be corrected. No one I know of had one much
before 1980.
9:13 a.m.
On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
I've never seen green Nixie tubes. Are you talking about the VFDs
which were fairly popular for VCR/stereo displays, kind of bluish
green? They're vacuum displays of a sort, but I don't know if I'd
call them Nixies.
- Dave
C: Perhaps I
stand to be corrected about our model. It did have nixie
tubes. We only tossed it a couple back. I held onto it intending to
try a controversial method of melting metals (brass, etc.) as it was
rated for 1000 watts and was virtually unused.
1980? Models since the 70's had large red LED displays.
C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie tubes I
should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green display also. Pretty sure
that had them also.
10:17 a.m.
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
?
I've never seen green Nixie tubes.? Are you talking about the VFDs
which were fairly popular for VCR/stereo displays, kind of bluish
green?? They're vacuum displays of a sort, but I don't know if I'd
call them Nixies.
C: I call them potatoes. You call them pototoes. Oi whatever.
11:32 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 12:13 PM, David Riley wrote:
I wouldn't, because they're not. ;) Plain and simple.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
C: About then.
This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?). I used
to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green display also. Pretty sure that had them also.
I've never seen green Nixie tubes. Are you talking about the VFDs
which were fairly popular for VCR/stereo displays, kind of bluish
green? They're vacuum displays of a sort, but I don't know if I'd
call them Nixies.
9:26 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 08:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
1980? Models since the 70's had large red LED
displays. C: About
then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green displays nixie
tubes I should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a
green display also. Pretty sure that had them also. And incidentally
when I referred to the *first* uwave ovens, I was referring to
consumer models. The ones you spoke of dating back to the 60s probably
weren't available or practical for home use. But I could stand to be
corrected. No one I know of had one much before 1980.
This sounds more like a VFD rather than Nixie--(almost) all of the
Nixies I've ever seen have been neon orange. Up until very recently,
VFDs could been seen on credit card terminals.
--Chuck
11:29 a.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/27/2012 11:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all
green displays
nixie tubes I should ask?).
*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes are neon (and not
"GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents with
green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:47 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
> Chris Tofu wrote:
> C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all green
displays
> nixie tubes I should ask?).
And Dave McGuire responded:
*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes
are neon (and not
"GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents
with
green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent.
Nixie tubes are also not segmented. They have fully-formed digits
stacked one atop the other. Nixie tube displays have "depth" to the
digits.
There are displays with a similar color to Nixie (orange), but use
segments to render the digits. These are either individual tube-type
gas-discharge displays (which are very frequently misidentified as Nixie
tubes, because they look like a "tube"), or planar-style displays like
the Burroughs Panaplex. These displays are most definitely not Nixie.
There is a pretty rare type of Nixie-like called a Pandicon that is one
tube with multiple digits worth of fully-formed digits inside it.
Technically, it's not a Nixie tube, but visually, the display it
generates looks just like individual Nixie tubes (unless you look
closely through the filter).
Rick Bensene
The Old Calculator Museum
http://oldcalculatormuseum
1:01 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
[...] (are all
green displays nixie tubes I should ask?).
*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes.
Green displays are either incandescents with green
filters, or more
likely vacuum-fluorescent.
Or LEDs, though I would tend to assume LEDs would be easily identified
as such (eg, by lack of a glass envelope).
Mouse
3:26 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/27/2012 04:01 PM, Mouse wrote:
Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie".
But for the more genericized meaning, I can't see any reason a similar
device couldn't be made and filled with a different gas mixture so as
to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. (It might require some
circuit redesign, as I suspect it means using higher voltages....)
Except that that's not at all how VFDs work. I think "Nixie" and
"nixie" are similar to "Kleenex" and "kleenex", but maybe
not quite THAT
similar. These other devices have proper names, and their differences
are more than superficial.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
[...] (are all green displays nixie tubes I should
ask?).
*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes.
7:54 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes.
But for
the more genericized meaning [of "Nixie"], I can't see any
reason a similar device couldn't be made and filled with a different
gas mixture so as to produce a green instead of red/orange glow.
8:58 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/27/2012 10:54 PM, Mouse wrote:
Except that
that's not at all how VFDs work.
No, of course not.
I wasn't trying to suggest that it was likely the original device
worked this way; I feel moderately sure it's vacuum fluorescent. I was
taking issue with the dogmatic statement that "*NO* green displays are
Nixie tubes". I don't know of any, but I see no reason it couldn't be
done and, since there's a plausible way to do it, I am not nearly as
confident as you are that it's never been done.
That's nice.
(why are we even talking about this?)
[cracks knuckles]
Yes, one can put a green filter over a Nixie tube. Then you'd
have...surprise! A Nixie tube with a green filter, not a "green Nixie
tube".
"Nixie" is a trademarked name, owned originally by Burroughs, for an
orange neon display tube with fully-formed metal digits as cathodes.
That's the definition of "Nixie tube". You may try to rewrite history
if you like, by talking about such madness as re-filling Nixie tubes
with some gas other than neon and then there'd be Nixie tubes that don't
glow orange, but that would be...well, madness...and it doesn't change
the damn definition of "Nixie tube".
But I forgot, this is classiccmp, where a fact isn't a fact unless
it's printed in a book. But wait! I have a STACK OF BOOKS that talk
about Nixie tubes and present these facts. You may come here and peruse
them if you like, but this is where it ends for me, because this is a
waste of time...I know what a damn Nixie tube is, and I really don't
care if you unilaterally decide to redefine the term because you don't
know any better.
Kee-HRIST.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
*NO* green
displays are Nixie tubes.
But for the more genericized meaning [of
"Nixie"], I can't see any
reason a similar device couldn't be made and filled with a different
gas mixture so as to produce a green instead of red/orange glow.
28 Sep
28 Sep
12:02 a.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
"Nixie" is a trademarked name, [...].
Oh, get off your high horse. I know that. I even allowed for it, and,
for that definition, I agree - and agreed. In the quotes you posted:
>>>> *NO* green displays are Nixie tubes.
>>> But for the more genericized meaning [of "Nixie"], [...]
The latter line was my compaction of my original. Here's the original
it's a compaction of:
Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of
"Nixie".
But for the more genericized meaning, [...]
I think recognizing that trademarks get genericized in informal use
hardly counts as the "rewrit[ing] history" you seem to want to cast it
as. Even if you think it's happened to "Nixie" less than I do.
Nor do I think it fair to cast me as doing that "because [I] don't know
any better" when, if you would bother to read the text I wrote upthread
(and that you even quoted), it would have been obvious that I was aware
that Nixie was once (and may still be) a trademark and that I was
agreeing with you for the strict trademark definition.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
12:11 a.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
*plonk*
On 09/28/2012 03:02 AM, Mouse wrote:
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
"Nixie" is a trademarked name, [...].
Oh, get off your high horse. I know that. I even allowed for it, and,
for that definition, I agree - and agreed. In the quotes you posted:
>>>> *NO* green displays are Nixie
tubes.
>>> But for the more genericized meaning [of "Nixie"], [...]
The latter line was my compaction of my original. Here's the original
it's a compaction of:
Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of
"Nixie".
But for the more genericized meaning, [...]
I think recognizing that trademarks get genericized in informal use
hardly counts as the "rewrit[ing] history" you seem to want to cast it
as. Even if you think it's happened to "Nixie" less than I do.
Nor do I think it fair to cast me as doing that "because [I] don't know
any better" when, if you would bother to read the text I wrote upthread
(and that you even quoted), it would have been obvious that I was aware
that Nixie was once (and may still be) a trademark and that I was
agreeing with you for the strict trademark definition.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:15 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
Yes, one can put a green filter over a Nixie tube.
Then you'd
have...surprise! A Nixie tube with a green filter, not a "green Nixie
tube".
Some nixie tubes (small 'n', I ahve no idea who made them) had an orange
envelope, preu=suambly to increase contrast. IIRC there is a green line
in the neon spectrum, but it is weak. I guess you could try filtering out
everything else and make a very dim green nixie tube that way.
-tony
27 Sep
27 Sep
4:30 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
From: mouse at rodents-montreal.org
Well, if you mean the trademark meaning of "Nixie".
But for the more genericized meaning, I can't see any reason a similar
device couldn't be made and filled with a different gas mixture so as
to produce a green instead of red/orange glow. (It might require some
circuit redesign, as I suspect it means using higher voltages....)
I've never seen one, though. While that doesn't prove much, I've never
even heard of one, either, so they can't be all that common.
Hi If you think the name nixie is misused, try a search on ebay for neon
lights.It is easily a 1000:1 of finding anything close to neon or argon even.Dwight
[...]
(are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?).
*NO* green displays are Nixie
tubes. Green displays are either incandescents with
green filters, or more
likely vacuum-fluorescent.
Or LEDs, though I would tend to assume LEDs would be easily identified
as such (eg, by lack of a glass envelope).
Mouse
28 Sep
28 Sep
12:44 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
[...]
(are all green displays nixie tubes I should ask?).
*NO* green displays are Nixie
tubes.
I've never seen one, though. While that doesn't prove much, I've never
even heard of one, either, so they can't be all that common.
Jsut to make thing difficult, I'ev seen an incandescent 7 degment display
(each segment being a filament) in a flat package with no obvious
exhaustion tube/seal.It looked a lot like an LED display package.
-tony
Green displays are either incandescents with
green filters, or more
likely vacuum-fluorescent.
Or LEDs, though I would tend to assume LEDs would be easily identified
as such (eg, by lack of a glass envelope).
2:23 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/28/2012 12:44 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Indeed. And _I_ would call that a 'nixie' tube
(generic use), but not a
'Nixie' tube (trademark use) :-)
One of the oddities of Chinese technical language seems to be the use of
the term "Nixie tube" for any seven-segment display. There are a couple
of Chinese patents that use this terminology and they involve LEDs.
Probably similar to the British referring to any vacuum cleaner as a
"hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not
synonymous with vacuum cleaner and can refer to the appliance, the
president of that name or the dam on the lower Colorado river.
In particular, my copy of "De Re Metallica" is an English translation by
Lou and Herbert Hoover.
--Chuck
29 Sep
29 Sep
12:45 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
One of the oddities of Chinese technical language
seems to be the use of
the term "Nixie tube" for any seven-segment display. There are a couple
of Chinese patents that use this terminology and they involve LEDs.
Eek!. COnsidering the true Nixie tubes were not segemneted, that seems a
vey odd usage.
Probably similar to the British referring to any vacuum cleaner as a
"hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not
Ture. But at least the Hoover company did make vacuum cleaners (or
'Electric Suction Sweepers' :-)), and genuine Hoover-brand oens were, and
still are common.
I can understand usign the term 'nixie tube' as a generic name for a
formed-chracter (not segmented) gas discharge display, even if it wasn't
made by Boroughs. But not using the term ofr other types of gas discharge
display (e.g Panaplex), LEDs, VF displays, etc.
-tony
1:46 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
> Probably similar to the British referring to any
vacuum cleaner as a
> "hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not
In some parts of the USA, "Hoover" was used to refer to JEdger, and meant
unlawful guvmint surveillance
2:36 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/29/2012 01:46 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
In some parts of the USA, "Hoover" was used
to refer to JEdger, and meant
unlawful guvmint surveillance
According to some, in other parts of the US, he was known as "Mary" .
--Chuck
2:11 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 9/29/2012 12:45 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
The extent of my exposure to the UK domestic side these days are
via the
BBC series here
on cable. One of them is Law and Order UK, an excellent adaptation of
the US series.
Anyway on one recent episode I did notice what appeared to be a shiny
new stainless finish
Hoover Oven or Microwave, and did wonder what else they had badged with
the Hoover brand
since here in the US it is pretty much vacuum cleaners. I couldn't see
any other appliances
in the scene, but they did have a very good closeup of the one
appliance. Over here you see
many different brands of things around houses from German, Korean, US
and many others.
>Probably
similar to the British referring to any vacuum cleaner as a
>"hoover" and even verbing the word. In the US, "Hoover" is not
Ture. But at least the Hoover company did make vacuum cleaners (or
'Electric Suction Sweepers' :-)), and genuine Hoover-brand oens were, and
still are common.
12 Oct
12 Oct
2:16 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
[Sorry for being net.silent for a couple of weeks. It was nothing wrong
with me or my machines. No,my ISP managed to break their PPP deamon and
then take about 10 days to investigate it]
Hoover Oven or Microwave, and did wonder what else
they had badged with
the Hoover brand
They certainly made washing machines at one point. And I suspect tumble
dryers. Oh, and clothes irons.
I've not seen any Hoobver brand ovens here, but then I don't exactly go
looking for such things ;-)
since here in the US it is pretty much vacuum
cleaners. I couldn't see
any other appliances
in the scene, but they did have a very good closeup of the one
appliance. Over here you see
many different brands of things around houses from German, Korean, US
and many others.
Same here. The better brands of large appliances tend to be German, but
small things 9kettles, irons, etc) can come from just about anywhere.
-tony
27 Sep
27 Sep
1:47 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/27/2012 11:29 AM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/27/2012 11:31 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
I was a bit more cautious in my response, knowing full well that there
are phosphor-modified neon lamps in common use.
So, indeed there are neon Nixie-type gizmos in existence in varying
colors.
http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=1073
Scroll down to the Melz ITS1A photo.
--Chuck
C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes
(are all green displays
nixie tubes I should ask?).
*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes are neon (and not
"GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents with
green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent.
6:18 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Sep 27, 2012, at 4:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I was a bit more cautious in my response, knowing full
well that there are phosphor-modified neon lamps in common use.
So, indeed there are neon Nixie-type gizmos in existence in varying colors.
http://www.decadecounter.com/vta/articleview.php?item=1073
Scroll down to the Melz ITS1A photo.
I suppose that to me, a Nixie-type tube should be directly lit
(i.e., using the neon as illumination rather than a phosphor).
Nonetheless, that's a pretty neat tube, if perhaps overwrought.
- Dave
2:45 p.m.
New subject: misidentification of Nixie tubes, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Sep 27, 2012 2:39 PM, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
*NO* green displays are Nixie tubes. Nixie tubes are neon (and not
"GreeNe") and are orange. Green displays are either incandescents with
green filters, or more likely vacuum-fluorescent.
This is a major problem on ebay. Sellers have learned that Nixies get the
dollars, so anything remotely old looking is now a Nixie. Spams up my
searches, it does!
1:29 p.m.
C: About then. This one had green nixie tubes (are all
green displays nixie=
tubes I should ask?). I used to have a Radio Shack calculator w/a green di=
No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have
to contain I wonder?)
Most green displays are vacuum fluorescent (VF) units. The design is
electrically a triode valve wit ha fluorexcent anode. Note that soem VF
displays had other coloured segments or annucaitors too -- A red 'error'
annuciator, for example.
Green LED displays exist, but are not common. Even less common are 7
segment LED displays with a red and a green LED for each segmetn allowing
mutlicolour operation. They exist though. I've nver seen an RGB 7 segment
LED display.
LCDs can, I guess be backlit in any colour :-)
-tony
5:07 p.m.
On 09/27/2012 04:29 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
Green LED displays exist, but are not common. Even
less common are 7
segment LED displays with a red and a green LED for each segmetn allowing
mutlicolour operation. They exist though. I've nver seen an RGB 7 segment
LED display.
Green LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking
specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
28 Sep
28 Sep
1:02 p.m.
Green LED displays are quite common here. We were
speaking
specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought)
Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of
consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3
things tht used them.
-tony
1:45 p.m.
On 09/28/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in
consumer electronics here, as well as electronic test equipment like HP
signal generators, etc.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Green LED
displays are quite common here. We were speaking
specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought)
Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of
consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3
things tht used them.
29 Sep
29 Sep
12:34 p.m.
On 09/28/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in
I am suprised, given that most consumer devices come from companies that
sell worldwide, adn wil lre-use modules/designs wherever psosible.
Sonsumre devices here often have VF displays (which are often blue-green,
althoguth I have seen one (on a Philips unit?_) that was almost the same
colour as a green LED, and could easily be confused with it [1])) Red LED
displays are common too, as are LCDs backlit in various ways.
[1] I can tell the difference. I've been inside the device too, and I
have the service manaul. No way is it an LED.
-tony
Green
LED displays are quite common here. We were speaking
specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought)
Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of
consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3
things tht used them.
1:28 p.m.
On 09/29/2012 03:34 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in
I am suprised, given that most consumer devices come from companies that
sell worldwide, adn wil lre-use modules/designs wherever psosible.
Sonsumre devices here often have VF displays (which are often blue-green,
althoguth I have seen one (on a Philips unit?_) that was almost the same
colour as a green LED, and could easily be confused with it [1])) Red LED
displays are common too, as are LCDs backlit in various ways.
[1] I can tell the difference. I've been inside the device too, and I
have the service manaul. No way is it an LED.
The HP 8657A signal generator comes to mind. Also, my microwave
oven's clock is green LED. My bedside clock at home is as well.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Green LED
displays are quite common here. We were speaking
specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought)
Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of
consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3
things tht used them. 
5 Oct
5 Oct
5:57 p.m.
On 09/28/2012 03:45 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/28/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I think that might be a US/UK thing. They are all over the place in
consumer electronics here, as well as electronic test equipment like HP
signal generators, etc.
[playing catch-up on this thread]
I think that's probably true - I do seem to see rather a lot of green 7-seg
LED displays in the US, but red did seem more common in the UK. Quite why
that would be the case though, I'm not sure.
I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber ones in the [UK] junk box which
will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs that they
were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps.
I picked up an 80's-vintage Royal calculator from a junk store the other
day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in
it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff...
cheers
Jules
Green LED
displays are quite common here. We were speaking
specifically of display *tubes* though. (or so I thought)
Well, they;'re listed in most of the catalogues, sure. But in terms of
consumer devices, they are not commonly used. I've seen perhaps 2 or 3
things tht used them.
7:12 p.m.
On 10/05/2012 08:57 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber
ones in the [UK] junk box
which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs
that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps.
Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE
those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some,
you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's
just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays.
I picked up an 80's-vintage Royal calculator from
a junk store the other
day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in
it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff...
Me too. :-) They are easy to drive, too.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
7:26 p.m.
On 10/5/2012 7:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/05/2012 08:57 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
Like this? :) http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/babcock.jpg
Those digits are about 4" high, and the panels are made by Babcock (two
panels w/4 digits each), but the numerals look a lot like the smaller
Panaplex displays I have in an old Heathkit digital clock. They came out
of an old industrial display of some sort, I interfaced an AVR
microcontroller to the logic / power board they came attached to and
made a nice clock out of 'em...
- Josh
I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge
amber ones in the [UK] junk box
which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs
that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps.
Ohhhhh,
Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE
those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some,
you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's
just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays.
8:11 p.m.
On 10/05/2012 10:26 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Like this? :) http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/babcock.jpg
Those digits are about 4" high, and the panels are made by Babcock (two
panels w/4 digits each), but the numerals look a lot like the smaller
Panaplex displays I have in an old Heathkit digital clock. They came out
of an old industrial display of some sort, I interfaced an AVR
microcontroller to the logic / power board they came attached to and
made a nice clock out of 'em...
Yes!! Very VERY nice!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber
ones in the [UK] junk box
which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs
that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps.
Ohhhhh,
Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE
those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some,
you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's
just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays. 
9:58 p.m.
New subject: 7 segment gas-discharge/neon displays / was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 2012 Oct 5, at 8:11 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 10/05/2012 10:26 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
Like this? :) http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/displays/babcock.jpg
Those digits are about 4" high, and the panels are made by Babcock
(two
panels w/4 digits each), but the numerals look a lot like the smaller
Panaplex displays I have in an old Heathkit digital clock. They
came out
of an old industrial display of some sort, I interfaced an AVR
microcontroller to the logic / power board they came attached to and
made a nice clock out of 'em...
Yes!! Very VERY nice!
To elaborate, there were several manufacturers and models of 7-
segment gas-discharge displays, they weren't all Panaplex:
- Burroughs Panaplex (original/Panaplex I)
Multiple digits per module, typically 8-13 digits for
use in calculators
Anodes are a metal grid between the viewing glass and
the segment cathodes.
Early-70s, not very common, superseded by Panaplex II.
- Burroughs Panaplex II:
Anodes are transparent conductive sputtering on the
viewing glass.
Far more prevalent than Panaplex I.
Mid-70s, quite common.
- Beckman: typically just 2 or 3 digits per envelope, used more in
instruments and the like,
such as clocks where 2-digit modules could be spaced for
the H M S.
IIRC, the Heathkit clock and so on used Beckman modules.
Mid-70s, fairly common.
- assorted Japanese types:
typically multi-digit modules for use in calculators.
Early-mid-70s, not common.
Around the late 60's, before the above multi-digit modules, there
were some single-digit tubes made. In a tube envelope just like
common nixies, but a 7-segment display instead of the nixie 1-of-10
formed numerals.
They were all subject to 'burning out', particularly the types with
the anodes sputtered on the glass, TMO the lifetimes were shorter
than nixies.
I think the last common use for them was in retail gas pumps, where
they were used from the mid-late-70s till when? - mid-90s or so? My
guess is these were Beckman types.
I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge amber
ones in the [UK] junk
box
which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the
PCBs
that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps.
Ohhhhh,
Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE
those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have
some,
you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even
if it's
just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays.
6 Oct
6 Oct
9:38 a.m.
New subject: 7 segment gas-discharge/neon displays / was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 10/05/2012 11:58 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
- Beckman: typically just 2 or 3 digits per envelope,
used more in
instruments and the like,
such as clocks where 2-digit modules could be spaced for the H M S.
IIRC, the Heathkit clock and so on used Beckman modules.
Mid-70s, fairly common.
Aha, that triggered a memory - those are the ones that I have in storage
overseas, not Burroughs.
I think the last common use for them was in retail gas
pumps, where they
were used from the mid-late-70s till when? - mid-90s or so? My guess is
these were Beckman types.
That seems to tie in with the suspected source of mine, then (although mine
are in the UK, but no reason to assume that they didn't use similar
technology).
I'm surprised that they lasted into the 90s, though.
cheers
Jules
9:31 a.m.
On 10/05/2012 09:12 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
To be honest, I've not looked into it for the green-blue ones. Hacking some
drive/control electronics for the Panaplexes wasn't hard though, so I
assume the green-blue type aren't much different.
There's an elderly betamax VCR in the same store which keeps tempting me,
as that looks to have a similar type of display (probably with custom
VCR-related bits of course, but I could always mask those off behind a
bezel and just expose the numeric part).
cheers
Jules
On 10/05/2012 08:57 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
Yes, those are the ones. I think all the ones I had were double-digit ones,
and I had a couple of sizes (from memory - as it's been a few years since I
last saw them - some were 1" high and others around 3/4").
I'm guessing I had around fifteen of them, but not all of them were still
functional - and at least in one case the glass faceplate simply fell off,
which maybe suggests that they're not very well bonded and/or the bonding
material is deteriorating over time :-(
I've got some nice ol' gas-discharge
amber ones in the [UK] junk box
which will get here to me one day - from what I remember of the PCBs
that they were mounted on, they originally came from fuel pumps.
Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon displays? I LOVE
those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you
have some,
you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's
just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays.
It's a shame that there's not much else beyond a clock that lends itself
well to using just a small number of 'cute' displays - ideas on a postcard...
What would be pretty cool would be a Sudoku grid formed with some cool ol'
display technology, but as you say these kinds of things seem to sell for
not insignificant sums these days.
I picked up an
80's-vintage Royal calculator from a junk store the other
day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in
it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff...
Me too. :-) They are easy to drive, too.
7 Oct
7 Oct
1:10 p.m.
New subject: nice displays, was Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 10/06/2012 12:31 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
To be honest, I've not looked into it for the green-blue ones. Hacking
some drive/control electronics for the Panaplexes wasn't hard though, so
I assume the green-blue type aren't much different.
They're much easier. The ones I've used need 20-30VDC for segment drive.
It's a shame that there's not much else beyond
a clock that lends itself
well to using just a small number of 'cute' displays - ideas on a
postcard...
Well there are sorta-related things. Thermometer, barometer,
hygrometer...all very easy to do these days if you know a bit of
electronics, and of value even to disinterested and as-yet-unflushed
spouses.
What would be pretty cool would be a Sudoku grid
formed with some cool
ol' display technology, but as you say these kinds of things seem to
sell for not insignificant sums these days.
Yeah.
I picked up an 80's-vintage Royal calculator from
a junk store the other
day, just because of the nice green-blue VF 7-seg display that it had in
it. I'm a sucker for that kind of stuff...
Me too. :-) They are easy to drive, too. There's an elderly betamax VCR in the same store
which keeps tempting
me, as that looks to have a similar type of display (probably with
custom VCR-related bits of course, but I could always mask those off
behind a bezel and just expose the numeric part).
Eh. "General use" VFDs are everywhere, and still made new of course.
There are some really nice Russian ones that I've played with, the
IV-17, readily available cheap (new!) on eBay. Leads, not pins. See:
http://www.neurotica.com/misc/multiseg-vfd.jpg
http://www.neurotica.com/misc/multiseg-vfd-powered.jpg
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
13 Oct
13 Oct
2:23 p.m.
It's a shame that there's not much else beyond
a clock that lends itself
well to using just a small number of 'cute' displays - ideas on a postcard...
numeric-only calcualtor?
Me too. :-)
They are easy to drive, too.
To be honest, I've not looked into it for the green-blue ones. Hacking some
drive/control electronics for the Panaplexes wasn't hard though, so I
assume the green-blue type aren't much different.
There's an elderly betamax VCR in the same store which keeps tempting me,
as that looks to have a similar type of display (probably with custom
VCR-related bits of course, but I could always mask those off behind a
bezel and just expose the numeric part).
Most VCRs did, indeed, use VF displays. It apperas some DVD recorders
still do (!).
-tony
2:07 p.m.
Ohhhhh, Panaplex? Basically seven-segment neon
displays? I LOVE
those. Unfortunately they tend to go for big bucks. If you have some,
you are morally obligated to do something cool with them! Even if it's
just yet another clock...they're beautiful displays.
I have a few in devices designed ot use them : HP9815 calculator (16
digit Panaplex), Sumlock Compucorp 324 calculator (ditto) and HP59304
'remote display' (12 digit Panaplex). The last takes in ASCII digits and
'E' over an HPIB interface and displays them on the Panaplex, it was
designed to be used as a data diaply on HPIB systems. And it doesn't seem
to sell for ridiculous amounts of money.
Yearsd ago I got some loose 16 dgiit (same as in the above devices) and 9
digit (rather taller digits) Panaplex displays. I stil lahve them. Alas
they'd run out of 12 digit ones, or I'd haev bought soem of those too. Of
course I didn;'t know at the time I was goign to get devices for which
these would be useful spares, but that's the way of computer collecting.
You buy bits when you can and only later find a use for them.
-tony
28 Sep
28 Sep
10:29 a.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what
gas would they have
to contain I wonder?)
Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red, at
higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the
decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode
erosion though.
Alexey
11:06 a.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in
single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes
(what gas would they have
to contain I wonder?)
Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red,
at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the
decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode
erosion though.
1:14 p.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
Can it be that bad? In halogen lamps the envelope is full of chlorine
which is even more electronegative than oxygen. Admittedly the valence is
different, you're not discharging through the gas, and the lower pressure
will make the tungsten evaporate faster, but I imagine/hope it would at
least last hours or days. Alternatively, you could try to build a barrier
that's impermeable to oxygen but permeable to high energy electrons. But
I'm probably overthinking it. Surely there is another element that will
emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum?
Alexey
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in
single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness. No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes
(what gas would they have
to contain I wonder?)
Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red,
at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the
decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode
erosion though.
2 p.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/28/2012 04:14 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
I don't remember how the halogen cycle works in those bulbs...you
probably do; would that not address the corrosion issue in that case?
On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
Can it be that bad? In halogen lamps the envelope is full of chlorine
which is even more electronegative than oxygen. Admittedly the valence
is different, you're not discharging through the gas, and the lower
pressure will make the tungsten evaporate faster, but I imagine/hope it
would at least last hours or days. Alternatively, you could try to build
a barrier that's impermeable to oxygen but permeable to high energy
electrons. But I'm probably overthinking it. On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in
single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness. No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes
(what gas would they have
to contain I wonder?)
Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red,
at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the
decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd have problems with electrode
erosion though. Surely there is another
element that will emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum?
Neon itself has several green spectral emission lines, hence the
existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than
the red/orange lines.
Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating
somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not
enough intensity there to be useful.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
29 Sep
29 Sep
7:14 a.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
----snip----
Neon itself has several green spectral emission lines, hence the
existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than
the red/orange lines.
Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating
somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not
enough intensity there to be useful.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Hi
Last time I looked at neon spectrum from a NE2,
There were no green lines. There was a yellow and
as I recall 2 reds but no green.
I don't know how a GreNe works but it isn't a normal
discharge color.
Dwight
7:47 a.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Sep 29, 2012, at 10:14, dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com> wrote:
Hi
Last time I looked at neon spectrum from a NE2,
There were no green lines. There was a yellow and
as I recall 2 reds but no green.
I don't know how a GreNe works but it isn't a normal
discharge color.
I seem to recall that the nixies with orange filters on them have
them because of the effects of the secondary gases (argon,
mercury, etc.) that are present as ionization accelerants.
Presumably the ones which require filters have a higher
concentration of said gases?
- Dave
11:31 a.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On 09/29/2012 10:14 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Neon does in fact emit at least one green line, at 540.1nm. There may
be others but that's the one I recall offhand. As I mentioned they are
very dim compared to the red and orange lines. You should be able to
see that line in the output from an NE2 if you look very carefully.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Neon itself
has several green spectral emission lines, hence the
existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than
the red/orange lines.
Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating
somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not
enough intensity there to be useful.
Last time I looked at neon spectrum from a NE2,
There were no green lines. There was a yellow and
as I recall 2 reds but no green.
I don't know how a GreNe works but it isn't a normal
discharge color.
12:39 p.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
I don't remember how the halogen cycle works in
those bulbs...you
probably do; would that not address the corrosion issue in that case?
My understanding is that te the tempearture of the envelope, the halogen
reacts with any tungsten that may have evaporated there and forms a
volatile tungsten halide. This then ends up on the filalend where it is
decomposed by the heighter temperature there and the tungsten metal
re-depositied o nthe filament.
That's why a quartz envelope is used. It has to get hot.
Surely there is another
element that will emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum?
Neon itself has several green spectral emission lines, hence the
existence of "GreNe" lasers, but they are of far lower in intensity than
the red/orange lines.
Every green gas-discharge bulb I've seen has had a phosphor coating
somewhere, so my assumption (and that's all this is) is that there's not
enough intensity there to be useful.
Yes. Green neons are common, but have phosphor-coated envelopes. I;ve
also seen blue ones, made similarly. There are gasses with strong blue
emission lines, but I guess they're more expensive and/or need a higher
voltage to ionise them than neon.
If there is a gas that will glow green, I guess it's something that's
either exotic, or somethign that attacks the electrodes far too fast.
I've never seen a true green gas discharge lamp.
-tony
12:30 p.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>>> No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have
>>> to contain I wonder?)
>>
>> Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red,
>> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the
Are you sure that oxygen can be got to give a gree nglow? I asked my
father about this, who has done a _lot_ of work on vacuum systems, and he
claimed it doesn;t. The (foten green) glow you see at very low pressures
is in fac the glass fluorescing.
decay is non-radiative. I'm guessing you'd
have problems with electrode
erosion though.
Uhh...ya think? ;) I'd bet the electrode life would be measured in
single- or two-digit MINUTES depending on their thickness. different, you're not discharging through the gas,
and the lower pressure
That is quite big differnece. Having an ionised plasma is very differnt
from having a gas.
will make the tungsten evaporate faster, but I
imagine/hope it would at
least last hours or days. Alternatively, you could try to build a barrier
that's impermeable to oxygen but permeable to high energy electrons. But
I'm probably overthinking it. Surely there is another element that will
emit mostly in the green part of the spectrum?
Well, I am sure there are metalic vapours that do (barium?) but of course
such lamps normall start with some other gas (neon, argon) and the heat
from that discharge vaporisses the metal. Think of the
sodium street
lapmps. They start off growing red -- that's neon.. You get the
yellow
sodium light only after the metal has vaporised. I don;t think,
therefore, that a metal vapour would be suitable for a nixie tube.
S am sdubious about Ne/Kr mixtures. I can find no refernece to these
giving a green glow, does somebody have a reliable reference for this?
Ofte nKr87 was added to the enon gass in gass discharge displays, it's
mildly radioactive and helps ionisation of the neon. And such displays
glow orannge. Of course the compostiion may well make a difference to the
colour, but I am tryign to think of a physcial mechanism to get green
ligth from said mixture...
-tony
10:13 p.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
On Sat, 29 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
I'm basing this on the fact that the aurora glows red at high altitude and
green at lower altitude. According to what I've read, the green glow
comes from oxygen. Wikipedia (I know, not the most reliable source) says:
>> Oxygen
at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red,
>> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the
Are you sure that oxygen can be got to give a gree nglow? I asked my
father about this, who has done a _lot_ of work on vacuum systems, and he
claimed it doesn;t. The (foten green) glow you see at very low pressures
is in fac the glass fluorescing. Oxygen is unusual in terms of its return to ground
state: it can take
three quarters of a second to emit green light and up to two minutes to
emit red. Collisions with other atoms or molecules will absorb the
excitation energy and prevent emission. Because the very top of the
atmosphere has a higher percentage of oxygen and is sparsely distributed
such collisions are rare enough to allow time for oxygen to emit red.
Collisions become more frequent progressing down into the atmosphere, so
that red emissions do not have time to happen, and eventually even green
light emissions are prevented.
Now that I think about it, it might be a bit tricky to build a nixie tube
where the mean time to collision is on the order of a second :-\
Alexey
10:22 p.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk
Subject: Re: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Date: Sat, 29 Sep 2012 20:30:11 +0100
Hi
While the greenish color see is from the glass, oxygen does have a bluish
green glow of its own. It can be seen in nebula like the veil nebula.
It can seen in comets heads as they get impacted by particals from
the sun.
It is not the brightest of the colors that glow in the visibe band.
Sodium yellow out shines most all of them.
Dwight
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On 09/28/2012 01:29 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
>> On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
>>
>>> No. AFAIK _no_ green displays are nixie tubes (what gas would they have
>>> to contain I wonder?)
>>
>> Oxygen at a suitable pressure? IIUC at very low pressure it glows red,
>> at higher pressure it glows green and at suffieciently high pressure the
Are you sure that oxygen can be got to give a gree nglow? I asked my
father about this, who has done a _lot_ of work on vacuum systems, and he
claimed it doesn;t. The (foten green) glow you see at very low pressures
is in fac the glass fluorescing.
1 Oct
1 Oct
8:33 a.m.
New subject: gas discharge lamp colors Re: strange remark about your collection?
I don't know who wrote this:
> Can it be that bad? In halogen lamps the envelope
is full of chlorine
> which is even more electronegative than oxygen. Admittedly the valence is
But chlorine is *not* more electronegative than oxygen. You must have
been thinking of *fluorine*.
Electronegativity goes F -> O -> Cl -> N -> Kr -> Br -> I -> Xe ->
S -> C.
Peace... Sridhar
27 Sep
27 Sep
12:52 p.m.
Chris Tofu wrote:
Some older UK microwave ovens had a 'power control' which was an
electromechncial pulse width modualtor on the input side of the magnetro
trnasformer. Said device consisted of a motor that rotated onece very
couple of seconds, a cam arrangelemt and a mechnical latch that operated
a mciroswitch. At soem point on the rotation the swithc closde, the pint
where it opened dependded on the setting of the 'power' control.
-tony
C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them.
We got our first around 1980.
Actually the early microwave ovens had mechanical timers.
4:47 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Some older UK microwave ovens had a 'power
control' which was an
electromechncial pulse width modualtor on the input side of the magnetro
trnasformer. Said device consisted of a motor that rotated onece very
couple of seconds, a cam arrangelemt and a mechnical latch that operated
a mciroswitch. At soem point on the rotation the swithc closde, the pint
where it opened dependded on the setting of the 'power' control.
If you used the input sine wave instead of a motor, you could simulate
that with an SCR!
28 Sep
28 Sep
1 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
A triac would be better as it would contuct on both half-cycles.
But be careful. You don;t want to switch over fractions of the AC cycle
(like a lamp dimmer). You want the magnetron to be fully on for a bit,
then fully off for a (different) bit.
The magnetron is essentially a facy directly heated diode valve. For
mechancial reaosns, the anode is earthed, the filament runs at a high -ve
voltage. The transformer powers the filmanent and provides the HV. You
need to have the filament fully powred for the magnetron to do anything
much, hence the reason not to try swithcign the AC over part of the cycle.
In any case the mechancial thing was easier to fix :-)
Am I the only pwerson to rememebr 'simmerstats'? They are still used
AFAIK (or at least the ceramic hob (cooktop) we got about 4 years ago
uses them). A simmerstat is a hot wire and bimetalic stip used as a pulse
width modulator, used to switch a conventional heating element on and off
and deliver the right average heat to the thing you are cooking. It's not
a thermostat, it doesn't check the temperature of the load. It just turns
the element on for a few seconds, then off for a diffenrnt length of
time, and so on.
COme to think of it, years ago I saw a small smmmerstat built into an
over-sized UK mains plug, to be used with tabletop plate warmers, etc.
-tony
Some older UK microwave ovens had a 'power
control' which was an
electromechncial pulse width modualtor on the input side of the magnetro
trnasformer. Said device consisted of a motor that rotated onece very
couple of seconds, a cam arrangelemt and a mechnical latch that operated
a mciroswitch. At soem point on the rotation the swithc closde, the pint
where it opened dependded on the setting of the 'power' control.
If you used the input sine wave instead of a motor, you could simulate
that with an SCR!
26 Sep
26 Sep
1:09 p.m.
On 26 Sep 2012 at 11:54, Chris Tofu wrote:
?C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got
our first
around 1980.
Nope. Mechanical timers. Google "Amana Radarange". The RR-1 though
RR-5 (circa 1967-75) all had two mechanical timer dials--a 5 minute
dial and a 25 minute dial, which were additive. No door safety
latches until about 1973. I just diassembled a 1975 Amana and found
a TMS-1000 MCU in it (PMOS). Only two TTL ICs in it--both 7447s.
The early Amanas used electromagnets, rather than permanent magnets
on the magnetron, which made them *very* heavy.
Microcontrollers made it into commercial ovens *much* later.
--Chuck
3:15 p.m.
On 26 Sep 2012 at 11:54, Chris Tofu wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
?C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them.
We got our first
around 1980.
Nope. Mechanical timers. Google "Amana
Radarange".
He is probably referring to the first ones that HE had, rather than
"first"
1:34 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics.
That must be why commercial microwave ovens usually have just a timer
dial.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
6:43 p.m.
On 9/26/2012 2:34 PM, David Griffith wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
I think the ones I have seen - 11 push switches 1-9 minutes and stop.
Few places I suspect need Potato, popcorn or coffee buttons.
Ben.
C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of
electronics.
That must be why commercial microwave ovens usually have just a timer dial.
27 Sep
27 Sep
1:51 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 03:43 AM, ben wrote:
I think the ones I have seen - 11 push switches 1-9 minutes and stop.
Few places I suspect need Potato, popcorn or coffee buttons.
Ben.
ugh, this is one of my pet peeves, a microwave oven need to dials, one
timer and one for power.. and you could even skip the power dial for all
I care.
/P
2:14 a.m.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 10:51 AM, Pontus <pontus at update.uu.se> wrote:
ugh, this is one of my pet peeves, a microwave oven
need to dials, one timer
and one for power.. and you could even skip the power dial for all I care.
/P
Well, here in France, the el-super-cheap microwave sold by the local
supermarket chain (Carrefour) has exactly that.
The only problem is that short times (<30s) are very hard to do. We
end up using a separate time for the instances where that is
necessary. Do that often enough, you'll appreciate the pushbutton
interface. (The timer knob shaft also has some play in it, cheap
construction - sometimes the oven stops without the "ding" (mechanical
bell) And yes, this is a brand-new device.)
Joe.
--
Joachim Thiemann :: http://jthiem.bitbucket.org ::
http://signalsprocessed.blogspot.com
8:14 a.m.
From: David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics.
That must be why commercial microwave ovens usually have just a timer dial.
C: Their ovens get used day and night. Why run the risk of some electronic component
failing when you're cranking out souflees?
26 Sep
26 Sep
2:35 p.m.
On 9/26/2012 12:54 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
_______________________________
From: Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com>
I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few
computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics
to your microwave oven? (Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers,
even refrigerators seem to have them nowadays).
C:The first uwave ovens had computers in them. We got our first around 1980.
I've thought it
notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them.
C: Chefs are known for their mistrust of electronics.
A: uPC's are a marking gimmick for microwaves.Easy to use is not the answer
any more. Look at windows interfaces bloat today. The only real good
*stolen* feature is cut and paste from application to another.
Ben.
12:31 p.m.
I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more
than a few
computers lurking around--
Well, FSVO "computer". For some purposes, an embedded microcontroller
counts; for others, it doesn't.
have you looked at the control electronics to your
microwave oven?
Yes.
They fried in a lightning storm. Everything was fine for a while;
then, after a lightning storm, it would beep intermittently. It
finally occurred to me that if it can beep when it's not supposed to,
it can turn on the microwaves when it's not supposed to.
So I looked over the circuit, concluded that the control board all
culminated in two relays (one for microwaves, one for light and fan and
such) and replaced it with zip cord coming out to an external switch.
I'm a big believer in "too simple to break".
(Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, even
refrigerators seem
to have them nowadays).
They do. That's a reason I avoid "modern" white goods. [In case that
idiom isn't portable, "white goods" is North American - or perhaps
Canadian? - for major appliances like ranges/stoves/etc, dishwashers,
refrigerators, laundry washers and dryers, and the like. Whether they
are actually coloured white in any particular instance is not very
relevant.]
I've thought it notable that commercial kitchens
seem to have fewer
of them.
I agree. When the pros don't use something, there's usually a lesson
to be learnt from that. (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do,
sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost
always good.)
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:51 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 03:31 PM, Mouse wrote:
When the pros don't use something, there's
usually a lesson
to be learnt from that. (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do,
sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost
always good.)
Too bad the world of computing hasn't figured that out.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:01 p.m.
________________________________
From: Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org>
I've thought it notable that commercial kitchens
seem to have fewer
of them.
I agree.? When the pros don't use something, there's usually a lesson
to be learnt from that.? (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do,
sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost
always good.)
C: They are pros, therefore don't need excessive use of timers, therefore
"automated" appliances aren't needed. The issue of pros not using them
probably has little to do w/other then they don't need them, and probably look down on
using them.
???? You generally don't pay big bucks for a meal made by a chef who sticks things in
the microwave.
????? Now a restaurant like Olive Garden is another story. I'm sure there's ample
use of automated cooking appliances.
5:08 p.m.
On 09/26/2012 05:01 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
I agree. When the pros don't use something,
there's usually a lesson
to be learnt from that. (Sometimes you want to do what the pros do,
sometimes you don't, but knowing why the difference exists is almost
always good.)
C: They are pros, therefore don't need excessive use of timers, therefore
"automated" appliances aren't needed. The issue of pros not using them
probably has little to do w/other then they don't need them, and probably look down on
using them.
Yes and no. They like convenience as much as the next person, but
consumer-grade equipment fails under heavy use, and many of them
associate such user interfaces with consumer-grade equipment.
-Dave (engaged to a chef)
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:15 p.m.
On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:31 PM, Mouse wrote:
They do. That's a reason I avoid
"modern" white goods. [In case that
idiom isn't portable, "white goods" is North American - or perhaps
Canadian? - for major appliances like ranges/stoves/etc, dishwashers,
refrigerators, laundry washers and dryers, and the like. Whether they
are actually coloured white in any particular instance is not very
relevant.]
I think it's *more* British/Canadian, but I've seen it creeping
into US usage, mostly in electronics app notes where it describes
the widest array of possible uses for a chip without actually
describing any particular use. Handy term, I guess.
- Dave
27 Sep
27 Sep
12:46 p.m.
have you
looked at the control electronics to your microwave oven?
Yes.
They fried in a lightning storm. Everything was fine for a while;
then, after a lightning storm, it would beep intermittently. It
finally occurred to me that if it can beep when it's not supposed to,
it can turn on the microwaves when it's not supposed to.
(Ranges/cooktops, dishwashers, coffeemakers, even refrigerators seem
to have them nowadays).
They do. That's a reason I avoid "modern" white goods. [In case that
idiom isn't portable, "white goods" is
North American - or perhaps
Canadian? - for major appliances like ranges/stoves/etc, dishwashers,
refrigerators, laundry washers and dryers, and the like. Whether they
are actually coloured white in any particular instance is not very
relevant.]
The same term is used over here, Along with 'brown goods' to mean TVs,
radios, etc (which traditioanlyl came in brown wooden cabinets, I guess).
-tony
28 Sep
28 Sep
12:28 a.m.
It finally
occurred to me that [a microwvae after a lightning storm]
can beep when it's not supposed to, it can turn on the microwaves
when it's not supposed to.
Every microwave oven I've seen over here has a
quite complex
interlock on the door that it independant of the microcontroller
syustem. No matter what the latter does, the magnetron cannot be
powered up. 
1:48 a.m.
On 28 September 2012 08:28, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
Many years ago, I actually had a microwave intermittently turn on by
itself... We (usually) took to leaving a jug of water in it while
quickly sourcing a replacement. I couldn't easily power it off when
not in use as the socket was behind it in a non-spouse friendly spot.
I'd be happy to leave the current one with the door open when not in
use, but it has an internal lamp that comes on when the door is open,
which gets irritating and a waste of energy. At least this time I
have an external isolation switch so I can switch it off if I need to
(although then I upset the clock display..)
Rob
Every
microwave oven I've seen over here has a quite complex
interlock on the door that it independant of the microcontroller
syustem. No matter what the latter does, the magnetron cannot be
powered up.
So did this one. But we were often, perhaps even usually, leaving the
door closed when it was not in use, and was unwilling to count on our
breaking that habit as the only defense against the potential bad
consequences
7 Oct
7 Oct
8:23 a.m.
On 09/28/2012 03:48 AM, Rob wrote:
At least this time I
have an external isolation switch so I can switch it off if I need to
(although then I upset the clock display..)
I'd love to know which idiot came up with the idea of integrating clocks
with things :-(
At least our stove is old and has a clock running from the AC supply, so it
only loses time for the length of a power cut - the microwave and coffee
maker both reset at the slightest glitch, and it's not like we need three
clocks in the room anyway.
28 Sep
28 Sep
9:04 a.m.
On 09/28/2012 12:28 AM, Mouse wrote:
So did this one. But we were often, perhaps even
usually, leaving the
door closed when it was not in use, and was unwilling to count on our
breaking that habit as the only defense against the potential bad
consequences. (Or would have been, I believe; it was long enough ago I
don't specifically recall, but I suspect I didn't reason it out in that
much detail, rather than just "eep, it could turn on the magnetron,
better open it up and see if I can eliminate the processor".)
I can't comment on other countries, but a door interlock was specified
for microwave ovens by US law in 1973. Some ovens made just after that
law have duplicate interlocks in series. Lawyers can be a mighty force
for technical innovation...
--Chuck
27 Sep
27 Sep
8:45 a.m.
At 12:54 PM 9/26/2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than
a few
computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics
to your microwave oven? [...] I've thought it
notable that commercial kitchens seem to have fewer of them.
That is increasingly less true.
- John
12:28 p.m.
On 26 Sep 2012 at 10:16, Fred Cisin wrote:
I think i would draw the distinction between 'computer' and
'microcontrolelr' in that thew former is user-programmable. Now who is
goign to make the first kitchen appliance that runs a C compiler :-)
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote:
I daresay that in a modern kitchen, there are more than a few
computers lurking around--have you looked at the control electronics "Computers don't belong in the
kitchen" - wife
Honeywell Kitchen Computer? to your microwave oven? (Ranges/cooktops,
dishwashers, coffeemakers,
even refrigerators seem to have them nowadays). I've thought it
In my case there are plenty of comptuers i nthe ktichen, but they're
things you'd recognise as comptuers -- HP9830, S100 systems, a PERQ, etc.
As for the appliances :
The washing machine and dryer are not in the kitchen (but alas each
contains a microcontroller)
The dishwahser is one of the last models to have a cam-and-switch timer
The oven clcok probably has a microcontroller in it, but one of the first
things I did to said oven was take the top cover off and work out how to
bypass the swithcing cotnacts fo the clock so the oven could be used if
the timer failed. It was trivial, the microcontroller operates a relay in
sereis wit hthe mains to the rest of the oven. The thermostat is an
oil-filled bulb/capuilary/bellows operating a mechncial swtich.
The hob ('cooktop'?) has no electronics at all
And that's about it.
I much prefer things I cna understand, repair and even 'bodge over' to
keep them working in an 'emergnecy'. One year the oven thermostat (not on
this oven) failed a few days before Newtonsday. We managed to cook the
meal using a home-made thermostat consisting of (and this actually
invloves a classic computer) :
HP71B computer
HP3421 data logger
(I guess an HP9114 disk drive, but that wasn't essential)
A thermocouple (I had to order this specially, and I was darn pleased it
arrived in time!). IIRC the HP3421 has built-in conversiosn for a Type T,
not the more common Type K.. That was linked ot oen of the analogue
inptuws on the 3421, of course
A little bit of electronics (a transistor driver stage) conencted to one
of the digital outptus of the 3421.
A large relay driven by that to swithc hte oven elements.
Yes it worked. It was probably a better control system than the
replacement themostat I fitted a couple of weeks later...
-tony
4:22 p.m.
On 09/27/2012 12:28 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
I think i would draw the distinction between
'computer' and
'microcontrolelr' in that thew former is user-programmable. Now who is
goign to make the first kitchen appliance that runs a C compiler :-)
Well now, that depends upon your description of "programmable". I can
program my microwave oven to cook for X minutes at power level 3, then
cook for Y minutes at power level 2, then keep things warm for as long
as I care. If I recall correctly, the section in the owner's manual
even calls that "programming"
Here's a web page on programming a Panasonic commercial microwave,
complete with references to the "PROG" button.
http://www.panasonic.com/business/commercial-food-services/technical-suppor…
LG offers an Internet refrigerator that will not only tell you about
what's inside, but allow you to surf the web while making ice cubes.
Samsung offers a WiFi enabled fridge that allows one to check Google
calendars, get the latest weather, leave messages, plan menus and
monitor needs for recipes...
If those aren't "kitchen computers", I don't know what is.
One curious side effect is the vanishing of traditional controls. My
sister-in-law is legally blind and lives in a home with an all-electric
kitchen. She remarks that it's increasingly difficult to find a kitchen
stove with real knob controls--it's all touch surfaces with digital
visual readout.
--Chuck
27 Sep
27 Sep
11:22 a.m.
New subject: SGI Espressigo [Was: Re: strange remark about your collection?]
On 09/26/2012 07:16 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Sam O'nella wrote:
The only computer my wife has agreed to have in the kitchen is the SGI
Espressigo:
http://www.8bit-homecomputermuseum.at/computer/pictures/sgi%20espressigo/sg…
So help a fellow geek get his dream of a computer in the kitchen
fulfilled! Anyone has one for sale or trade?
Even if you are not willing to part with it, it would be fun to hear
"Computers don't belong in the
kitchen" - wife
Honeywell Kitchen Computer?
from you. I know of two or three in collectors hands
but I really have
no idea how rare or common these things are.
Cheers,
Pontus.
2:16 p.m.
On Sep 26, 2012, at 3:40 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make
baby carrots. On the other hand, sticking a rotisserie
chicken on a machine lathe ought to be a somewhat reliable
way of separating grease from meat from bones in the
absence of a proper kitchen centrifuge.
- Dave
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC
journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
Because that "rotisserie" doesn't have an adequate spindle speed!
5:44 p.m.
. . . and how do you make curly fries?
Gallagher: and the Sledge-o-matic will even make french fries! But, I
swear that you have to hit that sucker just right!
Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago.
Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy.
8:58 a.m.
From: Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com>
Fred Cisin wrote:
Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a
century ago.
Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy.
I have a *fairly* new one *now*.
Peace...? Sridhar
C: Fairly new wot? Apple/potato peeler? Bridgeport? Lathe? All of the above?
???? Real men use their Leatherman to peel their apples anyway. Or eats them with the
skin! I have getting that crap stuck in my teeth though. And I liked sauteed taters w/the
skin thank you.
10:13 a.m.
> > Apple and potato peeling lathes were
commonplace a century ago.
> > Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy.
> I have a *fairly* new one *now*.
C:\DERP> Fairly new wot? Apple/potato peeler?
Bridgeport? Lathe? All of
the above?
probably apple or potato. They don't last long after you peel them.
???? Real men use their Leatherman to peel their apples
anyway. Or eats
them with the skin! I have getting that crap stuck in my teeth though.
And I liked sauteed taters w/the skin thank you.
Mmmmm. Taters
Apple pie is better with them peeled.
I use a Victorinox/Forstner? knife. I have an apple lathe that is about a
century old, but it's slower than a fast knife.
11:41 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 10:13 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Apple pie is better with them peeled.
I use a Victorinox/Forstner? knife. I have an apple lathe that is about a
century old, but it's slower than a fast knife.
I make my apple pies with zucchini and Calvados. Better texture. Most
store-bought apples don't have any flavor anyway.
--Chuck
2:01 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
I make my apple pies with zucchini and Calvados.
Better texture. Most
store-bought apples don't have any flavor anyway.
I had forgotten that stores sell apples, plums, and lemons.
They grow on trees.
My dog would eat all of the plums on the ground, and then deposit
pre-fertilized pits. I didn't know that he could even get to the area
behind the shed until I had to start cutting down excess trees.
8:39 a.m.
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a century ago.
Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy.
C: You're not going to get Bridgeport accuracy regardless, cuz BP never made a lathe.
But the question remains why is Myford accuracy necessary in the kitchen??? Alright forget
it, I don't want to know!
9:20 a.m.
On Sep 27, 2012, at 11:39 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Apple and potato peeling lathes were commonplace a
century ago.
Doesn't really need Bridgeport accuracy.
C: You're not going to get Bridgeport accuracy regardless, cuz BP never made a lathe.
But the question remains why is Myford accuracy necessary in the kitchen??? Alright forget
it, I don't want to know!
Why would you want an imprecisely peeled apple? Good tools
are worth paying for, and I'll have you know I get a lot of
positive comments on the results from my carrot lathe.
- Dave
10:49 a.m.
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
Why would you want an imprecisely peeled apple?? Good tools
are worth paying for, and I'll have you know I get a lot of
positive comments on the results from my carrot lathe.
C: What could possibly be added to the shape of a carrot??? It's already an
exquisitely machined device. Men build lathes (and you bought yours??? huh?), but only God
can make a carrot. Men also build salads. I forgot that part.
?The upcoming Make has a writeup of the mutlimachine-lathe by Pat Delany if anyone's
interested (I hope I got the specifics right). Major material - concrete.
3:14 p.m.
On 9/27/2012 11:49 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
The upcoming Make has a writeup of the
mutlimachine-lathe by Pat
Delany if anyone's interested (I hope I got the specifics right).
Major material - concrete.
Is this the one?
I like Gingery's books. I can not find a link now, but a intersesting
site for beginers.
http://www.backyardmetalcasting.com/index.html
Ben.
8:18 a.m.
From: David Riley <fraveydank at gmail.com>
Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to make
baby carrots.?
C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby carrots are BABIES,
not little carrots turned down from big ones. Duh.
On the other hand, sticking a rotisserie
chicken on a machine lathe ought to be a somewhat reliable
way of separating grease from meat from bones in the
absence of a proper kitchen centrifuge.
C: Alright whatever. Just take a nap, you'll feel better.
9:15 a.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C:\DERP> See, you're just encouraging him. And
everyone knows that baby
carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. Duh.
You would be amazed at what percentage of "baby" carrots are FRAUDULENT
adult carrots cut down to impersonate babies.
10:20 a.m.
From: Fred Cisin <cisin at xenosoft.com>
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
C:\DERP> See, you're just encouraging him. And
everyone knows that baby
carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones. Duh.
You would be amazed at what percentage of "baby" carrots are FRAUDULENT
adult carrots cut down to impersonate babies.
C: I was a fraudulent adult once. I applied for a job while still in 10th grade, posing as
an 18 year old (I was 16). Some say I'm still a fraudulent adult. I say the claim is
credible.
?Any other fraudulent adults on the list here?
11:35 a.m.
On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to
make baby
carrots.
C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby
carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones.
Duh.
Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy
proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though,
you need a proper press.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:38 p.m.
Dave McGuire wrote:
Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an
awfully messy
proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that,
though, you need a proper press.
For maximal use of the babies, you should make baby oil, baby powder,
and baby shampoo, which all come from different parts of the baby and/or
different stages of processing. It works similarly to how pig
slaughterhouses use every part of the pig except the squeal and the curl
in the tail.
4 p.m.
On 9/27/12 3:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote:
The hog slaughterhouses back home record the pigs' squeal to be used
for scaring the babies into the chute.
Doc
Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an
awfully messy
proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though,
you need a proper press.
For maximal use of the babies, you should make baby oil, baby powder,
and baby shampoo, which all come from different parts of the baby and/or
different stages of processing. It works similarly to how pig
slaughterhouses use every part of the pig except the squeal and the curl
in the tail.
5:08 p.m.
On 09/27/2012 04:38 PM, Eric Smith wrote:
Dave McGuire wrote:
Nicely done. I'm saving this one. :)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an
awfully messy
proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that,
though, you need a proper press.
For maximal use of the babies, you should make baby oil, baby powder,
and baby shampoo, which all come from different parts of the baby and/or
different stages of processing. It works similarly to how pig
slaughterhouses use every part of the pig except the squeal and the curl
in the tail.
1:53 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
A++++! Would buy again!
:)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus
to make baby
carrots.
C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby
carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones.
Duh.
Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy proposition.
I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though, you need a proper
press.
5:03 p.m.
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
I was curious about babie carrots.It seems that they make sliced
carrots for thing like soups and such.The smaller end was cut off and then crushed for
things like babyfood.At some time someone thought of packaging them a babie
carrots.You'll notice that they are getting bigger around. More demand forbabie
carrots than sliced.Such is life.Dwight
Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus
to make baby
carrots.
C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby
carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones.
Duh.
Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy
proposition. I prefer to use them to make baby oil. For that, though,
you need a proper press.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
28 Sep
28 Sep
10:30 a.m.
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
On 09/27/2012 11:18 AM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Certainly you need some sort of lathing apparatus to
make baby
carrots.
C: See, you're just encouraging him. And everyone knows that baby
carrots are BABIES, not little carrots turned down from big ones.
Duh.
? Making baby carrots out of BABIES sounds like an awfully messy proposition.? I prefer to
use them to make baby oil.? For that, though, you need a proper press.
C: In the sense that kittens are _babies_, fox kits are _babies_. Not fraudulent adult
carrots turned into baby carrots. oi
27 Sep
27 Sep
12:48 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
Anmd the ebarings are nowhere near accurate neough :-)
Acutally, whatevr was said in Datafile, I have never made this comment. I
do sometimes say that a part can be made i na good home workshop, and
that means one containing a small lathe. I also sometimes talk about
doing repairs on 'the kitchen table'. It doesn't imply that's where the
lthe should be...
-tony
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC
journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
Because that "rotisserie" doesn't have an adequate spindle speed!
26 Sep
26 Sep
12:41 p.m.
From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
C: For what may I ask!!?? Removing kernels from the cob? Ornamental shaving of ice pops?!
Potato/apple pealing???!!! Boring donut holes!!!!?????
I think you've gone and lost it my friend!
2:08 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chris Tofu wrote:
From: Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
C: For what may I ask!!?? Removing kernels from the cob? Ornamental
shaving of ice pops?! Potato/apple pealing???!!! Boring donut
holes!!!!?????
I think you've gone and lost it my friend!
A really fun way to make hash browns.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
10:54 p.m.
On 27/09/2012, at 1:22 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
I think we've heard that old's piel before.
> Potato/apple pealing???!!!
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012, Chuck Guzis wrote:
That, I can't imagine. What would you use
for a clapper? Ringing
Nine Tailors with potatoes and apples?
Is that a peel to our spelling capabilities?
2:36 p.m.
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:41:21 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC
journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
Well. My kitchen features a DeVere 504 enlarger... :-)
--
\end{Jochen}
\ref{http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/}
6:58 p.m.
On 9/26/2012 3:36 PM, Jochen Kunz wrote:
On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 19:41:21 +0100 (BST)
ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (Tony Duell) wrote:
Well all I can say is my workshop has a Ham Sandwich around.
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC
journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
Well. My kitchen features a DeVere 504 enlarger...
:-)
7:14 p.m.
At 11:36 PM +0200 9/26/12, Jochen Kunz wrote:
Well. My kitchen features a DeVere 504 enlarger... :-)
Nice! I assume then that it is suitably dark? If so I'm envious! :-)
My Beseler 4x5 and 23C live in the garage. I need to get rid of a
bunch of computer junk so I can build a proper darkroom out there!
Zane
--
| Zane H. Healy | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| healyzh at aracnet.com | OpenVMS Enthusiast |
| | Photographer |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| My flickr Photostream |
| http://www.flickr.com/photos/33848088 at N03/ |
| My Photography Website |
| http://www.zanesphotography.com |
26 Sep
26 Sep
8:59 p.m.
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 7:41 PM, Tony Duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Mine is a Denford Starturn cnc in the kitchen :)
Dave Caroline
"Computers don't belong in the kitchen" - wife
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
27 Sep
27 Sep
8:50 a.m.
From: Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC
journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
Mine is a Denford Starturn cnc in the kitchen :)
Dave Caroline
C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I threw out the console months ago. Was
thinking of converting it to manual operation. All that new fandangled computer stuff just
ain't for me!
9:49 a.m.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 4:50 PM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
the console had the stepper drivers in!,
look at linuxcnc easy retrofit for stepper systems
I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill
http://www.linuxcnc.org/
Dave Caroline
According to the current issue of Datafile (HPCC
journal), a certain
'Tony' gives 'casual reminders that "Every well-equipped kitchen should
have a lathe"' :-)
Mine is a Denford Starturn cnc in the kitchen :)
Dave Caroline
C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I threw out the console months ago. Was
thinking of converting it to manual operation. All that new fandangled computer stuff just
ain't for me!
10:54 a.m.
On 9/27/2012 10:49 AM, Dave Caroline wrote:
I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5
axis mill
http://www.linuxcnc.org/
Dave Caroline
With all the metal shop equipment why is nobody doing metal
toggle switch handles for PDP toggle switches. This is just looking
the mechanical aspect, not a electrical one.
Ben.
12:27 p.m.
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, ben wrote:
On 9/27/2012 10:49 AM, Dave Caroline wrote:
If I had a good metal chewing CNC machine, I'd be up for it. Just think
of the cool paddles in anodized aluminum.
I've got the design & toolpath software to do the job, so someone just
needs to buy me a Tormach so I can get started. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home
made 5 axis mill
http://www.linuxcnc.org/
Dave Caroline
With all the metal shop equipment why is nobody doing metal
toggle switch handles for PDP toggle switches. This is just looking
the mechanical aspect, not a electrical one. 
28 Sep
28 Sep
6:47 a.m.
From: "geneb": Thursday, September 27, 2012 12:27 PM
On Thu, 27 Sep 2012, ben wrote:
I agree that this would look cool (in a non-authentic sort of way).
I do want to point out, though, that it is a bad idea to make the switch
handles tougher than the underlying switch. Otherwise, bumping the
front of the machine is likely to damage the switches and/or the PCB
that they are attached to. While it is a pain that the handles are a point
of failure, they do protect the stuff behind them.
Perhaps only the pivot axle really needs to be plastic. Thin diameter
ABS rod shouldn't be too hard to find these days :-).
Of course, given a CAD drawing of a handle, it should also be possible
to mill entire handles in plastic. (More practically, mill an aluminum mold
to cast sets of plastic handles.)
Vince
With all the metal shop equipment why is nobody
doing metal
toggle switch handles for PDP toggle switches. This is just looking
the mechanical aspect, not a electrical one.
If I had a good metal chewing CNC machine, I'd be up for it. Just think
of the cool paddles in anodized aluminum.
27 Sep
27 Sep
10:57 a.m.
From: Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I threw
out the console months ago. Was thinking of converting it to manual operation. All that
new fandangled computer stuff just ain't for me!
the console had the stepper drivers in!,
C: actually the steppers were slapped on to the mill itself. I still have them, but
they're trash.
look at linuxcnc easy retrofit for stepper systems
I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill
http://www.linuxcnc.org/
C: Thanks, knew all that. It's the expense and effort at the moment though. Better to
have a working machine then nothing at all. But there's this guy on the TT_IMS yahoo
group who makes grandiose claims about his dinky Sherline setup, so I am starting to turn
green (as the Hulk should). But not w/anger...
?A Starturn is big, no? Is this your business or your hobby?
12:44 p.m.
On Thu, Sep 27, 2012 at 6:57 PM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
Starturn is about the
same size as yours, a small education sized
machine, the big lathes are in the garage
For hobby and I use the machines for odd paying jobs, replacement
parts for old clocks etc.
Dave Caroline
C: Showoff. My EMCO F1 has blown steppers and I
threw out the console months ago. Was thinking of converting it to manual operation. All
that new fandangled computer stuff just ain't for me!
the console had the stepper drivers in!,
C: actually the steppers were slapped on to the mill itself. I still have them, but
they're trash.
look at linuxcnc easy retrofit for stepper systems
I have the lathe retrofitted with it and a home made 5 axis mill
http://www.linuxcnc.org/
C: Thanks, knew all that. It's the expense and effort at the moment though. Better to
have a working machine then nothing at all. But there's this guy on the TT_IMS yahoo
group who makes grandiose claims about his dinky Sherline setup, so I am starting to turn
green (as the Hulk should). But not w/anger...
A Starturn is big, no? Is this your business or your hobby?
5:13 p.m.
From: dave.thearchivist at gmail.com
Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even
more than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago
whenit didn't cost so much.Dwight
C: Thanks, knew all that. It's the expense and effort at the moment though. Better to
have a working machine then nothing at all. But there's this guy on the TT_IMS yahoo
group who makes grandiose claims about his dinky Sherline setup, so I am starting to turn
green (as the Hulk should). But not w/anger...
A Starturn is big, no? Is this your business or your hobby?
Starturn is about the
same size as yours, a small education sized
machine, the big lathes are in the garage
For hobby and I use the machines for odd paying jobs, replacement
parts for old clocks etc.
Dave Caroline
28 Sep
28 Sep
10:46 a.m.
From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more
than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit
didn't cost so much.Dwight?
C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when
people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much
on the lite side for me. ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?
11:55 a.m.
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more
than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit
didn't cost so much.Dwight
C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when
people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much
on the lite side for me.
To hell with the mine is bigger brag :)
Sometime a small lathe is useful
I did not expand the match head
http://gears.archivist.info/gears/IMG_1214_hires.JPG
Was a proof of concept but the price seemed to frighten the
prospective customer :(
part made on the little starturn lathe with the teeth cut on the 5
axis which also is a small machine
3mm od
Dave Caroline
12:18 p.m.
From: Dave Caroline <dave.thearchivist at gmail.com>
Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow.
Everything takestime to setup. Even more than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things
with it but I bought it years ago whenit didn't cost so much.Dwight
C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when
people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much
on the lite side for me.
To hell with the mine is bigger brag :)
C: It's really not about that I don't think. It's about conditioning. Most
machinists are...ta da, machinists. They've sweated out in hot/cold/dimly lit shops
for eons (I actually worked in one them for a couple of months). Using humongous
swarfblasters that have steel bins to catch the turnings. They see a Derbyshire and look
upon it as a toy.
?On one of the forums, there was this discussion about a man who wanted to find something
to start working on clocks and such. Someone, joking around, calls out "git yourself
a 17 x 60. You can make small part on a big lathe!" For some if you can't true
your crankshaft it just ain't no good.
"Sometime a small lathe is useful
I did not expand the match head
http://gears.archivist.info/gears/IMG_1214_hires.JPG
Was a proof of concept but the price seemed to frighten the
prospective customer :(
part made on the little starturn lathe with the teeth cut on the 5
axis which also is a small machine
3mm od"
C: Right. Which is why you put one of these in your living room:
http://qmt-india.com/lathes/extra_heavy_duty_cone_pulley
so you can make that stuff, plus anything a lot bigger! Makes perfect sense to me.
Can't beat that 80" swing. You could mount _me_ on the face plate!
1:01 p.m.
On Fri, 28 Sep 2012, Dave Caroline wrote:
On Fri, Sep 28, 2012 at 6:46 PM, Chris Tofu
<rampaginggreenhulk at yahoo.com> wrote:
How about the "A LOT BIGGER" brag? :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ub6X8pjo5ls
Video of what can happen when things go dangerously wrong.
I should take a picture of my MaxNC 10 next to the 'bot. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
From: dwight elvey <dkelvey at hotmail.com>
Hi I have a Sherline and it is handy but slow. Everything takestime to setup. Even more
than a larger lathe.I do all kinds of odd things with it but I bought it years ago whenit
didn't cost so much.Dwight
C: All you can expect is .010 cuts in brass or mild steel I'm told. I despise when
people insist that a lathe/mill has to be gigantic to be useful. But that's too much
on the lite side for me.
To hell with the mine is bigger brag :)
Sometime a small lathe is useful
I did not expand the match head
http://gears.archivist.info/gears/IMG_1214_hires.JPG
Was a proof of concept but the price seemed to frighten the
prospective customer :(
part made on the little starturn lathe with the teeth cut on the 5
axis which also is a small machine
3mm od
26 Sep
26 Sep
1:58 p.m.
On Tue, 25 Sep 2012, Tom Sparks wrote:
What strange remark have you had about your
collection?
"You should sell all that crap for scrap and buy a brand new laptop."
I've had people say similar things about my scrap wire bin that I
regularly pull wire from while rebuilding and repairing wire harnesses.
"You should sell all that copper wire for a lot of money."
...as if the scrappers would /ever/ want small gauge, insulated, _tin
plated_ stranded hookup wire...
4156
days inactive
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316 comments
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