28 Aug
2012
28 Aug
'12
1:22 p.m.
On 25 August 2012 15:29, Jules Richardson <jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
That's a really interesting question, actually, I would say.
[Does a bit of Googling]
There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro.
The only one I saw or used was a Disk Pack:
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_Z80DiscPack.pdf
There was a time, when I was about 13 or 14, when I thought that this
was about *the* most powerful and desirable computer setup I'd ever
seen or heard of. ;?)
What I had not appreciated until now was that Torch's version of CP/M
was a special one, which ran from ROM. That is apparently why they
called it CPN instead.
There was also a standalone 2nd processor, no disk drives:
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/8bit_Upgrades/Torch_Z802ndproc.html
There's a user manual for a CPN system here:
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_ZDPUG.pdf
It contains a little non-technical info:
?
the TORCH CPN operating
system, (a 16K ROM containing a CP/M compatible "look alike")
?
?
INTRODUCTION
The TORCH CPN operating system which is a CP/M "look alike" has
much more flexibility than conventional CP/M. It has more "built in"
commands and is easier to use. The most significant advantage of the
TORCH CPN operating system, is that it is stored in ROM (Read Only
Memory) rather than on disc. This means that on "power up" the TORCH
disc pack and BBC micro are automatically ready to accept instructions
typed in at the keyboard.
?
Another CP/M compatible OS I was aware of was Pro-DOS for the MGT SAM Coup?:
http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/whatisprodos.html
?
What is Pro-DOS?
Pro-DOS could be thought of as a Disk Operating System (DOS), However,
it is more than this, it is a full Operating System that Provides
compatibility with CP/M 2.2.
In simple terms this means that a whole world of software that was
designed to run under CP/M 2.2. will now run on the SAM Coup?. Pro-DOS
uses the same Disk format as the Amstrad PCW 8256 and, as a result, it
can read disks from this machine direct, this also Means that there is
a vast range of software already available from sources such as Public
Domain libraries.
?
I hadn't realised it was by virus writer Chris "The Black Baron" Pile,
who was imprisoned for writing Queeg, SMEG and Pathogen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Pile_(programmer)
It is an admitted reverse-engineered effort as you can find from this
interesting review, complete with an account of nostalgia-destroying
8-bit compatibility problems:
http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/pdreview.html
As for the Tatung, I've found very little info on XTal DOS, apart from
something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M
called Xtal DOS."
http://www.tuicool.com/articles/myEBvq
Anyone got more?
Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein?
It runs soemthing called
XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same).
I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder
how common "almost CP/M" variants were... 
28 Aug
28 Aug
2:27 p.m.
PRODOS is Apple (6502) and not Z80 that I know of.
For Z80 there is UZIUnix, basically unix for Z80s and best used with a
memory mapped system with a lot of ram.
CP/M is flexible and can be rommed though it's more flexible if not in rom
as it is over layable. As to native commands there are enough and external
utilities can fill the gaps and since there were also third party
utilities that
list was extensible. Not to leave out CP/M clones such as ZRDOS, SUPRDOS,
and a few others that did add even more flexibility.
Then there are the vendor specific DOSs, Chromix, NS*DOS, HDOS, FDOS, and
Helios, that only ran on vendor specific systems usually most tightly
tied to the disk subsystem. For example NS*DOS was tied the NS* minidisk
controllerass most of the dos it self was the driver for the disk system
(the controller
was very dumb and the CPU did all the lifting save for the high speed data
serialization. As a result it was not easily ported to any other
controller.
CP/M had the advantatge that a program written on a kaypro would run on
ANY Platform that ran a standard flavor of CP/M making for the widest cross
vendor software platform. Added to that that CP/M could be run on any
vendor
specific disk subsystem just by creating an suitable BIOS and many
third party
vendors did. Was it the best, not so much, but it was a common system
on the
8080/z80 world making a lot of software available.
Allison
On 08/28/2012 04:22 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25 August 2012 15:29, Jules Richardson
<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
That's a really
interesting question, actually, I would say.
[Does a bit of Googling]
There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro.
The only one I saw or used was a Disk Pack:
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_Z80DiscPack.pdf
There was a time, when I was about 13 or 14, when I thought that this
was about *the* most powerful and desirable computer setup I'd ever
seen or heard of. ;?)
What I had not appreciated until now was that Torch's version of CP/M
was a special one, which ran from ROM. That is apparently why they
called it CPN instead.
There was also a standalone 2nd processor, no disk drives:
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/8bit_Upgrades/Torch_Z802ndproc.html
There's a user manual for a CPN system here:
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/docs/Torch/Torch_ZDPUG.pdf
It contains a little non-technical info:
?
the TORCH CPN operating
system, (a 16K ROM containing a CP/M compatible "look alike")
?
?
INTRODUCTION
The TORCH CPN operating system which is a CP/M "look alike" has
much more flexibility than conventional CP/M. It has more "built in"
commands and is easier to use. The most significant advantage of the
TORCH CPN operating system, is that it is stored in ROM (Read Only
Memory) rather than on disc. This means that on "power up" the TORCH
disc pack and BBC micro are automatically ready to accept instructions
typed in at the keyboard.
?
Another CP/M compatible OS I was aware of was Pro-DOS for the MGT SAM Coup?:
http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/whatisprodos.html
?
What is Pro-DOS?
Pro-DOS could be thought of as a Disk Operating System (DOS), However,
it is more than this, it is a full Operating System that Provides
compatibility with CP/M 2.2.
In simple terms this means that a whole world of software that was
designed to run under CP/M 2.2. will now run on the SAM Coup?. Pro-DOS
uses the same Disk format as the Amstrad PCW 8256 and, as a result, it
can read disks from this machine direct, this also Means that there is
a vast range of software already available from sources such as Public
Domain libraries.
?
I hadn't realised it was by virus writer Chris "The Black Baron" Pile,
who was imprisoned for writing Queeg, SMEG and Pathogen:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Pile_(programmer)
It is an admitted reverse-engineered effort as you can find from this
interesting review, complete with an account of nostalgia-destroying
8-bit compatibility problems:
http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/pdreview.html
As for the Tatung, I've found very little info on XTal DOS, apart from
something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M
called Xtal DOS."
http://www.tuicool.com/articles/myEBvq
Anyone got more?
Any more CP/M-compatible Z80 OSs?
Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein?
It runs soemthing called
XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same).
I think
that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder
how common "almost CP/M" variants were...
6:19 p.m.
On 28 August 2012 22:27, allison <ajp166 at verizon.net> wrote:
PRODOS is Apple (6502) and not Z80 that I know of.
Did I say *anything* about Apple II? No. Did I say PRODOS? No. Did I
in fact say "Pro-DOS" with a hyphen and the first word having only an
initial cap? Did I specify the machine it ran on, give a link to info,
a review of it, a profile of its author and more?
How strange. Why yes I did. Yes, I carefully spelled out that I was
talking about the SAM Coup? OS.
For Z80 there is UZIUnix, basically unix for Z80s and
best used with a
memory mapped system with a lot of ram.
Erm, how is that a CP/M clone or CP/M-compatible?
--
Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 ? Cell: +44 7939-087884
30 Aug
30 Aug
3:05 a.m.
On 08/28/2012 09:19 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
There is a version that has the CP/M api and will run CP/M programs.
But the first
appearance of the question was ANY Z80 OS.
Allison
On 28 August 2012 22:27, allison <ajp166 at
verizon.net> wrote:
I ran all possible combination for Pro-dos here and only the one used by
apple comes up.
From this side of the pond thats a never heard of.
PRODOS is Apple (6502) and not Z80 that I know
of.
Did I say *anything* about Apple II? No. Did I say PRODOS? No. Did I
in fact say "Pro-DOS" with a hyphen and the first word having only an
initial cap? Did I specify the machine it ran on, give a link to info,
a review of it, a profile of its author and more? How strange. Why yes I did. Yes, I carefully spelled
out that I was
talking about the SAM Coup? OS.
Again never heard here and likely in my generalized
comments on vendor
and hardware specific OSs.
For Z80 there
is UZIUnix, basically unix for Z80s and best used with a
memory mapped system with a lot of ram.
Erm, how is that a CP/M clone or
CP/M-compatible?
6:09 a.m.
There's also MSX-DOS 1. While the overall user interface was more like
MS-DOS, at least version 1.x was more or less binary compatible with
CP/M, provided that the CP/M files were copied to a FAT-format floppy.
MSX-DOS 2, however, added many more features of MS-DOS 2.x and 3.x and
was somewhat less CP/M compatible.
Mike
7:12 a.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told it was based on the 68K
CPM that was mostly C code.
If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the
monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a
replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work.
One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232.
I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but
it can use up to 512K.
There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run.
Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in
our group get it.
Dwight
1:44 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told it was
based on the 68K
CPM that was mostly C code.
If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the
monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a
replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work.
One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232.
I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but
it can use up to 512K.
There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run.
Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in
our group get it.
I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips
and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring
it back to life somehow.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:21 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi Dave There is quite a bit of stuff on line. If it uses the
360 drive ( rated at 320 forthe M20 ). We can transfer a lot of software to it from
archives.We have many manuals, some in Italian but most have English versions.We have a
schamatic that is mostly correct.Do a search and you see it all.Dwight
The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told
it was based on the 68K
CPM that was mostly C code.
If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the
monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a
replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work.
One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232.
I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but
it can use up to 512K.
There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run.
Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in
our group get it.
I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips
and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring
it back to life somehow.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
2:27 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 08/30/2012 05:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Cool. Thanks!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi Dave There is quite a bit of stuff on line. If it uses the 360 drive ( rated at
320 forthe M20 ). We can transfer a lot of software to it from archives.We have many
manuals, some in Italian but most have English versions.We have a schamatic that is mostly
correct.Do a search and you see it all.Dwight The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told
it was based on the 68K
CPM that was mostly C code.
If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the
monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a
replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work.
One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232.
I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but
it can use up to 512K.
There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run.
Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in
our group get it.
I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips
and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring
it back to life somehow.
25 Dec
25 Dec
11:05 a.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
Hi Dave Did you get the M20 on ebay?If so I find it interesting that your having problems
with the 6300.It is too bad that the monitor got damaged.I'm told that the signals are
compatable between this monitorand the M20's monitor. The connectors are completely
different.On the 6300 monitor, is the tube busted? If so, these arerelatively easy to find
a similar size to fit. Even if not, a temporarysetup can be made to use a different
tube.Dwight
Date: Thu, 30 Aug 2012 17:27:57 -0400
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 08/30/2012 05:21 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Cool. Thanks!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
On 08/30/2012 10:12 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi Dave There is quite a bit of stuff on line. If it uses the 360 drive ( rated at
320 forthe M20 ). We can transfer a lot of software to it from archives.We have many
manuals, some in Italian but most have English versions.We have a schamatic that is mostly
correct.Do a search and you see it all.Dwight The olivetti M20 has a CPM for it. I'm told
it was based on the 68K
CPM that was mostly C code.
If any one is interested, there is an M20 on ebay. Too bad it is missing the
monitor. It was said to use different scan rates and is difficult to find a
replacement. I'm told that the M24 monitor can be made to work.
One can also use the boot sequence to us an external RS232.
I wonder what memory confiuration it has. Most were 224K but
it can use up to 512K.
There is a PASCAL for it as well but that takes +300K to run.
Anyway it is a cool Z8000 machine. I'd love to see someone in
our group get it.
I'll see if I can grab it. I've done a bunch with Z8000s (both chips
and systems built around them) and I like them. I'll see if I can bring
it back to life somehow.
11:34 a.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/25/2012 02:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi Dave Did you get the M20 on ebay?
Hi! Merry xmas! Yes I did, and amusingly, that same seller actually
had TWO, and a local friend of mine got the other one. :-)
If so I find it interesting that your having problems
with the 6300.
I'm not sure why that would be interesting, but it is what it is. :)
It is too bad that the monitor got damaged.
Yes. I'm not even sure HOW it happened. It has been in a box for
many years, since I received it from a friend. It took a truck trip,
then sat in a storage locker, then sat in my garage, then took a truck
trip up here, sat here for awhile, and I unpacked it just a few days
ago. The outer case is perfect, which I was pleased to see, but then I
noticed a rattle when I turned it over, and then I saw the telltale
"splat" on the inside of the CRT face. :-(
The machine is in mint condition, as is the keyboard. I'm hoping to
get it running in an all-original setup. These little Olivetti machines
are amazingly well-built and I really like their style.
I'm told that the signals are compatable between
this
monitorand the M20's monitor. The connectors are completely
different.On the 6300 monitor, is the tube busted? If so, these
arerelatively easy to find a similar size to fit. Even if not, a
temporarysetup can be made to use a different tube.Dwight
Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will
drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter?
I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have
the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are
pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:42 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
The schematic for the M20 is on the web someplace. I think that itis on Chris
Grossler's site. It has a few differences between models butthe edge connector should
be there on one of the last pages.As I recall, the M20 also supplied the power for the
monitor. I'mnot sure if that is the same for the 6300. What memory cards did the M20
come with?Dwight
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 14:34:20 -0500
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/25/2012 02:05 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi Dave Did you get the M20 on ebay?
Hi! Merry xmas! Yes I did, and amusingly, that same seller actually
had TWO, and a local friend of mine got the other one. :-)
If so I find it interesting that your having
problems with the 6300.
I'm not sure why that would be interesting, but it is what it is. :)
It is too bad that the monitor got damaged.
Yes. I'm not even sure HOW it happened. It has been in a box for
many years, since I received it from a friend. It took a truck trip,
then sat in a storage locker, then sat in my garage, then took a truck
trip up here, sat here for awhile, and I unpacked it just a few days
ago. The outer case is perfect, which I was pleased to see, but then I
noticed a rattle when I turned it over, and then I saw the telltale
"splat" on the inside of the CRT face. :-(
The machine is in mint condition, as is the keyboard. I'm hoping to
get it running in an all-original setup. These little Olivetti machines
are amazingly well-built and I really like their style.
I'm told that the signals are compatable
between this
monitorand the M20's monitor. The connectors are completely
different.On the 6300 monitor, is the tube busted? If so, these
arerelatively easy to find a similar size to fit. Even if not, a
temporarysetup can be made to use a different tube.Dwight
Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will
drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter?
I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have
the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are
pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:49 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/25/2012 03:42 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
The schematic for the M20 is on the web someplace. I
think that itis
on Chris Grossler's site. It has a few differences between models
butthe edge connector should be there on one of the last pages.As I
recall, the M20 also supplied the power for the monitor.
Excellent. Thanks for the info!
I'mnot sure if that is the same for the 6300.
The 6300's monochrome monitor draws power along the same cable from
the computer. The color monitor is separately powered.
What memory cards did the M20 come with?
I don't know; I've not yet dug into it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:42 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
Hi Dave The cover comes off by just the two flat head screws.You'll find the
enginering on the case to be well done. The reason I said it was interesting was the
connection betweenthe M20 and the 6300.There was even a compatability board for the 6300
to run M20software.Dwight
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 15:49:58 -0500
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/25/2012 03:42 PM, dwight elvey wrote:
The schematic for the M20 is on the web
someplace. I think that itis
on Chris Grossler's site. It has a few differences between models
butthe edge connector should be there on one of the last pages.As I
recall, the M20 also supplied the power for the monitor.
Excellent. Thanks for the info!
I'mnot sure if that is the same for the 6300.
The 6300's monochrome monitor draws power along the same cable from
the computer. The color monitor is separately powered.
What memory cards did the M20 come with?
I don't know; I've not yet dug into it.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA 
26 Dec
26 Dec
2:29 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
you all are making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the M20 (the M24 is the actual
equivalent).
That is a slamming machine though if you managed to get your hands on one. I'm jelli
2:58 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/26/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
you all are making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the
M20 (the M24 is the actual equivalent).
Equivalent? Hardly; it's the same damn machine. ;) But no, we know
they're quite different. We were talking about the design similarities.
That is a slamming machine though if you managed to
get your hands on one. I'm jelli
The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of them do, in fact, slam.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
3:11 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/26/2012 02:58 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of
them do, in fact, slam.
Do you also have the Z8000 add-in card for the M24/6300? Have you ever
installed the Zilog serial chip in the M24 and used it?
--Chuck
3:21 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/26/2012 06:11 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
No, sadly. My only hands-on experience with the 6300 was when it was
a current product; I worked at a computer store that sold and serviced
them. That machine was in the showroom, and I used it quite a bit when
there were no customers around. We couldn't do much hacking with it.
I have a 6300 now, which I've been talking about in the past few days
with the dead CRT etc, but I've not yet powered it up.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
The 6300 or
the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of them do, in fact,
slam.
Do you also have the Z8000 add-in card for the M24/6300? Have you ever
installed the Zilog serial chip in the M24 and used it?
3:18 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
On 12/26/2012 05:29 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
you all are making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the
M20 (the M24 is the actual equivalent).
? Equivalent?? Hardly; it's the same damn machine. ;)? But no, we know
they're quite different.? We were talking about the design similarities.
C: "Same damn"..."equivalent"...o man head hurts.
That is a slamming machine though if you managed to
get your hands on one. I'm jelli
? The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-))? Both of them do, in fact, slam.
C: I was referencing the M20. The 6300/M24/Xerox 6040 (IIRC) is cool enough but nowhere
near as cool
???? I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all back together? The
box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved the floppy and hard drive at least.
27 Dec
27 Dec
7:36 a.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/26/2012 06:18 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Sorry for the nitpick.
Uh yeah. And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis. WTF man?
It's not like the boards will fit in anything else.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
you all are
making me crazy, comparing the 6300 to the M20 (the M24
is the actual equivalent).
Equivalent? Hardly; it's the same damn machine. ;) But no, we know
they're quite different. We were talking about the design
similarities.
C: "Same damn"..."equivalent"...o man head hurts. That is a
slamming machine though if you managed to get your hands
on one. I'm jelli
The 6300 or the M20? (I have both! B-)) Both of them do, in fact,
slam.
C: I was referencing the M20. The 6300/M24/Xerox 6040 (IIRC) is cool
enough but nowhere near as cool
I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all
back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved
the floppy and hard drive at least.
3:41 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
From: Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>
I only have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me
hook it all
back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved
the floppy and hard drive at least.
? Uh yeah.? And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis.? WTF man?
It's not like the boards will fit in anything else.
?C: You can make them fit in anything if you're determined.
????? You didn't answer my question though...
5:31 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/27/2012 06:41 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Ah, I guess I thought it was rhetorical.
Ordinarily I'd be up for it, but the last time I saw the innards of
one of these machines was about 1985...I doubt I'd be of much help.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I only have
the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all
back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved
the floppy and hard drive at least.
Uh yeah. And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis. WTF man?
It's not like the boards will fit in anything else.
C: You can make them fit in anything if you're determined.
You didn't answer my question though...
8:03 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
Hi I started this when I was talking about the monitor. Although, the M24/6300has a
different connector, I've been told that the monitor was compatablewith either.The M20
had a 8086 board that was made to handle some DOS programs.To bad most couldn't use
the M20's color graphics.Olivetti also made a M20 compatable add on board for the
M20/6300to keep there customers happy.The M20 ws originally intended to use the memory
management chip fromZilog but it never happened. It used a mapping ROM that allowed
theZ8000 to use 128K within one segement by splitting the code space fromthe data
space.Still, even though the Z8001 could address 1Meg of memory, the M20 couldonly take
512K. This was because several parts of memory needed to haveto logical mirror address.
Especially those that were for code space only.These needed to have a data space address
as well to be able to loadfrom disk. This dual memory makes it neccesary to have a memory
maphandy when using the debugger. Break points need to be entered as dataspace and well as
any code editing.This memory mapping is partly why getting an emulator running has
beendifficult. One fellow in Germny is still working on it.Dwight
Date: Thu, 27 Dec 2012 20:31:30 -0500
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/27/2012 06:41 PM, Chris Tofu wrote:
Ah, I guess I thought it was rhetorical.
Ordinarily I'd be up for it, but the last time I saw the innards of
one of these machines was about 1985...I doubt I'd be of much help.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I only
have the board set from a 6300. Want to help me hook it all
back together? The box was rusty so I chucked it. Should have saved
the floppy and hard drive at least.
Uh yeah. And a wire wheel and some paint for the chassis. WTF man?
It's not like the boards will fit in anything else.
C: You can make them fit in anything if you're determined.
You didn't answer my question though... 
25 Dec
25 Dec
1:52 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's
interesting that the M20 will
drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter?
I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have
the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are
pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that.
And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is!
2:14 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Yes, the CRT
is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will
drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter?
I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have
the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are
pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that.
And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is!
2:25 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
Any monocromatic CRT of same phisical size will fit. They are mostly
equal!
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas
wrote:
Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Yes, the
CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will
drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter?
I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have
the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are
pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that.
And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is!
2:31 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
Yes I'm aware of that. I just plain *don't have any*, though.
-Dave
On 12/25/2012 05:25 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Any monocromatic CRT of same phisical size will fit. They are mostly
equal!
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at
neurotica.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas
wrote:
Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Yes, the
CRT is physically broken. It's interesting that the M20 will
drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter?
I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have
the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are
pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that.
And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is!
5:58 p.m.
New subject: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
I found the connector pins in the manual.It says J5 and the numbers run from 11 to 30?They
are top and bottom. 11-29 odd are all grounds.12 HSYNC14 +12V16 B/W Video18 GND20 VSYNC22
+12V24 BLUE26 GREEN28 RED30 Spare In order to do color, you need to have color RAM cards.
Theyhave parallel to serial chips that are used to move the video.Each of the three
expansions would have info for the three colors.With all three cards supporting color, you
can have up to 8 colors.Dwight
Date: Tue, 25 Dec 2012 17:31:50 -0500
From: mcguire at neurotica.com
To:
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
Yes I'm aware of that. I just plain *don't have any*, though.
-Dave
On 12/25/2012 05:25 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
Any monocromatic CRT of same phisical size will fit. They are mostly
equal!
---
Enviado do meu Motorola PT550
Meu site: http://www.tabalabs.com.br
----- Original Message ----- From: "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at
neurotica.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2012 8:14 PM
Subject: Re: olivetti m20 and CPM8000
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA On 12/25/2012 04:52 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas
wrote:
> Yes, the CRT is physically broken. It's
interesting that the M20 will
> drive this monitor; do you have the pinouts so I can make an adapter?
> I'll try to get more than one 6300 monitor. Of course I'd love to have
> the M20 all-original as well, but those monitors (as you know) are
> pretty scarce so I don't have much hope for that.
And why not change just the CRT? You know how easy it is!
Because I don't happen to have another one kicking around.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
30 Aug
30 Aug
10:09 a.m.
On 08/30/2012 09:09 AM, Michael Kerpan wrote:
There's also MSX-DOS 1. While the overall user
interface was more like
MS-DOS, at least version 1.x was more or less binary compatible with
CP/M, provided that the CP/M files were copied to a FAT-format floppy.
MSX-DOS 2, however, added many more features of MS-DOS 2.x and 3.x and
was somewhat less CP/M compatible.
Mike
Since M$dos has a user interface that was a superset of CP/M
And MSXdos is like M$dos then CP/M and MSXdos had near
identical user interfaces. Correct?
The problem with MSXdos was it's machine specific and rare.
I'd love to play with it bout only if I can launch it on some
hardware on hand. Being hardware specific and no docs
doing that is difficult.
Actually if the file system is different then 100% CP/M compatibility
is not likely as there were a few apps out there that did work at the
underlying system level and would brake if it found a differnt disk file
layout. For most high level applications this was usually not an issue
until things like terminal compatibility were encountered.
Allison
29 Aug
29 Aug
8:40 a.m.
On 08/28/2012 03:22 PM, Liam Proven wrote:
On 25 August 2012 15:29, Jules
Richardson<jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote:
Yes, quite a few - plus various self-contained machines which used the BBC
board as an I/O processor. Most of them vanished to landfill years ago, it
seems, and are quite rare these days (mainly because they didn't have any
particular following back in the day, so nobody kept hold of them).
I've still got examples of all their boards, and a Graduate, and I think I
kept a 725 - but I got shot of my disc packs[1] and C-series machine.
[1] as well as the usual brown-cased one, I had a prototype one in the same
cream/grey as the 700-series, Unicorn and Graduate cases. I have no idea
why Torch went with "1970's brown" for the production ones!
On 08/23/2012 04:02 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
That's a really interesting question, actually, I would say.
[Does a bit of Googling]
There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro. Does a non-CP/M box count? The Tatung Einstein?
It runs soemthing called
XtalDOS which is very CP/M-like (I think most of the calls are the same).
I think that was true of Torch CP/N too, wasn't it? Which makes me wonder
how common "almost CP/M" variants were... There was also a standalone 2nd processor, no disk
drives:
http://acorn.chriswhy.co.uk/8bit_Upgrades/Torch_Z802ndproc.html
They did four that I know of:
Communicator (as referenced in the link)
Tosca - as Communicator, but also with a local Z80 SIO
Neptune - 8MHz m68k + Z80, 1MB max RAM
Atlas - 10MHz m68k + Z80, 4MB max RAM
Communicator and Tosca would run CPN, Neptune and Atlas would run CPN and
Unix (System III).
They seem to exist variously in the wild as standalone boards, sold in
cased add-ons for BBC machines (e.g. Unicorn range), and as part of
all-in-one Torch systems (700-series, C-series etc.)
?
the TORCH CPN operating
system, (a 16K ROM containing a CP/M compatible "look alike")
?
I can't recall now if CPN existed solely on the BBC side of things, or if
part of it was in the ROM on the copro ('CCCPN' on the Neptune boards and
'CCCP' on everything else).
Another CP/M compatible OS I was aware of was Pro-DOS
for the MGT SAM Coup?:
http://www.samcoupe-pro-dos.co.uk/whatisprodos.html
Neat. For a long time I wanted a SAM Coup?, but then of course bigger and
better things came along. Quite an amazing machine for the time, though.
As for the Tatung, I've found very little info on
XTal DOS, apart from
something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M
called Xtal DOS."
Yes, no experience there myself... I think I've only ever used an Einstein
for about 5 minutes :)
cheers
Jules
12:10 p.m.
There were, it
seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the BBC Micro.
Yes, quite a few - plus various self-contained machines which used the BBC
board as an I/O processor. Most of them vanished to landfill years ago, it seems, and are quite rare these days (mainly because
they didn't have any
particular following back in the day, so nobody kept hold of them).
I've still got examples of all their boards, and a Graduate, and I think I
kept a 725 - but I got shot of my disc packs[1] and C-series machine.
_All_ their boards? I am impressed. A quad-X is not at all easy to find...
As for the
Tatung, I've found very little info on XTal DOS, apart from
something calling it " a compatible but beefed-up version of CP/M
called Xtal DOS."
Yes, no experience there myself... I think I've only ever used an Einstein
for about 5 minutes :)
30 Aug
30 Aug
6:36 a.m.
On 08/29/2012 02:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote:
There were also later Torch machines that were stnadalone units without a
BBC micro board. They ere not Z80 based (68K machines IIRC). But you
mentioend hte Graduate which wasn't a Z80 machine either (8088 MS-DOS
coprocessor of the beeb) so I guess you're conisdering all their products.
Yeah, I kind of strayed into non-Z80 territory :-) It was more a case of
pointing out that Torch made quite a vast range of stuff, but often the
Communicator and the twin-floppy units are the only things that people have
seen.
Well, I really meant just their beeb-related stuff, but I do have a Quad-X.
I actually had two, but one's at Bletchley these days. I never did have a
TPW or a Quad-Y though, so the collection never was complete :-)
Nice machines, from what I recall - it's a shame they didn't catch on, but
I suppose they were just too late into the game.
cheers
Jules
There were, it seems, various Torch Z80 addons for the
BBC Micro.
Yes, quite a few - plus various self-contained machines which used the BBC
board as an I/O processor. Most of them vanished to landfill years ago, it seems, and are
quite rare these days (mainly because they didn't have any
particular following back in the day, so nobody kept hold of them).
I've still got examples of all their boards, and a Graduate, and I think I
kept a 725 - but I got shot of my disc packs[1] and C-series machine.
_All_ their boards? I am impressed. A quad-X is not at all easy to find... Yes, no
experience there myself... I think I've only ever used an Einstein
for about 5 minutes :)
I've got an Eitstein, but I've never done much XtalDos hackeing. It does
feel a lot like CP/M and from what I recall when a friend ported Fig
Forth and Argon chess to the Eintein there were not problems at all.
2:42 p.m.
Yeah, I kind of strayed into non-Z80 territory :-) It
was more a case of
pointing out that Torch made quite a vast range of stuff, but often the
Communicator and the twin-floppy units are the only things that people have
seen.
Somewhwere I have Torch lightpen for the Beeb. The lightpen itself is a
well-made anodised aluminuim thing, and I am pretty sure it was a
commercial device not made by Torch. It ends i a 5 pi nDIN plug with the
right pinput to fit a Gemini (Nascom++) video board.. The itenrfce is a
cheap plastc box that plugs into the 'aanlogue port' of the Beeb, from
which it draws 5V power. Of course the ligthpen output is fet into the
apporpirate pin of said port and thus to the 6845 in tge beeb. The
interface is essentially a switching regualtor to get the 12V needed fo
the lightpen from the 5V supply.
[Tatung Einstein]
Nice machines, from what I recall - it's a shame
they didn't catch on, but
I suppose they were just too late into the game.
It has some features in common with the BBC micro, but of course it's Z80
based. From what I remember :
The processor is a Z80A with 64K DRAM and a boot ROM which can be
swtiched in in place of 16K of said RAM. There's a fairly complete
machine code monitor (called 'MOS' (!)) in the ROM. It even has commands
to read and write disk sectors. One crazy feature, IIRC, is that this ROM
swithcing is controleld by a toggle flip-flip. A reference to a
particualr port address will swith hte ROM in if it's currently out and
vice versa. There's no way to force the ROM to be mapped in (other than a
hardware reset, whcih clears the flip-flop) or out. I seem ot remember
the Capp Lock LED is controlled in the same way which emans if you toggle
the FF once from your program (and change nothing else), the LED will be
in the wrong state until the next hardware reset.
The I/O chips include an AY-3-8910 sound chip. The poerts of this go to
the keyboard (scanned in software). A Z80A-PIO provides a Centroincs
pritner port and a user port. An 8251 provides an RS2232 port (with a
Z80A-CTC as the baud rate generator). The RS232 port is on a 5 pin
quincuncial DIN plug, but wired so that flipping it over does a
null-modem swap. The DSR and DTR signals are buffered ot RS23 levels and
end up on labelled solder pads on the PCB. An ADC0844 chip provided 4
analogue input channels, offocially for 2 joysticks. There are seaprate
DIN connectors for the 2 joysticks, not a common connector as on the Beeb
There is no cassette port, a floppy controller (WD1770) is standard. So
is a single 3" drive. There is space for another internal drive, and a
connecotr for exeenal drives. I think you can have up too 4 drives total.
It's a standard shugart bus, so you cna add 3.5" or 5.25" drives.
The video system uses the 50Hz version of the TMS9918 (I forget the
number) with 16K of video RAM There is a PAL wencoder and RF modualtor on
the board. There is also a montiutor csocket. Internal links select
between RGB and YUV on this connector, the latter being the factory
setting. This video system is what lets te machine down compared to the
BBC micro, there is no 80 column text mode. There was an 80 column
text-only add-on (it used a 6845 + RAM + cahracter genrator + glue
logic), but it's not at all easy to find. It is supported by the monitor
ROM, though.
-tony
cheers
Jules
4145
days inactive
4267
days old
33 comments
11 participants
participants (11)
-
ajp166＠verizon.net -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
cclist＠sydex.com -
dkelvey＠hotmail.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
lproven＠gmail.com -
madcrow.maxwell＠gmail.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
rampaginggreenhulk＠yahoo.com -
wh.sudbrink＠verizon.net