16 Apr
2013
16 Apr
'13
1:10 p.m.
Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
- Dave
16 Apr
16 Apr
2:45 p.m.
On 04/16/2013 04:10 PM, David Riley wrote:
Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Interesting! I've requested an account. Time to read up as well. ;)
Speaking of random public-access systems...if anyone wants access to a
public access (simulation) of 4.3BSD, let me know.
- Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
17 Apr
17 Apr
6:33 a.m.
On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote:
Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if
anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
- MG
6:37 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, MG wrote:
On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote:
*grabs popcorn bowl*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but
if anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
6:45 a.m.
``Want a cold beer with that?'' and sits on the sofa next to geneb...
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 3:37 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, MG wrote:
On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote:
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/**coll <http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll> -
Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but
if anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-**bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY<http://zos.e…
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
*grabs popcorn bowl*
7:11 a.m.
On 17-apr-2013 15:45, Sander Reiche wrote:
``Want a cold beer with that?'' and sits on
the sofa next to geneb...
Well, if it isn't a certain someone who is even too cheap to cover for
shipping costs for a freebie item. Nice of you to stop by and to tag
along.
How many others have you fleeced since then?
- MG
7:14 a.m.
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
- MG
7:49 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here?
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
8:02 a.m.
On 17 April 2013 15:49, Dave Woyciesjes <woyciesjes at sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here?
As long as it isn't sweet popcorn. That stuff's a tool of the devil.
--
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net
--------
"Gregor Samsa awoke one morning to discover that he had been
transformed into a giant cockroach." Nah, it's too good.
--Max Bialystock
8:08 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
There's plenty go go around!
Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
8:53 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 11:08 AM, geneb wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
I may need to drop in a fiver, depending on how this day goes....
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
There's plenty go go
around!
Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator.
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here? *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
9:07 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
On 04/17/2013 11:08 AM, geneb wrote:
It should quiet down after his mom puts him down for his nap.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
I may need to drop in a fiver, depending on how this day goes.... On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
There's plenty go go
around!
Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator.
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
> *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here?
10:24 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 12:07 PM, geneb wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
Yeah, but there's still the meat-space "issues" I got here... ;)
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
On 04/17/2013 11:08 AM, geneb wrote:
It should quiet down after his mom puts him down for his nap.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
I may need to drop in a fiver, depending on how this day goes.... On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
> On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
>> *grabs popcorn bowl*
>
> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
> much more, to just mention a few.
>
> I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely
> like an adult again.
>
> Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
> cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
>
Gene, can I get some of that popcorn over here?
There's plenty go go
around!
Just remember to throw a quarter in the cup if you hit the Kegerator.
9:29 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it
has them!
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
- MG
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
9:37 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 12:29 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it
has them!
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so
he assumes they aren't there.
You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists like
this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated people.
They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
10:13 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 12:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 12:29 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it
has them!
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so
he assumes they aren't there.
Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box
for who could access a file. ;)
MTS has user permissions that you can specify when using the function to
modify the user database.
(If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to
dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.)
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists like
this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated people.
They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Ah. That explains it.
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
11:24 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 01:13 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so
he assumes they aren't there.
Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box
for who could access a file. ;)
They sorta did, actually. (and still do)
> *grabs
popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it
has them! MTS has user permissions that you can specify when
using the function to
modify the user database.
(If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to
dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.)
I smell a time sink! I'm not gonna do it! (right now)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
12:23 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 02:24 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
;) It'll still be up when you get around to it. It runs on a system
that's always on.
On 04/17/2013 01:13 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box
for who could access a file. ;)
They sorta did, actually. (and still do)
You know what I mean. ;)
>> *grabs popcorn bowl*
>
> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
> much more, to just mention a few.
MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it
has them!
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so
he assumes they aren't there. MTS has user permissions that you can specify
when using the function to
modify the user database.
(If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to
dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.)
I smell a time sink! I'm not gonna do it! (right now)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
12:44 p.m.
On 17/04/2013 18:13, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 04/17/2013 12:37 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
So did old UNIX boxes in the days before X-Windows......
On 04/17/2013 12:29 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...so
he assumes they aren't there.
Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box
for who could access a file. ;)
>
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
MTS for one has them! I don't particularly understand it yet, but it
has them! MTS has user permissions that you can specify when
using the function
to modify the user database.
(If you're curious why I keep mentioning MTS...connect a tn3270 to
dev.gimme-sympathy.org port 3270.)
You'll find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists
like
this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated people.
They throw little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Ah. That explains it.
-Dave
12:48 p.m.
On 17-apr-2013 19:13, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Ah! Yeah, old mainframes didn't have a GUI where
you could check a box
for who could access a file. ;)
Neither do many UNIX derivatives and quasi-UNIX (like Linux), nor VMS
and many others, when using just the CLI.
In fact, those IBM "i" and "z" menu structures remind me more of the
mindless world of Windows than the aforementioned operating systems,
to be /completely honest/ with you.
- MG
3:16 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 03:48 PM, MG wrote:
Oh yeah, he's not a troll AT ALL. ;) Aaaa-HAHAHAA!! :-) :-)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Ah! Yeah, old
mainframes didn't have a GUI where you could check a box
for who could access a file. ;)
Neither do many UNIX derivatives and quasi-UNIX (like Linux), nor VMS
and many others, when using just the CLI.
In fact, those IBM "i" and "z" menu structures remind me more of the
mindless world of Windows than the aforementioned operating systems,
to be /completely honest/ with you.
12:46 p.m.
On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote:
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just
can't comprehend...
so he assumes they aren't there.
What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented
restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan
mob after me (like before) here.
Did you ever try to log on there?
You'll find people like this love to hang
around on mailing lists
like this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated
people.
To which category do you belong?
They throw little hand grenades like this into them
for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest
thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic
El Dorado.
- MG
3:05 p.m.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
That is a matter of opinion! I know to which group YOU belong, though, and that's
all that really matters.
Ha!! Kiss my ass.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote:
Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this
before.
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just
can't comprehend...
so he assumes they aren't there.
What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented
restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan
mob after me (like before) here. Did you ever try to log on there?
Nope. I have my own.
You'll
find people like this love to hang around on mailing lists
like this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated
people.
To which category do you belong? They throw
little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest
thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic
El Dorado.
5:49 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
That is a matter of opinion! I know to which group YOU belong, though, and that's
all that really matters.
I think I'm the only one here who is a fan of NT 4, so I think I fit in to
the latter category. ;)
Ha!! Kiss my ass.
Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a
VT420 typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to via
LAT from a DECserver. ;)
On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray
gear.
On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote:
Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this
before.
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just
can't comprehend...
so he assumes they aren't there.
What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented
restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan
mob after me (like before) here. Did you ever try to log on there?
Nope. I have my own.
You'll find people like this love to hang around
on mailing lists
like this one, which are full of both knowledgeable and opinionated
people.
To which category do you belong? They throw little hand grenades like this into them
for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest
thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic
El Dorado.
-Dave
--
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
6:05 p.m.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:49 PM, "Cory Smelosky" <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
Ha!! Kiss my ass.
Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a VT420
typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to via LAT from a
DECserver. ;)
The difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early) 90s, the prick
stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical clue. At least if it wasn't
September.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
I do.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG <marcogb at
xs4all.nl> wrote:
I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray gear. On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote:
Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this
before.
They all do, in ways that the kid probably just
can't comprehend...
so he assumes they aren't there.
What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented
restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan
mob after me (like before) here. Did you ever try to log on there?
Nope. I have my own.
They throw
little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest
thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic
El Dorado.
6:10 p.m.
On Wed, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a VT420
typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to via LAT from a
DECserver. ;)
The difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early) 90s, the prick
stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical clue. At least if it wasn't
September.
Ah. Damn you AOL, why'd you have to go taking away all our nice things?
:(
On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:49 PM, "Cory Smelosky" <b4 at gewt.net> wrote:
Which ones? How many spare System/360s do you have? ;)
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
I do. On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG <marcogb at
xs4all.nl> wrote:
I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I know you have Cray gear.. On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote:
> They all do, in ways that the kid probably just can't comprehend...
> so he assumes they aren't there.
What did I assume? I was openly wondering why they haven't implemented
restrictions on that FanDeZhi system, then I got the usual IBM partisan
mob after me (like before) here.
Nope. You just got your wittle peepee whacked by people who have actually done this
before.
Did you ever try to log on there?
Nope. I have my own.
> They throw little hand grenades like this into
them for fun, usually
> because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest
thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic
El Dorado.
Ha!! Kiss my ass.
-Dave
--
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
6:29 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Which ones?
z/890
S/370 9375
Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts)
P/390 (barely counts)
Yep.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I
know you have Cray gear..
I do. How many spare System/360s do you have? ;)
Heh...I wish! ;)
The
difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early)
90s, the prick stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical
clue. At least if it wasn't September.
Ah. Damn you AOL, why'd you have to go taking away all our nice things? :(
9:49 p.m.
On 17 Apr 2013, at 21:29, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
wrote:
Yep.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Which ones?
z/890
S/370 9375
I wonder if MTS would run on that S/370...
I forget, do you have physical IBM systems too? I
know you have Cray gear..
I do. Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts)
P/390 (barely counts)
;)
How many spare System/360s do you have? ;)
Heh...I wish! ;) The
difference of course being that, in the 80s and (at least very early)
90s, the prick stirring up trouble usually had some sort of a technical
clue. At least if it wasn't September.
Ah. Damn you AOL, why'd you have to go taking away all our nice things? :( 
18 Apr
18 Apr
4:09 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
z/890
S/370 9375
Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts)
P/390 (barely counts)
Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS,
z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay
IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if
anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines
are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford.
(if you'd rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...)
-Andy
>> I forget, do you have physical IBM
systems too? I know you have Cray
gear..
I do.
Which ones?
8:19 p.m.
On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:09, "Andrew Hoerter" <amh at POBOX.COM> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
I do not at present unfortunately. It seems the z/VM evaluation can work on Hercules with
enough work, but my knowledge of the internals of IBM stuff is minimal so I wouldn't
be able to set that up.
I wonder if there's an evaluation or hobbyist z/OS release...
On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
z/890
S/370 9375
Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts)
P/390 (barely counts)
Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS,
z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay
IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if
anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines
are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford. >> I forget, do you have physical IBM
systems too? I know you have Cray
gear..
I do.
Which ones?
(if you'd rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...)
-Andy
19 Apr
19 Apr
1:02 a.m.
On 19/04/2013 04:19, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:09, "Andrew Hoerter" <amh at POBOX.COM> wrote:
The zVM evaluation will boot straight up on a recent build of
Hercules,
but not sure of the legality. Getting it so it runs from real disk
rather than emulated DVD is harder.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
I do not at
present unfortunately. It seems the z/VM evaluation can work on Hercules with enough
work, but my knowledge of the internals of IBM stuff is minimal so I wouldn't be able
to set that up. On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS,
z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay
IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if
anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines
are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford. >> I forget, do you have physical IBM
systems too? I know you have Cray
gear..
> I do.
Which ones?
z/890
S/370 9375
Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts)
P/390 (barely counts)
I wonder if there's an evaluation or hobbyist z/OS
release...
No.
(if you'd
rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...)
-Andy
12:56 a.m.
On 19/04/2013 00:09, Andrew Hoerter wrote:
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 9:29 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Basically "NO" , there are no reduced charges. You can download the
zVM
eval but it needs a pretty recent machine to run on and its only legal
to run it for a limited period of time.
You used to be able to get IBM software on a "one time charge" basis but
usually folks transfer that licence to the new machine.
On 04/17/2013 09:10 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
z/890
S/370 9375
Multiprise 3000 (sorta counts)
P/390 (barely counts)
Out of curiosity, do you have any of these running with a recent OS (z/OS,
z/VM)? When I investigated the possibility it seemed like you had to pay
IBM at least a few hundred bucks a month in licensing, I was wondering if
anything has changed for hobbyists now that even 64-bit z series machines
are available used at prices a mere mortal could potentially afford.
(if you'd rather not answer in public for some reason, I understand...)
-Andy >> I forget, do you have physical IBM
systems too? I know you have Cray
gear..
I do.
Which ones?
18 Apr
18 Apr
9:44 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 08:49 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Ha!! Kiss my ass.
Hmmm. It sure feels like it's the 1980s/1990s Usenet...i'm sitting at a
VT420 typing on an LK201 with Alpine running on a PII i'm connected to
via LAT from a DECserver. ;)
Nice...
Nothing like the appropriate hardware to match the conversation...
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Apr 17, 2013, at 3:46 PM, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
>> On 17-apr-2013 18:37, Dave McGuire wrote:
.......
They throw
little hand grenades like this into them for fun, usually
because they haven't figured out how to jerk the gherkin yet.
Didn't you threaten me with violence a while back? Not the wisest
thing you can do. It's not the 1980s Usenet, it's not an electronic
El Dorado.
17 Apr
17 Apr
9:35 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;)
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few. I guess I was asking for too much. Glad you're
taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
9:59 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 12:35 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;) *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few. I guess I was asking for too much. Glad
you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it?
-Dave
10:18 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 12:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS.
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;) *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few. I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial
transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
11:18 a.m.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants?
- Dave
I mean that
doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
12:05 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 02:18 PM, David Riley wrote:
On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants?
I was referring to MS-DOS, but DOS/360 WOULD have handled transactions
at one point. ;)
I mean
that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
- Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
12:17 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 02:18 PM, David Riley wrote:
On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire
at neurotica.com> wrote:
Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants?
Possibly, but even MS-DOS is older than Cory, so that was my
assumption. ;) Right Cory? ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I mean
that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
1:49 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 03:17 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 02:18 PM, David Riley wrote:
Yup. ;)
On Apr 17, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Perhaps he meant DOS/360 or its descendants?
Possibly, but even MS-DOS is older than Cory, so that was my
assumption. ;) Right Cory? ;) I mean
that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
11:52 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 01:18 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Good point. I was thinking more small-scale.
On 04/17/2013 12:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS.
They may have only used it for the web frontend, I don't remember.
True! No way in hell would a bank use windows. ;)
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
> *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;) I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for
financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
-Dave
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
12:04 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a
few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
So long as each transaction can be handled in a few hundred clock cycles
(including all overhead), then a 5150 would be marginally adequate.
(~41,212,800,000 clock cycles per day)
That does not leave enough overhead to support Windoze with dancing
kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish.
Are the bugs out of the corn popper?
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
12:11 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 17 April 2013 18:18
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
On 04/17/2013 12:59 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS.
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building-
Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym
ents-Service/4000008133
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
> *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks
Windows machines process financial transactions. ;) I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for
financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
So, what DOS machine would handle processing, say, a few hundreds of
millions of transactions during a twenty-hour batch window? ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
1:35 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 03:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS.
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building-
Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym
ents-Service/4000008133
I haven't laughed that hard in a LONG time!
The last time I laughed that hard was when I read about "Microsoft HPC". :)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
>> *grabs
popcorn bowl*
>
> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
> much more, to just mention a few.
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks
Windows machines process financial transactions. ;)
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
18 Apr
18 Apr
11:15 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: 17 April 2013 21:36
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
On 04/17/2013 03:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide- Bui
Here is another example:
http://www.temenos.com/news-and-events/news/2012/bank-sinopac-goes-live-with
-temenos-t24-on-microsoft-windows-server-and-sql-server-to-fuel-innovation-a
nd-gain-competitive-edge/
>>> *grabs popcorn bowl*
>>
>> Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
>> things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
>> much more, to just mention a few.
>
> I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks
> Windows machines process financial transactions. ;)
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
Did they? They may have but I'm talking about BANKS. lding-
Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faste
r-Paym
ents-Service/4000008133
I haven't laughed that hard in a LONG time!
The last time I laughed that hard was when I read
about "Microsoft HPC".
:)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
17 Apr
17 Apr
4:11 p.m.
On 17-apr-2013 21:11, Rob Jarratt wrote:
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building-
Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym
ents-Service/4000008133
Keep the FBI phone number handy, just in case McGuire 'loses it'
(again).
- MG
7:03 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 07:11 PM, MG wrote:
On 17-apr-2013 21:11, Rob Jarratt wrote:
AHAHAHAAAHAHHA!!
Moron.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
http://www.microsoft.com/casestudies/Microsoft-Services/Nationwide-Building-
Society/Delivery-Partner-Helps-Nationwide-Deploy-High-Performing-Faster-Paym
ents-Service/4000008133
Keep the FBI phone number handy, just in case McGuire 'loses it'
(again).
12:50 p.m.
On 17-apr-2013 18:59, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
Be careful, the IBM zealots/fundamentalists might lynch you for that
remark.
- MG
3:32 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 03:50 PM, MG wrote:
Nope, not a troll!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Didn't
PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
Be careful, the IBM zealots/fundamentalists might lynch you for that
remark. 
18 Apr
18 Apr
6:13 a.m.
MG wrote:
On 17-apr-2013 18:59, Cory Smelosky wrote:
<Cornholio>Are you threatening me?</Cornholio>
Peace... Sridhar
Didn't PayPal use Windows NT for awhile?
I mean that doesn't make it /GOOD/ for financial transactions...I'd
prefer DOS or VMS handle financial transactions. ;)
Be careful, the IBM zealots/fundamentalists might lynch you for that
remark.
17 Apr
17 Apr
10:01 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;)
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few. I guess I was asking for too much. Glad
you're taking it nicely
like an adult again.
Either way, you're dismissed. You can go play again in your
cockpit, you tough virtual fighter pilot.
It's awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it?
12:55 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 02:56 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Sounds painful.
Peace... Sridhar
Shouldn't be too bad. It's only paper.
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks!
This too shall pass.
18 Apr
18 Apr
6:13 a.m.
Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
On 04/17/2013 02:56 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Unless it's coins. :>
Peace... Sridhar
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Sounds painful.
Peace... Sridhar
Shouldn't be too bad. It's only paper.
Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks!
This too shall pass.
9:56 a.m.
On 04/18/2013 09:13 AM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
[ouch]
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
On 04/17/2013 02:56 PM, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
Unless it's coins. :>
Peace... Sridhar
Ethan Dicks wrote:
Shouldn't be too bad. It's only paper. >
> Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks!
This too shall pass.
Sounds painful.
Peace... Sridhar
11:58 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote:
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
You just could NOT resist that, could you? :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks!
This too shall pass. 
4:55 p.m.
On 4/17/13 11:58 AM, "geneb" <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'm traveling, or he wouldn't have beat me to it. :-)
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM, geneb <geneb
at deltasoft.com> wrote:
You just could NOT resist that, could you? :)
Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks!
This too shall pass.
7:30 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote:
On 4/17/13 11:58 AM, "geneb" <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
*high fives Ian*
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Ethan Dicks wrote:
I'm traveling, or he wouldn't have beat me to it. :-)
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 1:01 PM, geneb <geneb
at deltasoft.com> wrote:
You just could NOT resist that, could you? :)
Dammit Dave, your goat just ate my five bucks!
This too shall pass. 
10:28 a.m.
[...] who thinks Windows machines process financial
transactions. ;)
They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents'
desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find
anyone saner in that respect.)
No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows
machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some
senses.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
11:41 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 01:28 PM, Mouse wrote:
Yes, most do use Windows machines as terminals. That's not what we
were discussing, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
[...] who
thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;)
They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents'
desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find
anyone saner in that respect.)
No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows
machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some
senses. 
11:48 a.m.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 10:28 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals. They (at most)
might validate some of the inputs (a bit more than a 3270 might do) but
that's about it. They are more than likely on a network but not the public
Internet.
TTFN - Guy
[...] who
thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;)
They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents'
desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find
anyone saner in that respect.)
No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows
machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some
senses.
2:19 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect
it to.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
5:42 p.m.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Come on over!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect it to. Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
18 Apr
18 Apr
7:16 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Come on over!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect
it to. Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
8:05 a.m.
On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping.
- Dave
On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Come on over!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect it to.
9:15 a.m.
On 04/18/2013 11:05 AM, David Riley wrote:
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :)
Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping.
My friend (another Dave) and I, when he was about 21 and I was maybe 17,
used to joke about selling organs to buy DEUNA cards for our PDP-11s, and run
coax down the highway (Route 95). We lived about 20mi apart, me in NJ and he
in PA. We joked about a telco truck pulling over, one guy picking up the
cable, and saying to his work partner, "Hey Bob? This ours?"
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I'm kinda
bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to.
Come on over!
10 a.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/18/2013 11:05 AM, David Riley wrote:
Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping.
My friend (another Dave) and I, when he was about 21 and I was maybe 17,
used to joke about selling organs to buy DEUNA cards for our PDP-11s, and run
coax down the highway (Route 95). We lived about 20mi apart, me in NJ and he
in PA. We joked about a telco truck pulling over, one guy picking up the
cable, and saying to his work partner, "Hey Bob? This ours?"
How expensive was a DEUNA? ;)
> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA
3270 card and nothing to to connect it to.
Come on over!
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
10:01 a.m.
On 04/18/2013 01:00 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
My friend (another Dave) and I, when he was about 21 and I was maybe 17,
used to joke about selling organs to buy DEUNA cards for our PDP-11s, and run
coax down the highway (Route 95). We lived about 20mi apart, me in NJ and he
in PA. We joked about a telco truck pulling over, one guy picking up the
cable, and saying to his work partner, "Hey Bob? This ours?"
How expensive was a DEUNA? ;)
This was the mid-1980s. They were...expensive.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
>>
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
>> connect it to.
>
> Come on over!
>
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :)
Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping.
9:26 a.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, David Riley wrote:
On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote:
Hrm. Inspired this:
Mount BNC connectors to the ends of a pair of cleaned out soup cans and
hot glue a long bit of string between them. (glue string to solder cup of
the center pin on the BNC connector). Put in a glass-faced case with a
sign that reads "In Case of Network Failure, Break Glass".
I may just have to build one. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals.
>
> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin
client"
>
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to.
Come on over!
10:52 a.m.
On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote:
On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote:
NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is
50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Belden-9268-1000-22-AWG-93-Ohm-RG62A-U-Coax-Cable-N…
You can use 50 Ohm over short distances but the cables should do 1.5
MBits over, think 1500Yds
You can also get Baluns to allow you to run it over UTP CAT1 or higher....
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Really big spool of
RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals.
> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin
client"
>
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to.
Come on over!
- Dave
2:13 p.m.
On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote:
What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made
50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones
and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to
the signal?
- Dave
On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote:
NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is
50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Really big spool
of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
>
> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it
to.
Come on over!
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :)
5:01 p.m.
On 04/18/2013 05:13 PM, David Riley wrote:
All 3270 stuff uses BNC connectors. I don't know offhand which
impedance of BNCs they use (they look like 50-ohm to me) but at those
frequencies, a few MHz, the impedance bump really is minimal.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
NO NO NO NO
NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63....
What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made
50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones
and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to
the signal?
19 Apr
19 Apr
1 a.m.
On 19/04/2013 01:01, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/18/2013 05:13 PM, David Riley wrote:
All 3270 stuff uses BNC connectors. I don't know offhand which
impedance of BNCs they use (they look like 50-ohm to me) but at those
frequencies, a few MHz, the impedance bump really is minimal.
50ohn and 75Ohm BNC look much the same to me. At one time the pins were
different sizes but you needed a micrometer to tell. I think since 1978
they are the same size...
NO NO NO
NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63....
What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made
50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones
and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to
the signal? -Dave
2:07 p.m.
On Apr 19, 2013, at 4:00 AM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com> wrote:
On 19/04/2013 01:01, Dave McGuire wrote:
That would be a surprise to me, but I suppose it's not impossible. I
know we had a problem a few years back confusing 50 and 75 ohm N
connectors; plug in the wrong one and you'll either potentially damage
the receiving end or get an intermittent, hard-to-diagnose connection
(and, obviously, impedance mismatch problems). Fortunately, we only
had the latter, which is good because the receiving device was a very
expensive network analyzer that we were renting, and we're a small
company. The core problem turned out to be that someone had put both
plugs into the same parts bin, and the tech making the cables was
unaware, and it's damn near impossible to visually distinguish them
without a side-by-side comparison.
- Dave
On 04/18/2013 05:13 PM, David Riley wrote:
All 3270 stuff uses BNC connectors. I don't know offhand which impedance of BNCs
they use (they look like 50-ohm to me) but at those frequencies, a few MHz, the impedance
bump really is minimal.
50ohn and 75Ohm BNC look much the same to me. At one time the pins were different
sizes but you needed a micrometer to tell. I think since 1978 they are the same size...
NO NO NO
NO NO! RG58 is 50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63....
What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew, they only made
50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones
and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to
the signal? 
4:17 p.m.
That would be a surprise to me, but I suppose it's
not impossible. I
know we had a problem a few years back confusing 50 and 75 ohm N
connectors; plug in the wrong one and you'll either potentially damage
the receiving end or get an intermittent, hard-to-diagnose connection
(and, obviously, impedance mismatch problems).
This is generally not a problem with BNC, unless they are cheap, picky
connectors. It is a problem with N, however.
Most BNCs can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there
is air around the female end.
--
Will
9:20 p.m.
New subject: BNC connectors (was: Public mainframe system)
In article <CANij+dcNhJin5NMOLE0W6xCpfxeyOKDUrQE5aVu=uTZOYnFXDQ at mail.gmail.com>,
William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com> writes:
Most BNCs can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking
to see if there
is air around the female end.
Which one has the air?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
20 Apr
20 Apr
5:41 a.m.
New subject: BNC connectors
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> writes:
75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric around the centre
pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my
junk box for comparison:
http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg
--
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> <http://offog.org/>
Most BNCs can
be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there
is air around the female end.
Which one has the air? 
6:45 a.m.
New subject: BNC connectors
75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric
around the centre
pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my
junk box for comparison:
http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg
Very nice - illustrates the point well.
However, lots of cheap BNCs from noname companies do not always follow
this rule.
For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does
not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was
popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers,
when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the
machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine.
--
Will
10:24 a.m.
New subject: BNC connectors
On 04/20/2013 06:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
However, lots of cheap BNCs from noname companies do
not always follow
this rule.
For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does
not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was
popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers,
when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the
machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine.
That's true. Back in my days of 10Base2, I found a great deal on 75 ohm
BNC connectors (the quick-connect, with a threaded hole to secure the
coax cable and braid. RG-58 is a bit too small in its OD for the 75 ohm
BNC connectors. I took some thinwall brass tubing that I had on hand to
make up the difference in cable size, soldered the braid to it and
threaded the result into the connector.
It worked just fine with no apparent shortcomings. I think I still have
a length of the cable with said connectors somewhere...
--Chuck
11:25 a.m.
New subject: [cctalk] Re: BNC connectors
On 04/20/2013 01:24 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
A little impedance bump like that will have a minimal effect at those
low-ish frequencies.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
However, lots
of cheap BNCs from noname companies do not always follow
this rule.
For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does
not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was
popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers,
when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the
machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine.
That's true. Back in my days of 10Base2, I found a great deal on 75 ohm BNC
connectors (the quick-connect, with a threaded hole to secure the coax cable
and braid. RG-58 is a bit too small in its OD for the 75 ohm BNC
connectors. I took some thinwall brass tubing that I had on hand to make up
the difference in cable size, soldered the braid to it and threaded the
result into the connector.
It worked just fine with no apparent shortcomings. I think I still have a
length of the cable with said connectors somewhere...
6:30 p.m.
New subject: [cctalk] Re: BNC connectors
A little impedance bump like that will have a minimal
effect at those
low-ish frequencies.
I'm reminded of the time I wanted to extend the an AUI Ethernet with a
DA15F, a DA15M, and some cable. I built the extender with about a foot
of ribbon cable grabbed from my ribbon cable stock without even
thinking about impedance and the like. It worked fine. As an
experiment, I made a similar cable with about 25 feet of ribbon cable
and it produced floods of errors, to the point where the Ethernet was
not usable.
Then I worked out that at 10 megabits, a bit on the wire was some
50-100 feet long (figuring effective signal speed as .5 to 1 c, about
right for high-frequency signals in copper twisted pairs), so it wasn't
much of a surprise that a one-foot impedance bump didn't do much but a
25-foot one did.
Mouse
12:26 p.m.
New subject: BNC connectors
On Sat, 20 Apr 2013, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 04/20/2013 06:45 AM, William Donzelli wrote:
Don't forget the joys of vampire taps!
:)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
However, lots of cheap BNCs from noname companies
do not always follow
this rule.
For most of our purposes, using a 50 or 75 Ohm connector really does
not matter. Look at all the rules that were broken when 10base2 was
popular, especially when people added very short little BNC jumpers,
when the Tee was just a little too tight against the back of the
machine. Somehow the stuff still worked fine.
That's true. Back in my days of 10Base2, I found a great deal on 75 ohm BNC
connectors (the quick-connect, with a threaded hole to secure the coax cable
and braid. RG-58 is a bit too small in its OD for the 75 ohm BNC connectors.
I took some thinwall brass tubing that I had on hand to make up the
difference in cable size, soldered the braid to it and threaded the result
into the connector.
7:09 a.m.
New subject: BNC connectors
On 04/20/2013 08:41 AM, Adam Sampson wrote:
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> writes:
75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric around the centre
pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my
junk box for comparison:
http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg
Ah, I had just taken a very similar photo.
Good illustration.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Most BNCs
can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there
is air around the female end.
Which one has the air?
8:29 a.m.
New subject: BNC connectors
In article <y2ahaj1pe76.fsf at cartman.at.offog.org>,
Adam Sampson <ats at offog.org> writes:
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> writes:
75 ohm BNCs, because they have a thinner dielectric around the centre
pin of the female. Here's a selection of male and female BNCs from my
junk box for comparison:
http://offog.org/stuff/bncs.jpg
I confess I find it hard to differentiate between the examples on the
far ends. The ones in the middle are easier to differentiate.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" free book
<http://tinyurl.com/d3d-pipeline>
The Computer Graphics Museum <http://computergraphicsmuseum.org>
The Terminals Wiki <http://terminals.classiccmp.org>
Legalize Adulthood! (my blog) <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
Most BNCs
can be sorted into 50 and 75 Ohm by looking to see if there
is air around the female end.
Which one has the air?
19 Apr
19 Apr
12:48 a.m.
On 18/04/2013 22:13, David Riley wrote:
On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Dave <dave.g4ugm at
gmail.com> wrote:
Check out the planning guide, I am pretty sure its on the IBM web site,
it will have part numbers. I am pretty sure we just used 75 Ohm BNCs but
it was a long time ago, and we only had sort runs..
.. If I remember I'll ask our cabling guy at work. He has been around
long enough and he might remember. For Hams with small gardens 93ohm
co-ax is supposed to be good for feeding G5RVs...
On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote:
What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew,
they only made
50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones
and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to
the signal?
On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote:
NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is
50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect it to.
> Come on over!
>
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :)
Really big spool of RG-58.
If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. - Dave
8:25 a.m.
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
On 18/04/2013 22:13, David Riley wrote:
I wonder if he still has some cable laying around. ;)
On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:52 PM, Dave <dave.g4ugm
at gmail.com> wrote:
Check out the planning guide, I am pretty sure its on the IBM web site,
it will have part numbers. I am pretty sure we just used 75 Ohm BNCs but
it was a long time ago, and we only had sort runs..
... If I remember I'll ask our cabling guy at work. He has been around
long enough and he might remember. For Hams with small gardens 93ohm
co-ax is supposed to be good for feeding G5RVs...
> - Dave On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote:
What's the BNC for, then? As far as I knew,
they only made
50 and 75-ohm BNC jacks. Or did they just use 75 ohm ones
and hope the brief blip on the TDR didn't do too much to
the signal?
On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
>
>> On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
>>> I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect it to.
>> Come on over!
>>
> So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :)
Really big spool of RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping.
NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is
50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63.... 
18 Apr
18 Apr
2:51 p.m.
Crap. Better mark the rg58 as "return to sender".
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave <dave.g4ugm at gmail.com>
Sender: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.orgDate: Thu, 18 Apr 2013 18:52:03
To: General Discussion On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Reply-To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
On 18/04/2013 16:05, David Riley wrote:
On Apr 18, 2013, at 10:16 AM, geneb wrote:
NO NO NO NO NO! RG58 is
50ohm, 3270 is 93 Ohm so RG63....
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Belden-9268-1000-22-AWG-93-Ohm-RG62A-U-Coax-Cable-N…
You can use 50 Ohm over short distances but the cables should do 1.5
MBits over, think 1500Yds
You can also get Baluns to allow you to run it over UTP CAT1 or higher....
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Really big spool of
RG-58. If you ask the UPS guy nicely,
I'm sure he'd let you hold one end of the cable while he
drives over... just make sure you do surface shipping. On Apr 17, 2013, at 5:19 PM, geneb <geneb at
deltasoft.com> wrote:
So how do I get there via that little BNC connector? :) On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
>> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals.
> I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin
client"
>
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to connect it to.
Come on over!
- Dave
17 Apr
17 Apr
5:45 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Can you get it to do TN3270?
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
g.
--
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
7:25 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
No idea. It came with an absolutely pristine 5160 I got about four years
ago.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Can you get it to do TN3270? On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
7:31 p.m.
On Wed, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Unrelated question...but I love how I received this email "Tomorrow".
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
No idea. It came with an absolutely pristine 5160 I got about four years
ago.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Can you get it to do TN3270? On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
7:49 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 08:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
Can you get it to do TN3270?
Those IRMA boards implement a 3270 hardware interface...nothing to do with
IP. TN3270 (as you know) is effectively 3270-over-IP.
The 3270 hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors.
Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment
controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either
a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or
direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe
controller interface), or some other method.
That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Those are for
lack of a better term for them, terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
11:42 p.m.
On 17 Apr 2013, at 22:49, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
wrote:
On 04/17/2013 08:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Can you get it to do TN3270?
Those IRMA boards implement a 3270 hardware interface...nothing to do with
IP. TN3270 (as you know) is effectively 3270-over-IP.
Ah, right.
> Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
The 3270 hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors.
Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment
controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either
a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or
direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe
controller interface), or some other method.
Interesting architecture!
That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
18 Apr
18 Apr
7:46 a.m.
That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
8:36 a.m.
We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA 3270. I can test the
3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are LONG
ISA boards.
Cindy Croxton
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:46 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
Cory, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3270_emulator
Here's another link you might find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC
The 5160 I got MAY have had the special video and interface boards in it,
but I can't recall at the moment.
g.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13
That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or
whatever it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
10:39 a.m.
New subject: 3270
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 11:25 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
On 04/18/2013 11:36 AM, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA
3270. I can test the
3270 machine,
Do you mean a "3270 PC" (aka IBM model 5271), or something else?
-Dave
IBM 5271 is correct. It has a 5.25" floppy and a hard drive.
Cindy
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13
11:04 a.m.
On 18/04/2013 16:36, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus wrote:
We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the IRMA
3270. I can test the
3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are LONG
ISA boards.
Cindy Croxton
I have a feeling they came with a replacement IBM Diagnostics disk which
had an extra test on for the card. I can't really see many folks wanting
one as the real fun is in using a real 3270. If you just want to connect
a PC to a mainframe then TN3270 works just fine and is virtually
indistinguishable from the use experience side of things.
M
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 9:46 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
Cory, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3270_emulator
Here's another link you might find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC
The 5160 I got MAY have had the special video and interface boards in it,
but I can't recall at the moment.
g.
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3272 / Virus Database: 3162/6251 - Release Date: 04/17/13
That
interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or
whatever it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know
more about these boards now, did software come with them?
2:30 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
On 18/04/2013 16:36, Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus
wrote:
The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on the
IBM mainframe to begin with.
I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or was in
the process of) hacking to work on a PC.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the
IRMA 3270. I can test the
3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are LONG
ISA boards.
Cindy Croxton
I have a feeling they came with a replacement IBM Diagnostics disk which had
an extra test on for the card. I can't really see many folks wanting one as
the real fun is in using a real 3270. If you just want to connect a PC to a
mainframe then TN3270 works just fine and is virtually indistinguishable from
the use experience side of things.
19 Apr
19 Apr
12:53 a.m.
On 18/04/2013 22:30, geneb wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap.
Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to
Hercules.
On 18/04/2013 16:36, Cindy Croxton Electronics
Plus wrote:
The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on
the IBM mainframe to begin with. We have an IBM 3270, as well as several of the
IRMA 3270. I can
test the
3270 machine, but I don't know how to test the 3270 cards. They are
LONG
ISA boards.
Cindy Croxton
I have a feeling they came with a replacement IBM Diagnostics disk
which had an extra test on for the card. I can't really see many
folks wanting one as the real fun is in using a real 3270. If you
just want to connect a PC to a mainframe then TN3270 works just fine
and is virtually indistinguishable from the use experience side of
things.
I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or
was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC.
I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a PC.
Like the one at the bottom of here:-
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm
g.
7:16 a.m.
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM hardware is
problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running on the 4331-K2
circa 1986?
Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked!
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
The hard part
(at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on the
IBM mainframe to begin with.
MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap. Finding
an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to Hercules.
> I recently saw
pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or was in
the process of) hacking to work on a PC.
I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a PC. Like
the one at the bottom of here:-
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm
12:53 p.m.
On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote:
Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked!
It really is.....
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM hardware
is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running on the
4331-K2 circa 1986?
Hercules has NO OS's, its sipped as a bare metal emulator.
The hard
part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on
the IBM mainframe to begin with.
MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap.
Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to
Hercules.
> I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard
a guy had (or
was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC.
I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a
PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:-
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm g.
1:38 p.m.
On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote:
Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked!
g.
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
Yeah. I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM hardware
is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running on the
4331-K2 circa 1986?
That box could just about run all the IBM 370 operating systems that
were current at that time. I would have thought around 1986 it would
most likely be running DOS/VSE as for example as per:-
http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/ShowDoc.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_ca/1/89…
The 4331 was aimed at smaller sites most of who ran DOS. It could also
have been running VM/SP R4 or possibly MVS/SP. MVS/SP is unlikely as
its really overkill for the 4331 and it requires CKD DASD which can be
formatted with a range of sector sizes. The 4331 was usually ordered
with FBA DASD such as these :-
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3310.html
and MVS won't run on these DASD. I think the only freely available OS
that runs on FBA DASD will be from the DOS family. VM/370 and MVS 3.8J
both require CKD disks.
The hard
part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands on
the IBM mainframe to begin with.
MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap.
Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270 to
Hercules.
> I
recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or
was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC.
I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a
PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:-
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm 
3:30 p.m.
On 4/19/2013 1:38 PM, Dave wrote:
I don't know why the 4331 was picked, but
made me think. The system
that was probably better was the 4361 if one could lay hands on one. It
had a storage director built in, and could run 3370's. If one had a
3420 + 2 or 3 3370's and the 4361, it was all about the same height and
form factor and made for a deep freeze and a half to run a very nice VM
system on. VM SP5 ran fine on that system.
It also had 4 3270 builtin ports (or 6, don't recall) plus a port that
had the console crap on the bottom of the screen. The top was a 3215
(maybe??) which had 20 lines rather than 24. You had a special keyboard
with the buttons on one side to bring the power up, and IPL.
Also the 3420 tape drive had the controller built in, so you didn't need
a 3803 type box to run the drive. Basically a reel to reel with the
reels horizontal. The one we had did 6250 as well, so two tapes would
back up the system pretty much.
On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
>
>>> The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands
>>> on the IBM mainframe to begin with.
>>
>> MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap.
>> Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270
>> to Hercules.
>>>
Probably Linux is all one can run unless you have a lot of money to run
Zos. I don't know how long you could legally run the demo Zvm download
or if it runs on the MP3000, I'm guessing the chances are high not.
Yeah. I'm
discovering that finding operating systems for IBM
hardware is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running
on the 4331-K2 circa 1986?
That box could just about run all the IBM 370
operating systems that
were current at that time. I would have thought around 1986 it would
most likely be running DOS/VSE as for example as per:-
http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/ShowDoc.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_ca/1/89…
The 4331 was aimed at smaller sites most of who ran DOS. It could also
have been running VM/SP R4 or possibly MVS/SP. MVS/SP is unlikely as
its really overkill for the 4331 and it requires CKD DASD which can be
formatted with a range of sector sizes. The 4331 was usually ordered
with FBA DASD such as these :-
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3310.html
and MVS won't run on these DASD. I think the only freely available OS
that runs on FBA DASD will be from the DOS family. VM/370 and MVS 3.8J
both require CKD disks.
Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked!
g.
That keyboard site is very handy, thanks to the author.
Jim
I
recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270 keyboard a guy had (or
was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC.
I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into a
PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:-
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm
11:55 p.m.
On 19/04/2013 23:30, Jim Stephens wrote:
On 4/19/2013 1:38 PM, Dave wrote:
I don't know why the 4331 was picked, but
made me think. The system
that was probably better was the 4361 if one could lay hands on one.
It had a storage director built in, and could run 3370's. If one had
a 3420 + 2 or 3 3370's and the 4361, it was all about the same height
and form factor and made for a deep freeze and a half to run a very
nice VM system on. VM SP5 ran fine on that system.
The issue with the direct attach drives is that they are all "fixed
block arcitecture" (FBA) drives so won't run the freely available (pre
VM/SP) VM/370 as that didn't support FBA disks. So almost all the low
end boxes that is 4331, 4361 and 9370 generally came with FBA disks as
these didn't need an expensive controller. You can use the more
expensive CKD drives but they were very expensive.
On 19/04/2013 15:16, geneb wrote:
> On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Dave wrote:
>
>>> The hard part (at least from my standpoint) is getting your hands
>>> on the IBM mainframe to begin with.
>>
>> MP3000 come up from time to time on E-Bay and are reasonably cheap.
>> Finding an OS to run on one is harder. You can connect a real 3270
>> to Hercules.
>>>
Probably Linux is all one can run unless you have a lot of money to
run Zos. I don't know how long you could legally run the demo Zvm
download or if it runs on the MP3000, I'm guessing the chances are
high not.
Yeah.
I'm discovering that finding operating systems for IBM
hardware is problematic. Does Hercules have the OS that was running
on the 4331-K2 circa 1986?
It also had 4 3270 builtin ports (or 6, don't
recall) plus a port that
had the console crap on the bottom of the screen. The top was a 3215
(maybe??) which had 20 lines rather than 24. You had a special
keyboard with the buttons on one side to bring the power up, and IPL.
Well thats an interesting point. It was generated to VM as a 3270 model
2A but all VM consoles look like 3215's to the application programs.
They use a special instruction DIAG58 to send full screen data to the
screen. Most apps will work in full screen mode on a 2A.
Also the 3420 tape drive had the controller built in,
so you didn't
need a 3803 type box to run the drive. Basically a reel to reel with
the reels horizontal. The one we had did 6250 as well, so two tapes
would back up the system pretty much.
Dave
That box could just about run all the IBM 370
operating systems that
were current at that time. I would have thought around 1986 it would
most likely be running DOS/VSE as for example as per:-
http://www-01.ibm.com/common/ssi/ShowDoc.wss?docURL=/common/ssi/rep_ca/1/89…
The 4331 was aimed at smaller sites most of who ran DOS. It could
also have been running VM/SP R4 or possibly MVS/SP. MVS/SP is
unlikely as its really overkill for the 4331 and it requires CKD DASD
which can be formatted with a range of sector sizes. The 4331 was
usually ordered with FBA DASD such as these :-
http://www-03.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_3310.html
and MVS won't run on these DASD. I think the only freely available OS
that runs on FBA DASD will be from the DOS family. VM/370 and MVS
3.8J both require CKD disks.
That keyboard site is very handy, thanks to the author.
Jim
> I recently saw pictures on the VCF of a 3270
keyboard a guy had
> (or was in the process of) hacking to work on a PC.
I have a couple of Nokia 122 key keyboards that plug straight into
a PC. Like the one at the bottom of here:-
http://www.quadibloc.com/comp/scan.htm
Now THAT is a labor of love. Awesome site. Bookmarked!
g.
3:56 a.m.
Oddly obvious.....
http://www.vm.ibm.com/eval
On Apr 20, 2013 11:22 AM, "MG" <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 20-apr-2013 0:30, Jim Stephens wrote:
I don't know how long you could legally run
the demo Zvm download
Out of curiosity, where can one obtain that?
- MG
18 Apr
18 Apr
10:46 a.m.
On 18/04/2013 15:46, geneb wrote:
>>
>> That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or
>> whatever
>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
>
> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
>
I don't know about IRMA boards but I seem to remember the hardware and
software were separate. OS/2 EE did I think come with a 3270 card.
For the PC several folks produced software that worked with the cards
including IBM, Irma, Attachmate etc.
Cory, see here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3270_emulator
Here's another link you might find interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_3270_PC
The 5160 I got MAY have had the special video and interface boards in
it, but I can't recall at the moment.
g.
9:26 a.m.
On 04/18/2013 02:42 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Yes. Very scalable, and very flexible.
Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver
disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
The 3270
hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors.
Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment
controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either
a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or
direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe
controller interface), or some other method.
Interesting architecture! That
interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
10:14 a.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver
disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program.
I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include
a keyboard? ;)
On 04/18/2013 02:42 AM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Yes. Very scalable, and very flexible.
Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but
wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
The 3270
hardware protocol uses coaxial cables and BNC connectors.
Upstream from terminals and printers are usually found "establishment
controllers", like 3174s, etc. They connect to a host (mainframe) via either
a LAN connection (Ethernet or token ring), serial bisync over a modem or
direct connection, parallel channel (an older high-speed IBM mainframe
controller interface), or some other method.
Interesting architecture! That interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee
(or a Mac, or whatever
it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
10:17 a.m.
On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver
disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program.
I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a
keyboard? ;)
Yes, there was a special keyboard.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I
can't help but wonder
why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular
for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the
RS/6000 world.
However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the
"baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use
MCA...there's an
MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI)
MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus.
That
interface board allows one to connect a PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
1:28 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Unicomp still makes a version of them too:
http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/PC122
I love the black design. I must now manufacture an excuse to buy one...
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
I wonder how
they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a
keyboard? ;)
Yes, there was a special keyboard.
4:12 p.m.
On 18 Apr 2013, at 16:28, "geneb" <geneb at deltasoft.com> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
Unicomp still makes a version of them too:
http://pckeyboard.com/page/category/PC122
I love the black design. I must now manufacture an excuse to buy one?
Paperweight should suffice as an excuse.
I wonder
how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a
keyboard? ;)
Yes, there was a special keyboard.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
1:28 p.m.
On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
wrote:
I wonder how they handled the extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a
keyboard? ;)
Yes, there was a special keyboard.
I figured there would have been.
Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the ones you gave me has failed! Seems to be
an issue with its little electronics.
On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely didn't survive as long
as PCI.
Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe
designs...I can't help but wonder
why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular
for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the
RS/6000 world.
However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the
"baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use
MCA...there's an
MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI)
I thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM implemented for the
busses in their mainframes?
MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus.
True.
> That interface board allows one to connect a
PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver
disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
4:46 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave McGuire"
<mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Cloned or made boards for it? There were a few 3rd party motherboard
manufacturers that licensed MCA, but I don't remember their names offhand.
As far as board manufacturers go (some licensed, some not), that I know of
included 3Com, Western Digital, SMC, Adaptec, Corel (SCSI boards, I still
have one), BusTek/BusLogic(Mylex), DPT, Kingston Technology...
FWIW, both PCI and ISA are /still/ very popular for industrial / single
board (backplane) computers that are often used in mission critical
applications. I can't say I've seen either MCA or EISA used in anything
lately though.
On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely didn't
survive as long as PCI. Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe
designs...I can't help but
wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very
popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was
also big in the RS/6000 world.
8:53 p.m.
On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:46, "Tothwolf" <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote:
The embedded market is a completely different game. ;)
On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave
McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
Cloned or made boards for it? There were a few 3rd party motherboard manufacturers that
licensed MCA, but I don't remember their names offhand. As far as board manufacturers
go (some licensed, some not), that I know of included 3Com, Western Digital, SMC, Adaptec,
Corel (SCSI boards, I still have one), BusTek/BusLogic(Mylex), DPT, Kingston
Technology...
FWIW, both PCI and ISA are /still/ very popular for industrial / single board (backplane)
computers that are often used in mission critical applications. I can't say I've
seen either MCA or EISA used in anything lately though. On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely didn't survive as
long as PCI. Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe
designs...I can't help but wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never
took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for a
long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the RS/6000 world.
4:53 p.m.
On 04/18/2013 04:28 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely
didn't survive as long as PCI.
"Cloned" it? Almost noone, as IBM aggressively pursued those who did.
Lots of companies *licensed* it legitimately and made boards. No, it
was nowhere near as popular as PCI in absolute terms, but adjusted for
the number of companies making "boards for desktop computers", as well
as the number of small computers produced increasing over time, it was
by no means a commercial failure...not by any stretch.
Not really, no. Most mainframes didn't have a bus per se, until
comparatively recently.
Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I
can't
help but wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market
never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very
popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It
was also big in the RS/6000 world. However...that
has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of
the "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use
MCA...there's an MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the
first one, the next two were PCI)
I thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM
implemented for the busses in their mainframes? Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the ones
you gave me has
failed! Seems to be an issue with its little electronics.
That figures. I have more; I'll put some in your pile.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
9 p.m.
On 18 Apr 2013, at 19:53, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
wrote:
Not really, no. Most mainframes didn't have a bus per se, until
comparatively recently.
Ah. I guess I need to go research the hardware of older big iron then.
Thanks!
On 04/18/2013 04:28 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely
didn't survive as long as PCI.
"Cloned" it? Almost noone, as IBM aggressively pursued those who did.
Lots of companies *licensed* it legitimately and made boards. No, it
was nowhere near as popular as PCI in absolute terms, but adjusted for the number of
companies making "boards for desktop computers", as well as the number of small
computers produced increasing over time, it was by no means a commercial failure...not by
any stretch.
Ah. That would explain why so few "cloned" it then. ;)
Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I
can't
help but wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market
never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very
popular for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It
was also big in the RS/6000 world.
However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of
the "baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use
MCA...there's an MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the
first one, the next two were PCI)
I thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM
implemented for the busses in their mainframes? Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the
ones you gave me has
failed! Seems to be an issue with its little electronics.
That figures. I have more; I'll put some in your pile.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
19 Apr
19 Apr
12:42 a.m.
On 18/04/2013 21:28, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Yes, there was a special keyboard. I figured there would have
been.
Speaking of keyboards?it seems like one of the ones you gave me has failed! Seems to be
an issue with its little electronics.
On 18 Apr 2013, at 13:17, "Dave McGuire" <mcguire at neurotica.com>
wrote:
I think that was more "Marketing" than anything real. All S/360 i/o is
via what is called a "Channel" which is physically implemented as a BUS.
However its not directly connected to memory like an ISA or MCA card.
Instead the channel has a dedicated programmable interface usually just
refered to as a "Channel" but its a really an intelligent
controller/cpu which runs something called "channel programs". Its a
fairly simple program but it will do scatter/gather i/o, loop, test
device status etc. so offloading much of the work in doing i/o away from
the main CPU. All a program had to do to perform i/o was construct a
channel program that defined what i/o it wanted doing and issue a Sart
IO (SIO) command and the channel program does the rest. So for a
communications line you can leave a channel program running in an
endless loop and it will only interupt when a byte arrives...
So whilst MCA had DMA it only had one DMA path to memory and there was
no equivalent of a "Channel Program" even though it was called "Micro
Channel Architecure"....
If I remember properly he S/360 architecture allowed for 8 channels
running at 1.5 MBytes/Sec (so 12Mbits), S/370 upped this to 4Mbytes/sec
or 32Mbits/sec and allowed more channels. In XA there can be 256
channels... but they are no longer real channels...
Each channel has 256 addresses, 00 thru FF. Typically we add the channel
number to the start so a S/360 could address up to 2048 (8x256) 000 thru
7FF devices. As logic was expensive typically devices were connected by
a controller. Only the controller actually connects directly to the
channel via a standard interface called Bus+Tag. The devices connect to
the controller, but via some interconnect appropriate to the device. So
Tapes and Disks had similar cables to the Bus+Tag, but screens connected
via the 93ohm co-ax which is where we started.
The original plan was that these were set up as 16 controllers each with
up to 16 devices but later on devices such as printers appeared with
built controllers and controllers that could support more than 16
devices became common so tweaks were made.
There are pictures of the Bus+Tag connectors that connected the cables
used to connect a channels controllers here:-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IBM_System/360
On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
How many people outside of IBM cloned it though? It definitely
didn't survive as long as PCI.
Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe
designs...I can't help but wonder
why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I'm not sure
it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular
for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the
RS/6000 world. However...that has nothing at all to do with
mainframes. Some of the
"baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use
MCA...there's an
MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI)
I
thought the architecture was derived from some of the designs IBM implemented for the
busses in their mainframes? MCA was
really a microcomputers-only bus.
True.
>> That interface board allows one to connect a
PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
>> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
> I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
Like other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver
disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program.
I wonder how they handled the
extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a
keyboard? ;) -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
18 Apr
18 Apr
2:13 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave McGuire
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 10:17 AM
To: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they reserved no
licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding huge fees to license MCA. Third
parties said, no thanks.... -- Ian
Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe
designs...I can't help but
wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for
a
long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the
RS/6000 world.
However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the
"baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use
MCA...there's an MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the
next two were PCI)
MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus.
4:55 p.m.
On Apr 18, 2013, at 5:13 PM, Ian King wrote:
ISTR DEC did the same dumb thing with VAXBI. Possibly XMI as well?
- Dave
On 04/18/2013
01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they reserved no
licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding huge fees to license MCA. Third
parties said, no thanks.... -- Ian Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe
designs...I can't help but
wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for
a
long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the
RS/6000 world.
9:12 p.m.
On 04/18/2013 07:55 PM, David Riley wrote:
ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on the ISA bus (they reserved no
licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding huge fees to license MCA. Third
parties said, no thanks.... -- Ian
ISTR DEC did the same dumb thing with VAXBI. Possibly XMI as well?
Yup, exactly. :-( Suits.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Yeah. Every
time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but
wonder why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never took off. It was very popular for
a
long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the
RS/6000 world.
19 Apr
19 Apr
10:33 a.m.
New subject: MCA licensing (was: Public mainframe system)
Ian King, among others, mentioned:
ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder on
the ISA bus (they
reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding
huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks....
This was just the first battle of the war. Though IBM had no patents
associated with the PC or XT, they did have some (seven in Brazil, for
example) for the AT. They spent the first half of the 1990s going after
chipset makers (practically all in Japan at that time) to get royalties
on those and, more importantly, get them to license other patents
(whether relevant or not) that weren't going to expire in 2000 and 2001.
Having achieved that goal, they spent the second half of the 1990s going
after the PC makers themselves.
This was a long time ago, so I don't remember all the details. Most of
the patents were just silly in that they described stuff that the Apple
II already did, like splitting a screen into a graphics part and a text
part. Others were trivial to eliminate, like the algorithm to detect 40
vs 80 track floppies by moving to track 60, going back 59 tracks and
checking to see if we got to track 0 or not. Most BIOSes just ask the
user instead.
The ISA related patents are the ones I remember the least. I think there
was one related to having both latched and unlatched versions of some
address bits. And the other was about the MASTER signal, which not only
didn't really work but was shamelessly copied from an Intel application
note for the Multibus.
Anyway, as far as I know IBM has made as much money from PC patents as
it would have if its MCA strategy had been totally successful. And
though the original patents have now all expired, I wouldn't be at all
surprised if the money is still coming in.
-- Jecel
12:55 p.m.
New subject: MCA licensing (was: Public mainframe system)
> ISTR that they also overreacted to their blunder
on the ISA bus (they
> reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding
> huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks....
On Fri, 19 Apr
2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
This was just the first battle of the war. Though IBM
had no patents
associated with the PC or XT,
??
I remember Lee Felsenstein searching for "prior art" to overturn some.
Such as using 2 16bit/pair-of-8bit registers to hold the coordinates of
upper left and lower right of box/area of screen.
Having achieved that goal, they spent the second half
of the 1990s going
after the PC makers themselves.
In the 1980s, they went after copyright infringement for BIOS.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
2:47 p.m.
New subject: MCA licensing
On 04/19/2013 12:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>> ISTR that they also overreacted to their
blunder on the ISA bus (they
>> reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding
>> huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks....
A couple said "we'll try it". I think the Tandy 5000 was one such
machine, but I believe MCA was only an option. One other maker tried
it; was it AST?
Neither system sold well.
--Chuck
5:01 p.m.
New subject: MCA licensing
On 04/19/2013 05:47 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 04/19/2013 12:55 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Quite a few more than two made (licensed) boards, though.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
>> ISTR that they also overreacted to their
blunder on the ISA bus (they
>> reserved no licensing rights) and overcompensated by demanding
>> huge fees to license MCA. Third parties said, no thanks....
A couple said "we'll try it". I think the Tandy 5000 was one such
machine,
but I believe MCA was only an option. One other maker tried it; was it AST?
Neither system sold well.
6:44 p.m.
New subject: MCA licensing (was: Public mainframe system)
Fred Cisin wrote:
The sued the three PC makers in Brazil in early 1984 (Softec, Scopus and
Microtec). They dropped their suit after all three made rather trivial
modifications to their BIOSes, however. Just switching around some
pieces of code while keeping key entry points intact was enough to make
them happy. None of that "clean room" stuff was needed.
Interestingly enough, Scopus and Microtec were really afraid of
Microsoft. So they didn't include the Basic ROMs, which some software
needed in order to run. Instead, they would unofficially tell their
clients to find a friend with a Softec machine and run this little
program to dump the ROMs to floppy and then find another friend with an
EPROM burner. They were pretty shocked when it was IBM that went after
them instead. They had assumed that since IBM had published the
commented source for the BIOS in their technical manual they weren't
interested in protecting it. And note that software only became
protected by copyright in Brazil in October of 1987, so IBM's threat was
a pretty empty one.
-- Jecel
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote:
Thanks for the information. I would imagine that there were variations
on what patents they obtained for different countries. The computer
companies who asked me for a technical review were from Brazil. If you
think reading patents in English is a pain, you can't imagine the horror
that a translation to Portuguese by non technical people can be. They
didn't use a single computer industry term in the whole text but made up
their own vocabulary out of thin air.
If the PC patents were anything like the seven I saw, finding prior art
must have been trivial (though fruitless, in the case of my clients),
since winning against IBM would have been more costly than caving in).
This was just the first battle of the war. Though
IBM had no patents
associated with the PC or XT,
??
I remember Lee Felsenstein searching for "prior art" to overturn some.
Such as using 2 16bit/pair-of-8bit registers to hold the coordinates of
upper left and lower right of box/area of screen. Having
achieved that goal, they spent the second half of the 1990s going
after the PC makers themselves.
In the 1980s, they went after copyright infringement for BIOS.
18 Apr
18 Apr
2:49 p.m.
On 18/04/2013 18:17, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/18/2013 01:14 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
> Yeah. Every time I think of IBM mainframe designs...I can't help but wonder
> why microchannel for the microcomputer market never took off.
I think it hast
at least something to do with the fact whilst the XT and
AT buses were licence free, IBM wanted to retain control of MCA and so
charged a license fee.
So for workstations there was still AT/ISA bus which was free, and for
most things you didn't need the speed of MCA.
Servers was a different ball games, but most of the other server makers
apart from NCR went with EISA to avoid IBMs control.
Then there was the cludge that was VESA for workstations that needed
more speed....
Lastly PCI in its various variants....
I'm not sure it's fair to say that it never
took off. It was very popular
for a long time. Many manufacturers made MCA cards. It was also big in the
RS/6000 world.
However...that has nothing at all to do with mainframes. Some of the
"baby" development system "mainframes" like the P/390 do use
MCA...there's an
MCA version of the P/390 card. (that was the first one, the next two were PCI)
MCA was really a microcomputers-only bus.
I wonder how they handled the
extended keyboard buttons. Did they include a
keyboard? ;)e Yes, there was a special keyboard.
-Dave
> That interface board allows one to connect a
PeeCee (or a Mac, or whatever
> it's for) to one of those establishment controllers.
I want to know more about these boards now, did software come with them?
Like
other application-specific boards, they usually came with a driver
disk and likely a 3270-ish terminal program.
17 Apr
17 Apr
7:53 p.m.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
No, that's a REAL 3270 card for hooking up over coax (what was it,
SDLC? Something in the SNA family). Later ones had twisted pair
as well, but I don't know driving what.
They made NuBus and Mac SE card versions as well, probably quite a
few other types.
I guess you COULD get it to do tn3270, given an appropriate proxy,
but that seems to me like hooking a VT100 to a machine to bridge
to IP to connect to another machine running ser2net. You could do
it, it might be kind of cool, but you could remove the middleman.
- Dave
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Can you get it to do TN3270? On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
18 Apr
18 Apr
12:49 a.m.
On 18/04/2013 03:53, David Riley wrote:
On Apr 17, 2013, at 8:45 PM, Cory Smelosky wrote:
Oddly 3270's can be SNA or non-SNA, its the controller configuration
that decides, but I guess what runs over the CO-AX isn't really SNA.
VM/370 has never really had SNA support but will support many 3270
terminals. Yes IBM did add SNA support in VM/SP5 but only via
cludginging of yet another clone of MVS (in the guise of GCS) into VM.
The later 3174 controller also act as Telnet terminal servers so you can
use a 3170 connection as an ANSI terminal onto a DEC host...
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
No, that's a REAL 3270 card for hooking up
over coax (what was it,
SDLC? Something in the SNA family). Later ones had twisted pair
as well, but I don't know driving what. On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Can you get it to do TN3270? On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
> Those are for lack of a better term for them, terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
They made NuBus and Mac SE card versions as well,
probably quite a
few other types.
I guess you COULD get it to do tn3270, given an appropriate proxy,
Just plug it
into a 3174 with the appropriate firmware. It will do
normal TELNET as well...
but that seems to me like hooking a VT100 to a machine
to bridge
to IP to connect to another machine running ser2net. You could do
it, it might be kind of cool, but you could remove the middleman.
If you had a real Mainframe with a local 3174 that was the sort of thing
folks did all the time.
- Dave
Dave
17 Apr
17 Apr
5:48 p.m.
New subject: Public mainframe system (Irma & and other 3270 cards)
On 4/17/2013 2:19 PM, geneb wrote:
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
A 3174 63R doesn't cost much. More importantly do you have the software
for the IRMA card?
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect it to.
g.
Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
18 Apr
18 Apr
7:18 a.m.
New subject: Public mainframe system (Irma & and other 3270 cards)
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Jim Stephens wrote:
On 4/17/2013 2:19 PM, geneb wrote:
I have no clue what that is. :)
I made careful backups of the software that was on the 10MB drive before I
wiped, SpinRite'd and put DOS 3.30 on it. (it had 2.0 on it when I got
it) If the software was there, I've got it.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
A 3174 63R doesn't cost much. More importantly do you have the software for
the IRMA card?
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Guy Sotomayor wrote:
I'm kinda bummed that I've got an IRMA 3270 card and nothing to to
connect
it to.
g.
Those are for lack of a better term for them,
terminals.
I still think that "TERMINAL" is a better name than "thin client"
17 Apr
17 Apr
12:47 p.m.
[...] who thinks Windows machines process financial
transactions. ;)
They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing
agents'
desktops. [...] No, that's not the backend, not the bulk
processor, [...] 
11:51 a.m.
At 12:28 PM 4/17/2013, Mouse wrote:
No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor,
but that Windows
machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some
senses.
In the same sense that in days of yore, the glass TTY "handles the
transactions"?
At a bank I'm familiar with, transactions are still batched and sent
off to some large probably IBM-based mainframe seventy miles away,
and some of the tellers were sad when 3270 mode went away within
the last year.
- John
12:59 p.m.
No, that's
not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows
machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least
some senses.
In the same sense that in days of yore, the glass TTY "handles
the
transactions"? At a bank I'm familiar with, transactions are
still batched and sent
off to some large probably IBM-based mainframe seventy miles away,
Oh, I daresay that happens too. But just because transactions get
processed in one way by machine A doesn't mean they don't also get
processed (possibly in a similar way, possibly different) by machine B.
At least not for the meanings of "process" I'm familiar with.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
6:06 p.m.
At 02:59 PM 4/17/2013, Mouse wrote:
Or at least that's my guess. I haven't seen
the code, but it looks to
me as though the end-agent desktop is probably doing format conversion
(eg, digit strings to binary numbers) at the very least, quite possibly
some verification and backend selection, possibly even more..
I think they're running code loaded from a local server that does
nothing more than logic-and-verify, and all the results and transaction
requests are queued into a database that's fed daily to the big machines.
There are an assortment of line-of-business apps at any bank, of course,
and they vary. Loan processing software, for example, helps them
with compliance and filling out forms, but doesn't really "process".
- John
18 Apr
18 Apr
9:33 a.m.
Loan processing software [...] doesn't really
"process".
Okay, this is clearly being used as a technical term with relatively
restricted meaning (I can't see how processing software could be said
to not process otherwise, unless perhaps it were Just Plain Broken), so
most of what I said on the subject does not actually apply.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
17 Apr
17 Apr
12:03 p.m.
I got one account yesterday. Must read the system policies. I'll do a try
with REXX, ISPF, COBOL and DB2 when have a moment.
SPc.
2013/4/17 Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org>
[...] who
thinks Windows machines process financial transactions. ;)
They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing agents'
desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find
anyone saner in that respect.)
No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows
machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some
senses.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
12:17 p.m.
New subject: Using PCs instead of mainframes (Was: Public mainframe system
> [...] who thinks Windows machines process
financial transactions. ;)
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Mouse wrote:
They do. My bank uses Windows for its customer-facing
agents'
desktops. (It'd be a reason to switch, except I don't expect to find
anyone saner in that respect.)
No, that's not the backend, not the bulk processor, but that Windows
machine is indeed handling that agent's transactions in at least some
senses.
Kaiser uses PCs in every exam room (either Dell or HP), running Windoze.
But, one of the main windows that is open is a CICS session!
Unfortunately their systems staff has little enough medical knowledge
that their Undesirable Medication Side Effects report is MISlabelled
"ALLERGIES"!
If you think that that is unimportant, it meant that their ER staff,
in an emergency, were scared to administer an appropriate med because
I once discontinued taking it because it made me drowsy.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
3:14 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 03:49 PM, MG wrote:
Yes! I'm going to fly over there JUST to kick your prepubescent ass,
because I have nothing better to do. Better call Interpol!
Moron.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
It's
awfully safe over there across the pond, isn't it?
Is this supposed to be yet another threat?
3:09 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com>wrote:
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid
who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;)
Not quite sure what you meant but a lot of ATMs went to WindowsCE or
variants after OS/2 support was dropped by IBM. Yes eComStation tried and
probably has some market share but still, surprising to many I'd consider
that to be banking via a Windows machine for argument sake.
6:01 p.m.
On Apr 17, 2013, at 6:09 PM, "Sam O'nella" <barythrin at gmail.com>
wrote:
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 11:35 AM, Dave McGuire
<mcguire at neurotica.com>wrote:
Yes, we all know that. The ATMs, however, don't process account debits and
credits.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I won't even dignify this...especially to the
kid who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;)
Not quite sure what you meant but a lot of ATMs went to WindowsCE or
variants after OS/2 support was dropped by IBM. Yes eComStation tried and
probably has some market share but still, surprising to many I'd consider
that to be banking via a Windows machine for argument sake.
18 Apr
18 Apr
10:36 a.m.
[...]. The ATMs, however, don't process account
debits and credits.
Okay, now I just gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"?
Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
1:55 p.m.
On Apr 18, 2013, at 1:36 PM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
It depends on the meaning of "process". The ATM does the
front-end job of shoehorning all the data required for the
transaction into a transaction request. Then it schleps it
to the mainframe, which does what is typically considered
the "processing". The ATM then unpacks the response and
displays a human-readable result.
There are two levels of processing here. The ATM is
obviously doing some sort of processing for the front-end
work to make it compatible with humans. But it's not doing
anything that involves the bank's customer database; that's
the job of the mainframe.
It's analogous to a web browser in a lot of ways. More so
if you consider only non-Javascript stuff, though ATMs
these days certainly have a lot more going on on the front
end (like check scanning) than they used to. In any case,
while you could consider what a simple web browser does to
be "processing", in that model the server does most of the
heavy lifting, especially when you're talking about CGI
type applications.
I suppose it comes down to colloquialisms.
- Dave
[...]. The
ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits.
Okay, now I just gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"?
Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else.
2:23 p.m.
On 04/18/2013 01:36 PM, Mouse wrote:
Good heavens.
PROCESS THE TRANSACTIONS. Debit this account, credit that account,
calculate the balance, subtract the fees, calculate the interest, etc etc
etc. [boggle]
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
[...]. The
ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits.
Okay, now I just gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"?
Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else.
5:47 p.m.
On 4/18/2013 2:23 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/18/2013 01:36 PM, Mouse wrote:
Good heavens.
PROCESS THE TRANSACTIONS. Debit this account, credit that account,
calculate the balance, subtract the fees, calculate the interest, etc etc
etc. [boggle]
-Dave
If you make the example being at one bank, and having no security, or
other safeguards. There are steps to verify remote balances, security
in all the data exchanges, pin verification, just to name a few things
that go beyond the basic list of actions here.
There is usually a posting against the account for debit / withdrawals
depending on the nature of the transaction as well, if you go outsides
the bounds of ATM operations. Then it gets all hinked up into the
Verifone pad and all that crap, doing a verification or hold on the
account, then posting a results.
Lots of transactions and in the case of just a withdrawal from a non
accountholding bank you have to also do it quickly for an ATM, as the
human can't be bothered to hang around a long time.
the debit card transactions are done by distributed processing and it
has been recently demonstrated that the distribution introduces about a
10 minute latency in syncing data, so the transactions are no longer
atomic, but can be scammed to produce fraud with swiped cards.
and on and on. Late in the day, just had to make this thread one or two
longer.
[...].
The ATMs, however, don't process account debits and credits.
Okay, now I just
gotta ask: what is this meaning of "process"?
Because, as I understand the word, ATMs do almost nothing else. 
17 Apr
17 Apr
8:38 p.m.
On Wednesday, April 17, 2013 12:35:55 PM Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 10:14 AM, MG wrote:
The Bank I used to work for wanted to replace their IBM mainframe running CA-
Datacom/Ideal. After a lengthy process they selected a system that would run
on the HP 3000. Following the presentation announcing this bold move forward
I pointed out to the committee chair that HP had just announced that they were
retiring the 3000. They decided to stick with the Software and run it on a
HP/us platform. When all the boxes arrived there was one small box from HP
and a dozen from Dell. The database would run on an HP and the rest of the
system on a dozen Windows server machines. The Security officer who had
approved the migration was not ammused with the changes.
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
I won't even dignify this...especially to the kid who thinks Windows
machines process financial transactions. ;) *grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
4:52 p.m.
On 4/17/13 7:14 AM, "MG" <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 17-apr-2013 15:37, geneb wrote:
What fun is that? Totalitarian approaches to repress creativity, I say.
ITS, anyone? -- Ian
*grabs popcorn bowl*
Most 21st century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
18 Apr
18 Apr
1:34 a.m.
On 18-apr-2013 1:52, Ian King wrote:
What is fun about getting a false sense of freedom?
Also, "repress creativity"? At least in a totalitarian system, you
know what you can and can't do. So, you can actually do something
and be truly creative, albeit within the bounds of those limitations.
- MG
Most 21st
century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
What fun is that? Totalitarian approaches to repress creativity, I say.
ITS, anyone? -- Ian
9:14 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of MG
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 1:34 AM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
On 18-apr-2013 1:52, Ian King wrote:
What is fun about getting a false sense of freedom?
Also, "repress creativity"? At least in a totalitarian system, you know what
you can and can't do. So, you can actually do something and be truly
creative, albeit within the bounds of those limitations.
- MG
You really took my frivolous comment seriously? Whoa.
Most 21st
century (even many 20th century) operating systems have
things called user permissions, file system permissions, ACLs and
much more, to just mention a few.
What fun is that? Totalitarian approaches to repress creativity, I say.
ITS, anyone? -- Ian
17 Apr
17 Apr
9:34 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 09:33 AM, MG wrote:
Idiot Boy rides again! Back for more, I see! Some people just never
learn.
I'm sorry to disappoint all you fine gents who settled down with
popcorn and beer, but this kid isn't going to get my goat this time.
Maybe he'll get bored and go away.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Not to
reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
10 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 09:33 AM, MG wrote:
Idiot Boy rides again! Back for more, I see! Some people just never
learn.
I'm sorry to disappoint all you fine gents who settled down with
popcorn and beer, but this kid isn't going to get my goat this time.
Maybe he'll get bored and go away.
I got five bucks on the goat.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Not to
reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
3:34 p.m.
On 04/17/2013 03:53 PM, MG wrote:
Not a troll at all!
Hey, wait...Gene, is he threatening you? Holy crap, I'm callin'
Interpol!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
I got five
bucks on the goat.
Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around
in a cockpit at home?
6:57 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 03:53 PM, MG wrote:
Not a troll at all!
Hey, wait...Gene, is he threatening you? Holy crap, I'm callin'
Interpol!
Can't forget the CIA, too!
I got
five bucks on the goat.
Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around
in a cockpit at home? -Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
7:06 p.m.
Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead
of playing around
in a cockpit at home?
Because in the Air Force, you have to SHARE the planes,
computers, and other goodies with a whole bunch of other people!
Not everybody wants time-sharing.
And, in the Air Force, other people make the decisions about
who you should bomb and so forth.
Long, long ago, in the old country (don't know which country,
but it was old), my great, great, great, not so great, grandfather
had a gig polishing the cannon in front of the town hall. he would
get up before dawn, trudge up the hill in the snow (it was uphill
in both directions in those days) wipe down the dew, touch up any
new scratches, and polish it until it gleamed. Then he would trudge
back up the hill until the next day.
One day, he came to a realization; "This job is getting me nowhere!
I can't pick my own hours. There is no opportunity for advancement!
I'll be doing this until I die!"
so, . . .
He bought his own cannon and went into business for himself.
In 1979, I bought my own computer, and went into business for myself.
Gene has put together the cockpit.
It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
18 Apr
18 Apr
1:39 a.m.
On 18-apr-2013 4:06, Fred Cisin wrote:
Imagine that!
Why aren't
you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around
in a cockpit at home?
Because in the Air Force, you have to SHARE the planes,
computers, and other goodies with a whole bunch of other people! Not everybody wants time-sharing.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
It's hilarious that you should mention that in a thread about
IBM.
And, in the Air Force, other people make the decisions
about
who you should bomb and so forth.
So?
- MG
7:25 a.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
Gene has put together the cockpit.
It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough
at me as it is. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
9:10 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctalk-
bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of geneb
Sent: Thursday, April 18, 2013 7:25 AM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Public mainframe system
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really get unhappy. -- Ian
Gene has put together the cockpit.
It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough at
me as it is. :)
g.
9:51 a.m.
> > Gene has put together the cockpit.
> > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough at
> me as it is. :)
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote:
I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is
when they really
get unhappy. -- Ian
In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells
12:43 p.m.
On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Now that's just _mean_....
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
>> Gene
has put together the cockpit.
>> It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad enough at
> me as it is. :)
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote:
I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles
is when they really
get unhappy. -- Ian
In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells
3:47 p.m.
On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>> Gene has put together the cockpit.
>>>> It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
>>> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad
>>> enough at
>>> me as it is. :)
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote:
>> I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really
>> get unhappy. -- Ian
>
> In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells
Now that's just _mean_....
This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today.
:)
10:24 p.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, ben wrote:
On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
As opposed to flying toasters? >:)
On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today.
:) On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote:
Now that's just _mean_.... On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
>
> > Gene has put together the cockpit.
> > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
>
> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad
> enough at me as it is. :)
I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really
get unhappy. -- Ian
In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells
19 Apr
19 Apr
12:27 a.m.
On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:24, "Tothwolf" <tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, ben wrote:
The greatest screensaver of all time! ?other than 3-D Maze.
On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
As opposed to flying toasters? >:) On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote:
> > On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
> > > On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
> > >
> > > > Gene has put together the cockpit.
> > > > It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
> > >
> > > That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad >
> > > enough at me as it is. :)
> >
> > I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really > >
> get unhappy. -- Ian
> > > In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells
> Now that's just _mean_....
This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today.
:)
1:14 a.m.
On Fri, 19 Apr 2013, Cory Smelosky wrote:
On 19 Apr 2013, at 01:24, "Tothwolf"
<tothwolf at concentric.net> wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delrina#Berkeley_Systems_Inc._v._Delrina
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, ben wrote:
The greatest screensaver of all time! ?other than 3-D Maze. On 4/18/2013 1:43 PM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:
As opposed to flying toasters? >:) On 04/18/2013 12:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, Ian King wrote:
>> On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, geneb wrote:
>>> On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Fred Cisin wrote:
>>>
>>>> Gene has put together the cockpit.
>>>> It'll take a while to come up with the wings, engines, etc.
>>>
>>> That path leads to the bottom of a very deep hole. They're mad > >
> > enough at me as it is. :)
>>
>> I figure when you install the air-to-air missiles is when they really > >
> get unhappy. -- Ian
>>> In the meantime, just rig up a mechanism to drop Packard Bells
> Now that's just _mean_....
This is mean: Save Ducks, shoot a flying Bell today.
:)
17 Apr
17 Apr
7:29 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 03:53 PM, MG wrote:
Not a troll at all!
Hey, wait...Gene, is he threatening you? Holy crap, I'm callin' Interpol!
Nah. It must take a long time to hammer out hissy fits on a Fischer-Price
keyboard though. I'd be pretty cranky too. :D
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
I got
five bucks on the goat.
Why aren't you actually in the Air Force, instead of playing around
in a cockpit at home?
10:25 a.m.
On 04/17/2013 12:34 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 04/17/2013 09:33 AM, MG wrote:
Idiot Boy rides again! Back for more, I see! Some people just never
learn.
I'm sorry to disappoint all you fine gents who settled down with
popcorn and beer, but this kid isn't going to get my goat this time.
Maybe he'll get bored and go away.
Aww, bummer... But yeha, so far I've keep my mouth shut.
--
--- Dave Woyciesjes
--- ICQ# 905818
--- AIM - woyciesjes
--- CompTIA A+ Certified IT Tech - http://certification.comptia.org/
--- HDI Certified Support Center Analyst - http://www.ThinkHDI.com/
Registered Linux user number 464583
"Computers have lots of memory but no imagination."
"The problem with troubleshooting is that trouble shoots back."
- from some guy on the internet.
Not to
reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
3:18 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:33 AM, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote:
I think this was an honest question of yours not bait although I did find
the popcorn comments funny. I didn't see much explanation for you if you
were really seeking which would have been nice. I've only done minor
admin/system administration on a mainframe and I was using tools/commands
that were written by the other security admin and some minor commands in
"Top Secret" (tss) so my experience probably doesn't add up to much. But
yes, you can pretty much secure any user down to the command or subsystem
they're allowed to access. It's quite granular and well put together if
you understand the logic of the mainframe environment.
https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/CMS-Information-Te…
a guide but grab some Jolt or something before trying to sit down and
actually read through it. These guides are a discipline of their own to
sit through lol.
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have
no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
- MG
6:19 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Sam O'nella wrote:
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 8:33 AM, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
It's much easier to get through the MTS manuals...the commands for it
actually seem logical and like they weren't written using a spinning
dartboard and a random number generator. (I know I exaggerated, but MVS is
a bit strange, you gotta admit that)
The HELP system is useful, too! It's menu driven. It's far, far superior
to UNIX/Linux man pages.
Linux man pages are also inferior to BSD man pages...I like man pages on
all the drivers. ;)
--
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Projects
On 16-apr-2013 22:10, David Riley wrote:
I think this was an honest question of yours not bait although I did find
the popcorn comments funny. I didn't see much explanation for you if you
were really seeking which would have been nice. I've only done minor
admin/system administration on a mainframe and I was using tools/commands
that were written by the other security admin and some minor commands in
"Top Secret" (tss) so my experience probably doesn't add up to much. But
yes, you can pretty much secure any user down to the command or subsystem
they're allowed to access. It's quite granular and well put together if
you understand the logic of the mainframe environment.
https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/CMS-Information-Te…
a guide but grab some Jolt or something before trying to sit down and
actually read through it. These guides are a discipline of their own to
sit through lol.
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have
no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
Too bad that you can't do anything there. Also, why can't they
restrict things you can't (or aren't 'supposed' to) do? That
makes no sense, well, outside of that niche world anyway.
- MG
18 Apr
18 Apr
1:49 a.m.
On 18-apr-2013 3:19, Cory Smelosky wrote:
It's much easier to get through the MTS
manuals...the commands for it
actually seem logical and like they weren't written using a spinning
dartboard and a random number generator. (I know I exaggerated, but MVS
is a bit strange, you gotta admit that)
On FanDeZhi I tried MVS, or some variation of it and --- I don't know
if it's the usual incarnation --- but it struck me as being very much
like UNIX? (With a Bourne Shell, of some type, although missing many
things like Curses.)
The HELP system is useful, too! It's menu driven.
It's far, far
superior to UNIX/Linux man pages.
It's not bad, but, I personally like the VMS HELP system best of all.
UNIX "man" pages vary, especially between various 'vendors' and also
depending on how you'd like to process (e.g. pipe) them.
Linux man pages are also inferior to BSD man pages...I
like man pages on
all the drivers. ;)
Linux "man" pages also doesn't always seem to abide to common
formatting rules.
- MG
2:20 a.m.
On Thu, Apr 18, 2013 at 10:49 AM, MG <marcogb at xs4all.nl> wrote:
On FanDeZhi I tried MVS, or some variation of it and --- I don't know
if it's the usual incarnation --- but it struck me as being very much
like UNIX? (With a Bourne Shell, of some type, although missing many
things like Curses.)
Sounds like you entered the OMVS command, which gives you a shell
that's part of the UNIX system services (USS). USS began it's life as
an addition to MVS called MVS Open Edition, hence the OMVS command to
enter the shell from TSO.
Camiel.
9:36 a.m.
On Thu, 18 Apr 2013, MG wrote:
I'd agree with VMS' help system being best.
Exactly.
On 18-apr-2013 3:19, Cory Smelosky wrote:
There is a linux...compat layer there it seems. It might even be a UNIX
"vm".
It's much easier to get through the MTS
manuals...the commands for it
actually seem logical and like they weren't written using a spinning
dartboard and a random number generator. (I know I exaggerated, but MVS
is a bit strange, you gotta admit that)
On FanDeZhi I tried MVS, or some variation of it and --- I don't know
if it's the usual incarnation --- but it struck me as being very much
like UNIX? (With a Bourne Shell, of some type, although missing many
things like Curses.) The HELP system is useful, too! It's menu
driven. It's far, far
superior to UNIX/Linux man pages.
It's not bad, but, I personally like the VMS HELP system best of all.
UNIX "man" pages vary, especially between various 'vendors' and also
depending on how you'd like to process (e.g. pipe) them.
Linux man pages are also inferior to BSD man
pages...I like man pages on
all the drivers. ;)
Linux "man" pages also doesn't always seem to abide to common
formatting rules.
- MG
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
1:44 a.m.
On 18-apr-2013 0:18, Sam O'nella wrote:
I think this was an honest question of yours not bait
although I did find
the popcorn comments funny. I didn't see much explanation for you if you
were really seeking which would have been nice.
That would indeed have been nice.
I've only done minor admin/system administration
on a mainframe and I was
using tools/commands that were written by the other security admin and some
minor commands in "Top Secret" (tss) so my experience probably doesn't add
up to much. But yes, you can pretty much secure any user down to the command
or subsystem they're allowed to access. It's quite granular and well put
together if you understand the logic of the mainframe environment.
Well, I would've certainly expected that. I was mostly wondering why
they didn't implement such restrictions on that remote access system.
https://www.cms.gov/Research-Statistics-Data-and-Systems/CMS-Information-Te…
a guide but grab some Jolt or something before trying to sit down and
actually read through it. These guides are a discipline of their own to
sit through lol.
Thanks for linking me to that, that looks interesting.
- MG
17 Apr
17 Apr
1:26 p.m.
On 4/16/2013 1:10 PM, David Riley wrote:
Not to reignite a somewhat sensitive topic, but if
anyone was
interested (like I was) in a publicly-accessible modern(ish)
IBM mainframe system, the FanDeZhi system at zos.efglobe.com
seems to be back up. You can acquire a free account here:
http://zos.efglobe.com/cgi-bin/mainframe/mainuser?F=APPLY
I logged in today and quickly discovered I have no idea what
to do. Time to read up...
- Dave
I just looked through their rules and they are pretty hard core. They
are pretty clear nobody should use the system to learn zos and should
have training before you use the system. Looks like the ban people
without mercy and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the place to
casually go and check out zos.
4:32 p.m.
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:26 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
I just looked through their rules and they are pretty hard core. They are
pretty clear nobody should use the system to learn zos
and should have
training before you use the system. Looks like the ban people without mercy
and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the place to casually go and check
out zos.
I noticed the same thing and was a bit disappointed. On the other hand --
their system, their rules.
I guess there's always Hercules and ancient versions of MVS to bootstrap a
little experience with the basics.
-Andy
18 Apr
18 Apr
7 p.m.
On Wed, 17 Apr 2013, Andrew Hoerter wrote:
On Wed, Apr 17, 2013 at 4:26 PM, mc68010 <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
I just looked through their rules and they are pretty hard core. They are
If you want to play with MTS or MUSIC/SP, lemme know and I'll give you
access.
pretty clear nobody should use the system to
learn zos and should have
training before you use the system. Looks like the ban people without mercy
and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the place to casually go and check
out zos.
I noticed the same thing and was a bit disappointed. On the other hand --
their system, their rules.
I guess there's always Hercules and ancient versions of MVS to bootstrap a
little experience with the basics.
-Andy
--
Cory Smelosky
http://gewt.net/ Personal stuff
http://gimme-sympathy.org Experiments
17 Apr
17 Apr
4:40 p.m.
On 17-apr-2013 22:26, mc68010 wrote:
They are pretty clear nobody should use the system to
learn zos and
should have training before you use the system. Looks like the ban
people without mercy and very quickly too. Doesn't look like the
place to casually go and check out zos.
That's also what I remarked, or couldn't help but notice.
- MG
4268
days inactive
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