1 Mar
2012
1 Mar
'12
4:12 p.m.
I will answer in brief.
Hi Dave, so do I. now I think I understand the issue. It's about the
(old) open source discussion and daring to ask for money. I really don't
feel like arguing against that. What I know is that people deliver good
work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get
paid because this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to
spend money for things that make the product better.You also can spend
the money to train programmers so they use latest techniques and don't
do beginners faults. I don't speak for everyone involved, but: I scan
artefacts with a commercial scanner software, I process images with
Photoshop, and I use TotalCommander to organise files and put them up on
the FTP. This does not mean the images scanned and archived are less
preserved. I would not want to exchange a single tool. I enjoy using
them every single day.
1 Mar
1 Mar
8:49 p.m.
On 3/1/2012 1:12 PM, Christian Bartsch | KryoFlux Ltd. wrote:
Not relevant to the archival media question. If I want to go out x # of
years and work with what you are using a comparables, they certainly
stand an excellent chance of being in the state of being useful (jpgs,
pdfs, word files, (sorry word and MS are like cockroaches, they'll
never go away).
So to make a better case, I want a totally open and openly documented
tool not to deny you your livelyhood, but to ensure that in x# of years
if there are engineering questions about interfacing the archives and
tools to either vintage equipment, or simulators I have all the goods
totally documented and in my archive along with the images I produced as
I archived the stuff.
also many here on the list (Chuck) have great skills in copying old
media, but I fear that all of the domain knowledge that he rightfully
keeps to himself by doing the archival copies for himself will produce
the data on archival media, and satisfy his customers, but will be lost
out in the future when it could have been useful.
The horrible example of the C/PM image archives that vanished when Don
Maslin passed is not exactly the same problem, but is similar in that
the library he was compiling was lost when he passed.
I wish there were a good way to satisfy all of these, but I am mainly
interested in archiving anything I come across, and being able to
reproduce it in the future. And I like to collect things over which I
have total control. I don't mind the acquisition cost in this equation,
but it being closed would be a problem.
i do have one of the Diskferret board sets, for this reason. And I'm
one of the lame ones who has not had time to use it as yet. However I
have confidence that it will provide what I want, not only for the
floppys it was working with when I bought it, but with hard drives. I
have several 14" SMD drives which may come into play, and perhaps in an
ideal world some drums to digitize, and this is an ideal open tools to
do so with.
I doubt that Phil will be coming to my LGP30, but digitizing the drum's
contents would not be out of the question. I would be able to do the
engineering with him, hopefully should that happen in the future.
Jim
I will answer in brief.
Hi Dave, so do I. now I think I understand the issue. It's about the
(old) open source discussion and daring to ask for money. I really
don't feel like arguing against that. What I know is that people
deliver good work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact
that people get paid because this can be a very good motivation. It
also enables you to spend money for things that make the product
better.You also can spend the money to train programmers so they use
latest techniques and don't do beginners faults. I don't speak for
everyone involved, but: I scan artefacts with a commercial scanner
software, I process images with Photoshop, and I use TotalCommander to
organise files and put them up on the FTP. This does not mean the
images scanned and archived are less preserved. I would not want to
exchange a single tool. I enjoy using them every single day.
2 Mar
2 Mar
6:04 a.m.
Reading the following, I have to make some comments:
On Thu, 1 Mar 2012, jim s wrote:
i do have one of the Diskferret board sets, for this
reason. And I'm one of
the lame ones who has not had time to use it as yet. However I have
confidence that it will provide what I want, not only for the floppys it was
working with when I bought it, but with hard drives. I have several 14" SMD
drives which may come into play, and perhaps in an ideal world some drums to
digitize, and this is an ideal open tools to do so with.
I think the DiscFerret doesn't help with SMD drives as they have a
somewhat intelligent interface and pure uncoded, i.e. NRZ, data. I have
just built a "simple" interface for a PC on an ISA prototyping board
(with wire-wrap!) because I have the need to get the data off from several
SMD drives from an unknown machine with an unknown controller. Essentially
you need a lot of RS422 drivers/receivers (everything on the A and B cable
is differential!), some registers to control the bus and tag lines, and a
means to shift the bits into a buffer. Per se, it's not very difficult as
you have a nice read clock signal along the data signal on the bus. Just
read in all bits from index to index, and analyse that bit stream in
software. No need for a PLL or decoder whatsoever.
I doubt that Phil will be coming to my LGP30, but
digitizing the drum's
contents would not be out of the question. I would be able to do the
engineering with him, hopefully should that happen in the future.
The DiscFerret won't help with this drum either. Speaking of experience
(having two working LGP30s), you don't really need to digitize the drum if
the machine (or more exactly, the matrix drivers and read FFs) are
working, just hook up your logic analyser or whatever to the read FF and
select the desired track. Your read clock is the main clock (137 kHz for
the European version). Since there's no index pulse you need to read the C
register together with the two clock tracks S2*/S3 to get the number of
the next sector. The word mark is the sign bit. ... But you really only
need to do that if you absolutely can't get your LGP30 working.
When we got our first LGP30, before the machine itself was operational, we
had dumped the drum with a Dolch logic analyser and found a mostly empty
drum with some code fragment somewhere in the middle. We used some simple
TL084 opamps to digitize the signal and feed it into the pod.
Many years later we discovered that this is what is left after running the
LGP30 acceptance test.
Christian
10:57 a.m.
On 3/2/12 3:04 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
The DiscFerret won't help with this drum either.
Speaking of experience (having two working LGP30s), you don't really need to digitize
the drum if the machine (or more exactly, the matrix drivers and
read FFs) are working, just hook up your logic analyser or whatever to the read FF and
select the desired track. Your read clock is the main clock (137 kHz for the European
version). Since there's no
index pulse you need to read the C register together with the two clock tracks S2*/S3 to
get the number of the next sector. The word mark is the sign bit. ... But you really only
need to do that if
you absolutely can't get your LGP30 working.
When we got our first LGP30, before the machine itself was operational, we had dumped the
drum with a Dolch logic analyser and found a mostly empty drum with some code fragment
somewhere in the
middle. We used some simple TL084 opamps to digitize the signal and feed it into the
pod.
Many years later we discovered that this is what is left after running the LGP30
acceptance test.
Providing detailed information on this would be helpful in the future if someone needed to
build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum.
I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could probably be checked out if a replacement for
the drum could be put together.
This information really should be collected for any machine where the timing information
that drives the computer is on rotating media
(LGP-30, G-15, IBM 650, Recomp-II, D17B)
5:18 p.m.
Providing detailed information on this would be
helpful in the future if
someone needed to build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum.
I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could probably be checked out if a
replacement for the drum could be put together.
I thought the timing and track info on the drum was documented in the
tech manuals? At least for the G-15.
--
Will
3 Mar
3 Mar
10:19 a.m.
On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
Providing detailed information on this would be
helpful in the future if
someone needed to build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum.
What else do you need besides the service manual that contains all details
and schematics? There are timing diagrams of the timing tracks along with
all logic equations that are used to derive the individual parts from the
read signals (e.g. sign bit, address part, opcode part).
I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could probably
be checked out if a
replacement for the drum could be put together.
What exactly is the problem? From a first look at the G-15 docs, there
seem to be all required details of the drum and timing tracks.
Christian
1:19 p.m.
On 3/3/2012 7:19 AM, Christian Corti wrote:
On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Al Kossow wrote:
reference manuals and documentation have a nasty habit of being less
useful than an actual account of all of the procedures used by one who
actually performed some deed.
I would love to know what steps were used to read off a drum, if the
unit had to be functional to operate the drum, what was modified, how
was the drum spun up, what external circuitry was used to obtain the
data. I think there is one LGP-30 drum in our posession and two
LGP-30's, one functional, one maybe not so which all have drums.
Before I'd embark on the task I'd love a detailed explanation of what
you or your group did to do retrieve the data and store it, passively or
if you had to restore things, what and how.
There have been accounts here recently by people detailing what they did
in detail which would be helpful for the restorers of such hardware, and
that you digitized your drum is very interesting.
The construction of a replacement would be aided in the insight gained
in interfacing to the existing drum.
Providing detailed information on this would be
helpful in the future
if someone needed to build a non-mechanical replacement for the drum.
What else do you need besides the service manual that contains all
details and schematics? There are timing diagrams of the timing tracks
along with all logic equations that are used to derive the individual
parts from the read signals (e.g. sign bit, address part, opcode part).
I know of at least one Bendix G-15 that could
probably be checked out
if a replacement for the drum could be put together.
What exactly is the problem? From a first look at the G-15 docs, there
seem to be all required details of the drum and timing tracks.
Christian
2:16 p.m.
New subject: NCR Computer ID M05?
This poor thing is in really bad shape and full of dead spiders and
dirt. Can anyone tell me what it is from and if it is worth saving ?
It's really disgusting and not sure I want to put it in my car to drag
home from it's current location. I don't mean like a couple dead bugs in
it. There are thousands and physically it's pretty damaged.
I can find a few references to NCR M05 cpu's but, no pictures of the
actual guts. The label does say M05 on it anyway.
It's bigger than the pictures make it look. Probably 3' x 2' or a bit
larger.
http://imgur.com/a/Cja2y
6:03 p.m.
New subject: NCR Computer ID M05?
--- On Sat, 3/3/12, DC <mc68010 at gmail.com> wrote:
From: DC <mc68010 at gmail.com>
Subject: NCR Computer ID M05?
To: "On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 11:16 AM
This poor thing is in really bad
shape and full of dead spiders and dirt. Can anyone tell me
what it is from and if it is worth saving ? It's really
disgusting and not sure I want to put it in my car to drag
home from it's current location. I don't mean like a couple
dead bugs in it. There are thousands and physically it's
pretty damaged.
I can find a few references to NCR M05 cpu's but, no
pictures of the actual guts.???The label does
say M05 on it anyway.
It's bigger than the pictures make it look. Probably 3' x 2'
or a bit larger.
http://imgur.com/a/Cja2y
It looks a lot like the CPU box in my NCR 399, a photo can be seen here:
http://www.dvq.com/sale/ncr399-6.jpg
Bob
6:17 p.m.
New subject: NCR Computer ID M05?
That has to be it. Exact match minus the sitting in a field for ten
years part. I also found a picture of the cpu cage here
http://www.thecorememory.com/html/ncr_399.html
On 3/3/2012 3:03 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote:
It looks a lot like the CPU box in my NCR 399, a photo
can be seen
here: http://www.dvq.com/sale/ncr399-6.jpg Bob
5 Mar
5 Mar
2:37 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
ebay item 220965768120
These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has posted
this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is hard to
tell if the list is working or not anymore.
The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still
the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian
billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and have
the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course.
Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers.
2:55 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
Talk about a great conversational piece in your home...
"Oh that.... its the guidance computer for a thermonuclear missile....
no, seriously it is...."
Get a piece of glass and make one of the most unusual coffee tables for
your Man Cave :-)
Curt
DC wrote:
ebay item 220965768120
These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has
posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is
hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore.
The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still
the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian
billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and
have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course.
Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers.
3:31 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
Unless you already have one ...
Jim
On 3/4/2012 11:55 PM, Curt @ Atari Museum wrote:
Talk about a great conversational piece in your
home...
"Oh that.... its the guidance computer for a thermonuclear missile....
no, seriously it is...."
Get a piece of glass and make one of the most unusual coffee tables
for your Man Cave :-)
Curt
DC wrote:
ebay item 220965768120
These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has
posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It
is hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore.
The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals.
Still the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a
Russian billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on
it, and have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course.
Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers.
3:44 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
As a coffee table ? Turn it into a coffee table. I would. It won't hurt
it. Then you will be able to say, " I don't often make coffee tables
but, when I do I make them out of nuclear missiles."
On 3/5/2012 12:31 AM, jim s wrote:
Unless you already have one ...
Jim
3:40 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I looked in detail. It is a large chunk of magnesium scrap. no cards,
horrible preservation.
Jeesh did he find it in the ditch there? and a $100,000 reserve.
Almost feels like I'm taking troll bait, but this guy might be this
deluded and be serious.
I know of a system that can work (maybe two). Main ingredient missing
from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum
assembly).
We got the documentation and some drum scrap from an auction about a
year ago, which I think is on bitsavers, but this unit is as I said
mainly something this guy should try not to set on fire, or let further
corrode.
Jim
On 3/4/2012 11:37 PM, DC wrote:
ebay item 220965768120
These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has
posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is
hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore.
The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still
the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian
billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and
have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course.
Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers.
3:57 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
It looks like $100k is his buy it now price. Who know what his reserve
is. I never understood these high value reserve things. If he put 10k
as the reserve it would take about 100 people bidding to get there. I
wish they would just put a starting price and let people go from there.
Seriously though. It's not just a chunk of magnesium scrap. Everyone
knows that.
On 3/5/2012 12:40 AM, jim s wrote:
I looked in detail. It is a large chunk of magnesium
scrap. no
cards, horrible preservation.
Jeesh did he find it in the ditch there? and a $100,000 reserve.
Almost feels like I'm taking troll bait, but this guy might be this
deluded and be serious.
I know of a system that can work (maybe two). Main ingredient missing
from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum assembly).
We got the documentation and some drum scrap from an auction about a
year ago, which I think is on bitsavers, but this unit is as I said
mainly something this guy should try not to set on fire, or let
further corrode.
Jim
4:57 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
Yes, it is. It is a sad reminder that magnesium is a very active metal,
and you should take care of it.
Did you see any cards? The one(s) I have access to have all of theirs,
and actually work.
If you want to have the equivalent to a backplane and very expensive
scrap, as I said...
I emailed just in case the drum unit was not de-miled. The drums that
I've found with others helping (just reports on the items) all have the
casing, but no drum disk. Not clear if the drum is intact in this unit,
but if it is, then the value is all in the drum for someone who has the
unit already.
One photo has what appears to be the drum assembly, but the entire state
of preservation is horrible for the unit and may not be useful. That
said, the connectors appear to have all been pulled on the the drum, and
are dangling (and are in bad shape). So it may have been pulled,
demiled or messed with in the past and be useful.
I am cash poor, but would love to have the drum if it is intact with the
guts.
Jim
On 3/5/2012 12:57 AM, DC wrote:
Seriously though. It's not just a chunk of magnesium scrap. Everyone
knows that.
5:29 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I'm not saying it's worth 100k. Maybe it is though. Apple I can go for
more. Pretty sure there are more of them around . Still that isn't scrap
of any sort. Looks in great shape to me. Be great to have the cards
but, in the end I don't think it matters for something like this.
That is a very rare bit of computer and cold war technology there. If I
could afford to buy it I would. From what I read these were pretty much
the last nuclear missile technology to make it out into the public. I am
not 100% sure they couldn't swoop down and take it back if they wanted
to. Like moon rocks there are some things they can just take back. It
is just if they feel like bothering. That might be a concern when paying
a $100k for it.
On 3/5/2012 1:57 AM, jim s wrote:
Yes, it is. It is a sad reminder that magnesium is a
very active
metal, and you should take care of it.
Did you see any cards? The one(s) I have access to have all of
theirs, and actually work.
If you want to have the equivalent to a backplane and very expensive
scrap, as I said...
I emailed just in case the drum unit was not de-miled. The drums that
I've found with others helping (just reports on the items) all have
the casing, but no drum disk. Not clear if the drum is intact in this
unit, but if it is, then the value is all in the drum for someone who
has the unit already.
One photo has what appears to be the drum assembly, but the entire
state of preservation is horrible for the unit and may not be useful.
That said, the connectors appear to have all been pulled on the the
drum, and are dangling (and are in bad shape). So it may have been
pulled, demiled or messed with in the past and be useful.
I am cash poor, but would love to have the drum if it is intact with
the guts.
Jim
O
12:21 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 3/5/12 12:40 AM, jim s wrote:
I looked in detail. It is a large chunk of magnesium
scrap. no cards, horrible preservation.
I agree with Jim. The seller is delusional. There are several pictures on the web of what
it
should look like with all of its covers and cards on the web. You could make a better
looking
coffee table out of plywood.
1:04 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I don't think anyone would pay 100k for it but, it certainly isn't just
magnesium scrap. Having a fake made out of plywood is not the same as
telling people you have an actual piece of a missile. The CHM would be
nothing but, plywood mockups if it was. What would be the difference ?
Anyway, it's worth as much people are willing to pay for it. I am
constantly surprised. I am sure I will be for this too. Someone should
forward the auction it to Paul Allen.
On 3/5/2012 9:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
I agree with Jim. The seller is delusional. There are several pictures
on the web of what it
should look like with all of its covers and cards on the web. You
could make a better looking
coffee table out of plywood.
1:49 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I don't know bout the price, but the seller is just an old guy who
cleaned out a barn. He will be hopefully putting up more photos. He
says the drum center unit is missing, but I want to verify that.
He didn't know what the term "demil-ed" meant, nor inferred it from
being at DRMO auctions, so I'm inclined to believe it is just a "found
in the barn" situation.
I'd be guessing he wants piles for it, and may get it from the types who
like to have weird and sad relics like converted parts of classic
aircraft as furniture in their houses (sad because the ones who started
the business destroyed working aircraft).
In this case it would be a conversation starter, but as one with way
more of those in the house than any wife should (and does) put up with
it will get old fast.
I'm only ranting and apologize to DC, to who I should have thanked for
putting eyeballs on something I missed, because I'd really like to find
the drum.
There are sets of documentation and machine and carcass of the drum unit
out there, but nothing recorded electronically of what was run on them.
And I don't mean outbound to their destination, but in the schools where
most of the resided.
I'm hoping to get some history, as i suspect it ended up in the "barn"
when someone took it from a local school. It might be tracable, as I
think I saw a list somewhere exchanged between owners of these as to who
had them. It may be too late to find other bits of it he had and didn't
recognize.
thanks again DC for spotting and posting, you are coming at it from a
different angle than I am, and have a valid point.
And it is a lot of magnesium, if it lights off in your man cave it isn't
going to be pretty. I don't think it's the alloy kind used in wheels,
but a large chunk of fairly pure magnesium.
Jim
On 3/5/2012 10:04 AM, DC wrote:
I don't think anyone would pay 100k for it but, it
certainly isn't
just magnesium scrap. Having a fake made out of plywood is not the
same as telling people you have an actual piece of a missile. The CHM
would be nothing but, plywood mockups if it was. What would be the
difference ?
Anyway, it's worth as much people are willing to pay for it. I am
constantly surprised. I am sure I will be for this too. Someone should
forward the auction it to Paul Allen.
On 3/5/2012 9:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
I agree with Jim. The seller is delusional. There are several
pictures on the web of what it
should look like with all of its covers and cards on the web. You
could make a better looking
coffee table out of plywood.
2:51 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I know of a system that can work (maybe two). Main
ingredient missing
from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum assembly).
I thought that almost all of them were missing the delivery system and the
payload. Or are those considered "peripherals" to the computer?
Available after-market?
4:21 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 03/05/2012 02:51 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
The disk appears to be on that one but most everything else is missing
save for the back interconnect.
Many of the m the disk had crashed hard and was in need of serious work.
it also looks like it was found in a junk yard as it's not pretty.
Allison
I know of a
system that can work (maybe two). Main ingredient missing
from either is the drum (rotating part of the drum assembly).
I thought that
almost all of them were missing the delivery system and the
payload. Or are those considered "peripherals" to the computer?
Available after-market?
3:54 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 2012 Mar 4, at 11:37 PM, DC wrote:
ebay item 220965768120
Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I
get this from ebay:
Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked
due to legal restrictions in
some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to
prevent restricted items from
being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent
users from accessing items that
are not within the scope of said restrictions because of
limitations of existing technology.
Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may
cause, and we hope you may find
other items of interest on eBay.
3:59 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I would be more worried about Canada getting nuclear weapons than Iran
any day.
On 3/5/2012 12:54 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2012 Mar 4, at 11:37 PM, DC wrote:
ebay item 220965768120
Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I
get this from ebay:
Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked due
to legal restrictions in
some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to
prevent restricted items from
being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent users
from accessing items that
are not within the scope of said restrictions because of
limitations of existing technology.
Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may cause,
and we hope you may find
other items of interest on eBay.
1:39 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
The rate of return is what we are all worried about. when it is
returned on the tip of an ICBM that is not so good.
On 3/5/2012 8:56 AM, ben wrote:
On 3/5/2012 1:59 AM, DC wrote:
I would be more worried about Canada getting
nuclear weapons than Iran
any day.
No problem here, any NUKE's I find ; I'll send back to the U.S.
quick as possible.
5:47 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer - humor
On 3/5/2012 11:39 AM, jim s wrote:
The rate of return is what we are all worried about.
when it is returned
on the tip of an ICBM that is not so good.
How about I use this old bomber ... You get a free cowboy with every
payload. :)
Ben Strange glove.
6:56 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 05/03/2012 09:51, Christian Corti wrote:
On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
It's visible and biddable-on in the UK.
--
Pete Peter Turnbull
Network Manager
University of York
Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign
territory of Canada, I
get this from ebay:
[...]
The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US. 
7:17 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 2012-03-05 12:56, Pete Turnbull wrote:
On 05/03/2012 09:51, Christian Corti wrote:
That's starnge, because here, in the Netherlands, I can't view the
auction, whether with .nl, .com or .co.uk domains. And my IP address is
registers as originating in the UK.
.tsooJ
On Mon, 5 Mar 2012, Brent Hilpert wrote:
It's visible and biddable-on in the UK. Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign
territory of Canada, I
get this from ebay:
[...]
The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US.
2:54 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
Up here in the
dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada, I get
this from ebay:
[...]
The same in Germany, and problaby anywhere except the US.
3:26 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 3/5/12 11:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
(Or just the guidance system? and the other components
are permitted?)
As Will has mentioned in the past, releasing of D17Bs to schools was a one
time occurrence. The history is completely documented on the scanned material
from the Minuteman User's Group documents on
bitsavers.
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/d17/
I would appreciate it if people would READ it before saying anything more on
this subject.
6 Mar
6 Mar
12:43 a.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
Hi
I read one of them. There were enough going
out to schools the create a user group.
I'd have loved to tinker with one when I was in
school.
They were really slow though. I'd have thought
they'd need to be faster to control a missle.
For the time, anything that could compute was
cool.
I wonder how many working ones are left.
Even if it did,'t have the drum unit. That could easily
be replaced with something else to provide the
same function.
Dwight
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:26:36 -0800
From: aek at bitsavers.org
To:
Subject: Re: Minuteman Computer
On 3/5/12 11:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
(Or just the guidance system? and the other
components are permitted?)
As Will has mentioned in the past, releasing of D17Bs to schools was a one
time occurrence. The history is completely documented on the scanned material
from the Minuteman User's Group documents on bitsavers.
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/d17/
I would appreciate it if people would READ it before saying anything more on
this subject.
4:55 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 03/06/2012 12:43 AM, dwight elvey wrote:
Hi
I read one of them. There were enough going
out to schools the create a user group.
There weren't a lot (maybe 50 to 100)
but back then there
were maybe a few hundred Linc, and many other lab made
computers out there.
I'd have loved to tinker with one when I was in
school.
They were really slow though. I'd have thought
they'd need to be faster to control a missle.
I did, They were slow but careful programming made them appear
fast enough. They were extremely awkward to program though.
For the time, anything that could compute was
cool.
I wonder how many working ones are left.
Same here. I'd suspect the surface barrier transistors used
have seen half life failure due to germanium whiskers causing
internal shorts. It's a repairable thing.
Even if it did,'t have the drum unit. That could
easily
be replaced with something else to provide the
same function.
They were supplied with disk (it was a platter not a drum).
the disk was a multi head affair that provided data/program tracks
and multiple "registers". Flipflops being very costly in terms of
transistors (4-8 per bit) needed were very few. Everything was
bit serial.
They were a pain to power as they needed multiple voltages
at hefty currents and the disk had to have 400hz for the
spindle motor. All of the IO needed level conversion for the
intended use.
As a result many were studied, some powered and most just looked at.
the military didn't do a program like that mostly because the market
had moved on and the D37 was a clunker by industry standards
by time it was in use. No one would have wanted it by time it reached
retirement as the micro market and the PC were well established.
Add to that military paranoia got worse but that was not so much
an issue as lack of interest.
Add to that within two to 3 years of their arrival (D17) the micro (8008)
and PDP-8s, CDC160s and other cheap (under $10K) computers
were becoming common and they were far easier to use and
much faster. The world had already changed from a computing standpoint.
Allison
Dwight
Date: Mon, 5 Mar 2012 12:26:36 -0800
From: aek at bitsavers.org
To:
Subject: Re: Minuteman Computer
On 3/5/12 11:54 AM, Fred Cisin wrote:
(Or just the guidance system? and the other
components are permitted?)
As Will has mentioned in the past, releasing of D17Bs to schools was a one
time occurrence. The history is completely documented on the scanned material
from the Minuteman User's Group documents on bitsavers.
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/autonetics/d17/
I would appreciate it if people would READ it before saying anything more on
this subject.
10 Mar
10 Mar
12:13 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On Mon, Mar 05, 2012 at 12:54:49AM -0800, Brent Hilpert wrote:
On 2012 Mar 4, at 11:37 PM, DC wrote:
No problems looking at this from Switzerland. Looks like nobody is worried
about the Swiss aquiring ICBM technology ;-)
SCNR,
Alex.
--
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison
ebay item 220965768120
Up here in the dastardly and dangerous foreign territory of Canada,
I get this from ebay:
Unfortunately, access to this particular item has been blocked
due to legal restrictions in
some countries. We are blocking your viewing in an effort to
prevent restricted items from
being displayed. Regrettably, in some cases, we may prevent
users from accessing items that
are not within the scope of said restrictions because of
limitations of existing technology.
Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may
cause, and we hope you may find
other items of interest on eBay. 
13 Mar
13 Mar
2:13 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I found this while perusing old Computerworld editions. It is dated
June 14, 1972.
http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg
Rick Bensene
2:36 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Rick Bensene wrote:
I found this while perusing old Computerworld
editions. It is dated
June 14, 1972.
http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg
Last week I discovered that Penn State University also acquired one of
the guidance computers. A member of our Chemistry Department was in the
MCUG, and I found this in a Daily Collegian newspaper article from May 25,
1971 (about our Surplus Warehouse):
"The Surplus Warehouse also aids the departments by purchasing government
surplus equipment for them at low prices. For example, the Warehouse
recently acquired from the government a computer which was part of the
guidance system of the Minuteman Missile. The original cost to the
government was approximately $82,500 while the cost to the University was
only $500."
I'll do a little more digging and try to find some more information
about it.
Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology http://sturgeon.css.psu.edu/~mloewen/Oldtech/
2:38 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
Interesting. I wonder if a FOIA request might dig up all the documents
on this program and where they all ended up. Paperwork should all still
be somewhere. Make for an interesting article or museum exhibit.
On 3/13/2012 11:13 AM, Rick Bensene wrote:
I found this while perusing old Computerworld
editions. It is dated
June 14, 1972.
http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg
Rick Bensene
4:41 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
In article <B9639BAE3F34504E83FEEDD71D4AFB463D4093 at mail.bensene.com>,
"Rick Bensene" <rickb at bensene.com> writes:
I found this while perusing old Computerworld
editions. It is dated
June 14, 1972.
http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg
Direct link:
<http://books.google.com/books?id=V3lOHaVu8uUC&lpg=PA29&pg=PA29#v=onepage&f=false>
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 version available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
9:22 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
Here's the photo of them working on it.
http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710
Rob
On Mar 13, 2012, at 2:13 PM, Rick Bensene wrote:
I found this while perusing old Computerworld
editions. It is dated
June 14, 1972.
http://pail.bensene.com/Minuteman.jpg
Rick Bensene
Robert Borsuk
rborsuk at colourfull.com
Colourfull Creations
http://www.colourfull.com
9:50 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 03/13/2012 09:22 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote:
Here's the photo of them working on it.
http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710
Yay longhairs! ;)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:15 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
It looks like they were forced to work out of a janitor's closet in the
basement. Apparently, that project wasn't very important to MIT. Wood
top holding a fan. Looks like they even have more than just the
computer. Could it be the power supply unit below it ?
On 3/13/2012 6:50 PM, Dave McGuire wrote:
Yay longhairs! ;)
-Dave
10:54 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 03/13/2012 10:15 PM, DC wrote:
It looks like they were forced to work out of a
janitor's closet in the
basement. Apparently, that project wasn't very important to MIT. Wood
top holding a fan. Looks like they even have more than just the
computer. Could it be the power supply unit below it ?
MIT is full of "little nooks and crannies" like that. It could've
been that they (or their prof) didn't have "official" blessing (i.e.,
budget) to work on it, so they "found some space". Ya do what ya gotta
do. I'd just about kill to have one of those to hack on, just for the
challenge of it!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
10:47 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On Tue, 13 Mar 2012, Dave McGuire wrote:
On 03/13/2012 09:22 PM, Robert Borsuk wrote:
That jumped out at me too. The people in all the other photos have
"normal" haircuts, and here's a couple of heads repurposing a missle
guidance computer for peaceful uses :-)
Alexey
Here's the photo of them working on it.
http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710
Yay longhairs! ;)
10:53 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
On 03/13/2012 10:47 PM, Alexey Toptygin wrote:
That jumped out at me too. The people in all the other photos have
"normal" haircuts, and here's a couple of heads repurposing a missle
guidance computer for peaceful uses :-)
Those *are* the guys with normal haircuts!
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Here's the photo of them working on it.
http://webmuseum.mit.edu/browser.php?m=subjects&kv=312&i=8710
Yay longhairs! ;)
5 Mar
5 Mar
3:38 p.m.
New subject: Minuteman Computer
I had a long talk with Douglas, the seller. He knows some amount of
information about it, some correct some not. I've helped him with some
information, and will try to get / give more info.
He is an antique dealer in Rhode Island.
The unit came from a school, which I'm trying to get, and hope to later.
The drum unit is probably de-miled. all of the cards are missing.
The unit was taken when trashed by the school, literally by a janitor
and stored for many years. It was acquired several years later by
another individual (early September 2001, sound familiar).
Due to unwarranted hysteria the second owner was fearful it was
"illegal" and did nothing with it until recently. Douglas acquire it
for a substantial amount of loot, and does have quite a bit of skin in
the game.
I know there is only a market among those here who could get it probably
a small price (some of you may have lots of bucks) but I don't think
many will offer what he needs for it.
I'm thinking it will go to someone who wants a real gee-whiz sort of
gadget as said elsewhere.
I'm going to try to get more information and photos for bitsavers, or
for my own edification at any rate. If anyone on the list knows more
about the item directly and would help with information, contact me off
list, I have his phone #.
thanks
Jim
On 3/4/2012 11:37 PM, DC wrote:
ebay item 220965768120
These have come up a few times on this list. If someone else has
posted this already sorry and send your complaints to /dev/null. It is
hard to tell if the list is working or not anymore.
The only thing this seems to have left is the memory disk deals. Still
the bottom portion is a new bit I've never seen. If I was a Russian
billionaire I'd buy this for 100K, stick a slab of glass on it, and
have the best coffee table ever. On my yacht of course.
Great pictures anyway. Should archive those for bitsavers.
10:14 p.m.
New subject: Goofy Honeywell film from 1968
4 Mar
4 Mar
7:34 a.m.
New subject: Reading magnetic drums (was: Discferret broken?)
On Sat, 3 Mar 2012, jim s wrote:
I would love to know what steps were used to read off
a drum, if the unit had
to be functional to operate the drum, what was modified, how was the drum
spun up, what external circuitry was used to obtain the data. I think there
is one LGP-30 drum in our posession and two LGP-30's, one functional, one
maybe not so which all have drums.
First, I my opinion it is not so interesting in preserving the contents of
an LGP-30 drum, simply because there most probably will be either nothing
(e.g. after running the drum or acceptance test), or just 10.4 at the
beginning, then e.g. the ACT runtime system, variables and temporary words
(at track 63). There may be some text strings of a binary program, but
there won't be any sources.
But anyways, if you are looking at the drum, you'll cleary see what is
needed to read it: run it (motor), take the clock from the clock track
(clearly visible, its output is the coax cable), and the three timing
tracks. Then you can select any data track you like, the diode selection
matrix is almost self-explaining. We did all this even before we received
any documents or schematics of the machine. It really is very trivial.
We didn't modify anything, the drum was spun up by pluggin in the power
cable into the outlet (for the first try, we attached a power cable
directly to the drum motor; normally it goes to the relay box where
power is applyed after 50 seconds).
Before I'd embark on the task I'd love a
detailed explanation of what you or
your group did to do retrieve the data and store it, passively or if you had
to restore things, what and how.
There's not much to explain. The LGP-30 is a very simple and solid
machine. Clean all contacts (including tube sockets), have a look at the
power supply, relay box and magnetic constanter, look for broken wires,
disconnect the drum motor and fire up the machine. If it will pass the
three power-on phases you'll have an (at least almost) working machine.
Hook up the drum and start examining the contents. You may have a
defective diode on the logic board or on one plugin board, but that won't
destroy anything. Take a scope, trace any fault, repair it, et voila.
There have been accounts here recently by people
detailing what they did in
detail which would be helpful for the restorers of such hardware, and that
you digitized your drum is very interesting.
Is it? I find that very boring, especially since the task was unnecessary
because the machine worked almost right away (after 20 years of storage).
I think that we used the TL084 to digitize the read signal and feed the
outputs to the set and reset inputs of an RS-FF (e.g. SN7474 or SN7400).
That's it; it's essentially what the matrix drivers and read flip-flops do
in the machine. You can watch the signal on a scope or logic analyser and
decide whether there is something you want to preserve or not. In our case
the drum contents of both machines was very unimpressive.
The construction of a replacement would be aided in
the insight gained in
interfacing to the existing drum.
I'd probably use a microcontroller to generate the timing signals and some
sort of serdes with SRAM for the data. I've heard of at least one LGP-30
that had been upgraded this way.
But the details are described well enough in the serivce manual.
Christian
PS:
Apparently the English maintenance manual is not available, at least I
can't find it. The link to the German one has been posted several times
here, it is
ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/lgp30/docs/WHB.pdf
2 Mar
2 Mar
1:26 p.m.
On 02/03/12 11:04, Christian Corti wrote:
I think the DiscFerret doesn't help with SMD
drives as they have a
somewhat intelligent interface and pure uncoded, i.e. NRZ, data.
That's not strictly accurate. The DiscFerret has a 50MHz four-line High
Speed I/O interface. What you could do is use two lines to talk to an
I/O expander (read: microcontroller) which issues commands to the drive,
and use the other two for high-speed data and clock from the RS422
receivers.
You'd have to modify the microcode to make it work, but that's exactly
why I used an FPGA: it'll do anything you ask of it, depending on how
the logic array is programmed.
If you get a read-clock and a read-data line, use RDCLK to shift stuff
into a high speed shift register, then every eight clocks store it in a
FIFO. On the other side, use the same memory interface logic the
DiscFerret stock firmware uses (the MWR fifo and address counter). When
you get an index pulse, store the contents of the SR and latch the
number of bits stored into a holding register.
Most of the ACQCON logic would be common.
When we got our first LGP30, before the machine itself
was operational,
we had dumped the drum with a Dolch logic analyser and found a mostly
The LGP30.. I'm not 100% certain I understand the drive interface so
I'll refrain from commenting. Even so, I don't have access to an LGP, so
testing would be difficult at best.
I've no doubt that you could read it into a DiscFerret, again with a
microcode change and a buffer board, but there's no reason I'm aware of
which would make it impossible.
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means."
:)
Thanks,
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
3:10 p.m.
On 02/03/12 18:26, Philip Pemberton wrote:
That's not strictly accurate. The DiscFerret has a
50MHz four-line High
Speed I/O interface.
OK, I hammed this. The bus buffer / level translator for the HSIO can
actually go as far as 100 megabits per second (min pulse width of 10ns).
The guaranteed specification for the DiscFerret is a 50Mbps signal.
The chip in question is the TI TXB0104. Datasheet SCES650E, page six,
"Timing Requirements, Vcc_A = 3.3V".
It's also worth reading "Switching characteristics, Vcc_A=3.3V,
Vcc_B=5V" on page eight of the same datasheet.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
3:50 p.m.
My reply is somewhat academic in that I am unable to use either device at
the moment. However, if I was going to buy one, I know which one I'd
choose.
It's partly that, but actually I think there's more to it.
Firstly, I think it is a very bad idea to archive someing in a format
which is not fully docuemtned. The fact that there's somehign around
_now_ that can read it does not mean there will be soemthing aroudn in 50
years time that can read it. At least if you know the archive format
then you have a chance of creatign somethign to make sense of it.
Seocndly, these disk readers are, or at least should be, very verstile
devices. I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is available, so if
you want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other
type of disk then you can do so.
And thirdly, there;'s the question of support. I've had _much_ better
support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from
commerical software companies. This may be becuase I am often talkign to
the guy who wrote hte code in the former case. It may be becuase they
genuinely care. It may be becuase they don't simply say 'That information
is proprietory'. Nto that I need such support very often, if I have the
source code, schematics, etc, then I'll probably fix it myself (and tell
the author the problem I had, the fix, and so on).
I will answer
in brief.
Hi Dave, so do I. now I think I understand the issue. It's about the
(old) open source discussion and daring to ask for money. I really don't feel like arguing against that. What I know is that
people deliver good
work when they are motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get
paid because this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to
spend money for things that make the product better.You also can spend
the money to train programmers so they use latest techniques and don't
I think that's one of the msot insulting things against all the excellent
free software uthors that I have ever read. Are youy seriosuly claiming
that a program like gcc is no good becuase it's free and that the
programmers who wrote it are clueless and not motivated? [No, gcc is not
perfect. But it's better than several commercial C compilers I've been
forced to use].
Quite simply if that's your attidude I do not wish to do business with you.
-tony
5:33 p.m.
I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is
available, so if you
want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other
type of disk then you can do so.
Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor requires you to use
to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on
your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its
license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use
expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc).
And thirdly, there;'s the question of support.
I've had _much_ better
support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from
commerical software companies.
Me too - and that includes working at places with serious (expen$ive)
software support contracts. I'm sure good vendor support does exist,
evenin the commercial world, but it sure does seem to be a lot thinner
on the ground in the commercial software world than in the
gratuit-&-libre software world.
What I know is
that people deliver good work when they are
motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get paid because
this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to spend
money for things that make the product better. You also can spend
the money to train programmers [...]
I think that's one of the msot insulting
things against all the
excellent free software uthors that I have ever read. Are youy seriosuly claiming that a program like gcc is
no good
becuase it's free and that the programmers who wrote it are clueless
and not motivated?
No, I don't think cb was claiming that. Rather, I think cb was
claiming that paying programmers does not make a payer evil, nor the
resulting code bad. I agree with both parts of that; while I see
positive correlations in each case, I think the correlations are not
the result of direct causality, but rather that all the relevant things
correlate with basic philosophical and societal stances.
Furthermore, you appear to be confusing "code written for pay" and
"closed-source code". There are people paid to write open-source
software. (I've even been one of them, sometimes.)
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
7:06 p.m.
On 02/03/12 22:33, Mouse wrote:
Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor
requires you to use
to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on
your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its
license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use
expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc).
That's one of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web
Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from
Altera's FTP site.
Current versions are borderline garbage (SignalTap is utterly broken).
10.0 is the last one which properly works, and only on XP; I don't think
SignalTap debugging has ever worked on the Linux version.
That and Altera are better at keeping their parts in the supply chain.
Too many times I've sent out RFQs for Xilinx parts during pre-qual, only
to be told "Oh, it'll take N weeks for us to get you some of those."
Usually N is around 20...
Altera stuff I can get off the shelf from Farnell.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
7:15 p.m.
On 03/02/2012 07:06 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
On 02/03/12 22:33, Mouse wrote:
Huh? Same with Xilinx WebPack. Does it not support devices large
enough for the project? (it runs GREAT under Linux nowadays)
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor
requires you to use
to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on
your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its
license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use
expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc).
That's one of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web
Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from
Altera's FTP site.
8:46 p.m.
On 03/03/12 00:15, Dave McGuire wrote:
Current versions of Webpack need to be activated online if memory serves.
--
Phil.
classiccmp at philpem.me.uk
http://www.philpem.me.uk/
That's one
of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web
Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from
Altera's FTP site.
Huh? Same with Xilinx WebPack. Does it not support devices large
enough for the project? (it runs GREAT under Linux nowadays)
10:55 p.m.
On 03/02/2012 08:46 PM, Philip Pemberton wrote:
On 03/03/12 00:15, Dave McGuire wrote:
Current versions of Webpack need to be activated online if memory serves.
Well yes, you need a license code, but they're free and take five
minutes. I mean, sure, I wish it didn't need one, but it's not like the
old days of overpriced, poorly-supported-for-pay software with dongles
and crap like that.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
That's one of the reasons I used Altera parts over Xilinx. Quartus Web
Edition is free, doesn't need activating, and can be grabbed from
Altera's FTP site.
Huh? Same with Xilinx WebPack. Does it not support devices large
enough for the project? (it runs GREAT under Linux nowadays)
11:30 p.m.
Current
versions of Webpack need to be activated online if memory
serves.
Well yes, you need a license code, but they're free and take five
minutes. I mean, sure, I wish it didn't need one, but
it's not like the old
days of overpriced, poorly-supported-for-pay software with dongles
and crap like that.
Actually, it is rather like that, except that the `dongle' is
information instead of hardware. Technically easier to copy, but
illegal to do so in most jurisdictions, criminal in at least one
important one. (Unless of course legislators stop hiding their heads
in the sand and pretending the world hasn't changed, which I consider
highly unlikely.)
Mouse
11:36 p.m.
On 03/02/2012 11:30 PM, Mouse wrote:
...today. In a decade or two, once the vendor has imploded and nobody
knows even who all the successors-in-interest are, much less which one
owns the relevant rights, it becomes useless to anyone who doesn't
happen to already have a magic code.
Sure, but the licenses don't expire. This obviously isn't ideal (I
want the friggin' source code!), but it's not an obstacle worth skipping
a project over.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire, AK4HZ
New Kensington, PA
Current versions of Webpack need to be activated
online if memory
serves.
Well yes, you need a license code, but they're free and take five
minutes.
3 Mar
3 Mar
2:45 p.m.
I know that the FPGA code for the Diskferret is
available, so if you
want to modify it (at your own risk, of course) to read some other
type of disk then you can do so.
Yessss...assuming the binary blob the FPGA vendor requires you to use
to convert it into something the chip can take (a) doesn't explode on
your changed code and (b) is still runnable by then (does its
license-to-use expire? does it depend on an OS whose license-to-use
expires? does it insist on phoning home? etc). What I know is that people deliver good work when they
are
motivated. I see no evil in the fact that people get paid because
this can be a very good motivation. It also enables you to spend
money for things that make the product better. You also can spend
the money to train programmers [...]
I think that's one of the msot insulting
things against all the
excellent free software uthors that I have ever read. resulting code quality, it seems to be a relatively
poor one in many
cases, but that doesn't make it evil.)
I am not convicned it;'s a motivator at all, at least not for the better
programmerns (and hardware designers) that Iv'e worked with. Such people
always turn out the best code/circuitry that they can. it's a matter of
pride of them. They will not cut corners. And then there are people who
will just grind out code to get their wages, but said code will not be
well-written.
Maybe there are exceptions, but I think they're rare.
-tony
8:19 p.m.
However, I also feel that accurate information can
never hinder you.
Generally true, though I could probably construct a contrived
counterexample (think needle in a haystack).
(Based on the
resulting code quality, it seems to be a relatively
poor one in many cases, but that doesn't make it evil.)
I am not convicned
it;'s a motivator at all, at least not for the
better programmerns (and hardware designers) that Iv'e worked with.
Such people always turn out the best code/circuitry that they can.
4 Mar
4 Mar
2:30 p.m.
However, I also feel that accurate information
can never hinder you.
Generally true, though I could probably construct a contrived
counterexample (think needle in a haystack). (Based on
the resulting code quality, it seems to be a relatively
poor one in many cases, but that doesn't make it evil.)
I am not convicned
it;'s a motivator at all, at least not for the
better programmerns (and hardware designers) that Iv'e worked with.
Such people always turn out the best code/circuitry that they can. 
3 Mar
3 Mar
10:14 a.m.
On Fri, 2 Mar 2012, Tony Duell wrote:
And thirdly, there;'s the question of support.
I've had _much_ better
support -every time -- from the authors of free software than from
commerical software companies. This may be becuase I am often talkign to
the guy who wrote hte code in the former case. It may be becuase they
genuinely care. It may be becuase they don't simply say 'That information
is proprietory'. Nto that I need such support very often, if I have the
source code, schematics, etc, then I'll probably fix it myself (and tell
the author the problem I had, the fix, and so on).
In defense of the Software Preservation Society folks, I'll offer my
experience:
I am an admirer of Philip Pemberton's work, and voted with my wallet last
year by purchasing a discferret. I still look forward to a usable tool
chain based on that hardware, but the fact remains that it does not
currently exist. Needing a means to archive and image my 1000+ diskettes,
I purchased a Kryoflux board and set about archiving a mountain of 8" CP/M
diskettes (only the tip of the iceberg).
Technical issues arose trying to read a number of format types, and the
SPS software guru ("IPF") has been 100% engaged and responsive in working
torwards a solution. I have little doubt they will solve the problem in
the near term.
In the abstract, it would be great if all aspects of KF were opensource.
As a practical matter, I don't care. If I had the time and skills to
tweak the hardware and software in order to solve my immediate problem, I
would have done so for the DiscFerret or my older Catweasel controller
(which similarly cannot deal with the CP/M formats). The fact remains
that I have neither the time nor the skills, so I do not begrudge the lack
of source code.
SPS has my money for the KF hardware, but I have paid $0.00 for the use of
the software (since I don't do this for a living). Considering the
outlay, I am delighted with the service and support to date.
Steve
p.s. - I still have high hopes for the DiscFerret as a means to read both
diskettes and, particularly, MFM and RLL hard drives. The slow progress
on software support is disappointing, but I believe it is moving forward
and we'll all be better off when it gets here.
--
11:27 a.m.
New subject: Discferret (WAS: Discferret broken?)
p.s. - I still have high hopes for the DiscFerret as a
means to read both diskettes and, particularly, MFM and RLL hard drives. The slow
progress on software support is disappointing, but I believe it is moving forward and
we'll all be better off when it gets here.
The biggest issue is that there's only one person doing most of the work, with a
couple others helping. If more people were interested and willing and able to help
(especially on the code side of things), it would definitely go much faster.
Feel free to check out the IRC channel anytime, whether or not you can help in this way
;-)
#discferret at irc.freenode.net
--Dave
4518
days inactive
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days old
66 comments
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