11 Oct
2016
11 Oct
'16
1:07 p.m.
Hey folks,
Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has
had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.
I've never been a real "collector", I suppose. I don't feel a burning
need to fill every hole in a product line, or to put things on display.
I've also never been in this for the money, far from it. No, the only
reason I've ever collected classic computers is because I've loved
playing with them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights,
sounds, and smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work.
On the money front, as I said I've never been in this for the money.
There was a time when most of this stuff could just be had for free, and
that was fun! Going on rescue trips was a blast. I'll never regret
driving down to LA from the Bay Area to rescue a PDP-11/34, or the time
that a bunch of us got togethr and picked up an 11/45 and an Imlac PDS-1
from Bill Gosper's house. What a time that was -- I
didn't even keep any
of it, I was just there for the rescue and the
camaraderie.
But nowadays, there's so much less of that. 99% of what trades hands
seems to go back and forth on eBay for real big bucks. And that's
probably just the sign of a maturing hobby, but it's not really what I
enjoy.
And secondly, lately there's been a lot less of "firing up vintage
computers and seeing them work", and a whole lot more "carefully
replacing capacitors and praying that the vintage computer will still
fire up". We've reached the point where the hardware I love is dying.
It's been dying for years, I suppose, but now it's in hospice care. And,
frankly, that part of it is so much less fun for me than actually using
the systems. Am I just lazy? Maybe. And don't get me wrong, I've learned
SO MUCH about electronics from taking care of these systems, so I don't
consider it a loss at all. It's just not what I want to spend my time
on.
I've been ruminating on all of this pretty hard for the last couple of
months, and I've concluded that my enjoyment just isn't there any more.
Now that I'm surrounded by a bunch of stuff that I'm not getting
much out of, I feel like I'm being weighed down by the hobby. I think
it's time for me to move on and concentrate on other things.
I'm not sure yet what that means for my current collection. It's already
much smaller than it once was, as I've found homes for a lot of things
over the years. I've moved a lot, and every time I've moved I've found
homes for things I didn't want to take with me. It's probably time to do
that again, only without the moving part.
I think probably I'll have one last big "sale" of stuff, which I'll
post
about here. At this point most of what I have is vintage home computers,
terminals, and QBUS PDP-11 stuff, so not everyone will be interested in
it -- but maybe some people will.
-Seth
--
Seth Morabito
web at loomcom.com
11 Oct
11 Oct
1:41 p.m.
That is a real shame, but if you aren't enjoying it there us little point carrying on.
I also have to agree that it is dispiriting at times when you are constantly dealing with
new failures.
I suspect though that years later you may regret getting rid of your collection, you hear
this from many people. So I would suggest you don't get rid of *everything*, in case
you change your mind in the future.
Regards
Rob
Sent from my Windows 10 phone
From: Seth Morabito
2:48 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Seth
Morabito
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 1:07 PM
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Getting out of the hobby
Hey folks,
Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has had
me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there are two
things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money, and the age of
the stuff. I'll try to explain.
I've never been a real "collector", I suppose. I don't feel a burning
need
to fill every hole in a product line, or to put things on display.
I've also never been in this for the money, far from it. No, the only reason
I've ever collected classic computers is because I've loved playing with
them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights, sounds, and
smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work.
I'm not sure yet what that means for my current collection. It's already
much smaller than it once was, as I've found homes for a lot of things over
the years. I've moved a lot, and every time I've moved I've found homes for
things I didn't want to take with me. It's probably time to do that again,
only without the moving part.
I think probably I'll have one last big "sale" of stuff, which I'll
post
about here. At this point most of what I have is vintage home computers,
terminals, and QBUS PDP-11 stuff, so not everyone will be interested in it
-- but maybe some people will.
-Seth
--
Seth Morabito
web at loomcom.com
I hear ya, especially on the hospice stuff. This is an issue if you're
collecting cars newer than the mid-80s.. some of the computers (ie. ABS
controller) aren't available anymore and repairs are not possible. On older
cars you could always make what you didn't have (at great expense, yes) but
at least you could theoretically do it. Not likely with ICs.
I always enjoyed the repair aspect of the hobby more than use, although I do
enjoy some use. The learning is the best part, I think. It's almost a
letdown when something is already just working.
Hunting would be really fun -- I had that experience with cars but not
computers. Just doesn't seem to be much vintage stuff to hunt for in my
part of British Columbia.
Sorry to hear you're leaving. Best to you regardless!
5:35 p.m.
Yes, some things I've enjoy about the hobby is..
1. Admiring the "design" aspect of machines back in those days (all unique
and all different) and experiencing them hands-on
2. Learning about the machines, their origins and purpose (from reading,
watching videos and hands on) and thereby learning a lot about computer
history
3, Writing about them, videoing them.
4. Talking with others about them
5. Repairing them (and thereby learning a lot about digital electronics)
It's not my only hobby though, and VC doesn't dominate my life. The
nostalgic factor with me is not great. I was an adult before they were
popular (or in school) so I was never in my bedroom playing games with
others in my formative years. Although I did play games as an adult (some
arcade but esp, text-based Adventure games), my interest in them at the
time was always more as productivity tools, in particular for writing and
statistical analysis. There is SOME nostalgia in the TRS-80-type
culture...I can't deny that but I'm certainly not that interested in the
retro-gamer scene.
I've got very limited room, which means I've been very disciplined with
what I've got.
Eventually I hope to run a few private, temporary exhibitions, perhaps in
our local museum...maybe when I retire.
What will happen to them when I become old and infirm? Well, who knows. I
do have a daughter and step-son who are IT specialists. They may or may
not be interested. As it is, I'm still happy to pull them out, admire
them, reflect on the period they represent and keep them going if I can.
Terry (Tez)
P.S. Chuck, please stay active in the community. Your knowledge is on
disks and disk formats is legendary. Many (including me) appreciate the
help you've given them.
5:40 p.m.
On Oct 11, 2016 3:48 PM, "Brad H" <vintagecomputer at
bettercomputing.net>
wrote:
I always enjoyed the repair aspect of the hobby more
than use, although I
do
enjoy some use. The learning is the best part, I
think. It's almost a
letdown when something is already just working.
Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on some
of the items they sold. One time I bought an Atari 800 with such a sticker,
intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it worked
perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person to
have ever complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I brought
it back, i.e., they would break it for me.
7:19 p.m.
The learning
is the best part, I think. It's almost a
letdown when something is already just working.
Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on some
of the items they sold. One time I bought an Atari 800 with such a sticker,
intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it worked
perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person to
have ever complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I brought
it back, i.e., they would break it for me. 
9:19 p.m.
Hi Seth,
I'm sorry to see anyone leave the list or the hobby for any reason, but
especially because of comments made on the list.
I strongly agree with Rob. Hang on to some of your favorite toys. You
never know when you might want to play with them again. I have a lot of
regrets from letting go a lot of equipment that I might never find again.
Paul
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>
wrote:
some
The learning is the best part, I think. It's
almost a
letdown when something is already just working.
Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on of the items they sold. One time I bought an
Atari 800 with such a
sticker,
intending to part it out to repair other
machines. To my dismay, it
worked
perfectly. I went back and complained. They said
I was the only person to
have ever complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I
brought
it back, i.e., they would break it for me.
It's that attention to quality and customer satisfaction that is so sorely
lacking today.
--
------------------------------------ personal:
http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------
------------
9:22 p.m.
When I decided my collection gave more troubles than fun, I stored
everything in plastic boxes and stashed on a room at my mother's house.
Some years later...ta-daaa! :D Happiness forever! :D
2016-10-12 1:19 GMT-03:00 Paul Anderson <useddec at gmail.com>:
Hi Seth,
I'm sorry to see anyone leave the list or the hobby for any reason, but
especially because of comments made on the list.
I strongly agree with Rob. Hang on to some of your favorite toys. You
never know when you might want to play with them again. I have a lot of
regrets from letting go a lot of equipment that I might never find again.
Paul
On Tue, Oct 11, 2016 at 9:19 PM, Cameron Kaiser <spectre at floodgap.com>
wrote:
some
to
sorely
The learning is the best part, I think. It's
almost a
letdown when something is already just working.
Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not to Work" stickers on of the items they sold. One time I bought an
Atari 800 with such a
sticker,
intending to part it out to repair other
machines. To my dismay, it
worked
> perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person have ever
complained, but that they would honor the guarantee if I
brought
it back, i.e., they would break it for me.
It's that attention to quality and customer satisfaction that is so lacking today.
--
------------------------------------ personal:
http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com *
ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Drive defensively ... buy a tank. ------------------------------
------------
9:24 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2016 5:41 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: Getting out of the hobby
On Oct 11, 2016 3:48 PM, "Brad H" <vintagecomputer at
bettercomputing.net>
wrote:
I always enjoyed the repair aspect of the hobby more
than use,
although I
do
enjoy some use. The learning is the best part, I
think. It's almost
a letdown when something is already just working.
Weird Stuff Warehouse used to put "Guaranteed Not
to Work" stickers on some of the items they sold. One time I >bought an Atari 800
with such a sticker, intending to part it out to repair other machines. To my dismay, it
worked >perfectly. I went back and complained. They said I was the only person to have
ever complained, but that they would >honor the guarantee if I brought it back, i.e.,
they would break it for me.
That is hilarious, and awesome. :) It really does kind of suck the fun out of it. When I
got my Digital Group Z80 I couldn't even find a photo of one operating with something
on the screen. Mine wasn't operating at all so I literally had no idea what to
expect. When I finally got a (corrupted) prompt it was like discovering an ancient
Egyptian tomb. Sort of. :) I can't wait to try getting my Phideck working with it.
12 Oct
12 Oct
1:14 a.m.
On 10/11/2016 1:07 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
Hey folks,
Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has
had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.
Seth, as others said, sorry to hear you are losing interest, and don't
want to suggest that you should not move on to another interest. I had
a friend who went from competitive shooting (45ACP) to Skeet shooting
(3rd in the US), to racing boats (had at one time the US speed record
for a 6 cyl outboard), to Astronomy, and then on to cameras. So one can
evolve in the hobbies and move on.
I find that the thing I like that will suck me in forever is both the
thrill of the chase of finding something, and being really satisfied
when I find some collection of parts, or just a system that works. in
the former, I've bought interesting gizmos and years later have found
parts that complemented or were parts of the system, or even completed
it. In the latter, finding something and examining it after getting it
is the other part.
Just my $0.02 worth. I will probably thin the herd too, as since my
interest lies in some amount of the thrill of the chase, once I have
something, I hope to pass it along to someone else to enjoy.
The thing here that is unique to this list and other places is just the
collection of knowledge. I hope we don't lose out on what you've known
and you keep some connection to pass on what you've learned.
Best in your collecting. I'll be watching and be interested in your stuff.
thanks
Jim
10:20 p.m.
May I offer my two cents?
While this is totally non-specific to (vintage) computers, it applies
equally well. Vintage computers, like any other family of collectibles, is
following the same route that virtually any and every other family has
followed, is following or has followed. And it goes like this:
All family members are ranked by rarity and/or desirability, and as
expected, the best of the most desirable at any given moment will demand
the highest prices and the craziest accolades. But once the majority of the
"#1" stuff rises beyond the means of the average mortal, suddenly, the #2
and #3 items develop some clout and a following..
Soon enough, virtually all of #1 are in high-rolling private hands or
museums, and suddenly the #2 and #3 items receive new notice.. as after
all, they are drying up too, aren't they? And of course, they're just a
stone's throw from #1.. Today's #2 & #3 are tomorrow's #1.. (or #1.1, if
you prefer).
And you can all see where it goes from here. I don't need to go any
further; it's turtles all the way down, eh?
-Bill
On Wed, Oct 12, 2016 at 3:14 AM, jim stephens <jwsmail at jwsss.com> wrote:
On 10/11/2016 1:07 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
Hey folks,
Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has
had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.
Seth, as others said, sorry to hear you are losing interest, and don't
want to
suggest that you should not move on to another interest. I had a
friend who went from competitive shooting (45ACP) to Skeet shooting (3rd in
the US), to racing boats (had at one time the US speed record for a 6 cyl
outboard), to Astronomy, and then on to cameras. So one can evolve in the
hobbies and move on.
I find that the thing I like that will suck me in forever is both the
thrill of the chase of finding something, and being really satisfied when I
find some collection of parts, or just a system that works. in the former,
I've bought interesting gizmos and years later have found parts that
complemented or were parts of the system, or even completed it. In the
latter, finding something and examining it after getting it is the other
part.
Just my $0.02 worth. I will probably thin the herd too, as since my
interest lies in some amount of the thrill of the chase, once I have
something, I hope to pass it along to someone else to enjoy.
The thing here that is unique to this list and other places is just the
collection of knowledge. I hope we don't lose out on what you've known and
you keep some connection to pass on what you've learned.
Best in your collecting. I'll be watching and be interested in your stuff.
thanks
Jim
13 Oct
13 Oct
6:29 a.m.
On 10/11/2016 10:07 PM, Seth Morabito wrote:
I've ever collected classic computers is because
I've loved
playing with them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights,
sounds, and smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work.
Oh, I agree
so strongly!
On the money front, as I said I've never been in
this for the money.
There was a time when most of this stuff could just be had for free, and
that was fun! Going on rescue trips was a blast.
I'll never regret
driving down to LA from the Bay Area to rescue a PDP-11/34, or the time
that a bunch of us got togethr and picked up an 11/45 and an Imlac PDS-1
from Bill Gosper's house. What a time that was -- I didn't even keep any
of it, I was just there for the rescue and the camaraderie.
Oh, this part of your
posting remembers me to interesting times that
have passed without me realizing the point when that happened.
I also remember the feeling when you find some stash full of interesting
things. The dirt, cleaning, trucks and trailers full of gear. I liked
it. But in the last years those opportunities are getting rare. My last
real haul was in 2013 when I picked up some pdp8/e systems.
But who knows what will be...
And secondly, lately there's been a lot less of
"firing up vintage
computers and seeing them work", and a whole lot more "carefully
replacing capacitors and praying that the vintage computer will still
fire up". We've reached the point where the hardware I love is dying.
Hm,
don't fully agree. Yes, capacitors can be nasty. But repair is a big
part of the hobby.
When I fire up a machine, I always expect that it needs some repair.
Sometimes I thought of getting out of the hobby as well. It comsumes so
much (partially rented!) space full of strange "scrap". And during the
last years my life has moved on a bit, there's less time left.
On the other hand I always regretted badly when I let go something.
In the 1990s, I was about 17 and not yet in vintage computers, I put a
fully working mint condition and complete Tandy 200, including power
supply, manuals, original bag - to the trash can. I regretted that...
And the stuff you let go today, might never come back. Ok, QBus and
newer stuff might have a higher availability.
Kind regards
Philipp
--
Dipl.-Inf. (FH) Philipp Hachtmann
Buchdruck, Bleisatz, Spezialit?ten
Alemannstr. 21, D-30165 Hannover
Tel. 0511/3522222, Mobil 0171/2632239
Fax. 0511/3500439
philipp at hachtmann.com
www.tiegeldruck.de
UStdID DE 202668329
7:48 a.m.
Funny, there's this 11/23+ (BA11-S style) I bought from Pavl Zachary many years ago,
it's been a near-constant companion through all of my moves and most of the VCF
Midwests. Despite the bouncing, banging, and shuffling, it's always worked. It ran
24/7 at my home for much of its life, without so much as a hiccup.
We found a brand new 11/23+ a few weeks ago that promptly smoked its power supply on
power-on.
I have a second unit that I keep for spares, but the power supply gets flicked on
regularly whenever I can remember to do so, just to keep the caps from drying up.
I've never needed any of its parts.
My experience is that classic computers are like anything else that isn't exercised
regularly - it isn't just sufficient to repair them and take them out every few years
for use. They need love.
If it were me in your place, I'd pare down what you have and just use your favorites
on a regular basis for minimum grief.
---- On Tue, 11 Oct 2016 13:07:29 -0700Seth Morabito <lists at loomcom.com>
wrote ----
Hey folks,
Recent activity on the list, especially the "Ka... ching!" thread, has
had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.
I've never been a real "collector", I suppose. I don't feel a burning
need to fill every hole in a product line, or to put things on display.
I've also never been in this for the money, far from it. No, the only
reason I've ever collected classic computers is because I've loved
playing with them. That's really all there is to it. I enjoy the sights,
sounds, and smells of firing up vintage computers and seeing them work.
On the money front, as I said I've never been in this for the money.
There was a time when most of this stuff could just be had for free, and
that was fun! Going on rescue trips was a blast. I'll never regret
driving down to LA from the Bay Area to rescue a PDP-11/34, or the time
that a bunch of us got togethr and picked up an 11/45 and an Imlac PDS-1
from Bill Gosper's house. What a time that was -- I
didn't even keep any
of it, I was just there for the rescue and the camaraderie.
But nowadays, there's so much less of that. 99% of what trades hands
seems to go back and forth on eBay for real big bucks. And that's
probably just the sign of a maturing hobby, but it's not really what I
enjoy.
And secondly, lately there's been a lot less of "firing up vintage
computers and seeing them work", and a whole lot more "carefully
replacing capacitors and praying that the vintage computer will still
fire up". We've reached the point where the hardware I love is dying.
It's been dying for years, I suppose, but now it's in hospice care. And,
frankly, that part of it is so much less fun for me than actually using
the systems. Am I just lazy? Maybe. And don't get me wrong, I've learned
SO MUCH about electronics from taking care of these systems, so I don't
consider it a loss at all. It's just not what I want to spend my time
on.
I've been ruminating on all of this pretty hard for the last couple of
months, and I've concluded that my enjoyment just isn't there any more.
Now that I'm surrounded by a bunch of stuff that I'm not getting
much out of, I feel like I'm being weighed down by the hobby. I think
it's time for me to move on and concentrate on other things.
I'm not sure yet what that means for my current collection. It's already
much smaller than it once was, as I've found homes for a lot of things
over the years. I've moved a lot, and every time I've moved I've found
homes for things I didn't want to take with me. It's probably time to do
that again, only without the moving part.
I think probably I'll have one last big "sale" of stuff, which I'll post
about here. At this point most of what I have is vintage home computers,
terminals, and QBUS PDP-11 stuff, so not everyone will be interested in
it -- but maybe some people will.
-Seth
--
Seth Morabito
web at loomcom.com
10:46 a.m.
Recent activity on the list, especially the
"Ka... ching!" thread, has
had me reevaluating a lot of what I get out of this hobby. I think there
are two things going on that make it less fun for me now: The money,
and the age of the stuff. I'll try to explain.
Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones (for once). I started being interested
in classic computers long before most people, Back when I could find
interesting machines that I could afford. And I have kept them. For all
people told me to 'downsize the collection' when I was moving house,
I moved the lot.
So while I am saddened by the price rises, it doesn;t affect me too much.
I have enough projects to keep me going for the rest of my life and then
some :-) (And before somebody asks, yes I have made a will). The problem
for me (being selfish) about high prices is that if I am missing some option
that I want/need, I am probably not going to be able to afford it.
It does sadden me, though, that many enthusiasts are not going to be
able to get interesting machines to play with and learn from. I am very
much in favour of running these old machines, the sort of collector who
buys them as an investment and never turns them on has nothing in
common with me. And I do not accept that people who have paid a lot
for a machine will look after it better than those who (a few years
earlier) got it for peanuts.
The nostalgia aspect doesn't really interest me. I do not want the home
computers that friends had, I do not want to play the games I didn't
play years ago. I want interesting pieces of electronics that I probably
hadn't heard of when they were current.
The age of the hardware doesn't bother me. Sure I have to replace
antisocial mains filter capacitors, replace failed ICs, etc. But I was doing
that 20 years ago. So that doesn't seem to be a recent problem.
I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of
emulators running on hardware I don't understand. And add-ons to
perfectly understandable and hackable machines using microcontrollers
and FPGAs that you can't probe with a logic analyser. That sort of thing
is what I got into classic computing to avoid, so I am not going to
put such devices into my PDPs, etc.
-tony
5 p.m.
On 10/13/2016 12:46 PM, tony duell wrote:
Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones (for once). I
started being interested
in classic computers long before most people...
...
I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of
emulators running on hardware I don't understand. And add-ons to
perfectly understandable and hackable machines using microcontrollers
and FPGAs that you can't probe with a logic analyser. That sort of thing
is what I got into classic computing to avoid, so I am not going to
put such devices into my PDPs, etc.
-tony
Hear, hear!
- J.
8:59 p.m.
Couple more words on this..
"I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of
emulators running on hardware I don't understand"
There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that this
list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As noted,
the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron' gear,
many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
To summarize, the future of a list like this is in the 8-bit (even 16-bit)
"home computer" kids.. like myself. They are fond of CBM, Atari, Apple,
BBC, TI, Timex-Sinclair, Osborne, Kaypro, Wang and so on. If the hobby is
to remain alive, these folks need to be welcomed in..
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 7:00 PM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 10/13/2016 12:46 PM, tony duell wrote:
Perhaps I am one of the lucky ones (for once). I
started being interested
in classic computers long before most people...
...
I do feel the hobby has changed. I haven't, which is why I don't post
much here any more. When I started it was all people trying to restore
and run the genuine old hardware. Now it seems there are a lot of
emulators running on hardware I don't understand. And add-ons to
perfectly understandable and hackable machines using microcontrollers
and FPGAs that you can't probe with a logic analyser. That sort of thing
is what I got into classic computing to avoid, so I am not going to
put such devices into my PDPs, etc.
-tony
Hear, hear!
- J.
9:39 p.m.
There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks
who are most
definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that this
list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As noted,
the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron' gear,
many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
To summarize, the future of a list like this is in the
8-bit (even 16-bit)
"home computer" kids.. like myself. They are fond of CBM, Atari, Apple,
BBC, TI, Timex-Sinclair, Osborne, Kaypro, Wang and so on. If the hobby is
to remain alive, these folks need to be welcomed in..
There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware.
There are exceptions of course.
-tony
10:03 p.m.
"There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware."
You don't really think that retro video gaming is the singular, or even the
primary focus of 8-bit micro nostalgia, do you? That seems like a bit of a
shallow view, at least from my perspective.
"There are exceptions of course."
I'd offer that the membership - current and future - is largely composed of
'exceptions', and always will be. Simple truth is that +most+ folks simply
don't give a gnat's arse about any of this stupid old crap
that we've cultivated such an interest in, and built a culture around it.
On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 11:39 PM, tony duell <ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk>
wrote:
There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger
folks who are most
definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that this
list hasn't traditionally offered much of a draw for these users. As
noted,
the list was formed by and for users of the
classic-era 'big iron' gear,
many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
To summarize, the future of a list like this is
in the 8-bit (even
16-bit)
"home computer" kids.. like myself.
They are fond of CBM, Atari, Apple,
BBC, TI, Timex-Sinclair, Osborne, Kaypro, Wang and so on. If the hobby is
to remain alive, these folks need to be welcomed in..
There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware.
There are exceptions of course.
-tony
14 Oct
14 Oct
7:24 a.m.
"There
are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home micro games they
grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware."
You don't really think that retro video gaming is the singular, or even the
primary focus of 8-bit micro nostalgia, do you? That seems like a bit of a
shallow view, at least from my perspective.
13 Oct
13 Oct
11:13 p.m.
On 10/13/2016 9:39 PM, tony duell wrote:
Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost
from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
Earliest I could find (I think)
From ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk *Wed Apr 2 20:42:09 1997*
From: ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk (*A.R. Duell)*
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 1997 20:42:09 BST
Subject: How long will they last?
In-Reply-To:
<Pine.ULT.3.91a.970331175254.2754A-100000 at booster.bothell.washington.edu>;
from "Bill Whitson" at Mar 31, 97 6:01 pm
Message-ID: <199704021942.12089 at club.eng.cam.ac.uk>
I was talking to a friend this weekend who brought
up this idea that before long EPROMs in our old
computers are going to start to go bad. This is
something I've heard before but, to be honest, I
don't know enough to make a judgement on it. If
this is the case, I suppose I should be burning
backups.
Don't bother with burning backups (after all, the backup will only last
another 10 years), but dump the data (as a plain binary file) to a
suitable archival storage medium.
What I recomend is _before_ even powering up a machine is to dump all the
ROMs, the PALs (an amazing number of classic computers have
non-copy-protected PALS), etc to a PC-format disk. Then punch any really
rare stuff onto paper tape (You may laugh, but I've _never_ found a paper
tape that I can't read, and EPROM files are not that big in general). If
the chips ever fail in the future, then It's easy to burn a new EPROM
then.
While I'm at it... What are some other concerns
along these lines. What should we be planning
for as these machines grow 5, 10, 15 years older?
Well, there's no problem with standard electronic parts (resistors,
capacitors, TTL chips, etc). I don't think you'll have any problems
finding those in 15 years time.
Other chips are more of a problem. AMD2900 bit-slice chips are getting
hard to find, and a lot of minicomputers and their peripherals depend on
them. But I'm not sure that if I buy any now they'll still be good in 10
years time.
ASICs are a big problem. Basically, there's no hope if they fail. You
can't copy them at home. The best thing to do is to figure out _exactly_
how they work, the timing of all the signals, etc, and to record that. If
the chip fails, and you can't get one, then at least you can make a clone
out of TTL or something like a Xilinx FPGA.
I'd also recomend recording any information now that would be of use if
the machine failed. If you know what you are doing, note down the voltages
on the CRT electrodes in a monitor. The waveforms in the PLL of a disk
controller, that sort of thing. Basically, annotate the service manual
with details of _your_ machine.
Bill Whitson
ClassicCmp "owner"
bcw at u.washington.edu bill at booster.u.washington.edu
--
-tony
ard12 at eng.cam.ac.uk
The gates in my computer are AND,OR and NOT, not Bill
14 Oct
14 Oct
7:19 a.m.
On 10/13/2016 9:39 PM, tony duell wrote:
[Message deleted]
That may well have been my first message to the list.
However, when I joined you had to send a message to the list owner (looks like
I mis-remembered, it wasn't Selam) and explain why you should be accepted
This was discontinued after about a day due to tbe number of people who
wanted to join.
Anyway, in said message (sent by private e-mail, and thus presumably lost)
I asked if it was a micros-only list. The original impression I got was that it
might be, and I wanted to be sure before talking about PDP11s and PERQs.
One of the early versions of the FAQ for this list has a question basically
covering this and pointing out that its a misconception that this is a
micros-only list.
Before anyone asks, microcomputers (provided they are 'classic') are,
and have always been, welcome here.
-tony
Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member
almost from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
Earliest I could find (I think)
5:22 a.m.
On 14/10/2016 05:39, tony duell wrote:
That's right - except it was started in 1997 and run by Bill Whitson at
the University of Washington - and I joined a few months after it
started. Same experience as Tony.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
As noted,
the list was formed by and for users of the classic-era 'big iron' gear,
many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in one form or another.
Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?' 
6:01 a.m.
On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, Pete Turnbull wrote:
That's right - except it was started in 1997 and
run by Bill Whitson at the
University of Washington - and I joined a few months after it started. Same
experience as Tony.
I normally don't post much here; I read everything, but I don't do much
with my collection anymore. Bill advertised his proposed new mailing list
on alt.folklore.computers (and, I'm sure, other places; that was where I
read it) and you had to write a paragraph or two on why you wanted to
join. I don't have the message Bill wrote back to me anymore, but I
remember him telling me I was number 6 to reply. My message to him, which
I did save, is dated the evening of March 12, 1997, and I seem to recall
the list started a couple of days later.
The list's 20th anniversary is coming up very soon!
Richard Schauer
6:21 a.m.
Spurred by the conversation about the state of the hobby, micro vs mini and the relevance
of this list to both classes, I thought I?d articulate what motivates me to those not into
the micro scene.
I am a micro guy. I was a kid in the late 70s early 80s so that is where my passion lies.
Being able to afford all of those incredible machines that I could only read about in
magazines and dream about at night back then is a huge motivator for me. Specifically, I
mostly collect and restore TRS-80s with an emphasis on the Model II line of big 8?
business class machines, including the Models II, 12, 16, 16B and 6000. I try my best
given the limited free time I have to encourage the growth of the community. I write
software for these computers that leverages my modern day programming skills such as a
Wikipedia browser called TRSWiki and a Dropbox client called TRS-Box. I host a monthly
podcast affectionatley called TRS80 Trash Talk with a couple of other notable folks in the
TRS-80 community. I promote the rescue and preservation of the Model II line of software
and documentation in the model2archive.
I really enjoy the conversations on this list even though most of it is about hardware
that I am unfamiliar with since it is before my time. I learn a lot from the "old
timers? (typed with utmost respect!) on this list and their websites, especially the 8?
floppy experts. While most of the TRS-80 specific traffic is either in the TRS-80 Yahoo
Group or on the VCForum Tandy group, I?d definitely encourage more micro computer
discussion on this list?otherwise I fear it may stagnate. As new people join the hobby
they are more likely to be micro focused given that collectors usually collect that which
they are familiar with from some time in their lives.
Pete
7:15 a.m.
On Fri, 14 Oct 2016, tony duell wrote:
> There are still plenty of enthusiastic, younger folks who are most
> definitely into running the "genuine old hardware" - it's just that
this
> list hasn't traditionally offered much of a
draw for these users. As
noted,
> the list was formed by and for users of the
classic-era 'big iron'
gear,
> many of whom have simply succumbed to attrition in
one form or another.
Actually, it wasn't. I have been a member almost
from day 1, and my first
question to the list founder (I think it was Selam) was 'Are
minicomputers
welcome on the list, or is it micros only?'
> To summarize, the future of a list like this is in
the 8-bit (even
16-bit)
> "home computer" kids.. like myself. They
are fond of CBM, Atari, Apple,
> BBC, TI, Timex-Sinclair, Osborne, Kaypro, Wang and so on. If the hobby
is
> to remain alive, these folks need to be welcomed
in..
There are plenty of people who play the 8-bit home
micro games they
grew up playing, but many of them (at least the ones I know of) run them
on a PC-based emulator not the real hardware.
There are exceptions of course.
Okay, I'll bite. I'm in my mid-30's. I've always loved older gear of
all types: A/V, computers, photographic, automotive, you name it.
For me, its the thrill of running something discarded or obsolete,
learning all I can about it, fixing it and then doing something useful
with it.
I'm currently writing this on an ATARI 800, booted to a "VT100" terminal
program off a 5 1/4 disk drive, talking through an original serial
interface box, direct to OPA0 on my VMS box. The only modern piece of
hardware between me and the world right now is the internet connection.
I don't spend much on the pieces I aquire, but I tend to stay pretty
focused. Similarly, I don't sell the stuff I pass on for very much
either. I try to keep it in the community -- when I cut my pile in half
a couple years ago, I probably could have doubled or tripled my money
had I sold on ebay rather than to local club members.
All that having been said, I really really want to aquire a PDP-11 and
build an S100 machine and find a real VT100. Given the price of these
things in the world right now... And here is where I agree with the OP,
it sucks, competing between the scrappers and the heavy duty collectors
is just something this guy can't do.
Anyway, not sure this actually contributes to the conversation, but I
felt compelled to chime in at some point.
Best,
--
Jason
Sent from my DEC 3000 running VMS 8.4
9:58 a.m.
* Jason Howe <jason at smbfc.net> [161014 10:15]:
[..SNIP..]
Okay, I'll bite. I'm in my mid-30's.
I've always loved older gear of
all types: A/V, computers, photographic, automotive, you name it.
For me, its the thrill of running something discarded or obsolete,
learning all I can about it, fixing it and then doing something useful
with it.
I'm currently writing this on an ATARI 800, booted to a "VT100" terminal
program off a 5 1/4 disk drive, talking through an original serial
interface box, direct to OPA0 on my VMS box. The only modern piece of
hardware between me and the world right now is the internet connection.
I don't spend much on the pieces I aquire, but I tend to stay pretty
focused. Similarly, I don't sell the stuff I pass on for very much
either. I try to keep it in the community -- when I cut my pile in half
a couple years ago, I probably could have doubled or tripled my money
had I sold on ebay rather than to local club members.
All that having been said, I really really want to aquire a PDP-11 and
build an S100 machine and find a real VT100. Given the price of these
things in the world right now... And here is where I agree with the OP,
it sucks, competing between the scrappers and the heavy duty collectors
is just something this guy can't do.
Anyway, not sure this actually contributes to the conversation, but I
felt compelled to chime in at some point.
Best,
--
Jason
Sent from my DEC 3000 running VMS 8.4
Hi Jason,
You might want to indicate where you are geographically as someone near
you might have a PDP-11?
As for building an S-100 system. Check out the s100computers Google
group for newly designed S-100 boards available pretty much at cost as
long as you're up to sourcing parts and doing all the soldering
yourself. Feel free to contact me via private email if you're
interested and I can point you to the group (and I have many of the
boards available as well.)
Todd
2992
days inactive
2995
days old
25 comments
19 participants
participants (19)
-
alexandre.tabajara＠gmail.com -
ard＠p850ug1.demon.co.uk -
drlegendre＠gmail.com -
hachti＠hachti.de -
jason＠smbfc.net -
jrw＠lolqb.us -
js＠cimmeri.com -
jwsmail＠jwsss.com -
lists＠loomcom.com -
pete＠dunnington.plus.com -
pete＠pski.net -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com -
rws＠ripco.com -
spacewar＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com -
tacoman656＠gmail.com -
terry＠webweavers.co.nz -
useddec＠gmail.com -
vintagecomputer＠bettercomputing.net