5 Feb
2007
5 Feb
'07
1:13 p.m.
The problem with putting floppy images on a DVD is
that if you lose
or destroy that DVD you lose a ton of data
Well, rule #1 is never have a single copy of backup data.
Rule #2 is have an off-site copy.
That single DVD is going to be a heck of a lot easier to migrate
to the next generation of media than trying to re-read those floppies
again (if they are still even readable).
A single copy of something on aging media is a problem I face at CHM.
It's what I call a 'latent archive'. If you don't actually RECOVER the
data on an old tape or disk, you can't be assured that you actually
have anything other than the physical object.
5 Feb
5 Feb
2:20 p.m.
Al Kossow wrote:
rule 3 which you have touched on, but not made a
rule is to actually test the data, preferably on another
device than the one you backed it up on.
I am amazed at the number of backups that are
incomplete, or written on a misaligned device and
that device dies, and the data is recoverable
only with great difficulty.
Also had more problems with multi volume backups
where the software prompted for the additional media,
and the operators or backup people took that as
an option, not a requirement and only had one
volume of a multi volume backup.
jim
The problem
with putting floppy images on a DVD is that if you lose
or destroy that DVD you lose a ton of data
Well, rule #1 is never have a single copy of backup data.
Rule #2 is have an off-site copy. 
7 Feb
7 Feb
10:41 a.m.
At 04:20 PM 2/5/2007, jim wrote:
rule 3 which you have touched on, but not made a
rule is to actually test the data, preferably on another
device than the one you backed it up on.
"Unless you've recovered the system from the backups,
you only think you have a backup."
- John
5 Feb
5 Feb
3:13 p.m.
On 5 Feb 2007 at 13:13, someone wrote to Al Kossow:
> The problem with putting floppy images on a DVD
is that if you lose
> or destroy that DVD you lose a ton of data
Here's where I get uneasy. Judging from my own experience with DVD-R
type media, I have the suspicion that DVD-R media is probably less
reliable in the long term than some forms of CD-R. I don't see CD-
capable drives going away anytime soon, as there's a vast ocean of
recorded music in that format; so the mechanism at least will be with
us for a long time.
For archiving our stuff and our customers' data, we use Mitsui/MAM-A
"gold on gold" CD-R media. Mitsui claims that the storage life of
the dyes used is in excess of 300 years. I can but surmise that it's
our best bet. While I'd like to believe that DVD-R media has the
same permanence, my problems with DVD players successfully reading
movies and such makes me suspicious. It could be that DVD is just
"pushing" the technology a bit.
Think about it this way. Would you have been better or worse off
archiving your old DS2D 3.5" floppies to 3.5" DSHD or DSED? I know
from experience that 8" floppies are easily good
for 30 years; I'm
no so sure about more "modern" floppies. I'd
be surprised if more
than half of a brand-new 15-year old box of DSED floppies formatted
up error-free. One of these days I'll give it a try.
Storage for CD-Rs in stlil in styrene jewel cases. We'll
occasionally use PVC cases as mailers (they survive the rigors of the
USPS better), but we advise customers to use traditional styrene
cases for storage. From what I've read on the archivists' list, some
PVC material has been found to outgas chlorine.
Cheers,
Chuck
6:23 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
For archiving our stuff and our customers' data,
we use Mitsui/MAM-A
"gold on gold" CD-R media. Mitsui claims that the storage life of
the dyes used is in excess of 300 years. I can but surmise that it's
our best bet. While I'd like to believe that DVD-R media has the
same permanence, my problems with DVD players successfully reading
movies and such makes me suspicious. It could be that DVD is just
"pushing" the technology a bit.
You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM has 1.32x the
Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
8:44 p.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 5 Feb 2007 at 20:23, Jim Leonard wrote:
My point is that the basic substrate technology is the same, but just to
be sure, they added 33% more error correction.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM
has 1.32x the
Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD.
I don't see the correlation. What good is better error correction if
it's built on a less reliable technology? 
6 Feb
6 Feb
8:32 a.m.
Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 5 Feb 2007 at 20:23, Jim Leonard wrote:
Well said :) If the optical media were enclosed in a case (CD caddies,
anyone?) then at least it would go some way toward preventing damage from
scratches, fingerprints etc.
I've seen CD media that's only four years old, has been dry-stored in original
cases and away from light which has huge rot spots all over the discs - so it
seems that deterioration can easily happen naturally even in good conditions
with certain discs.
Then of course there are huge potential incompatibility issues between the
media, the drives, and the authoring process. It seems there's no way of
knowing that a disc written in one drive will be at all readable in a
different drive - not something you want for backups!
All of which raises interesting questions for preservation; we know that the
average person makes no backups - but even if they do, they're likely to be on
CD these days, which raises interesting questions as to how much will have
survived 20 years down the line. I don't believe that the level of recoverable
data will be as high in 20 years as it is now for 20 year old floppies...
cheers
Jules
You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM
has 1.32x the
Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD.
I don't see the correlation. What good is better error correction if
it's built on a less reliable technology? 
8:51 a.m.
Jules Richardson wrote:
All of which raises interesting questions for
preservation; we know
that the average person makes no backups - but even if they do,
they're likely to be on CD these days, which raises interesting
questions as to how much will have survived 20 years down the line. I
don't believe that the level of recoverable data will be as high in
20 years as it is now for 20 year old floppies...
That depends on how you measure it. If you measure that the percentage
of all data created that survives to the 20-year mark, you may be right.
If you mean the absolute amount of data that survives to the 20-year
mark then you are wrong - I'm sure at least _one_ of my DVDs will make
it that far, so that beats all floppy data in existence into a cocked
hat!
Antonio
8:56 a.m.
In article <45C8ADAE.5000206 at yahoo.co.uk>,
Jules Richardson <julesrichardsonuk at yahoo.co.uk> writes:
Then of course there are huge potential
incompatibility issues between the
media, the drives, and the authoring process. It seems there's no way of
knowing that a disc written in one drive will be at all readable in a
different drive - not something you want for backups!
I don't know that I'd characterize it as a "huge potential" since
I've
never heard of anyone having this problem except for some people on
this list.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/download/index.html>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://blogs.xmission.com/legalize/>
10:04 a.m.
Jim Leonard wrote:
Chuck Guzis wrote:
I'd like to read up on DVD technology too but I've not been able
to locate much (I'd like to read the various standards that
detail the physical layer and so on, not some non-technical
overview - I can find plenty of those.)
Pointers would be appreciated (paying ECMA or whoever would not :-))
I did come across an article which was _slightly_ more technical
than the others I've seen. It boiled down to "DVD+R is better
because the way it tracks the data stream and the error correction
were both improved" (or something like that). Naturally I now canot
find any trace of it. (Not that it went into sufficient depth,
it just scratched the surface a little deeper than the other
articles I've seen).
Antonio
For archiving our stuff and our customers'
data, we use Mitsui/MAM-A
"gold on gold" CD-R media. Mitsui claims that the storage life of
the dyes used is in excess of 300 years. I can but surmise that it's
our best bet. While I'd like to believe that DVD-R media has the
same permanence, my problems with DVD players successfully reading
movies and such makes me suspicious. It could be that DVD is just
"pushing" the technology a bit.
You should read up on DVD technology. DVD-ROM has 1.32x the
Reed-Solomon error-correction of CD.
7:54 p.m.
arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
I did come across an article which was _slightly_ more
technical
than the others I've seen. It boiled down to "DVD+R is better
because the way it tracks the data stream and the error correction
were both improved" (or something like that). Naturally I now canot
find any trace of it. (Not that it went into sufficient depth,
it just scratched the surface a little deeper than the other
articles I've seen).
And yet, DVD-R has traditionally been recognized as more compatible with
set-top devices. So go figure :-)
However, the basic substrate tech is the same between DVD and CD so my
comment about more error correction is still valid.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
8:05 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 10:54 PM
Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence
arcarlini at iee.org wrote:
My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont recognize
those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's.
I did come across an article which was _slightly_
more technical
than the others I've seen. It boiled down to "DVD+R is better
because the way it tracks the data stream and the error correction
were both improved" (or something like that). Naturally I now canot
find any trace of it. (Not that it went into sufficient depth,
it just scratched the surface a little deeper than the other
articles I've seen).
And yet, DVD-R has traditionally been recognized as more compatible with
set-top devices. So go figure :-)
However, the basic substrate tech is the same between DVD and CD so my
comment about more error correction is still valid.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
8:27 p.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not
dvd-r (wont recognize
those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's.
1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year
right? What is the make and model number?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
8:59 p.m.
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Jim Leonard wrote:
Teo Zenios wrote:
I have (had) a cheapie Apex from about that time that would play MP3s. It
was that infamous player that had the "you should not be here" back door
that allowed you to change the player's region.
--
David Griffith
dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail?
My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and
not dvd-r (wont recognize
those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's.
1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year
right? What is the make and model number?
9:26 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Griffith" <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence
I have (had) a cheapie Apex from about that time that would play MP3s. It
was that infamous player that had the "you should not be here" back door
that allowed you to change the player's region.
--
David Griffith
Mine is region free as well after doing a quick search on google years ago.
On Tue, 6 Feb 2007, Jim Leonard wrote:
> Teo Zenios wrote:
> > My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont
recognize
those). It also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's.
1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year
right? What is the make and model number? 
10:24 p.m.
On 2/6/07, David Griffith <dgriffi at cs.csubak.edu> wrote:
I have (had) a cheapie Apex from about that time that
would play MP3s. It
was that infamous player that had the "you should not be here" back door
that allowed you to change the player's region.
I have one of those (Apex AD-600A). It's awesome. It's still my
primary player, 6-7 years later, and has made two round-trips with me
to the Pole. One reason I keep it going is that when the transport
(DVD-ROM mechanism) dies, I have a chance of replacing it - it's an
ordinary IDE drive inside, just with a tray extension instead of a
standard PC faceplate.
It does play MP3s, but I don't think it knows about variable bit-rate
files, and it's pretty stupid when interpreting the ISO-9660
filesystem - I am pretty sure that everything has to be in the root
dir, and it only displays filenames as 8.3, _and_ it does char
substitution on the menu so that spaces become "X"s, etc. Kinda hard
to navigate, but you can just drop a CD-R (not DVD-R) full of MP3
files into it and press 'play'.
Later Apex players have better filesystem navigators and can even play
"naked" video files (just a plain MPG file in a plain filesystem, not
run through an authoring tool).
But this is drifting off-topic...
-ethan
10:37 p.m.
It does play MP3s, but I don't think it knows
about variable bit-rate
files, and it's pretty stupid when interpreting the ISO-9660
filesystem - I am pretty sure that everything has to be in the root
dir, and it only displays filenames as 8.3, _and_ it does char
substitution on the menu so that spaces become "X"s, etc. Kinda hard
to navigate, but you can just drop a CD-R (not DVD-R) full of MP3
files into it and press 'play'.
Later Apex players have better filesystem navigators and can even play
"naked" video files (just a plain MPG file in a plain filesystem, not
run through an authoring tool).
The "OFFA" firmware allowed it to play vbr MP3, naked video files et al.
I'd tell you to grab it imediately :o)
Ah, I also have one of these :o)
Abs
|AS
9:03 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Leonard" <trixter at oldskool.org>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Tuesday, February 06, 2007 11:27 PM
Subject: Re: Preservation of correspondence
Genica GN-800
http://www.genica.com/Consumer%20Electronics/KaluaMP3-DVD.htm
Maybe it was in 2000
Teo Zenios wrote:
> My cheapo 1999 vintage dvd player likes dvd+r and not dvd-r (wont
recognize
those). It
also likes to play cdrs full of mp3's.
1999? And it plays MP3 data CDRs? Are you sure you have the year
right? What is the make and model number?
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
7 Feb
7 Feb
9:56 a.m.
Teo Zenios wrote:
Genica GN-800
http://www.genica.com/Consumer%20Electronics/KaluaMP3-DVD.htm
Maybe it was in 2000
Late 2000, actually (December).
Thanks for clarifying. I was about to call "Shenanigans!" because MP3
support back then was nearly nonexistent. Further research shows that
yes, your player can play MP3s, but support for VBR is iffy.
--
Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org) http://www.oldskool.org/
Help our electronic games project: http://www.mobygames.com/
Or check out some trippy MindCandy at http://www.mindcandydvd.com/
A child borne of the home computer wars: http://trixter.wordpress.com/
7:39 a.m.
Jim Leonard wrote:
And yet, DVD-R has traditionally been recognized as
more compatible
with set-top devices. So go figure :-)
I think the gist of it was that, given the choice, you should go
for DVD+R since it is more likely to be readable when things have
degraded slightly. As I say, without knowing more of the details
I cannot really comment.
As for device compatibility, my experience is that DVD-R works
everywhere and DVD+R works in most things. Five to ten years ago you
had to worry about making sure that the media was compatible with your
drive. These days you would have to work at it to find a drive that
would not read/write pretty much all the media.
Antonio
9:21 a.m.
?'m finishing a job that I found interesting in that it illustrates a
problem with media preservation that hadn't occurred to me.
We were sent about 100 8" diskettes for conversion which I didn't
think was unusual at all until I started to read the material from
them. These are oral history transcriptions--with "shall remain
sealed for 15 (up to 20; the period varies) years before publication"
notices on them.
I checked with the sender and yes, indeed, these were created
(transcribed from audio cassette tape) and stored in sealed boxes for
the entire time.
Fortunately, there was only one unrecoverable error in the entire lot-
-and it was in an unallocated area. But I thought it was
interesting in that it points up the issue that it's sometimes *not*
possible to recopy things to newer media every few years, regardless
of one's desire to preserve the content.
Cheers,
Chuck
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aek＠bitsavers.org -
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arcarlini＠iee.org -
bfranchuk＠jetnet.ab.ca -
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