1 Oct
1 Oct
7:42 a.m.
On 10/1/2016 9:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
I don't get it. Would someone explain to me how a couple of old, dirty,
untested, belt driven floppy drives are worth this kind of money? And
why??
There's actual bidding going on. That's not just an asking price.
- J.
7:52 a.m.
Nice, I do have several.
Am 01.10.2016 um 16:42 schrieb "js at
cimmeri.com" <js at cimmeri.com>:
On 10/1/2016 9:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/291894250804
I don't get it. Would someone explain to me how a couple of old, dirty, untested,
belt driven floppy drives are worth this kind of money? And why??
There's actual bidding going on. That's not just an asking price.
- J. 
7:54 a.m.
On 01/10/2016 15:42, "js at cimmeri.com" <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 10/1/2016 9:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
I don't get it. Would someone explain to me how a couple of old, dirty,
untested, belt driven floppy drives are worth this kind of money? And
why??
There's actual bidding going on. That's not just an asking price.
Because they're actual Twiggy drives from a Lisa 1. A lot of them were
chucked during the Lisa 2 upgrades offered by Apple because the Twiggys were
slow and unreliable, but it's a great example of how not to design a floppy
drive. If I had deep pockets I'd be bidding too.
--
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?
8:12 a.m.
On 10/1/2016 9:54 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
On 01/10/2016 15:42, "js at
cimmeri.com"<js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
Ok, you just gave a bunch of reasons why they're even more worthless
than I originally thought, and why people bidding on them have clearly
lost their marbles. :)
- J.
On 10/1/2016 9:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
I
don't get it. Would someone explain to me how a couple of old, dirty,
untested, belt driven floppy drives are worth this kind of money? And
why??
There's actual bidding going on. That's not just an asking price.
Because
they're actual Twiggy drives from a Lisa 1. A lot of them were
chucked during the Lisa 2 upgrades offered by Apple because the Twiggys were
slow and unreliable, but it's a great example of how not to design a floppy
drive. If I had deep pockets I'd be bidding too. 
8:21 a.m.
Going price nowadays for a Lisa with Twiggys is pushing $20K
There are a lot of people that have all of the parts except the drives, including the
front bezel.
On 10/1/16 8:12 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Ok, you just gave a bunch of reasons why they're
even more worthless than I originally thought, and why people bidding
on them have clearly lost their marbles. :)
- J.
8:25 a.m.
that's why someone thinks they can get $5k just for the bezel
www.ebay.com/itm/222262204758
On 10/1/16 8:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
Going price nowadays for a Lisa with Twiggys is
pushing $20K
8:27 a.m.
On 10/1/16 8:12 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Ohhhh, I see. Now that makes sense -- Thanks, Al. But, like
airplanes and boats, this looks like only a rich person's game.
- J.
Ok, you just
gave a bunch of reasons why they're even more worthless than I originally thought, and
why people bidding
on them have clearly lost their marbles. :)
- J.
On 10/1/2016 10:21 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
Going price nowadays for a Lisa with Twiggys is pushing $20K
There are a lot of people that have all of the parts except the drives, including the
front bezel. 
11:12 a.m.
On 10/01/2016 08:27 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Ohhhh, I see. Now that makes sense -- Thanks, Al.
But, like
airplanes and boats, this looks like only a rich person's game.
Sigh. There was a time when I was in this old computer stuff to help
out people who were trying to do something or retrieve otherwise lost
information.
The game has changed, obviously. We are in an era now when folks with
too much money and spare time and narcissism want to buy and sell and
display toys rather than play with them.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket.
--Chuck
12:56 p.m.
On 01/10/16 19:12, Chuck Guzis wrote:
We are in an era now when folks with too much money
and spare time and
narcissism want to buy and sell and display toys rather than play with
them.
I suspect that we've always been in that era, it's just that some of
them now look at old computers as "display toys".
I expect that the vast majority of C64 systems that change hands end up
with someone who wants to relive his or her youth.
Antonio
--
Antonio Carlini
arcarlini at iee.org
1:21 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cclist at sydex.com
Sent: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 11:12:02 -0700
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/01/2016 08:27 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Yeh. Once we started seeing Classical Computers that could be considered
'investment grade', prices just got ridiculous for everything. Everyone
with an old computer in their closet started seeing dollar-signs.
And before I get castigated by those whose position is: "Well, if you cant stand the
heat...." I'll remind everyone that its (former) affordability
was part of the enjoyment factor of our hobby.
N0body
Ohhhh, I see. Now that makes sense -- Thanks,
Al. But, like
airplanes and boats, this looks like only a rich person's game.
Sigh. There was a time when I was in this old computer stuff to help
out people who were trying to do something or retrieve otherwise lost
information.
The game has changed, obviously. We are in an era now when folks with
too much money and spare time and narcissism want to buy and sell and
display toys rather than play with them.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket.
--Chuck
1:57 p.m.
On 10/1/2016 3:21 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
From where I sit, the big prices seem
mostly centered around Apple 1's and
this Twiggy Lisa. Have any other
computers have gone astronomical like these?
- J.
-----Original
Message-----
From: cclist at sydex.com
Sent: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 11:12:02 -0700
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/01/2016 08:27 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Yeh. Once we started seeing Classical Computers that could be considered
'investment grade', prices just got ridiculous for everything. Everyone
with an old computer in their closet started seeing dollar-signs. But, like airplanes and boats, this looks like
only a rich person's game.
...
The game has changed, obviously. We are in an era now when folks with too much money and
spare time and narcissism want to buy and sell and display toys rather than play with
them.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket.
--Chuck 
2:13 p.m.
On Sat, Oct 1, 2016 at 1:57 PM, js at cimmeri.com <js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 10/1/2016 3:21 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
There are a couple of sellers in particular who routinely ask insane
prices, which I think distorts the economy: 'If that guy can ask a
gazillion dollars/pounds/euro for X, so can I." I think few people
actually look at *completed* sales, i.e. what people really paid for
something.
On one hand, it's a shame stuff ends up on ePay where it becomes the target
of 'feeding frenzy' behaviors - but it's not going to the scrappers, which
is good.
--
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School <http://ischool.uw.edu>
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens
Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal <http://tribunalvoices.org>
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab <http://vsdesign.org>
University of Washington
There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
-----Original Message-----
From where I sit, the big prices seem mostly centered around Apple 1's and
this Twiggy Lisa. Have any other computers have gone astronomical like
these?
- J.
From: cclist at sydex.com
Sent: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 11:12:02 -0700
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/01/2016 08:27 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
But, like airplanes and boats, this looks like only a rich person's game.
...
The game has changed, obviously. We are in an era now when folks with
too much money and spare time and narcissism want to buy and sell and
display toys rather than play with them.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket.
--Chuck
Yeh. Once we started seeing Classical Computers that could be considered
'investment grade', prices just got ridiculous for everything. Everyone
with an old computer in their closet started seeing dollar-signs.
3 Oct
3 Oct
4:12 a.m.
There are a couple of sellers in particular who
routinely ask insane
prices, which I think distorts the economy: 'If that guy can ask a
gazillion dollars/pounds/euro for X, so can I." I think few people
actually look at *completed* sales, i.e. what people really paid for
something.
That's what is happening on our local auction site (mercado livre).
People raises prices on equipment, and the outsider comes and says "if he is
selling for 1000, I'll sell mine for 1100 and see what happens" and the
price goes to actual unpayable levels.
$500 into a loose Atari 400? NO WAY.
1 Oct
1 Oct
2:29 p.m.
On Oct 1, 2016, at 1:57 PM, "js at cimmeri.com" <js at cimmeri.com>
wrote:
From where I sit, the big prices seem mostly centered
around Apple 1's and this Twiggy Lisa. Have any other computers have gone
astronomical like these?
Yes, some old workstation and mini hardware. Old Macs have also seen a significant rise in
prices over the past 10 years.
-- Chris
2:41 p.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: js at cimmeri.com
Sent: Sat, 01 Oct 2016 15:57:45 -0500
To: general at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/1/2016 3:21 PM, N0body H0me wrote:
From where I sit, the big prices seem
mostly centered around Apple 1's and
this Twiggy Lisa. Have any other
computers have gone astronomical like these?
- J.
Maybe not astronomical, but most of the systems I'm interested in, anyways,
are almost always outside my price range. A good example: I bought my
first ss-50 machine for $50. That's $116 in today's money. Not lunch
money, but not out of reach. Try to buy an SS-50 today (like say, an
SwTPc 6800 or similar). You can't SMELL one for under $600-800, and
more likely you're going to have to pony up a grand or more.
I tried to buy a PDP-11/23 on Craigslist. "Make offer" the ad said.
I made an offer. No response. No "no thank you" or "I was really hoping
to get $________". Nothing. Make another offer, still nothing. A week
goes by, and I'm looking at e-pay. The EXACT SAME machine is now listed.
Opening bid was $100. I didn't bid; there are too many people playing
games like this....
So, it's not 'astronomical' just out of reach. If I didn't still have
a bunch of stuff I acquired when it was still all reasonably priced, I likely wouldn't
bother.....
N0body
-----Original Message-----
From: cclist at sydex.com
Sent: Sat, 1 Oct 2016 11:12:02 -0700
To: cctalk at classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/01/2016 08:27 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Yeh. Once we started seeing Classical Computers that could be considered
'investment grade', prices just got ridiculous for everything. Everyone
with an old computer in their closet started seeing dollar-signs. But, like airplanes and boats, this looks like
only a rich person's
game.
...
The game has changed, obviously. We are in an era now when folks with
too much money and spare time and narcissism want to buy and sell and
display toys rather than play with them.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket.
--Chuck 
4:06 p.m.
> Looks like it's time to get out of this
racket.
On Sat, 1 Oct 2016, tony duell wrote:
Want to take me with you?
I'd ask if there's room, but I'm afraid that I'm not worthy. Besides, I
still have too much crap that I'd want to bring along.
Yes, it is easy to remember times when IBM 5150, '57 Chevy, Altair,
Isetta, functioning TTYs, could be had for the effort of carrying them
home.
Well before our time, Van Gogh paintings could be had for a bottle of
wine.
Yes, things that we have been interested in, that once had negligible
cost have acquired value and unimaginable prices.
Even my house is now valued at 30 times what I paid.
If John Titor ever answers my standing offer, one of the first things that
I should do in the 1960s is get a warehouse.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
11:49 p.m.
On Sat, Oct 01, 2016 at 04:06:49PM -0700, Fred Cisin wrote:
But you guys must realize how this "get out of" is going to end? In a
rather small room filled up to the roof with those who followed you
because "please" and "me too" and "I will clean your
screwdriver".
[...]
> Looks like
it's time to get out of this racket.
On Sat, 1 Oct 2016, tony duell wrote:
Want to take me with you?
I'd ask if there's room, but I'm afraid that I'm not worthy.
Besides, I still have too much crap that I'd want to bring along. If John Titor ever answers my standing offer, one of
the first
things that I should do in the 1960s is get a warehouse.
If you meet the guy (or he meets you, which ever comes first) please
ask if this would have been not too much trouble for him to make a
compressed dump of the list archives from before the server went
soft. Ideally, tar + compressed/gzipped, with 2-5% Solomon-Reed
checksum, just in case. And of course, drop it in _our_ time somewhere
on the net (what do I care if he takes the tape home - I might be
fried to the bone by then). I spit in the mirror from time to time
because I have not made it myself when it was easy and did not
required bending of light and similar magic.
BTW, the "ching" aspect does not have much spell for me. Maybe because
I do not have a "kollekshion". Or maybe because I am focused on
rethinking some not-so-old ideas - it seems to be more fun than
learning Javascript and node and whatever is cool this month.
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
8:02 a.m.
On Sun, Oct 02, 2016 at 06:35:15AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote:
On 10/1/16 11:49 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
The sound of uniform metal pieces pouncing against uniform metal
pieces, imagined in the head of a beholder while Sally Bowles
(a.k.a. Liza Minnelli) twists her bunnies. Yeah I receive the message.
So is it possible that guys paying extravagant sums for S360 and
Cray-1 believe they will find a sleeping beauty in one of them metal
boxes, it they buy enough of them?
--
Regards,
Tomasz Rola
--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com **
BTW, the "ching" aspect does not have
much spell for me.
The sound of a mechanical cash register, like at the start of
Pink Floyd's "Money"
9:20 a.m.
On 10/02/2016 06:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 10/1/16 11:49 PM, Tomasz Rola wrote:
Or the closing strains of Stan Freberg's "Green Christmas":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5IXlfJSEi4
About 6:40 into the clip.
--Chuck
BTW, the "ching" aspect does not have
much spell for me.
The sound of a mechanical cash register, like at the start of Pink
Floyd's "Money" 
3 Oct
3 Oct
5:44 a.m.
On 10/01/2016 06:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
Will old computers hold value, though? I expect that nostalgia plays a big
part, and the majority of buyers with deep pockets today do so because they
remember using the machines in their younger years. At some point, I expect
that won't be the case - the people with the money couldn't tell an Apple
> Looks
like it's time to get out of this racket.
On Sat, 1 Oct 2016, tony duell
wrote:
Want to take me with you?
I'd ask if there's room, but I'm afraid that I'm not worthy. Besides, I
still have too much crap that I'd want to bring along.
Yes, it is easy to remember times when IBM 5150, '57 Chevy, Altair, Isetta,
functioning TTYs, could be had for the effort of carrying them home. from an IBM.
Perhaps what it comes down to is how much the working state of the machine
matters. If that plays a big part... well, I expect it will be a lot harder
to restore a vintage computer to original state compared to say a painting
or a piece of furniture. At that point, well it's just a lump of metal and
plastic and silicon.
I don't know, I wonder if in 5-10 years the bottom might not drop out of
the market, except for a few niche items (Apple 1's, Altairs and the like).
If John Titor ever answers my standing offer, one of
the first things that
I should do in the 1960s is get a warehouse.
... and the money for the taxes, upkeep, security etc. I expect that
storing a significant amount of stuff - particularly in conditions
favorable to the contents - costs a significant amount of money, even if
you have the building.
cheers
Jules
9:24 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules
Richardson
Sent: Monday, October 3, 2016 5:45 AM
To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic
Posts <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/01/2016 06:06 PM, Fred Cisin wrote:
home.
Will old computers hold value, though? I expect that nostalgia plays a big
part, and the majority of buyers with deep pockets today do so because they
remember using the machines in their younger years. At some point, I expect
that won't be the case - the people with the money couldn't tell an Apple
> Looks
like it's time to get out of this racket.
On Sat, 1 Oct 2016, tony duell
wrote:
Want to take me with you?
I'd ask if there's room, but I'm afraid that I'm not worthy. Besides,
I still have too much crap that I'd want to bring along.
Yes, it is easy to remember times when IBM 5150, '57 Chevy, Altair,
Isetta, functioning TTYs, could be had for the effort of carrying them from an IBM.
Perhaps what it comes down to is how much the working state of the machine
matters. If that plays a big part... well, I expect it will be a lot harder
to restore a vintage computer to original state compared to say a painting
or a piece of furniture. At that point, well it's just a lump of metal and
plastic and silicon.
I don't know, I wonder if in 5-10 years the bottom might not drop out of the
market, except for a few niche items (Apple 1's, Altairs and the like).
If John Titor ever answers my standing offer, one of
the first things
that I should do in the 1960s is get a warehouse.
... and the money for the taxes, upkeep, security etc. I expect that
storing a significant amount of stuff - particularly in conditions favorable
to the contents - costs a significant amount of money, even if you have the
building.
cheers
Jules
I've wondered this precise thing.
I'm 41 this year, and I am definitely part of the nostalgia wave, although
my experiences began in the early 80s with Commodore, IBM, etc. I never had
experience with SWTPC, Digital Group or any of the earlier pioneers. My
interest in them stemmed from learning more and more about Commodore
machines I never knew existed and then branching out into whole companies I
never knew about. Plus I have a keen interest in history generally. Will a
20-something with no original experience of vintage machines at all be as
interested? I'm on the fence -- there is still great interest in 8 bit
gaming, for example - but this need is filled by emulation. And the other
problem millennials and on down have is that space is at a premium. With
my own stuff, on the rare occasion I've gone to sell something I purchased,
say, 5 years ago (in a dogfight on ebay), I'm not getting what I paid now.
I think we're the bubble deflating with other things like vintage cars.
Lots of young people don't even have a regular day to day car let alone an
interest in spending thousands on something vintage. I'm seeing lots of
great cars for sale that used to command huge dollars coming back to earth.
Maybe that is the fate of our hobby also.
1 Oct
1 Oct
1:47 p.m.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chuck Guzis" <cclist at sydex.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" <cctalk at
classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, October 01, 2016 2:12 PM
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/01/2016 08:27 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
=====================
Please don't, Chuck!
You're one of the most prolific sources of information and helpful advice in this
hobby, across almost all platforms, and you would be sorely missed indeed.
Obviously I don't have anything close to what you have to contribute, but my reasons
for spending time on these lists & forums are more or less the same (as well as the
hope of regaining some space in my house ;-).
For various reasons I've also from time to time reflected on why I waste so much time
on what is just old junk to most people; someone here (Al? Fred?) once asked rhetorically
how much money or lost income we spend just storing this crap, and that in particular hit
home.
I did get rid of a fair bit of stuff after the unpleasantness on the Vintage Forum and
have cut back a lot on the time I spend on the various lists, but when I consider
'getting out of the racket' completely the friends I've made and the
occasional opportunity to actually help someone with a hard-to-find item or even a piece
of advice have kept me 'in it' after all.
Please don't go!
m
Ohhhh, I see. Now that makes sense -- Thanks,
Al. But, like
airplanes and boats, this looks like only a rich person's game.
Sigh. There was a time when I was in this old computer stuff to help
out people who were trying to do something or retrieve otherwise lost
information.
The game has changed, obviously. We are in an era now when folks with
too much money and spare time and narcissism want to buy and sell and
display toys rather than play with them.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket.
--Chuck
5:26 p.m.
On 10/01/2016 01:47 PM, Mike Stein wrote:
You're one of the most prolific sources of
information and helpful
advice in this hobby, across almost all platforms, and you would be
sorely missed indeed.
Obviously I don't have anything close to what you have to contribute,
but my reasons for spending time on these lists & forums are more or
less the same (as well as the hope of regaining some space in my
house ;-).
That's very kind of you, Mike, but we all are getting older--some of us
more than others. I've resisted becoming too involved in the new
culture--I still don't own a cellphone of any stripe, but said culture
still eats time that's probably now better spent with my lovely and
tolerant wife, my dogs, my music and my chainsaws.
I've already committed to my better half that I'll be out of this by
2020 and I don't intend to disappoint her.
--Chuck
3 Oct
3 Oct
4:07 a.m.
For various reasons I've also from time to time
reflected on why I waste so
much time on what is just old junk to most people; someone here (Al? Fred?)
once >asked rhetorically how much money or lost income we spend just
storing this crap, and that in particular hit home.
But how much nice friends did we got internationally, so much nice
talks, discussions, fights and overall great moments we got with that?
Some people spends this kind of money in booze, drugs and cigars. We're
in an advantage :D
2 Oct
2 Oct
11:18 p.m.
On Sat, Oct 01, 2016 at 11:12:02AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/01/2016 08:27 AM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
Nooo, I still need you guys! And I'm not rich!
Also, if you start fixing stuff for the big boys you can earn the big
cash I suppose?
/P
Ohhhh, I see. Now that makes sense -- Thanks,
Al. But, like
airplanes and boats, this looks like only a rich person's game.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket. 
3 Oct
3 Oct
3:50 a.m.
On Sat, Oct 01, 2016 at 11:12:02AM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote:
[...]
The game has changed, obviously. We are in an era now
when folks with too
much money and spare time and narcissism want to buy and sell and display
toys rather than play with them.
It's always been like that, just that the current fashionable thing to collect
happens to be the same things you're interested in.
I'd quite like an Amiga 3000, but I'm not prepared to cough up the EUR800 or so
being asked on eBay. Most of the vendors seem to think it's a Dutch auction and
just list high and reduce by a few tens of euros at most when it doesn't shift,
but some of the daft buggers even put the price *up* when it doesn't sell.
Looks like it's time to get out of this racket.
Or you can start playing with a different type of machine and/or look in a
different country.
Eight bit games consoles are ridiculously cheap in the Netherlands. (Well, the
Dutch are all suckers for a bargain.) There's a mail-order vendor of machines
out Edam way, and a small shop next to Amsterdam Centraal station which is
packed to the rafters with cartridges, CDs, etc.
7:59 a.m.
On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 6:50 AM, Peter Corlett <abuse at cabal.org.uk> wrote:
I'd quite like an Amiga 3000, but I'm not
prepared to cough up the EUR800 or so
being asked on eBay.
Wow... I had an A3000 at VCFmw 2015 for sale at my table, plugged in
and operational (not dead from Varta leakage) and was asking $375 with
a GG2 Bus+ card included. Two interested parties, one was shopping
for a friend who decided not to go ahead with the sale, the other
tried to talk me down to $250. I did not sell the machine.
I'm not surprised that someone would _ask_ EUR800, but are they *getting* it?
-ethan
8:28 a.m.
Wow... I had an A3000 at VCFmw 2015 for sale at my
table, plugged in
and operational (not dead from Varta leakage) and was asking $375 with
a GG2 Bus+ card included. Two interested parties, one was shopping for
a friend who decided not to go ahead with the sale, the other tried to
talk me down to $250. I did not sell the machine.
I'm not surprised that someone would _ask_ EUR800, but are they
*getting* it?
And just like that the price of the A3000 goes up. :) Although, to be fair though it seems
that things do sell for more overseas. I've always chucked it up to a lack of supply
but that really would not explain the Amiga. I would think they would be more plentiful in
Europe...
-Ali
9 Oct
9 Oct
2:38 a.m.
On Mon, Oct 03, 2016 at 08:28:50AM -0700, Ali wrote:
[Amiga 3000s]
> I'm not surprised that someone would _ask_
EUR800, but are they *getting*
> it?
They relisted it at EUR720 and now again for EUR695, so I assume that they
would accept at EUR650 offer. I had made a EUR500 offer last time, maybe I'll
offer EUR450 this time to make a point.
It's not like I don't already have several other Amigas to be getting on with
until realisation dawns on this seller.
And just like that the price of the A3000 goes up. :)
Although, to be fair
though it seems that things do sell for more overseas. I've always chucked it
up to a lack of supply but that really would not explain the Amiga. I would
think they would be more plentiful in Europe...
The A3000 was extremely rare in the UK as most Amigas were bought for gaming so
it was mainly A500s and A1200s. I found sales figures for Germany where this
eBay seller is, and the A3000 was by far the least popular machine there with
just 8,300 sales, versus 1.1M for the A500 and 100k for the A1200.
2 Oct
2 Oct
10:15 a.m.
Js wrote...
--------------
Ok, you just gave a bunch of reasons why they're even more worthless than I
originally thought, and why people bidding on them have clearly lost their
marbles. :)
--------
I think it's called supply and demand :) Both ebb and flow over time, so
from time to time the stars align and prices reflect
that. Some machines
that used to be worth a lot I've seen drop radically in
price. Often the
price gets back up. I remember almost a decade ago HP 200LX devices
consistently going for $300. Nowadays you're lucky to get $100, if it sells
at all. I also remember HP 2100A/S boxes going for about $200, and lately
it's more like $1500-$2000. I don't understand getting worried about the
prices, they will always change.
If the prices are such a concern, not sure why I haven't gotten a single
query about (likely) free gear in NH. Ya can't give stuff away :P
The trick is - before you list a machine on ebay, get a good technical
conversation started here on the list about them. Then post your ebay ad for
one ;)
I remember getting my first real system - a PDP-8E with TU56, PC04, and
TU10. Not only did a fellow collector give it to me for free, he drove
halfway to ensure it got a good home. I have repeated that type of gift
often and recently. That's not to say that one or two of my machines won't
end up on ebay some day - but the vast majority will be given/traded away to
fellow collectors. Besides, I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
J
12:32 p.m.
On 10/02/2016 12:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 10/2/16 10:15 AM, Jay West wrote:
It is NOT a joke, it really happens. The old gear outlasts
the owners, and people use it for a while, upgrade, move to
a retirement home or whatever, and it goes to someone else.
Then, the cycle repeats.
Jon
I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
Thats been a joke at hamfests for decades :-)
1:11 p.m.
On 10/2/2016 12:32 PM, Jon Elson wrote:
On 10/02/2016 12:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
This is the way it works with real estate. Same dirt, different time,
far larger prices.
--
Note change in email address. Please use reply-to
address. TWC is changing their email and this may
change again reply to is jwsmail at jwsss.com
On 10/2/16 10:15 AM, Jay West wrote:
It is NOT a joke, it really happens. The old gear outlasts the
owners, and people use it for a while, upgrade, move to a retirement
home or whatever, and it goes to someone else. Then, the cycle repeats.
Jon
I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
Thats been a joke at hamfests for decades :-)
1:26 p.m.
> On 10/2/16 10:15 AM, Jay West wrote:
>> I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
>> found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
>> sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
> Thats been a joke at hamfests for decades :-)
On Sun, 2 Oct 2016, Jon Elson
wrote:
It is NOT a joke, it really happens. The old gear
outlasts the owners, and
people use it for a while, upgrade, move to a retirement home or whatever,
and it goes to someone else. Then, the cycle repeats.
But imperfectly.
There is some "new" material coming in out of cluttered closets, or even
newly manufactured items, sufficiently arcane to be worthwhile (such as
OQO, Kryoflux, etc.)
And, whenever one of us dies, things are lost. Let us hope that MOST of
the good stuff remains around, but realistically, it doesn't always
happen. How much of Don Maslin's collection of knowledge and information
was recovered?
Hence, stagnation is reduced, but some wondrous stuff gets lost forever.
--
Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com
1:29 p.m.
There are also the type of people who get into a hobby and buy all kinds of
gear then get bored and ditch it a few years later.
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Elson
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2016 3:32 PM
To: General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/02/2016 12:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 10/2/16 10:15 AM, Jay West wrote:
It is NOT a joke, it really happens. The old gear outlasts
the owners, and people use it for a while, upgrade, move to
a retirement home or whatever, and it goes to someone else.
Then, the cycle repeats.
Jon
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
Thats been a joke at hamfests for decades :-)
1:37 p.m.
On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 4:29 PM, TeoZ <teoz at neo.rr.com> wrote:
There are also the type of people who get into a hobby
and buy all kinds
of gear then get bored and ditch it a few years later.
-----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson
Sent: Sunday, October 02, 2016 3:32 PM
To: General at classiccmp.org ; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: ka... ching!
On 10/02/2016 12:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
I have noticed a lot of "new" items coming into availability. People have
been horders of computers since companies first started letting employees
to take them home after depreciation. Plenty is still out there.
I still want to got to Cuba to find a Univac there. I have this feeling
that some thought-lost vintage machines are to be found there.
b
On 10/2/16 10:15 AM, Jay West wrote:
the owners, and people
use it for a while, upgrade, move to
a retirement home or whatever, and it goes to someone else.
Then, the cycle repeats.
Jon
I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
Thats been a joke at hamfests for decades :-)
It is NOT a joke, it really happens. The old gear outlasts
3 Oct
3 Oct
4:22 a.m.
There are also the type of people who get into a hobby
and buy all kinds
of gear then get bored and ditch it a few years later.
Or people like me, who gathers lots and lots of trash, refurbish it,
sell as complete vintage computers, and "adjust" the collection to things
that are COMPLETELY RELEVANT to my personal feelings:
- Anything Atari related (and I FINALLY GOT MY ATARI 800!!!
WOOHOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
- Sinclair (zx81, spectrum, QL)
- Apple (mainly //e)
- one or two macintoshes
- MSX (my Turbo-R and 3 or 4 nice machines)
2 Oct
2 Oct
1:12 p.m.
On 10/2/16 10:15 AM, Jay West wrote:
> I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
> found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
> sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
On Sun, 2 Oct 2016, Al
Kossow wrote:
Thats been a joke at hamfests for decades :-)
No new jokes are ever created. We just keep trading ownership of them
amonst ourselves, sometimes with the same joke coming back years later.
Dave Thompson (Micro Cornucopia) told me, "The secret to great humor is in
the selection of WHOSE material to steal." I wonder who he got THAT
from.
At John Craig's Computer Swap America, public entry was delayed for vendor
setup. Once we had our stuff on the tables, we would scurry around buying
each other's stuff. One fellow said, "Why bother with the public?
Simply, when the music stops, go home with whatever is on the table that
you are closest to."
3:25 p.m.
AK wrote...
-------
Thats been a joke at hamfests for decades :-)
-------
I honestly didn't know that. I hadn't been making a point of going to
hamfests in the past decade, as I wasn't a ham and most classic gear wasn't
really showing up at them anymore.
But recently... KE0FJW, so I'll have to start going to hamfests again. At
least I'll have the humor right ;)
J
3 Oct
3 Oct
4:18 a.m.
I have a new
theory. No new machines are ever
found, we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves,
sometimes with the same machine coming back years later!
Thats been a joke at
hamfests for decades :-) 
2 Oct
2 Oct
11:24 a.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: 02 October 2016 18:15
To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Subject: RE: ka... ching!
Js wrote...
--------------
Ok, you just gave a bunch of reasons why they're even more worthless than
I
originally thought, and why people bidding on them
have clearly lost their
marbles. :)
--------
I think it's called supply and demand :) Both ebb and flow over time, so
from
time to time the stars align and prices reflect that.
Some machines that
used
to be worth a lot I've seen drop radically in
price. Often the price gets
back
up. I remember almost a decade ago HP 200LX devices
consistently going for
$300. Nowadays you're lucky to get $100, if it sells at all. I also
remember
HP
2100A/S boxes going for about $200, and lately
it's more like $1500-$2000.
I
don't understand getting worried about the prices,
they will always
change.
If the prices are such a concern, not sure why I haven't gotten a single
query
about (likely) free gear in NH. Ya can't give
stuff away :P
The trick is - before you list a machine on ebay, get a good technical
conversation started here on the list about them. Then post your ebay ad
for
one ;)
I remember getting my first real system - a PDP-8E with TU56, PC04, and
TU10. Not only did a fellow collector give it to me for free, he drove
halfway
to ensure it got a good home. I have repeated that
type of gift often and
recently. That's not to say that one or two of my machines won't end up on
ebay some day - but the vast majority will be given/traded away to fellow
collectors.
I have tried to follow much the same principle. Most of the stuff I have has
been given to me for free, and if I pass it on I make a point of giving it
away for free too. I don't apply the same rule if I had to buy the gear, but
really there has not been too much of that. If I made a significant effort
to get a machine (travel or shipping wise) which I don't particularly want
to keep but just want to be sure is not scrapped, then I may ask for a
contribution towards those costs.
Besides, I have a new theory. No new machines are ever
found,
we all just keep trading ownership of them amongst ourselves, sometimes
with the same machine coming back years later!
J
1 Oct
1 Oct
8:18 a.m.
This is the same seller that had NOS Twiggy harnesses a month or two ago.
I was wondering if any drives were going to show up.
They appear to be pretty late serial numbers too (5xxx)
Fortunately, I got all of the museum's Twiggy media read when I
restored one before we put it on exhibit.
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102747604
Sad they didn't take a picture of it for the catalog.
The drives are really nasty to keep running. Good luck finding belts (fiber
required, like SA800s). The read channel circuitry is baroque. The felt pads
like to tear or fall off at inopportune times. Fixing the pad on the rear
head is a nightmare (complete disassembly).
I ended up making special cleaning disks
cutting a slot in the other side.
and.. they have a weird track spacing. Someone was going to try to modify a
Kodak drive to read them. I even formatted and sent them some media, putting
it into normal sleeves, but I don't think they got very far.
On 10/1/16 7:54 AM, Adrian Graham wrote:
On 01/10/2016 15:42, "js at cimmeri.com"
<js at cimmeri.com> wrote:
On 10/1/2016 9:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
I don't get it. Would someone explain to me how a couple of old, dirty,
untested, belt driven floppy drives are worth this kind of money? And
why??
There's actual bidding going on. That's not just an asking price.
Because they're actual Twiggy drives from a Lisa 1. A lot of them were
chucked during the Lisa 2 upgrades offered by Apple because the Twiggys were
slow and unreliable, but it's a great example of how not to design a floppy
drive. If I had deep pockets I'd be bidding too.
7 Oct
7 Oct
3:12 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
ouch!
this is about 2x what I thought they would go for
On 10/1/16 7:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
3:21 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On 10/07/2016 03:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
ouch!
this is about 2x what I thought they would go for
On 10/1/16 7:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/291894250804
That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.
--Chuck
3:38 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
I don't think a flipper would have paid that much.
Complete machines have sold for just over 15K within recent memory.
A deep pockets collector must have a machine with all the right
serial numbers that was just missing drives.
sigh.. getting like the high-end car collecting market, where people
pay $1K for an NOS Ford part for their Cobra you could get at
a dealer for $10 in the 60's.
On 10/7/16 3:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/07/2016 03:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
ouch!
this is about 2x what I thought they would go for
On 10/1/16 7:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/291894250804
That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.
--Chuck
3:59 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
Remember that there are folks out there with millions or more (often made in a
computer-related field), for whom $20,000 is the same as $20.00 for most of us...
m
----- Original Message -----
From: "Al Kossow" <aek at bitsavers.org>
To: <cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Friday, October 07, 2016 6:38 PM
Subject: Re: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
I don't think a flipper would have paid that much.
Complete machines have sold for just over 15K within recent memory.
A deep pockets collector must have a machine with all the right
serial numbers that was just missing drives.
sigh.. getting like the high-end car collecting market, where people
pay $1K for an NOS Ford part for their Cobra you could get at
a dealer for $10 in the 60's.
On 10/7/16 3:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/07/2016 03:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
ouch!
this is about 2x what I thought they would go for
On 10/1/16 7:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/291894250804
That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.
--Chuck
5:12 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On Fri, 7 Oct 2016, Mike Stein wrote:
Remember that there are folks out there with millions
or more (often
made in a computer-related field), for whom $20,000 is the same as
$20.00 for most of us...
Decades ago, I didn't buy some at $30 each, waiting for the price to come
down.
5:07 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On Fri, 7 Oct 2016, Al Kossow wrote:
sigh.. getting like the high-end car collecting
market, where people
pay $1K for an NOS Ford part for their Cobra you could get at
a dealer for $10 in the 60's.
But, how do I get to the 60's?
John Titor never answered my open offer.
I accept that their values are different than mine, . . .
I don't mind aftermarket, remakes, or copies, if the quality is adequate.
If I had a 65 Mustang, missing the ashtray, the only reason that I would
pay anything significant for NOS replacement would be if I had immediate
plans to sell it to somebody for whom that stuff matters.
Yes, I can see the differences between the original headlight assembly on
the Honda, and the Chinese imitation replacement. But, I don't care.
For a long time, I wanted a Twiggy drive, since I had some of MOST other
types of drives. Now, I'm not into floppy disk formats like I used to be.
Anybody need a 3" drive? (I'll start with ones that are in reach; I don't
know when I will find the 3.25" or Amlyn drives)
4:32 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On 10/7/2016 5:21 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 10/07/2016 03:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
I agree -- how astonishingly retarded
that they sold for that much. But boy,
wouldn't I like to be that ever-so-lucky
seller!
- J.
ouch!
this is about 2x what I thought they would go for
On 10/1/16 7:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/291894250804
That simply defies logic. I *really* don't get this collecting business.
--Chuck
4:41 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On 10/7/16 4:32 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
how astonishingly retarded that they sold for that much.
nah.. maybe Alan in Soquel will list the ones he's been hoarding.
4:58 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On 10/07/2016 04:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
On 10/7/16 4:32 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote:
In non-computer-related sales that initially commanded an outrageous
price, I've seen the prices of subsequent sales decline precipitously.
So Alan may not be in such a deliriously happy place.
Sort of like a stamp collector selling a specimen thought to be the only
one in existence and then discovering that there were 10 more out there.
In particular, I have to wonder how much of this stuff is buried in
overseas e-waste piles.
--Chuck
how astonishingly retarded that they sold for that much.
nah.. maybe Alan in Soquel will list the ones he's been hoarding. 
5 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On Fri, Oct 7, 2016 at 6:58 PM, Chuck Guzis <cclist at sydex.com> wrote:
In particular, I have to wonder how much of this stuff
is buried in
overseas e-waste piles.
I have one single Twiggy diskette, Apple branded. Maybe I can get a
dinner or two out of it...
7:15 p.m.
New subject: Twiggys [was: Re: ka... ching!]
On 10/07/2016 05:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
ouch!
this is about 2x what I thought they would go for
On 10/1/16 7:19 AM, Al Kossow wrote:
Groan! I've been collecting the WRONG stuff!
Jon
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