23 Dec
2011
23 Dec
'11
10:47 a.m.
Hi all,
after i finally resurrected my BIGBOARD and I made ??the boot of the operating system
CP/M, are struggling with reading old diskettes. Before i comes out completely my mind in
the counting of all parameters to pass to the program 22disk, someone knows a
comprehensive guide on how to decode the disc formats? I am very close to the
identification of parameters, but frankly it is extremely stressful. I'll try to list
where I am keeping in mind that the format Bigboard 1 has 77 tracks x 26 sectors / track
each with 128byte single-density single-sided.
1) almost every disk CP/M in the first 2 tracks the format is 77 tracks x 26 sectors /
track each from 128byte.
2) then starts the data portion that would be double-sided and i need to remove from this
portion the sectors used for the FAT whose number is to be calculated as a function of the
total number of sectors to be managed;
3) i'm able to reconstruct the sequence of sectors on the disk for the first 2 tracks
with the CP/M and for the remain data area;
4) then takes over a parameter which is the allocation unit size that means how fields are
grouped together to determine the parameters DRM
5) the allocation unit size determines all the other parameters BSH, BLM, DSM
6) Finally, AL0 and AL0 that the 22disk's document did not clarify well to me.
SO: that it is a bit hard for me...
Is out there anyone who can help me?
Excuse for my poor english.
Enrico -Pisa - Italy
2:25 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 23 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it) on
the Sydex homepage. :)
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
Hi all,
...
The registered version of 22Disk has 4 Big Board definitons.
3:09 p.m.
BTW, was
this page made in 1987? :o)
You want to redesign it, be my guest. 
24 Dec
24 Dec
10:24 a.m.
On 12/23/2011 4:32 PM, Alexandre Souza - Listas wrote:
CSS??? We don't need no steenking CSS! ;-)
--
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!
No where did I
find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it)
on the Sydex homepage. :)|
BTW, was this page made in 1987? :o)
2:05 p.m.
CSS??? We don't need no steenking CSS! ;-)
I don't generally use CSS on most of my info pages, even now. It's
unnecessary to simply informing someone.
--
------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ --
Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com
-- Good-bye. I am leaving because I am bored. -- George Saunders' dying words -
23 Dec
23 Dec
2:34 p.m.
On 23 Dec 2011 at 14:25, Gene Buckle wrote:
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
We have an email address.
--Chuck
On 23 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it)
on the Sydex homepage. :) Hi all,
...
The registered version of 22Disk has 4 Big Board definitons.
2:47 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
On 23 Dec 2011 at 14:25, Gene Buckle wrote:
I'm happy for you. It still doesn't lead anyone to think that 22disk is
available any longer. You might want to go out on a limb and do something
wild and crazy like mention somewhere on the homepage that 22disk is still
available. I know, I know - crazy talk.
g.
--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies.
ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://www.scarletdme.org - Get it _today_!
Political correctness is a doctrine, fostered by a delusional, illogical
minority, and rabidly promoted by an unscrupulous mainstream media, which
holds forth the proposition that it is entirely possible to pick up a turd
by the clean end.
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
We have an email address.
On 23 Dec 2011 at 19:47, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
No where did I find a place to buy a copy of 22disk (or register it)
on the Sydex homepage. :) Hi all,
...
The registered version of 22Disk has 4 Big Board definitons.
4:20 p.m.
On 23 Dec 2011 at 14:47, Gene Buckle wrote:
I'm happy for you. It still doesn't lead
anyone to think that 22disk
is available any longer. You might want to go out on a limb and do
something wild and crazy like mention somewhere on the homepage that
22disk is still available. I know, I know - crazy talk.
Sigh. We quit advertising because quite honestly, people now lack
the *hardware* to do for themselves. Sample questions:
1) Can I use my PC with Windows 7 64-bit and a USB floppy drive?
2) I found a floppy drive on Craigslist, how do I hook it to my
laptop so I can use your software?
3) I ordered 22Disk from you people and it won't read my Brother
typewriter floppies.
4) Is MS-DOS the same as Windows?
You get the idea.
I've worked out two "re-do" versions of 22Disk since the one everyone
seems to know. One deals with really oddball formats (differently-
sized sectors, weird skews, etc.) and the other is a Win32 product
with a kernel-mode floppy driver. But now, even floppy interfaces
are dead, so aside from a couple of OEM sales, we've let them drop.
We'd just as soon encourage people to send us their media and have us
do the work for them. Very often, what they think they've got isn't
what they really have.
It's better that they should contact us rather than be bitterly
disappointed.
It seems that most CP/M stuff is finally really dead, but for a few
industrial exceptions. In the last two weeks, not one job was
related to CP/M. Word processors and oddly, two ISIS-II jobs (one
from an MDS-800 (MMFM) and the other from an iPDS
(MFM)).
Now, if someone can help to design a web page for me that addresses
that aspect, I'd be grateful. I might even show my gratitude. I am
NOT a visually-oriented person--most flashy web sites are horrible
muddles to me.
Thanks,
Chuck
24 Dec
24 Dec
1:32 p.m.
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
1) Can I use my PC with Windows 7 64-bit and a USB
floppy drive?
2) I found a floppy drive on Craigslist, how do I hook it to my
laptop so I can use your software?
3) I ordered 22Disk from you people and it won't read my Brother
typewriter floppies.
4) Is MS-DOS the same as Windows?
. . . and the "What option do I select to read Apple][ diskettes? I KNOW
that it can be done, because they both turn at 300RPM." hasn't stopped,
either.
"After I copy my diskettes, can I return it and get my money back?"
"I copied the files, but something is wrong with your program; Office 2014
won't open them!"
2:34 p.m.
On 24 Dec 2011 at 13:32, Fred Cisin wrote:
"I copied the files, but something is wrong with
your program; Office
2014 won't open them!"
Or the one that taught me to limit free support to nonpaying callers:
"Thanks, I've got what I need, so I won't be buying your product."
So offering the service instead of the product is the way to go.
Customers are happier and delighted that you even copied that Mac
400K floppy stuck in a pile of NEC Bungo floppies.
--Chuck
6:38 p.m.
I feel your pain...
----- Original Message -----
From: "Fred Cisin" <cisin at xenosoft.com>
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
Sent: Saturday, December 24, 2011 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes
On Fri, 23 Dec 2011, Chuck Guzis wrote:
1) Can I use my PC with Windows 7 64-bit and a
USB floppy drive?
2) I found a floppy drive on Craigslist, how do I hook it to my
laptop so I can use your software?
3) I ordered 22Disk from you people and it won't read my Brother
typewriter floppies.
4) Is MS-DOS the same as Windows?
. . . and the "What option do I select to read Apple][ diskettes? I KNOW
that it can be done, because they both turn at 300RPM." hasn't stopped,
either.
"After I copy my diskettes, can I return it and get my money back?"
"I copied the files, but something is wrong with your program; Office 2014
won't open them!"
10:28 p.m.
On 12/23/2011 6:20 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
<snip>
Now, if someone can help to design a web page for me that addresses
that aspect, I'd be grateful. I might even show my gratitude. I am
NOT a visually-oriented person--most flashy web sites are horrible
muddles to me.
Thanks,
Chuck
I couldn't agree more about the flashy web sites. I just looked at an
"improved" web site this week that belongs to a friend of mine, and all
the new animation that had been added almost made me dizzy.
BTW, I certainly hope you don't take my feeble attempt at humor re. CSS
earlier as a criticism of your web site. Actually, I find clean,
relatively simple sites very appealing. For one example, why would one
ever fundamentally change Craigslist? Yes, it's all or mostly text, but
it certainly gets the job done. (I'm afraid my weak attempts at humor
have gotten me in a bit of trouble in the past...)
--
Later,
Charlie C.
In God We Trust!!!
11:12 p.m.
On 25 Dec 2011 at 0:28, Charlie Carothers wrote:
BTW, I certainly hope you don't take my feeble
attempt at humor re.
CSS earlier as a criticism of your web site. Actually, I find clean,
relatively simple sites very appealing. For one example, why would
one ever fundamentally change Craigslist? Yes, it's all or mostly
text, but it certainly gets the job done. (I'm afraid my weak
attempts at humor have gotten me in a bit of trouble in the past...)
Nah, I'm just miserable with visual stuff. I can code HTML pretty
well, but I just don't know what appeals to the eye.
At least I don't have a flashy site with a bunch of 404 links. I
seem to be running into a lot of those lately.
Nor do I know if it would do any good.
Merry Happy Season!
Chuck
25 Dec
25 Dec
12:16 a.m.
New subject: CSS [was Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes]
> Actually, I find clean, relatively simple sites
very appealing.
Personally, I have nothing against CSS. (Actually, not quite nothing;
it's a waste of perfectly good bandwidth, but usually to a minor extent
at worst.) What I do find horrid is pages that do not fall back
gracefully when the CSS, images, embedded Flash, and the like get
ignored and everything's rendered as text. I use lynx, y'see.
Nah, I'm just miserable with visual stuff. I can
code HTML pretty
well, but I just don't know what appeals to the eye.
That's not surprising, because "what appeals to the eye" is
ill-defined, unless you are talking about a particular viewer. (Or
group of viewers, which, if sufficiently similar, can cut the
ill-definedness down to the point where it vanishes for practical
purposes.) Many of the things that enhance usability in general - or
at least appear to be widely believed to do so - severely cripple
usability for me. For example, I will not tolerate dark-on-light for
routine text; large areas of bright are anathema to me. But, even on
the rare occasions when I use Firefox (which I do every once in a
while, at work), it's the depressingly rare page that actually renders
decently with background overridden to black and foreground overridden
to white.
The _real_ problem with CSS, though, is that it's on the wrong end of
the HTTP link. Content providers should not be presentation imposers.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
3 Jan
3 Jan
12:33 p.m.
New subject: CSS [was Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes]
On 12/25/2011 03:16 AM, Mouse wrote:
The _real_ problem with CSS, though, is that it's
on the wrong end of
the HTTP link. Content providers should not be presentation imposers.
[chiming in late here, I was on the road]
This is 100% true of course, but just as with HTTP itself, the world
of technologically-inept morons who can spot a potential marketing
mechanism in ANYTHING have perverted it beyond all recognition. HTML5
is cleaning some of it up, but man, what a mess these kids have made of
things.
And to add insult to injury, when you try to teach them about any of
this, they assume the "that's just your opinion!" attitude...which is
pretty damn arrogant coming from people who have no idea of where this
stuff came from or why it was brought into existence in the first place.
People Who Weren't There, in other words, trying to tell People Who
Were There about stuff.
-Dave
--
Dave McGuire
New Kensington, PA
1:23 p.m.
New subject: CSS [was Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes]
The _real_
problem with CSS, though, is that it's on the wrong end of
the HTTP link. Content providers should not be presentation imposers.
This is 100% true of course, but just as with HTTP itself, the world
of technologically-inept morons who can spot a potential marketing
mechanism in ANYTHING have perverted it beyond all recognition. HTML5
is cleaning some of it up, but man, what a mess these kids have made of
things. 
2:28 p.m.
New subject: CSS [was Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes]
On Tue, Jan 3, 2012 at 3:33 PM, Dave McGuire <mcguire at neurotica.com> wrote:
On 12/25/2011 03:16 AM, Mouse wrote:
> The _real_ problem with CSS, though, is that it's on the wrong end of
> the HTTP link. ?Content providers should not be presentation imposers.
One of the loudest laments I remember from traditional media producers
(publishers, editors, graphic artists, writers, journalists, etc.)
about the Web when it was new was "OMG! We can't control the exact
user experience for all of our readers and they *need* us to do that
for them!" They were used to the size, the color, the font, the look,
everything about the finished product being exactly as it was when it
left their hands. One of the features of settings in the browser was
the ability for people with different sized screens, or different
thicknesses of glasses or whatever to tweak the appearance for their
preference or convenience.
It's one of the reasons that PDFs exist - they de-abstracted delivered
content back to a virtual rendering of a printed page that you could
then print out. PDF features were built-in to lock users out of
altering the rendered appearance, partially as DRM and partially to
enforce the content producer's emissions as the be-all-end-all of the
content.
CSS to me is a footnote of that - it centralizes that enforcement so
that it takes less labor to tweak or re-work a style, but it's just,
IMO, a macro system for extracting formatting out of the primary
document and centralizing it. What I can't stand is when, frequently,
due to network congestion or load or whatever, when I get the HTML
page but _not_ the CSS to go with it. I see raw spewage from one page
or another several times a week because of this. They _could_ embed
the style information inside the primary document, but that adds back
in the labor savings of a single centrally-maintained style sheet, so
I rarely see embedded style info these days.
?This is 100% true of course, but just as with HTTP
itself, the world of
technologically-inept morons who can spot a potential marketing mechanism in
ANYTHING have perverted it beyond all recognition.
I'd call that the second wave... after the content producers were
satisfied that they could once again maintain their control, they
settled down and the marketing types moved in to exploit the
landscape.
?And to add insult to injury, when you try to teach
them about any of this,
they assume the "that's just your opinion!" attitude...which is pretty
damn
arrogant coming from people who have no idea of where this stuff came from
or why it was brought into existence in the first place. ?People Who Weren't
There, in other words, trying to tell People Who Were There about stuff.
There's plenty of that to go around (like AOL "telling" Time-Warner
how the business world and the Internet was going to be... we all know
how well that ended up for AOL - Disclaimer: I used to work for
AOL-Time-Warner and saw more than I care to remember of that while it
was unfolding).
-ethan
4 Jan
4 Jan
12:16 a.m.
New subject: CSS [was Re: 22disk & CP/M's diskettes]
Dave McGuire [mcguire at neurotica.com] wrote:
On 12/25/2011 03:16 AM, Mouse wrote:
I thought that with CSS, *you* could override the site's decisions
and superimpoose your will?
Without CSS I do
<TR ALIGN=LEFT> <TH COLSPAN=2 BGCOLOR="D2B48C">
(lots of times) and you don't get much choice.
Although, if you're on lynx, does it make much difference either way?
Antonio
The _real_ problem with CSS, though, is that
it's on the wrong end of
the HTTP link. Content providers should not be presentation
imposers.
[chiming in late here, I was on the road]
This is 100% true of course, 
23 Dec
23 Dec
4:04 p.m.
On 12/23/2011 01:47 PM, Enrico Lazzerini wrote:
Hi all,
after i finally resurrected my BIGBOARD and I made ??the boot of the operating system
CP/M, are struggling with reading old diskettes. Before i comes out completely my mind in
the counting of all parameters to pass to the program 22disk, someone knows a
comprehensive guide on how to decode the disc formats? I am very close to the
identification of parameters, but frankly it is extremely stressful. I'll try to list
where I am keeping in mind that the format Bigboard 1 has 77 tracks x 26 sectors / track
each with 128byte single-density single-sided.
1) almost every disk CP/M in the first 2 tracks the format is 77 tracks x 26 sectors /
track each from 128byte.
Only if 8" single density, which was a standard for
CP/m If you had 8
inch. It's referred to as 8" SSSD.
Most of my systems the disk is 5.25 and either 16 sectors of 256 or 9
sectors of 512 (both DD) or the oddball
18 sector single density. Once the users left 8" single density single
sided there were very few standards
but a few were frequently used.
2) then starts the data portion that would be
double-sided and i need to remove from this portion the sectors used for the FAT whose
number is to be calculated as a function of the total number of sectors to be managed;
FAT?? CP/M never used FAT as the allocation scheme was considerably
different.
More completely the FAT does not exist in the CP/M file structures.
A peek inside the CP/M file system:
CPM uses the directory as a block of data the first 16 bytes are the
file data like name and extension. The
second 16 bytes are the allocation block numbers (as byte values for
small disks or word values for large
disks) allocated to the file. If the file has more allocation blocks
than fit in a directory extent there will mean
additional directory entries (called extents) for that file and
additional block allocations. Directory areas are
reserved in the current allocation block size for that media
(1/2/4/8/16k) and remain fixed in size. From a
programmers view the extents (each entry) carried additional information
about the file in first 16 bytes
11 of which were for the file name and extension (8.3) and the remaining
bytes told if it was erased or in
use (relative byte 0),and the last 4 bytes (relative bytes 12,13,14,15)
had data on the file and the actual
extent number if there was more than one.
File directory was a list of file names with a linkage for files of more
than one extent.
What this means is CP/M has to read the entire directory to "log in" a
disk and establish the used and available
file space and those values are stored temporarily as bit strings in
variables called ALLOC0 and ALLOC1.
This is where FAT and CP/M are different the FAT scheme has a reserved
block on disk saying whats used
and unused, where CP/M the file extents contain the block number of the
used areas to get a FAT like table
you read the directory and using the block numbers (and BIOS specific
data) you create a list of used
and available allocation areas. There are other differences ut that one
is where the two diverge the most.
Its important to note that CP/M V2 and up was deigned to allow an
experienced programmer to build their own
BIOS for a new machine or extend/improve it to allow for new storage
media and other I/O. All of the format
on the media decisions were variables available to the programmer.
This allowed great flexibility in media
used with only one restrictions that being the media must be block
addressable and that CP/M could only
address large devices in logical blocks of 8mb maximum though a large
disk could be sliced up into
multiple logical disks. This allowed it to be used with block
addressable tape, floppies
of all sizes, hard disks, Ram disks, ROMdisks, Bubble memory, even
modern IDE, CF and SD.
Note the concept of a partition table is also not par of CP/M though the
BIOS could accommodate that
using an offset into the media.
With all that said.. THE 8"SSSD CP/M standard.
First sector number are 1,,26 there is no 0. Tracks are numbered 0 to 76.
CP/M used a logical sector of 128 bytes and SSSD was also a physical
sector of 128 bytes. Larger sectors can
be used but then deblocking is the responsibility of the BIOS to manage
and the OS has the cues to help. For
the 8" SSSD case we do not have to worry about deblocking.
The first two tracks of 26 x 128 were reserved for system with first
sector having a boot file and the remaining ones used
to store the image of CPM (complete CCP, BDOS and BIOS). These do not
exist in the file system and the BIOS has these
as an offset into the media. There is an actual BIOS pararmeter called
offset and it is used by the OS to calculate the
file position on the disk.
The actual file system starts at track 2 sector 1 (first sector of track
2) and continues to track 76 sector 26. It is for all
intents the logical 0 point of the disk.
Space on the disk is allocated in 1K block (groups of 8 128 byte
sectors) per 8"SSSD standard. There are 1950
128 byte sectors available but they are used as 1K blocks so there are
243kbytes (1K=1024 bytes) of
allocatable space. Yes, there are six unused sectors at the end of the
disk because the smallest block
the OS can allocate is 1K (8 sectors) it's unusable.
The first two blocks of 1K is preallocated as directory and can hold 64
directory entries of 32bytes each.
thsi reduces the available space by 2K so there are 241K bytes of space
on an empty disk. The ALV0 and ALV1
parameters in the BIOS preallocate these. ALV1=11000000b and
ALV1=00000000b (again for SSSD 8").
The ALV parameter is a bit map of used allocation blocks and for the
8"SSSD case is typically a reserved
area in ram of 31 bytes total (one bit for every Allocation block of the
media). This is stored in the BIOS
and reflected in the medias file system organization and format.
A file can be a be 1 byte ( but one 1K allocation block will be
consumed) or can be as large as 16Kbytes
for a file extent, and using multiple extents the file can be as large
as 241K (again for the SSSD 8" case).
A file can be scattered across the disk as the OS allocates blocks on an
available basis with a bias to
sequential blocks they exist. So file fragmentation is expected after
multiple create and delete cycles.
The sectors used to create a allocation block may not be sequential.
There is a parameter to allow
skewing sectors to allow for rotation of media for better access time.
The 8" SSSD was a skew of 6
was used based on the 8080 CPU speed and current floppy controllers.
This is also both optional
and the skew value is up to the system programmer writing the BIOS. For
example for most hard
disks th rotation rate was so high that skew is never used.
3) i'm able to reconstruct the sequence of sectors
on the disk for the first 2 tracks with the CP/M and for the remain data area;
The first two tracks of a cpm disk are the system tracks and are for
loading the OS itself. They are prior to the directory
block and the general storage (called data) area after that. They are
reserved by the BIOS but there is no on disk table
of that allocation.
4) then takes over a parameter which is the allocation
unit size that means how fields are grouped together to determine the parameters DRM
5) the allocation unit size determines all the other parameters BSH, BLM, DSM
Correct this establish the disk size in storage units or allocation
blocks in the range of 1k,2k,4k, rarely larger for floppies but can be
larger
for hard disks.
This establishes things like skew and other file system geometry. They
are programmable and the BIOS designer can
as they wish select them values that suit their system.
6) Finally, AL0 and AL0 that the 22disk's
document did not clarify well to me.
AL0 and AL1 are storage areas to accounting information in the BIOS area
(in ram) for tracking what allocation blocks
are in use. Important to the BIOS programmer but not part of the on
disk structure.
This is meaningless to 22disk which read disks as foreign but requires
knowledge of the foreign disks organization.
Do not confuse this with ALV which 22disk needs to know so it used the
directory correctly and of the correct size.
SO: that it is a bit hard for me...
S0?? I need context for that to mean any thing.
Is out there anyone who can help me?
I hope this is a help. I've written many a BIOS for CP/M systems and
even rewrote portions of the internal code
for my own entertainment. If your used to DOS or Windoes based OS then
this will look very foreign as they
are different in how they used disks.
Excuse for my poor english.
Seems good to me. But I only speak one language and I admire those that
can speak many.
Allison
Enrico -Pisa - Italy
4508
days inactive
4520
days old
21 comments
13 participants
participants (13)
-
ajp166＠verizon.net -
arcarlini＠iee.org -
cclist＠sydex.com -
cisin＠xenosoft.com -
csquared3＠tx.rr.com -
ddsnyder＠zoominternet.net -
elazzerini＠interfree.it -
ethan.dicks＠gmail.com -
geneb＠deltasoft.com -
mcguire＠neurotica.com -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
pu1bzz.listas＠gmail.com -
spectre＠floodgap.com