18 Oct
2010
18 Oct
'10
1:46 p.m.
I have looked it up again and what I was referring to was CSIRAC, in Melbourne.
Is your 1301 older than TNMoC's Elliot 803? I'm pretty sure that's 1962, too,
but I'm not sure which month...
The 803 is another project of the Computer Conservation Society and the chap who told me
my machine was the oldest (Rod Brown) had just come back from a committee meeting of the
CCS, so I presume they think mine is older but I would not like to argue that point, I was
only nine years old myself in 1962. I know my 1301 was installed in time for program
development to be finalised before it went live to handle the University of London's
undergraduate matriculation in 1962. The reason the University got a prototype machine was
that they threatened to tell the world there would not be any new undergraduates in 1962
and that a company called ICT was responsible. A machine destined for internal software
development was quickly diverted to the university. Every few weeks a team of engineers
would take over the machine for few hours and implement the changes made to all the other
six prototypes at GEC telephones Coventry and ICT Putney and maybe elsewhere too.
I am not interested in machines which have not been powered up for more than a year, even
if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of them working when turned on again
is low. Expansion and contraction, static electricity, chemical reactions especially in
old electrolytic capacitors take their toll. Computers were built to be used, one which
cannot be operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship. I love the
wonder of small children when they see how big, heavy, noisy and yes, smelly old computers
used to be than the modern things they are used to. I love getting them to type their name
on a Teletype, feeding the tape into the computer and have it print their name in legible
tape (aka ClearWrite). Later on I hope to have it print their name on the 600lpm line
printer, maybe in some fancy way with big letters made of lots of small letters or some
such. Next year I might make it punch a legible card as that now works once more.
Thanks for your thoughts.
Roger.
18 Oct
18 Oct
3:26 p.m.
I am not interested in machines which have not been
powered up for more than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood
of them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static
electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors take their toll.
Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be operated is no more interest to me
than the hull of an old ship.
Interesting you mention hulls of old ships and oldest operating
computers. It is likely that any list of "oldest operating computers"
would probably be dominated by special purpose digital* computers
(fire control, navigation, crypto, etc.) on ex-US and Soviet warships
serving in third world navies. Even in the backwaters of the US Navy
there are still some ancient machines still going.
Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that
historians tend to dismiss.
* The submarines of Taiwan still use the Mk IV Torpedo Data Computers
(mechanical analog), installed when the boats were still US during
World War 2.
--
Will
19 Oct
19 Oct
3:36 a.m.
Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in
the room that historians tend to dismiss.
How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, especially
in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations. Colossus,
ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. .... in fact this year's
winner of the Computer History Museum Prize* is "Calculating a Natural
World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a great read and focuses on Cold
War computer research.
* The prize is administered by the Society for the History of
Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and
Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for
professional computer historians.
9:13 a.m.
How do you figure? ?The early history of digital
computing, especially in
the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations.
But past 1955 or so - what gets mentioned? SAGE, of course, and often
a passing mention that ARPAnet was sort of military, but what else?
Not much gets mentioned beyond these.
Of course, some of it is still quite classified (crypto), which does
not help matters. And the Soviet stuff is almost completely
undiscovered.
--
Will
11:17 a.m.
New subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit
I thought this was an interesting conversation on reddit.
If you take out the trolls some of the comments are interesting
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dt5um/it_is_about_time_for_som…
"It is about time for some personal computing history revision: neither Steve Jobs or
Bill Gates invented the personal computer. It is really all about Chuck Peddle, the guy
that designed the 6502 and said "There is nothing nice about Steve Jobs and nothing
evil about Bill Gates. "
11:24 a.m.
New subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit
At 10:17 AM 10/19/2010, Christian Liendo wrote:
I thought this was an interesting conversation on
reddit.
If you take out the trolls some of the comments are interesting
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/dt5um/it_is_about_time_for_som…
In following a few links from that story, I was surprised to see that
it was Allen-Bradley, an old-line Milwaukee company, who funded the
startup of MOS Technology back in 1969, as a second-source for calculator chips.
A-B made calculators? Or was this part of some industrial control?
- John
12:14 p.m.
New subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit
In article <201010191524.o9JFOmFw006195 at billY.EZWIND.NET>,
John Foust <jfoust at threedee.com> writes:
In following a few links from that story, I was
surprised to see that
it was Allen-Bradley, an old-line Milwaukee company, who funded the
startup of MOS Technology back in 1969, as a second-source for calculator chi
ps.
A-B made calculators? Or was this part of some industrial control?
I know they made terminals for industrial (i.e. manufacturing and
process control) environments.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" -- DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipeline/>
Legalize Adulthood! <http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com>
4:26 p.m.
New subject: Revisionist conversation on reddit
On 19 Oct 2010 at 10:14, Richard wrote:
I know they made terminals for industrial (i.e.
manufacturing and
process control) environments. -- "The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline" --
DirectX 9 draft available for download
<http://legalizeadulthood.wordpress.com/the-direct3d-graphics-pipelin
e/>
I still have a boot disk for one of their "Advisor" CP/M systems.
--Chuck
1:25 p.m.
On 2010 Oct 19, at 12:36 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC in
that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers)
Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla
in the room that
historians tend to dismiss.
How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, especially
in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations.
Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. .... in fact this
year's winner of the Computer History Museum Prize* is "Calculating a
Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a great read and focuses
on Cold War computer research.
* The prize is administered by the Society for the History of
Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and
Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for
professional computer historians.
5:10 p.m.
Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in
the room that
historians tend to dismiss.
How do you figure? The early history of digital computing,
especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military
installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc.
.... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History Museum Prize*
is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a
great read and focuses on Cold War computer research.
* The prize is administered by the Society for the History of
Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and
Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for
professional computer historians.
6:07 p.m.
On 2010 Oct 19, at 2:10 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC in
that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers)
I stand corrected about SWAC. But SEAC (and its successor DYSEAC)
both went to the Army.
Is there some ref for this in relation to SEAC? From online refs I see
DYSEAC was built by NBS for delivery to the Army, but everything I have
seen for SEAC (1950) indicates it was at NBS for many years, where it
played a role in early image processing experiments (1957). It did some
computing for other gov agencies, but it's prime of life seems to have
been at NBS.
Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in
the room that
historians tend to dismiss.
How do you figure? The early history of digital computing,
especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military
installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc.
.... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History Museum
Prize* is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book
is a great read and focuses on Cold War computer research.
* The prize is administered by the Society for the History of
Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and
Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for
professional computer historians.
6:20 p.m.
>
Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla in the room that
> historians tend to dismiss.
How do you figure? The early history of digital computing,
especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military
installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE,
etc. .... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History Museum
Prize* is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book
is a great read and focuses on Cold War computer research.
* The prize is administered by the Society for the History of
Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and
Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for
professional computer historians.
Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC
in that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers)
7:03 p.m.
SEAC was used
for nuclear weapons testing. That's military.
I guess that means PDP-8s are
military. And Dells, for that matter.
7:54 p.m.
This isn't a point worth arguing.
If you are going to proclaim something, be prepared to defend it.
Any, if SEAC was a military machine, it should have a number, or more
likely a bunch of numbers, associated with the nomenclature. If you
can give me a documented nomenclature, I will concede and call SEAC a
military machine. Valid numbers include JETDS, Army/Navy/Air Force
Stock numbers (pre-NSN and FSN, of course), AFSAV stock numbers,
Army/Navy/Air Force procurement contract numbers, and so on.
Everything in the military has a number.
If you want an argument, go pick on Tony instead.
Nah...I killfiled him years ago.
--
Will
8:07 p.m.
This isn't
a point worth arguing.
If you are going to proclaim something, be prepared to
defend it. If you can give me a documented nomenclature, I will
concede and call SEAC a military machine.
Why should I care what you call it?
My only point is that it doesn't make sense to say historians "tend to
dismiss" military computing, because the early history of digital
computing and the early history of military computing are inextricably
linked, and also because there is a HUGE amount of professionally done
history about the subjects.
In short, I'm saying "Will Donzelli is wrong" .... even though I that's
very difficult for someone like you to accept. :-)
10:42 p.m.
On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 8:14 PM, William Donzelli <wdonzelli at gmail.com>wrote:
yea really, I mean, if you didn't know that Romans were first to start with
fast food including even *hamburgers*, what can you say ;)
'What Romans did for us' BBC docu (2000)
=Dan
--http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ragooman/
I don't
think it is worth going
on and on about.
OK. Done.
In short, I'm saying "Will Donzelli is
wrong" .... even though I that's
very
difficult for someone like you to accept. :-)
Gee, thanks.
6:32 p.m.
On 19 Oct 2010 at 18:20, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Keep in mind that just because a system resided at a
non-military
installation doesn't mean the military didn't use it. For example,
the Signal Corps lab that's now our museum was a customer of the Moore
School's differential analyzers.
...not forgetting the big iron at the various national laboratories
(LLL, LANL, etc.). The "bombers" always got priority time on the big
systems to run their simulations.
--Chuck
6:35 p.m.
On 2010 Oct 19, at 3:20 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Is there some ref for this in relation to SEAC? From online refs I
see DYSEAC was built by NBS for delivery to the Army, but everything
I have seen for SEAC (1950) indicates it was at NBS for many years,
where it played a role in early image processing experiments (1957).
It did some computing for other gov agencies, but it's prime of life
seems to have been at NBS.
SEAC was used for nuclear weapons testing. That's military.
Keep in mind that just because a system resided at a non-military
installation doesn't mean the military didn't use it. For example,
the Signal Corps lab that's now our museum was a customer of the Moore
School's differential analyzers.
Indeed, but I wouldn't say that just because a machine did some
computing for mil apps/clients, that that makes it a military machine.
Apparently it did some variety of computing tasks, I haven't seen
anything to suggest it's commissioning, primary use or majority effort
was for mil purposes.
>> Military computing tends to be 800 pound
gorilla in the room that
>> historians tend to dismiss.
>
> How do you figure? The early history of digital computing,
> especially in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military
> installations. Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE,
> etc. .... in fact this year's winner of the Computer History
> Museum Prize* is "Calculating a Natural World" by Atsushi Akera.
> The book is a great read and focuses on Cold War computer
> research.
>
> * The prize is administered by the Society for the History of
> Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information,
> and Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization
> for professional computer historians.
Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC
in that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers)
I stand corrected about SWAC. But SEAC (and its successor DYSEAC)
both went to the Army. In addition to the book I recommended, another great
source of
relevant history is the Office of Naval Research's "Digital Computer
Newsletter". Many of the issues are online. They provided regular
updates to the mil/industrial complex about the status and
applications of Giant Brains.
20 Oct
20 Oct
2:57 a.m.
And we have a winner!!
The Manchester computer of 1948 (Built 1946-1948)
It could store 1024 bits on a cathode-ray-tube, enough to demonstrate the
stored-program principle in working electronics, the first in the world to
do so
Built under the direction of Alan Turing and A von Neumann
?
-----Original Message-----
From: cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org]
On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert
Sent: 19 October 2010 18:25
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Oldest original proper computer (stored program etc)
On 2010 Oct 19, at 12:36 AM, Evan Koblentz wrote:
Not to take away from your point, but why do you include SEAC/SWAC in
that list? (both National Bureau of Standards computers)
Military computing tends to be 800 pound gorilla
in the room that
historians tend to dismiss.
How do you figure? The early history of digital computing, especially
in the 1940s - 1950s, is dominated by military installations.
Colossus, ENIAC, many UNIVACs, SEAC/SWAC, SAGE, etc. .... in fact this
year's winner of the Computer History Museum Prize* is "Calculating a
Natural World" by Atsushi Akera. The book is a great read and focuses
on Cold War computer research.
* The prize is administered by the Society for the History of
Technology's Special Interest Group for Computers, Information, and
Society, a.k.a. SHOT-SIGCIS. This is the primary organization for
professional computer historians. 
18 Oct
18 Oct
4:31 p.m.
Roger Holmes wrote:
I have looked it up again and what I was referring to
was CSIRAC, in
Melbourne.
Well I was -12 :-) The Science Museum have a complete 803 too, I believe - and
I can never remember if the one that the CCS sometimes mention is TSM's one or
TNMoCs. John Sinclair @ TNMoC might know the exact delivery date of TNMoC's
one, if you ever did decide that it was important.
Is your 1301 older than TNMoC's Elliot 803?
I'm pretty sure that's 1962,
too, but I'm not sure which month...
The 803 is another project of the Computer Conservation Society and the
chap who told me my machine was the oldest (Rod Brown) had just come back
from a committee meeting of the CCS, so I presume they think mine is older
but I would not like to argue that point, I was only nine years old myself
in 1962. I am not interested in machines which have not been
powered up for more
than a year, even if they were operational when stored, the likelihood of
them working when turned on again is low. Expansion and contraction, static
electricity, chemical reactions especially in old electrolytic capacitors
take their toll.
I know they found in recent times at least one joint in the TNMoC machine
which was never soldered - it had left the factory like that, and had
continued to work for years that way, despite several moves.
Computers were built to be used, one which cannot be
operated is no more interest to me than the hull of an old ship.
I don't think I mind so much, so long as I can still poke around them
(supervised or with permission) even if they don't run. I find nothing
attractive in 'dead' systems kept behind barriers or in glass cases, though;
the internals are just as interesting as the cases, if not more so!
cheers
Jules
5001
days inactive
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21 comments
11 participants
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cclist＠sydex.com -
christian_liendo＠yahoo.com -
evan＠snarc.net -
hilpert＠cs.ubc.ca -
jfoust＠threedee.com -
jules.richardson99＠gmail.com -
legalize＠xmission.com -
ragooman＠gmail.com -
rodsmallwood＠btconnect.com -
roger.holmes＠microspot.co.uk -
wdonzelli＠gmail.com