23 Apr
2003
23 Apr
'03
7:30 p.m.
The suit is over the process of running the auction which another person
patented in the early 90s. It is an interesting suit. At one time in 2000 or
so eBay offered to pay licensing fees, then opted to fight it.
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process sucks. It is the second best
bidder that really sets the price. The advantage really is to the bidder.
Another very successful Internet auction run by LabX is a much preferred
model for me. It is where the sale is extended by a minute or two when each
bid comes in at the end of the auction. WWW.labx.com
I do much better for lab equipment here than on eBay. Auctions are much more
like real auctions. LabX is a totally different, more real auction model.
Very successful also.
I did an interesting experiment with some identical Olympus microscope tubes
(parts). They did sell for much more on eBay than LabX (av $75 vs. $20). On
the other hand an IBM HPLC did much better on LabX than eBay ($400 vs $35)
and saw a lot of action at the end.
To keep this on topic I do find classic computers on the LabX auction site
that were primarily used as lab controllers. They often go cheap.
Paxton
Astoria, OR
24 Apr
24 Apr
2:54 a.m.
Hi Paxton,
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process sucks.
Scan the DNF message board. A lot of other sellers share that same sentiment.
The advantage really is to the bidder.
And if eBay can capture the bidders, the sellers have little choice but to
follow.
That's why, having both sold and bought on eBay, I find eBay is great for
buying,
but for selling, not quite as good. Still has some good points from a
selling perspective,
i.e. huge exposure, etc. but there are some characteristics that are not so
good for
the seller.
a much preferred model for me. It is where the sale is
extended by a
minute or two
when each bid comes in at the end of the auction.
Yes, that one feature takes the teeth out of sniping. That model is what
the GSA
auctions uses. And they are selling their own ( all of our's actually )
stuff and want
to do the best they can on it.
On the other hand an IBM HPLC did much better on LabX
than eBay ($400
vs $35)
and saw a lot of action at the end.
Big difference, and I'm sure you were well able to find a good use for it.
At 03:28 AM 4/24/03 -0400, you wrote:
The suit is over the process of running the auction
which another person
patented in the early 90s. It is an interesting suit. At one time in 2000 or
so eBay offered to pay licensing fees, then opted to fight it.
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process sucks. It is the second best
bidder that really sets the price. The advantage really is to the bidder.
Another very successful Internet auction run by LabX is a much preferred
model for me. It is where the sale is extended by a minute or two when each
bid comes in at the end of the auction. WWW.labx.com
I do much better for lab equipment here than on eBay. Auctions are much more
like real auctions. LabX is a totally different, more real auction model.
Very successful also.
I did an interesting experiment with some identical Olympus microscope tubes
(parts). They did sell for much more on eBay than LabX (av $75 vs. $20). On
the other hand an IBM HPLC did much better on LabX than eBay ($400 vs $35)
and saw a lot of action at the end.
To keep this on topic I do find classic computers on the LabX auction site
that were primarily used as lab controllers. They often go cheap.
Paxton
Astoria, OR
4:47 a.m.
Mail List wrote:
Sniping is a requirement unless the bidder doesn't mind being the bid
price going up. I made a suggestion to ebay years ago that sealed bids
should be allowed that would only become known after the auction had
ended. That would encourage bidders to make a realistic bid of what they
are willing to pay, and make the sniping issue irrelevant. Of course,
since that would benefit the sellers, it was ignored.
Hi Paxton,
That feeling is, at least from what I have seen, not a universal one.
What seems to be far more reaching is the feeling that the ebay
management is incompetent from the standpoint of running auctions. They
are incredibly inept at making decisions that will help the sellers, and
incredibly arrogant at forcing their ideas on the ebay community. The
DNF Board (Discuss Newest Features Board for those who don't know) has a
number of people who are *very* familiar with the workings of ebay and
help out where they can.
<commercial>
The DNF Board has a tradition of people seeing how many multiple posts
they can make at 22:22:22 Ebay (Pacific Coast) time. The current record
is 17 in the single second. This is done manually and is actually a lot
of fun. Take a look at:
http://www.rain.org/~marvin/tuz.htm
for more information. I wrote this after I became (briefly) the reigning
champion with 8 or so posts. The DNF Board is at:
http://chatboards.ebay.com/chat.jsp?forum=1&thread=2
</commercial>
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process
sucks.
Scan the DNF message board. A lot of other sellers share that same
sentiment. a much
preferred model for me. It is where the sale is extended by a
minute or two when each bid comes in at the end of the auction.
Yes, that one
feature takes the teeth out of sniping.
25 Apr
25 Apr
3:04 p.m.
Hi Marvin,
One thing I forgot to add ...
Bite Me, eBay
Best Regards
At 09:45 AM 4/24/03 -0700, you wrote:
Mail List wrote:
Sniping is a requirement unless the bidder doesn't mind being the bid
price going up. I made a suggestion to ebay years ago that sealed bids
should be allowed that would only become known after the auction had
ended. That would encourage bidders to make a realistic bid of what they
are willing to pay, and make the sniping issue irrelevant. Of course,
since that would benefit the sellers, it was ignored.
Hi Paxton,
sentiment.
That feeling is, at least from what I have seen, not a universal one.
What seems to be far more reaching is the feeling that the ebay
management is incompetent from the standpoint of running auctions. They
are incredibly inept at making decisions that will help the sellers, and
incredibly arrogant at forcing their ideas on the ebay community. The
DNF Board (Discuss Newest Features Board for those who don't know) has a
number of people who are *very* familiar with the workings of ebay and
help out where they can.
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process
sucks.
Scan the DNF message board. A lot of other sellers share that same a much
preferred model for me. It is where the sale is extended by a
minute or two when each bid comes in at the end of the auction.
Yes, that one
feature takes the teeth out of sniping. 
24 Apr
24 Apr
3:45 a.m.
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, Innfogra(a)aol.com wrote:
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process sucks.
It is the second
best bidder that really sets the price. The advantage really is to the
bidder.
I feel that the advantage quite frequently tilts to the seller. When two or
more bidders are competing in the final moments of an auction, they get
caught in the excitement of battle, and those psychological forces induce
them to place bids higher then they would have normally placed. I have
experienced it both as a seller and as a bidder.
Another very successful Internet auction run by LabX
is a much preferred
model for me. It is where the sale is extended by a minute or two when
each bid comes in at the end of the auction. WWW.labx.com
My favorite idea is simply to have sealed bids. That is, you don't know the
high bid until the auction closes. Doing it that way prevents last-minute
psychology from causing bad decisions.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
4:09 a.m.
Out of curiosity, why is it in my best interest as a seller to prevent
people from making rash decisions? Unless you're a very strange seller,
most sellers are out to get the maximum amount they can for the item in
question. It's not my moral or social responsibility to keep others from
making stupid decisions. If you're old enough to bid/sell on eBay (and RL
auctions), you're old enough to decide if you're spending too much or not
(and I'm not talking about mispresented products).
This is very much NOT like preying on old people for home repairs. eBay
may turn into an addiction for some, but no one MAKES you press the 'bid'
button.
--John
-----Original Message-----
From: cctalk-admin(a)classiccmp.org
[mailto:cctalk-admin@classiccmp.org]On
Behalf Of Jeffrey Sharp
Sent: Thursday, April 24, 2003 11:49
To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: eBay being sued over patent infringement
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, Innfogra(a)aol.com wrote:
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process
sucks. It
is the second
best bidder that really sets the price. The
advantage
really is to the
bidder.
I feel that the advantage quite frequently tilts to the
seller. When two or
more bidders are competing in the final moments of an
auction, they get
caught in the excitement of battle, and those psychological
forces induce
them to place bids higher then they would have normally
placed. I have
experienced it both as a seller and as a bidder.
Another very successful Internet auction run by
LabX is a
much preferred
model for me. It is where the sale is extended by
a minute
or two when
each bid comes in at the end of the auction.
WWW.labx.com
My favorite idea is simply to have sealed bids. That is, you
don't know the
high bid until the auction closes. Doing it that way
prevents last-minute
psychology from causing bad decisions.
--
Jeffrey Sharp 
4:38 a.m.
Out of curiosity, why is it in my best interest as a
seller to prevent
people from making rash decisions? Unless you're a very strange seller,
most sellers are out to get the maximum amount they can for the item in
question. It's not my moral or social responsibility to keep others from
making stupid decisions. If you're old enough to bid/sell on eBay (and RL
auctions), you're old enough to decide if you're spending too much or not
(and I'm not talking about mispresented products).
This is very much NOT like preying on old people for home repairs. eBay
may turn into an addiction for some, but no one MAKES you press the 'bid'
button.
--John
It's clearly not. But as I mentioned before, the only one whining about
this are the ones that used to find "steals" and are not complaining
because they can't get these "steals." I have heard very many new people
on eBay saying they "don't care" about the high prices that others
"perceive." They know that is their only opportunity to get those items.
The only ones being hurt by the eBay model are the ones that still want
"bargains".
25 Apr
25 Apr
3:03 a.m.
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, Mike wrote:
But as I mentioned before, the only one whining about
this are the ones
that used to find "steals" and are not complaining because they can't get
these "steals."
I'm not really complaining as much as I am saying "What if?". I still
enjoy
eBay a great deal and buy something from it every week or so. I usually
browse every day.
The only ones being hurt by the eBay model are the
ones that still want
"bargains".
Bargains still happen on eBay.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
2:58 a.m.
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
As a seller, there are two advantages that I can identify. First, it
promotes customer satisfaction, which leads to a more profitable long-term
relationship with the customer. Second, people who make rash decisions are
less likely to pay, and nonpaying bidders are a real pain. It may be worth
it to reduce the probability of experiencing that pain.
As both a seller and a bidder, eBay is a great tool for discovering the
approximate values of things. Last-minute auction psychology, IMHO,
artificially inflates these prices (though generally not by much). A
sealed-bid system, by decreasing the last-minute effect, would make eBay's
market values for things more accurately reflect the market values outside
of eBay. Thus, eBay would become a better value estimation tool.
As a bidder, it's currently inconvenient. The way eBay works (and I'm not
really a big eBay basher; I have lots of fun with it), if you really want to
be competitive, you have to snipe. You have to be paying attention when the
auction ends (I wouldn't trust a sniping service IMHO). That's difficult to
do for a great many people and depends on work, weather, and a virtually
infinite number of other factors. A sealed-bid system would enable people
to bid -- competitively -- at their convenience and then go on about their
lives.
My favorite
idea is simply to have sealed bids. That is, you don't know
the high bid until the auction closes. Doing it that way prevents
last-minute psychology from causing bad decisions.
Out of curiosity, why is it in my best interest as a seller to prevent
people from making rash decisions? It's not my moral or social responsibility to keep
others from making
stupid decisions.
I do not have the following view, but some may say that it is unethical to
take advantage of people by exploiting their psychology.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
3:39 a.m.
Jeffrey,
(I wouldn't trust a sniping service IMHO)
The sniping service has missed getting a bid in on a couple of occasions
due to delays caused by high network traffic loads
You have to be paying attention when the auction ends
This one gets me sometimes. There have been some items I had meant
to bid on, but ended up getting too busy, and then when I got to checking
the auction, found I had let the time get away from me, and it was already
over and done.
There are some advantages to getting one's bid entered early also.
At 10:02 AM 4/25/03 -0500, you wrote:
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, J.C.Wren wrote:
As a seller, there are two advantages that I can identify. First, it
promotes customer satisfaction, which leads to a more profitable long-term
relationship with the customer. Second, people who make rash decisions are
less likely to pay, and nonpaying bidders are a real pain. It may be worth
it to reduce the probability of experiencing that pain.
As both a seller and a bidder, eBay is a great tool for discovering the
approximate values of things. Last-minute auction psychology, IMHO,
artificially inflates these prices (though generally not by much). A
sealed-bid system, by decreasing the last-minute effect, would make eBay's
market values for things more accurately reflect the market values outside
of eBay. Thus, eBay would become a better value estimation tool.
As a bidder, it's currently inconvenient. The way eBay works (and I'm not
really a big eBay basher; I have lots of fun with it), if you really want to
be competitive, you have to snipe. You have to be paying attention when the
auction ends (I wouldn't trust a sniping service IMHO). That's difficult to
do for a great many people and depends on work, weather, and a virtually
infinite number of other factors. A sealed-bid system would enable people
to bid -- competitively -- at their convenience and then go on about their
lives.
My
favorite idea is simply to have sealed bids. That is, you don't know
the high bid until the auction closes. Doing it that way prevents
last-minute psychology from causing bad decisions.
Out of curiosity, why is it in my best interest as a seller to prevent
people from making rash decisions? It's not my moral or social responsibility to
keep others from making
stupid decisions.
I do not have the following view, but some may say that it is unethical to
take advantage of people by exploiting their psychology.
--
Jeffrey Sharp 
5:28 a.m.
--- Jeffrey Sharp <jss(a)subatomix.com> wrote:
You have to be
paying attention when the
auction ends (I wouldn't trust a sniping service
IMHO).
I use esnipe, and only once did it miss a bid, and
that was two years ago when both ebay and esnipe were
buggy, since then its always place the bid within a
few seconds of my target time. I can't ever imagine
going back to the old manual method
because of the difficulties you listed below.
That's difficult to
do for a great many people and depends on work,
weather, and a virtually
infinite number of other factors.
I think you just need to use esnipe a few times to
build your confidence
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
6:50 a.m.
On Friday, April 25, 2003, steve wrote:
--- Jeffrey Sharp <jss(a)subatomix.com> wrote:
So what happens when you and I both use the same sniping service on the same
auction for the same bid?
--
Jeffrey Sharp
You have to be paying attention when the auction
ends (I wouldn't trust
a sniping service IMHO).
I think you just need to use esnipe a few times to build your confidence 
7:05 a.m.
On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
On Friday, April 25, 2003, steve wrote:
The universe implodes and we start all over again in about 15 billion
years.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
--- Jeffrey Sharp <jss(a)subatomix.com>
wrote:
So what happens when you and I both use the same sniping service on the same
auction for the same bid? You have to be paying attention when the auction
ends (I wouldn't trust
a sniping service IMHO).
I think you just need to use esnipe a few times to build your confidence
7:14 a.m.
--- Jeffrey Sharp <jss(a)subatomix.com> wrote:
So what happens when you and I both use the same
sniping service on the same
auction for the same bid?
The bid placed earlist would win (well, assuming no
other higher bids were placed). You tell esnipe
exactly when to bid (its accurate to a few seconds).
No two ebay bids occur at exactly the same time, even
with a sniping service. So even if we both tell
esnipe to bid 5 seconds before the auction ends. One
may be placed 5.01 seconds and the other perhaps 4.99
seconds before the auction ends. Depends how the
server ques us up...
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
8:27 a.m.
On Fri, 25 Apr 2003, steve wrote:
--- Jeffrey Sharp <jss(a)subatomix.com> wrote:
I use StealthBid. It's accurate to the second. The only time I lose an
auction with StealthBid is either when I didn't bid enough or someone
outsnipes me in the last second (StealthBid gets it's bid in within the
last 3-4 seconds of an auction).
http://www.stealthbid.com
(free credits for new users so you can trial the service)
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
So what happens when you and I both use the same
sniping service on the same
auction for the same bid?
The bid placed earlist would win (well, assuming no
other higher bids were placed). You tell esnipe
exactly when to bid (its accurate to a few seconds). 
8:40 a.m.
I bid on a NeXT cube in 2001. I had exactly the same bid as the
winning bidder and the item display had the same bid time down to the
second. I questioned ebay about it. They gave me the bid time down to
.01 second. I missed the bid by .01 second.
James
steve wrote:
--- Jeffrey Sharp <jss(a)subatomix.com> wrote:
So what happens when you and I both use the same
sniping service on the same
auction for the same bid?
The bid placed earlist would win (well, assuming no
other higher bids were placed). You tell esnipe
exactly when to bid (its accurate to a few seconds).
No two ebay bids occur at exactly the same time, even
with a sniping service. So even if we both tell
esnipe to bid 5 seconds before the auction ends. One
may be placed 5.01 seconds and the other perhaps 4.99
seconds before the auction ends. Depends how the
server ques us up...
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com
24 Apr
24 Apr
4:10 a.m.
My favorite idea is simply to have sealed bids. That
is, you don't know
the
high bid until the auction closes. Doing it that way prevents last-minute
psychology from causing bad decisions.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
Why would a seller ever buy into this system? The only thing the seller
cares about is getting the best price. Further, that is all that eBay
cares about.
NO SYSTEM that make it easy to get a steal, will ever be adopted. The
only systems that will ever win out are the ones that offer sellers high
returns. The seller will simply choose the medium that will offer the
greater return.
You say the bidders will just go where there are lower prices. But the
problem is there won't be anything to buy. Collectible type items have a
fixed number available and there will always be someone who is willing to
pay a higher price. So, the sellers have all the cards in this game.
3:19 p.m.
On Thu, 24 Apr 2003, Mike wrote:
NO SYSTEM that make it easy to get a steal, will ever
be adopted. The
only systems that will ever win out are the ones that offer sellers high
returns. The seller will simply choose the medium that will offer the
greater return.
That's not true. That assumes that the seller is only interested in the
money aspect. There is also value in a great many other things, such as
customer loyalty, customer service, treating the customer right, etc.
You say the bidders will just go where there are lower
prices. But the
problem is there won't be anything to buy. Collectible type items have a
fixed number available and there will always be someone who is willing to
pay a higher price. So, the sellers have all the cards in this game.
Bidders might want to go where the prices are fair.
--
Sellam Ismail Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintage.org
* Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *
4:30 a.m.
Jeffrey,
When two or more bidders are competing in the final
moments of an
auction, they
get caught in the excitement of battle, and those
psychological forces
induce them
to place bids higher then they would have normally
placed. I have
experienced it both
as a seller and as a bidder.
This happens sometimes. I've been there. Sometimes my best way to keep from
getting
caught up in it is to enter my bid ( that hopefully only purely rational
thought has gone into
making that decision, leaving emotion out of it ) into a bid sniping
service, and then walking
away from it. Come back after it's all over and then see if the item was
won or not.
My favorite idea is simply to have sealed bids.
A sealed bid sale is effectively where every bid is the same as the snipe
bid. I'd bid at a few
sealed bid sales. I generally liked them, but again, you don't have the
chance to change your
mind and increase your bid if you're not the high bidder.
At 10:48 AM 4/24/03 -0500, you wrote:
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, Innfogra(a)aol.com wrote:
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process
sucks. It is the second
best bidder that really sets the price. The advantage really is to the
bidder.
I feel that the advantage quite frequently tilts to the seller. When two or
more bidders are competing in the final moments of an auction, they get
caught in the excitement of battle, and those psychological forces induce
them to place bids higher then they would have normally placed. I have
experienced it both as a seller and as a bidder.
Another very successful Internet auction run by
LabX is a much preferred
model for me. It is where the sale is extended by a minute or two when
each bid comes in at the end of the auction. WWW.labx.com
My favorite idea is simply to have sealed bids. That is, you don't know the
high bid until the auction closes. Doing it that way prevents last-minute
psychology from causing bad decisions.
--
Jeffrey Sharp 
5:32 a.m.
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, at 02:28 AM, Innfogra(a)aol.com wrote:
Actually, as a seller, I think the eBay process sucks.
It is the
second best
bidder that really sets the price. The advantage really is to the
bidder.
I'll grant that eBay is heavily slanted to the buyer, and that it's
far from perfect. My point was that eBay isn't breaking any anti-trust
laws by being the "Goliath" of online auctions. I also still maintain
that if the exposure didn't offset the difficulty, sellers would be
flocking elsewhere in droves.
Another very successful Internet auction run by LabX
is a much
preferred
model for me. It is where the sale is extended by a minute or two when
each
bid comes in at the end of the auction. WWW.labx.com
I think we've discussed that feature - the "last-bid extension" - on
CCmp before. I firmly believe that eBay, not only the auction house
and sellers, but eBay buyers as well, would benefit from that feature.
In truth, I don't do much selling on eBay. I do have several
acquaintances who make their living at it, but I don't handle enough
volume to require it often. I just let the folks I know know it's
there, and somebody almost always wants it.
Wow. I just got off the phone with my boss, and a guy we used to
race karts against/with is a plaintiff in the infringement suit. A
little closer to home....
Doc
27 Apr
27 Apr
7:28 a.m.
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, Doc Shipley wrote:
I do have several acquaintances who make their living
at it [eBay]
I tried that out of financial necessity for a while. It wasn't fun, and I
don't believe I was ever in the black WRT living expenses. I can't really
recommend it to anyone.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
9:42 a.m.
On Sunday, April 27, 2003, at 02:32 PM, Jeffrey Sharp wrote:
On Thursday, April 24, 2003, Doc Shipley wrote:
There are three companies here that I deal with doing it. As far as
I can tell, a warehouse is the first requirement, and a fair amount of
seed cash is the second. It takes a lot of volume.
DSI enterprises keeps about 8 people in the Austin office alone, just
running eBay auctions.
But I agree; it's not a career that appeals to me.
Doc
I do have several acquaintances who make their
living at it [eBay]
I tried that out of financial necessity for a while. It wasn't fun,
and I
don't believe I was ever in the black WRT living expenses. I can't
really
recommend it to anyone.
--
Jeffrey Sharp
7863
days inactive
7866
days old
21 comments
10 participants
participants (10)
-
doc＠mdrconsult.com -
gkicomputers＠yahoo.com -
Innfogra＠aol.com -
ipscone＠msdsite.com -
jcwren＠jcwren.com -
jrice54＠charter.net -
jss＠subatomix.com -
mail.list＠analog-and-digital-solutions.com -
marvin＠rain.org -
vcf＠siconic.com