7 Apr
2006
7 Apr
'06
4:51 p.m.
I thought I'd post a few pictures of my IBM emulation setup. While it's not
complete, it is functioning.
There is a PC box running unix with the hercules emulator on it. This box
has RJ45 ethernet to wireless for the home network. Also a temporary PC
monitor & keyboard (to be replaced with a rackmount 1U lcd/kbd unit soon as
I can find one cheap). Of course, it's just not the same unless you're
running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token ring
card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables. Also connected to
the 8223 is an IBM 3174 establishment controller (dual floppies, 9mb ram,
token ring - config C). Then connected to the 3174 is an IBM 3197 color
display station. Yup, I know it's been done before, but I wanted to do it
too :)
I'm still working on the code that lets my real HP2000/Access TimeShared
BASIC submit COBOL, FTN, BAL, PL/1, etc. jobs to the emulated IBM 370 setup
and get it's output and/or datasets back to the HP. Fun stuff.
I'm also going to try and set up a printer on the 3174 at some point as
well. I had a nice rack picked out for this hercules setup, but decided on a
different rack. Next step is to get all the stuff you see in the pics
rackmounted along with 1/2 tape drive & add SCSI controller to the herc PC.
Anyways, pictures can be seen at : http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/ibm/
MOST of the pics are clear this time :)
Jay
7 Apr
7 Apr
5:29 p.m.
In article <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0 at BILLING>,
"Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes:
There is a PC box running unix with the hercules
emulator on it.
What's the "hercules emulator"? Is this emulating a Hercules graphics
card? (Doubtful, but I thought I'd ask!)
[...] Of course, it's just not the same unless
you're
running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token ring
card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables.
Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. I like
the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it
doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style
connector on the back.
Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above
in order to get it to talk?
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because
that's accurate :).
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
5:59 p.m.
Richard wrote...
What's the "hercules emulator"? Is this
emulating a Hercules graphics
card? (Doubtful, but I thought I'd ask!)
The hercules emulator is a program
that runs on either windows or unix and
emulates any one of a number of IBM System/370 and ESA/370 architecture
mainframe systems. Think mainframe OS's like VM/CMS, DOS/VSE, MVS, CICS,
MUSIC, etc. I may try MUSIC soon, what with the TCP/IP, FTP, HTTP, etc.
support it has :) But my heart is still fond of VM/CMS, as that's what I
used a lot in college.
> [...] Of course, it's just not the same unless
you're
> running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token
> ring
> card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables.
Ug... I goofed... my
MAU is an 8228, not an 8223. My terminal is a 3179, not
a 3197.
Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180
terminal. I like
the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it
doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style
connector on the back.
No, it doesn't talk anything like RS-232 :) Nor can it
be converted to do
so. It's a whole different ball of wax. In the world of most mini's,
terminals were generally interchangeable. Not so in the ibm world. You can't
just hook a 3270 terminal up to a DEC or DG or HP. First, you must hook the
coax term to a controller like the 3174. I have recently dug in to the 3174
and that is one incredible box. Talk about massively over designed and full
of more options and features than one could barely dream up... wow. I think
your 3180 terminal is only useful if you have an IBM host to hook it up to.
That being said, I see some mention on the 3174 manual about setting the
terminal in to "cut" mode and then it might open multiple sessions to tcp/ip
hosts. I am not sure I'm reading about that capability correctly though.
Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you
describe above
in order to get it to talk?
You won't get it to talk to a non-ibm host ...
unless what I suggested above
is true. You'd need a 3174 at the least. You don't have to have token ring
set up. You can get a 3174 with the ethernet option for around $1500, or you
can get a 3174 with the token ring option for around $50. You decide :)
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know
nothing... because
that's accurate :).
Well, first, I need to see if it is possible to have a coax
terminal talk to
a non-3270 speaking host. I can define another station set in the 3174 that
goes to the standard telnet port and then connect from the 3179 and see if
it flys. No clue. If it does, then you could use that terminal. But
honestly, you have to go through a lot of gyrations and have a 3174 as well,
not sure it's worth it unless you have/want an IBM host.
Jay
6:03 p.m.
Richard wrote:
Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. I like
the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it
doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style
connector on the back.
Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above
in order to get it to talk?
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because
that's accurate :).
a 3180 looks to be a standard 3270. It can be used with a controller on
an IBM mainframe,
System 36, or various other ibm systems. IBM used a high speed serial
protocol that continuously
circulates information from the controller to the display / keyboard /
lightpen, mouse unit, and
put a lot of functionality of what an ascii terminal would do in the
controller. the box you get
as a 327x terminal, which this one probably can be made to look like has
a lot less potential
for use than what we on Classic computing is used to, as the logic and
smarts was in a
single box, shared by lots of tubes.
This approach allowed larger installations to be lower cost to fit out,
because all the terminals
did not have to be "smart" even by ADM 3 dumb terminal standards. The
3270 electronics
and its sibling, the Twinax 525x type interface also allowed something
that RS232 did not,
that is installations that were not of a star type topology. with
ascii, you have to do a home
run back to the host with rs232 for every terminal, and with 3270, you
can do multiple
drops on a single hose, or daisy chain with 525x. Also you can run thru
a remote controller
thru a bisync port, and put a controller similar to what Jay showed, but
instead of token
ring on the host side, a 3780 type modem and com interface, and put the
terminal cluster
anywhere in the world.
Also there are 327x type printers available which attach as well as a
whole host of other
gizmos, such as one would expect from IBM's terminal manufacturing division.
The Hercules emulator is an emulator which allows one to run an emulated
IBM mainframe. The
software is limited to public domain or Linux, without special IBM
license which is not available
at the moment for current mainframe software OS's. It is much more
appropriate for you to
seek information on the yahoo groups support groups for much more on
that. See below for a
link to the hercules emulator home page.
Jim
hercules home page.
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
The above has links to where to get information and software to run on
your emulated
mainframe. The mainframe software may be hosted on linux, mac, or
windows, and in some
cases on sparc. It is purely a software implementation. Only in the
case Jay mentions
is it possible to hook to actual IBM gear, directly, though there are
emulated connetions
to go between more than one Hercules emulation instance.
8 Apr
8 Apr
5:47 p.m.
Richard wrote:
Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC.
Peace... Sridhar
In article <001601c65a85$112bc830$6800a8c0 at
BILLING>,
"Jay West" <jwest at classiccmp.org> writes:
Hercules emulates mainframes.
There is a PC box running unix with the hercules
emulator on it.
What's the "hercules emulator"? Is this emulating a Hercules graphics
card? (Doubtful, but I thought I'd ask!) [...] Of
course, it's just not the same unless you're
running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a token ring
card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables.
Speaking of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. I like
the spring-loaded rising pedestal on it! However, I see that it
doesn't talk normal RS-232 like most terminals, it has a coax style
connector on the back.
Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above
in order to get it to talk?
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because
that's accurate :).
10 Apr
10 Apr
1:24 p.m.
In article <44382F7C.5000208 at gmail.com>,
Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> writes:
That's kinda overkill don't ya think?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
Speaking of
3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. [...]
Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above
in order to get it to talk?
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because
that's accurate :).
Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC.
1:35 p.m.
Ryan Blair wrote:
On Mon, 10 Apr 2006 11:24:55 -0600
Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
Not for a terminal that communicates in streams of EBCDIC ...
...over SNA, no less.
Peace... Sridhar
Get a
mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC.
That's kinda overkill
don't ya think? 
1:40 p.m.
> > Does this mean I need to get a token ring
setup as you describe above
> > in order to get it to talk?
It's not token ring.
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know
nothing... because
that's accurate :).
Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC.
1:51 p.m.
In article <200604101740.k3AHeOsc025392 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> writes:
Ok, perhaps an S/36? Or a P/390 and a 3274.
Seriously, it's not like these things have RS-232 ports.
It was the "mainframe" businss I thought was overkill, not the EBCDIC
part. And yes, I realize they don't have RS-232 ports. That's
obvious from looking at the back of the terminal :-).
Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could attach a terminal of
this style to it?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks
EBCDIC.
That's kinda overkill don't ya think?
2:04 p.m.
Richard wrote:
Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could attach a terminal of
this style to it?
no, they make cards so that IBM PC's can emulate being this type of
terminal.
The chip contained on some of the cards can be use to run one of the
terminals, in
a limited fashion, but the protocol is not widely available (for the
wire). The software
spec of what goes on is out there, and you can get some of what goes on
on the
wire, but the actual data protocol is not published by IBM.
I have a product that will capture the interchanges on the wire. One
might rig up a
utility to do that with a bit of programming with one of the interface
cards that are
available, if you were to try to reverse engineer what is on the wire.
This would assume of course you had access to a mainframe communicating with
one of the terminals.
Jim
2:14 p.m.
In article <443A9E32.9020408 at msm.umr.edu>,
jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> writes:
This would assume of course you had access to a
mainframe communicating with
one of the terminals.
Dang! :-)
So what's the cheapest way of cobbling together an SNA host without
dedicating a warehouse? :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
2:25 p.m.
Richard wrote:
In article <443A9E32.9020408 at msm.umr.edu>,
jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> writes:
Cheapest? Probably Hercules.
Peace... Sridhar
This would assume of course you had access to a
mainframe communicating with
one of the terminals.
Dang! :-)
So what's the cheapest way of cobbling together an SNA host without
dedicating a warehouse? :-)
11 Apr
11 Apr
12:33 a.m.
Jay West wrote:
Richard wrote...
It's more fun with SNA, though. 8-)
And 3745's are getting as cheap as 3174's nowadays.
Peace... Sridhar
So what's the cheapest way of cobbling
together an SNA host without
dedicating a warehouse? :-)
Actually, you don't need SNA. You just need a
3174, and either a
mainframe or a PC running hercules :)
10 Apr
10 Apr
2:06 p.m.
It was the "mainframe" businss I thought was
overkill, not the
EBCDIC part. And yes, I realize they don't have RS-232 ports.
That's obvious from looking at the back of the terminal :-).
Yeah, I figured. :-)
You can connect a 3274 remotely via SNA, so _it_ must have some kind
of serial port that could be talked to with the SNA-ware which was
once common among minicomputer vendors, for example. There were at
one point one or two projects to build SNA stacks for Linux. Also,
Microsoft has an SNA gateway product.
Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could
attach a terminal
of this style to it?
There was the "3270 PC", and a wide variety of third-party cards to
make the PC act like a terminal. Not sure about making it act like
a controller.
De
2:16 p.m.
In article <200604101806.k3AI6mmh026196 at yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> writes:
[...] Also,
Microsoft has an SNA gateway product.
Do you know the name of this?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
2:33 p.m.
Microsoft has an SNA gateway product.
Do you
know the name of this?
2:07 p.m.
Richard wrote:
In article <200604101740.k3AHeOsc025392 at
yagi.h-net.msu.edu>,
Dennis Boone <drb at msu.edu> writes:
Ok, perhaps an S/36? Or a P/390 and a 3274.
Seriously, it's not like these things have RS-232 ports.
It was the "mainframe" businss I thought was overkill, not the EBCDIC
part. And yes, I realize they don't have RS-232 ports. That's
obvious from looking at the back of the terminal :-).
Didn't they make cards for an IBM PC so you could attach a terminal of
this style to it?
Sort of. There's a card which will allow a PC to talk to a 3174
establishment controller. However, I don't know of any software that
will allow a plain-vanilla PC to talk to a 3174 without emulating a
mainframe or midrange system.
Peace... Sridhar
Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks
EBCDIC.
That's kinda overkill don't ya think? 
2:59 p.m.
On Monday 10 April 2006 13:24, Richard wrote:
In article <44382F7C.5000208 at gmail.com>,
Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> writes:
That's kinda overkill don't ya think?
Nope. :)
Of course, I've got an S/390 and ES/9000 (in various states of
non-workingnes), DASD, terminal controllers, and a 3420 emulator sitting in
the garage at my place.
It's not really all that big, just sorta heavy.
So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe to take care of your
accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac
Speaking
of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. [...]
Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above
in order to get it to talk?
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because
that's accurate :).
Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC. 
5:34 p.m.
On Monday 10 April 2006 13:24, Richard wrote:
In article <44382F7C.5000208 at gmail.com>,
Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> writes:
That's kinda overkill don't ya think?
Nope. :)
Of course, I've got an S/390 and ES/9000 (in various states of
non-workingnes), DASD, terminal controllers, and a 3420 emulator sitting in
the garage at my place.
It's not really all that big, just sorta heavy.
So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe to take care of your
accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing -- http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcac
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCAC --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
Speaking
of 3270 style terminals, I picked up a 3180 terminal. [...]
Does this mean I need to get a token ring setup as you describe above
in order to get it to talk?
If yes, what would I need to get? Assume I know nothing... because
that's accurate :).
Get a mainframe. Or at least something that speaks EBCDIC.
5:38 p.m.
In article <200604101734.37076.pat at computer-refuge.org>,
Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> writes:
So, are you saying that you don't use a mainframe
to take care of your
accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;)
I don't do accounting! :-)
Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for
3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
5:52 p.m.
On Monday 10 April 2006 17:38, Richard wrote:
In article <200604101734.37076.pat at
computer-refuge.org>,
Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> writes:
You don't have bills to pay (accounts payable) or get money from people
(accounts receivable)?
I didn't realize that they had a cash-free society going over there in
Utah or maybe I'd have moved there. :)
Pat
--
Purdue University Research Computing --- http://www.rcac.purdue.edu/
The Computer Refuge --- http://computer-refuge.org
So, are you saying that you don't use a
mainframe to take care of
your accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as
well. ;)
I don't do accounting! :-)
5:57 p.m.
In article <200604101752.15019.pat at computer-refuge.org>,
Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> writes:
I don't do accounting as a software engineer :-).
While the original Mormon settlers were big on collectivism and barter
(partly out of a need for survival as an isolated community), I'm a
free-market capitalist myself!
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
I don't do
accounting! :-)
You don't have bills to pay (accounts payable) or get money from people
(accounts receivable)? 
9:24 p.m.
Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did
they offer for
3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000?
2250 could be attached to an S/360 system.
About 15 years ago I saw some sort of CAD system running on a 3081. I do
not recall the tubes.
There is also the 6361 Fastdraft, an S/1 processor and a third party 3D
vector engine.
William Donzelli
aw288 at osfn.org
9:31 p.m.
In article <Pine.SUN.4.20.0604102120370.2733-100000 at osfn.org>,
William Donzelli <aw288 at osfn.org> writes:
Sweet. Lots of bitsavers material for me to digest.
Was the 5250 graphics capable?
Speaking of
big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for
3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000?
2250 could be attached to an S/360 system. About 15 years ago I saw some sort of CAD system
running on a 3081. I do
not recall the tubes.
Usually the tubes are not the interesting part :-). The graphics
processors are the interesting part. For instance, an Evans &
Sutherland Picture System is a combination of a host interface and a
tube. The tube alone isn't nearly as interesting as the tube with the
interface card. Its nigh impossible to get the tube to do anything
interesting without the card, whereas sometimes you can cobble up the
reverse.
There is also the 6361 Fastdraft, an S/1 processor and
a third party 3D
vector engine.
More stuff to check into, thanks.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
10:09 p.m.
Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did
they offer for
3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000?
Well, just Concurrent with the RS6000 was the Power Visualization System
(PVS) that used multiple i860's (up to 32 in parallel) and HPPI RAID to
do real time volume visualization kinds of things.
Their marketing could've really benefitted if the US had spent a bit more
on Science R&D, like by keeping the Superconducting Supercollider
project going, for example.
John A.
10:36 p.m.
In article <009e01c65d0c$eaec8e40$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>,
"John Allain" <allain at panix.com> writes:
Oooooh. Real-time volume rendering is always fun :-). The first
machine I ever saw that could do it was in 1987 at the NCGA conference
in Philly: the Pixar Image Computer (bet you didn't know Pixar was a
classic HW manufacturer, eh?). This machine was sweet! The Computer
History Museum has one in its collection. I wonder if it works!
Does anyone on the list own the Power Visualization System?
I think I remember seeing this thing at SIGGRAPH. It was the size of
a standing household refrigerator, if memory serves correctly.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
Speaking of
big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for
3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000?
Well, just Concurrent with the RS6000 was the Power Visualization System
(PVS) that used multiple i860's (up to 32 in parallel) and HPPI RAID to
do real time volume visualization kinds of things.
11 Apr
11 Apr
12:22 a.m.
Does anyone on the list own the Power Visualization
System?
Does anyone own a PVS in 2006, period?
Perhaps in a back warehouse in Los Alamos.
(bet you didn't know Pixar was a classic HW
manufacturer, eh?).
There is a Friend I have and infrequent poster to this list who has
one in his Garage.
I think I remember seeing {the PVS} at SIGGRAPH. It
was the size of
a standing household refrigerator, if memory serves correctly.
And White, to assist in the Cool motif.
Thanks for coming by. So whose booths did you work out of?
John A..
10:02 a.m.
In article <007301c65d1f$9925d2c0$5f25fea9 at ibm23xhr06>,
"John Allain" <allain at panix.com> writes:
I haven't tracked viz hardware since the mid 90s... do people just use
piles of pcs now? SGI used to be the stuff, but they may not be in
business for much longer.
Oooooooh. I'm thinking there were only a handfull of these made ever,
so having one is a serious score!
When I was working SIGGRAPH, I worked the Evans & Sutherland booth.
That was early 90s. Now when I attend SIGGRAPH, I don't work anyone's
booth, I just attend :-).
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
Does anyone on
the list own the Power Visualization System?
Does anyone own a PVS in 2006, period? (bet you
didn't know Pixar was a classic HW manufacturer, eh?).
There is a Friend I have and infrequent poster to this list who has
one in his Garage. I think I
remember seeing {the PVS} at SIGGRAPH. It was the size of
a standing household refrigerator, if memory serves correctly.
And White, to assist in the Cool motif.
Thanks for coming by. So whose booths did you work out of?
2:08 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
Speaking of 3D...
Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price...
This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming
and managing the older models for large companies.
Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to
5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody
know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or
loan to me?
John A.
3:01 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
In article <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>,
"John Allain" <allain at panix.com> writes:
Anyway, I'm getting the impression that
there's no way to log in to
5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody
know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or
loan to me?
Ditto!
I've got a Solid Impact R10000 that I haven't powered up yet and I
suspect I'll be facing the same issue. First, I need to get one of
those monitor cable dongle adapter thingies. :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
3:50 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
I broke into mine by booting sash and cat-ing the contents of /etc/passwd to
the console, then ran the encrypted password thru john the ripper. Luckily
the password turned out to be exactly that, so j-t-r took about 0.01 seconds
to dictionary attack it.
The principle, however, is sound :)
On 11/04/06, Richard <legalize at xmission.com> wrote:
In article <002701c65d93$05186ba0$21fe54a6 at ibm23xhr06>,
"John Allain" <allain at panix.com> writes:
--
Pete Edwards
"Prediction is very difficult, especially if it's about the future" - Niels
Bohr
Anyway, I'm getting the impression that
there's no way to log in to
5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody
know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or
loan to me?
Ditto!
I've got a Solid Impact R10000 that I haven't powered up yet and I
suspect I'll be facing the same issue. First, I need to get one of
those monitor cable dongle adapter thingies. :-)
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
14 Apr
14 Apr
4:38 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
Pete Edwards wrote:
I broke into mine by booting sash and cat-ing the
contents of /etc/passwd to
the console, then ran the encrypted password thru john the ripper. Luckily
the password turned out to be exactly that, so j-t-r took about 0.01 seconds
to dictionary attack it.
The principle, however, is sound :)
Pete,
can you expand on what sash is? I know unix, sun, linux, well, but
never have set in
front of an SGI box, and don't recognize what "sash" is. I assume it is
maybe an
acronym for "stand alone shell" but would that come from a boot option
one would
expect to get to from a hard drive boot, or would one have to have access to
a cdrom or other, and boot that, then request the boot up?
Also why not edit directly the /etc/passwd? is there some check file
system similar
to sco's or system v's or /etc/shadow, like sun has that will go
sideways if you remove
a password string from /etc/passwd? Just wondering.
Also, a friend cautioned that these could of type "EFS" and if that is
so, be sure not
to try to mount them on linux EFS, as the type names are the same, the
system are
definitely not.
Jim
4:59 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:38:41 -0700
jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> wrote:
Also, a friend cautioned that these could of type
"EFS" and if that
is so, be sure not
to try to mount them on linux EFS, as the type names are the same,
the system are
definitely not.
I've never had trouble reading any IRIX disks (or install media, for
that matter) formatted with EFS under Linux, unless the filesystem was
already corrupted. I use Linux's EFS support fairly frequently (some
of the IRIX install media are EFS), since I use Linux as a netinstall
server for IRIX. Works fine in 2.4.x and 2.6.x .
-Ryan
5:11 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
Ryan Blair wrote:
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 13:38:41 -0700
jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> wrote:
<snip>
I've never had trouble reading any IRIX disks (or install media, for
that matter) formatted with EFS under Linux, unless the filesystem was
already corrupted. I use Linux's EFS support fairly frequently (some
of the IRIX install media are EFS), since I use Linux as a netinstall
server for IRIX. Works fine in 2.4.x and 2.6.x .
-Ryan
do you mount cdroms on linux, or remove hard drives from an sgi system,
move them to
linux for the netinstall? If you store the data from some source and
serve it up over the
network from a linux system, then it is stored on the linux system with
a linux supported
file type.
if you do what I mentioned above, pull a formated drive from an SGI
system and put it on
a linux system which is on a PC, then there will have to be some
allowance made for the
fact that there is no PC partition table, but just the raw file system
starting at block 0.
whatever is on a cdrom usually requires a different file system driver
than would be used to
access the file system on a hard drive device, or a layer that deals
with partitions, etc
which a different for a cdrom than for a hard disk block device.
similar goes on with
accessing usb sticks as block devices.
5:22 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
On Fri, 14 Apr 2006 14:11:15 -0700
jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> wrote:
do you mount cdroms on linux, or remove hard drives
from an sgi
system, move them to
linux for the netinstall? If you store the data from some source and
serve it up over the
network from a linux system, then it is stored on the linux system
with a linux supported
file type.
I can mount the CDROMs, images of the CDROMs, hard drives ... whatever.
As far as netinstall goes, I either loop-mount the CD images and
NFS-export them, or I mount and copy everything off of them and export
that. I suppose if I had all the install stuff on an EFS-formatted
disk, it wouldn't be much trouble to pull it out of an SGI and mount it.
if you do what I mentioned above, pull a formated
drive from an SGI
system and put it on
a linux system which is on a PC, then there will have to be some
allowance made for the
fact that there is no PC partition table, but just the raw file
system starting at block 0.
Well, Linux also has support for SGI partition tables ... or, you could
toss the mount option seek=x blocks if you know where the partition
you're looking for starts (and you don't have SGI partition table
support compiled into your kernel). This works fine with both CDs and
disks.
whatever is on a cdrom usually requires a different
file system
driver than would be used to
access the file system on a hard drive device, or a layer that deals
with partitions, etc
which a different for a cdrom than for a hard disk block device.
similar goes on with
accessing usb sticks as block devices.
Um ... no? Block device is a block device is a block device. If it's
EFS-formatted, it doesn't make much difference to the Linux EFS support.
Not that I've ever heard of EFS on a USB stick ...
-Ryan
16 Apr
16 Apr
2:56 a.m.
New subject: Ampro Littleboard...
I've got an Ampro Littleboard that I'd like to be able to use a hard
drive with. It's my understanding that while it's got a SCSI host
interface, it needs a controller as well. Does anyone out there know
where I could find a controller for this?
The computer is the Z-80 version and it's in the little "Series 100"
bookshelf case.
tnx.
g.
11 Apr
11 Apr
3:59 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
John Allain wrote:
Speaking of 3D...
Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price...
This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming
and managing the older models for large companies.
Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to
5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody
know an exploit
Hmm, I think Linux can read and write SGI filesystems (and understand SGI
disklabels) these days - in which case dropping the system drive into a nearby
Linux box and mounting the SGI's root partition should sort you out.
Or you can hook the drive up to a Linux box, locate and edit the necessary
disk block by hand; been there, done that before...
cheers
Jules
13 Apr
13 Apr
11:11 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
On Tue, 2006-04-11 at 20:59 +0100, Jules Richardson wrote:
Or you can hook the drive up to a Linux box, locate
and edit the necessary
disk block by hand; been there, done that before...
Quick word of warning: XFS will
not mount on Linux if it was unmounted
uncleanly, and the error message will not say anything to indicate this.
Linux has XFS file checking utilities, though. However, I recommend you
make a bitwise image of the disk before you start running that - it *is*
Linux and you never know. :)
-toresbe :)
11 Apr
11 Apr
5:42 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
John Allain wrote:
Speaking of 3D...
Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price...
This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming
and managing the older models for large companies.
Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to
5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody
know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or
loan to me?
What filesystem does it use? You might be able to boot Linux and alter
he master passwd file.
Peace... Sridhar
17 Apr
17 Apr
1:29 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
On Tue, 11 Apr 2006, Sridhar Ayengar wrote:
John Allain wrote:
IRIX 5.3 would probably be using the 'efs' file system, which is (or was)
supported by Linux. I know I was able to mount and read the IRIX
distribution media on a Linux box a few years ago.
--
Speaking of 3D...
Feeling reminiscent, I picked up am sgi Indigo2 at a fair price...
This is the first sgi I've owned, after various bouts of programming
and managing the older models for large companies.
Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's no way to log in to
5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody
know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or
loan to me?
What filesystem does it use? You might be able to boot Linux and alter he
master passwd file.
11 Apr
11 Apr
6:05 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
John Allain wrote:
Anyway, I'm getting the impression that there's
no way to log in to
5.3 without a password (single mode is even pwded). So, anybody
know an exploit or have an IRIX 5.3 CD that they can sell,copy or
loan to me?
If you get access to the IRIX cd, or a bootable media, you may be able
to interrupt the
install process and mount the hard drive, if you can get the device
names for the hard drive
with root (/etc).
on solaris, you can use the format command to print out a list of the
existing media, and
then exit format without doing anything. I don't know about IRIX.
I have access to world.std.com, which is on a 16 way IRIX system, and
their media
seems to be mounted on /dev/dsk/dks7d5s7 for example. I suspect this is
related to
the driver name, and may be different for your smaller (I assume that
you didnt get
a 16 way server) system.
I could send a request to Barry Shein and see if he or anyone on staff
there could
help unless you have already gotten something from a list observer /
member here.
Jim
7:34 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
In article <443C280C.8050008 at msm.umr.edu>,
jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> writes:
I have access to world.std.com, which is on a 16 way
IRIX system,
and their media seems to be mounted on /dev/dsk/dks7d5s7 for example.
I suspect this is related to the driver name, and may be different for
your smaller (I assume that you didnt get a 16 way server) system.
If memory serves me properly, the numbers in that file name correlate
to the SCSI id of the drive?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
8:19 p.m.
New subject: IRIX 5.3 system: any access?
At 07:34 PM 4/11/2006, Richard wrote:
In article <443C280C.8050008 at msm.umr.edu>,
jim stephens <jwstephens at msm.umr.edu> writes:
Sort of. dks7d5s7 is controller dks7, drive 5, slice (partition) 7.
-Rick
I have access to world.std.com, which is on a 16
way IRIX system,
and their media seems to be mounted on /dev/dsk/dks7d5s7 for example.
I suspect this is related to the driver name, and may be different for
your smaller (I assume that you didnt get a 16 way server) system.
If memory serves me properly, the numbers in that file name correlate
to the SCSI id of the drive?
11:41 p.m.
New subject: New goodies at retroarchive.org
I've added many early DOS versions in self-extracting image format as
well as a number of IBM language compilers for DOS such as Fortran,
Cobol and Pascal.
Sorry it took so bloody long to get the site updated!
g.
12:27 a.m.
Richard wrote:
In article <200604101734.37076.pat at
computer-refuge.org>,
Patrick Finnegan <pat at computer-refuge.org> writes:
Mostly 3D graphics terminals CHANNEL-attached to mainframes. Although,
I think the RT/PC had a 3D option.
Peace... Sridhar
So, are you saying that you don't use a
mainframe to take care of your
accounting?! :) (Unit Record equipment would be acceptable as well. ;)
I don't do accounting! :-)
Speaking of big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for
3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000?
10:02 a.m.
In article <443B301B.6080902 at gmail.com>,
Sridhar Ayengar <ploopster at gmail.com> writes:
Do you have any specific model numbers for "3D graphics terminals"?
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
Speaking of
big IBM boxes... what sort of boxes did they offer for
3D graphics support prior to the RS/6000?
Mostly 3D graphics terminals CHANNEL-attached to mainframes. Although,
I think the RT/PC had a 3D option. 
10 Apr
10 Apr
8:42 p.m.
Don't forget that the AS/400/iSeries is an EBCDIC too. I know I've used
3270 data streams via telnet to one. I don't know how one would use a
3270 style terminal though. Then again, on an AS/400 you'd want 5250.
(Over twinax if you are hardcore.)
11 Apr
11 Apr
12:31 a.m.
Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Don't forget that the AS/400/iSeries is an EBCDIC too. I know I've used
3270 data streams via telnet to one. I don't know how one would use a
3270 style terminal though. Then again, on an AS/400 you'd want 5250.
(Over twinax if you are hardcore.)
Twinax. *There's* a fun connector to crimp. What a pain.
Peace... Sridhar
7 Apr
7 Apr
5:31 p.m.
Jay West wrote:
I thought I'd post a few pictures of my IBM
emulation setup. While
it's not complete, it is functioning.
excellent photos of this. Nothing is quite as nice as a VM 370 login
logo to those who first saw it on
"real" hardware.
Do you have any more bits of data on the token ring setup that you could
share? I have been collecting
bits and pieces to use to do the same, including the token ring stuff,
3174, etc, but am not sure if I have
what I need, expecially in the 3174.
I worked mostly on the big 3174's like are channel attached, and am not
familiar with the memory
options, or the token ring setup.
If there is a yell about this being boring to others, I'm glad to take
it to a hercules group, or offline.
I also have 3290s but doubt if they can be livened up.
thanks
Jim
6:21 p.m.
Jim wrote...
Do you have any more bits of data on the token ring
setup that you could
share? I have been collecting
bits and pieces to use to do the same, including the token ring stuff,
3174, etc, but am not sure if I have
what I need, expecially in the 3174.
Yeah, I've recently been through it.
Wasn't documented really, so I did a
lot of floundering. Configuring the 3174 was a nightmare for me, as I was
totally new to it. I found it to be obtuse and complex. One could argue I
find all things that way, so who knows.
You need:
A coax term such as a 3278, 3279, 3179, etc. I am not up on this, but it
appears there are a lot of similar terminals that aren't compatible.
A 3174. There are many models. You need a model that supports either
ethernet (easy & direct, but expensive), or token ring (cheap, convoluted).
If you get one with ethernet support, you just plug it into an ethernet hub
along with your hercules-running-PC, and you're done. But the ethernet ones
are really steep on the $$$ side. So I went with token ring. Mainly because
3174's with token ring are dirt cheap, but also, I liked the "retro factor"
of token ring, and figured there may be other token ring devices I wanted to
connect. It was authentic for the rest of the setup to me :) The catch is,
no matter what, your 3174 must support config C, which denotes dual floppy
drives (not single) and 8mb or more of ram (many 3174's have 2mb). I believe
the 3174 that meets all this is 3174-63R. You can get a -61R and then
upgrade the floppy and ram and add token ring (that's what I did)
effectively making it a -63R. Why all the hardware requirements? Because you
need TN3270 support, and that is in software release C6.4. Older releases
apparently don't support TN3270. If you do this, give the guys at
lordsnet.com a call. They were VERY collector-friendly (awesomely cheap to
me).
Advice - lordsnet.com can help you with microcode disks for the 3174. You
can also call IBM direct and get a backup set at no cost.
If you went the token ring route, you need a token ring card for your PC.
Watch out for this, Linux and Freebsd support for token ring is really
really spotty. Only a handful of cards supported and lots of pitfalls with
each one. For freebsd, use olicom. It mostly works out of the box. For
Linux, use Madge. There are many olicoms freebsd doesn't support, and many
madge's that don't work on linux. Just certain models of each. I think you
can create a "crossover" cable to connect the two token ring db9 ports,
saving you a hub. However, I wasn't sure of that, wanted the retro type-1
ports, so I went with a 8228 MAU and type-1 cables. You could also go with
the RJ45 style token ring cables and hubs (or crossover).
You'll need a lot of patience to configure the 3174. I found it a real
nightmare to get my head around and get it configured right. If you want to
do this, call me while the scoop is still in my head :)
I also have 3290s but doubt if they can be livened up.
I really wish I had the space and power for a 4331, 4341, or maybe 4381. But
I don't :)
Jay
7:25 p.m.
Jay West wrote:
If you went the token ring route, you need a token
ring card for your
PC. Watch out for this, Linux and Freebsd support for token ring is
really really spotty. Only a handful of cards supported and lots of
pitfalls with each one. For freebsd, use olicom. It mostly works out of
the box. For Linux, use Madge. There are many olicoms freebsd doesn't
support, and many madge's that don't work on linux. Just certain models
of each. I think you can create a "crossover" cable to connect the two
token ring db9 ports, saving you a hub. However, I wasn't sure of that,
wanted the retro type-1 ports, so I went with a 8228 MAU and type-1
cables. You could also go with the RJ45 style token ring cables and hubs
(or crossover).
A short word here - IBM-branded PCI token ring adapters work
out-of-the-box in Linux, with the olympic driver. The IBM 4/16 PCMCIA
card also works with no major hassle, except (ironically) on ThinkPads.
Then you have to make an address exclusion in the PCMCIA config files.
Olicom's PCMCIA adapters didn't work at all in Linux through v2.2 and
v2.4. Some ISA adapters work in some systems, but configuration is a
nightmare.
I do a lot of Linux training for IBM, and it's amazing how many of
their US campuses waited till 2003-2004 to move to ethernet.
Doc
7:48 p.m.
Doc wrote...
A short word here - IBM-branded PCI token ring
adapters work
out-of-the-box in Linux, with the olympic driver.
Not what I found. "IBM
Branded" could mean one of several different
families, and only certain models of certain families are supported. In
addition, I found some adapters that were supported at one time, but are
certainly not supported on more current releases (the drivers certainly
wouldn't compile as is, and needed a severe amount of handwork to bring them
up to date). Not to mention token ring support in more recent linux kernels
has been all but dropped, the token ring project hasn't been updated in
ages... etc. (2003?).
Olicom's PCMCIA adapters didn't work at all
in Linux through v2.2 and
v2.4. Some ISA adapters work in some systems, but configuration is a
nightmare.
Yeah, they did. I hacked up an old version of the olicom drivers to make
it
work on my kernel. Yes, it was a complete nightmare.
Example... a Madge 16/4 card.... You'd think this was just one card. Nope.
There are subtle variations in the card, some are supported and some aren't.
Jay
8 Apr
8 Apr
5:57 p.m.
Jay West wrote:
Doc wrote...
NetBSD supports the TROPIC chips. It actually works fairly well.
Peace... Sridhar
A short word here - IBM-branded PCI token ring
adapters work
out-of-the-box in Linux, with the olympic driver.
Not what I found. "IBM
Branded" could mean one of several different
families, and only certain models of certain families are supported. In
addition, I found some adapters that were supported at one time, but are
certainly not supported on more current releases (the drivers certainly
wouldn't compile as is, and needed a severe amount of handwork to bring
them up to date). Not to mention token ring support in more recent linux
kernels has been all but dropped, the token ring project hasn't been
updated in ages... etc. (2003?).
7 Apr
7 Apr
11:22 p.m.
So is it hopeless that I'll ever see this terminal up and going?
There was quite a bit of information in this discussion so far, but
not anything telling me exactly what I would need to do in order to
talk to this terminal through the 800-pound-market-gorilla-that-shall-
not-be-named-because-we're-snooty :-).
Remember, I know nothing about IBM boxes or equipment.
--
"The Direct3D Graphics Pipeline"-- code samples, sample chapter, FAQ:
<http://www.xmission.com/~legalize/book/>
Pilgrimage: Utah's annual demoparty
<http://pilgrimage.scene.org>
8 Apr
8 Apr
12:44 a.m.
Richard wrote:
So is it hopeless that I'll ever see this terminal
up and going?
There was quite a bit of information in this discussion so far, but
not anything telling me exactly what I would need to do in order to
talk to this terminal through the 800-pound-market-gorilla-that-shall-
not-be-named-because-we're-snooty :-).
Remember, I know nothing about IBM boxes or equipment.
short answer is that you have a smart crt, keyboard and no smarts. you
have to do it
the IBM way with that terminal. the only thing you might be able to do
short of that
with an IBM terminal is if it is twinax. Baby 36's are like large AT's
about the size
of two of them stacked on on another and stood on edge. (in fact one I
had looked
like an at, and not the ones that required an AT to support it).
Jay's pile is one alternative to light it up, but the top of that
learing curve is a long
way from your current experience level obviously is with IBM gear, and may
not be interesting. It would not cost you a lot in hardware though, in
money terms.
Jim
1:06 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is
there a commercial product available?
tnx!
g.
1:46 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
On 4/8/2006 at 10:06 AM Gene Buckle wrote:
Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC
via USB? Is
there a commercial product available?
Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't think there's a
commercial product out there--if there is, I'd like to know about it.
Cheers,
Chuck
5:37 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Is there a way
to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is
there a commercial product available?
Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't
think there's a commercial product out there--if there is,
I'd like to know about it.
5:56 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
There are indeed commercial products, here are two, one is expensive,
one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets.
Joe Heck
http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0188&dept=lc…
http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0174&dept=lc…
Gene Buckle wrote:
Rats.
Thanks for the reply.
g.
Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC
via USB? Is
there a commercial product available?
Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't
think there's a commercial product out there--if there is,
I'd like to know about it.
6:13 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
I am sort-of also interested in a USB 5 1/4" floppy drive case.
I doubt if the two shown links will actually enable the connection of a *5 1/4"*
floppy drive.
- Henk, PA8PDP.
________________________________
Van: cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org namens joe heck
Verzonden: za 08-04-2006 23:56
Aan: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Onderwerp: Re: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
There are indeed commercial products, here are two, one is expensive,
one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets.
Joe Heck
http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0188&dept=lc…
http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0174&dept=lc…
Gene Buckle wrote:
Rats.
Thanks for the reply.
g.
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If you have received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately by
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Thank you for your cooperation.
Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC
via USB? Is
there a commercial product available?
Yes, if you work up the circuit design yourself. I don't
think there's a commercial product out there--if there is,
I'd like to know about it.
7 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
joe heck wrote:
There are indeed commercial products, here are two,
one is expensive,
one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets.
Joe Heck
http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0188&dept=lc…
http://www.cyberguys.com/templates/searchdetail.asp?T1=163+0174&dept=lc…
Those look like they are designed for IDE type devices, not 5.25" floppy
drives. I assumed that the OP wanted 5.25 drives on USB.
8:13 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
On 4/8/2006 at 6:00 PM Michael B. Brutman wrote:
Those look like they are designed for IDE type devices,
not 5.25" floppy
drives. I assumed that the OP wanted 5.25 drives on USB.
That's what I gathered.
Another possibility is a Microsolutions Backpack parallel port floppy. I
can just about guarantee that it requires a legacy parallel port at the
very minimum; from what I know of the drive (which is qutie a bit), a
USB-to-parallel port adapter won't work.
When I originally spoke with the folks at Microsolutions, they were
unwilling to release any programming information about the drive. I wsa
forced to reverse-engineer their drivers to get support for things like
CP/M single-density diskettes, etc. Basically, their box is an NS 8477 FDC
with a microcontroller and about 8K of RAM. You can get a 3.5" backpack
floppy and use it (with cable adapter) on a 5.25" drive--I believe I even
noticed that they bring the selects out for two drives, so you could even
use it with a combo drive.
I've got an older Rancho Technology Floppy-to-parallel board. I don't have
programming information for it, but that might be another possibility.
Cheers,
Chuck
9 Apr
9 Apr
1:18 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
joe heck wrote:
There are indeed commercial products, here are two,
one is expensive,
one half-expensive. I've bought similar for $30 at computer swap meets.
Joe Heck
I wasn't clear Joe, sorry. I was referring to a 5-1/4" floppy drive not
an IDE device.
tnx.
g.
8 Apr
8 Apr
8:25 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Is there a way
to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular PC via USB? Is
there a commercial product available?
Yes, if you work up the circuit design
yourself. I don't think
there's a commercial product out there--if there is, I'd like to know
about it. 
8:43 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
der Mouse wrote:
Surely this depends on what the 5?" drive's interface is? I'm sure
I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that
would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, if
the drive you want to use has the matching interface.
Exactly. I have a USB<->IDE i/f here that I use for machines
that *don't* have SCSI adapters (in which case, I just use
an external SCSI drive)
Is there a way to connect a 5-1/4 drive to a regular
PC via USB? Is
there a commercial product available?
Yes, if you work up the circuit design
yourself. I don't think
there's a commercial product out there--if there is, I'd like to know
about it. 
8:46 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
der Mouse wrote:
Surely this depends on what the 5?" drive's
interface is? I'm sure
I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that
would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, if
the drive you want to use has the matching interface.
Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI
interface?
8:50 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Surely this
depends on what the 5?" drive's interface is? I'm sure
I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that
would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case,
if the drive you want to use has the matching interface.
Have you seen a
5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI
interface?
8:56 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Fred Cisin wrote:
der Mouse wrote:
Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or 8")?
Surely this depends on what the 5?"
drive's interface is? I'm sure
I've seen ads for interface boxes for IDE, and probably SCSI, that
would require at most a transplant of the adapter into a 5?" case, if
the drive you want to use has the matching interface.
Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI
interface?
9:04 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Have you seen
a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or
SCSI interface?
Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or 8")?
9:11 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
> Have you seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy
drive lately with an IDE or SCSI
> interface?
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote:
Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or
8")?
There are lots of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives.
There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives
can do 1.4M)
But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support
5.25" or 8" drives.
Howzbout:
take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use
the PC itself as a slave device controller.
I don't recall the name of it, but there was a small PC with a SCSI port
and a 5.25" drive, using the PC as a slave device controller, that was
MARKETED as a "DRIVE" that could "let Macs read PC and CP/M
diskettes".
By THAT definition, I've seen lots of RS232 floppy drives :-)
9:51 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Fred Cisin wrote:
If they use a conventional floppy within, the 5" and 3.5" use
nearly identical signals. Problem would be what assumptions
the firmware therein makes...
> Have you
seen a 5.25" (or 8") floppy drive lately with an IDE or SCSI
> interface?
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote:
Aren't SPARC floppies SCSI (though not 5 or
8")?
There are lots of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives.
There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives
can do 1.4M)
But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support
5.25" or 8" drives. Howzbout:
take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use
the PC itself as a slave device controller.
Or, just write your media on the PC and skip the interface altogether
:> (that's how I handle 8")
I don't recall the name of it, but there was a
small PC with a SCSI port
and a 5.25" drive, using the PC as a slave device controller, that was
MARKETED as a "DRIVE" that could "let Macs read PC and CP/M
diskettes".
By THAT definition, I've seen lots of RS232 floppy drives :-)
You can *buy* a SCSI<->floppy interface if you really want to spend
a lot of money on that. It just seems like a huge waste of $$$
(though I am sure there are cases where it might be desirable/needed)
10:04 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote:
I don't know of ANY USB nor SCSI 3.5" drives that DO use a
"conventional"
floppy within.
The common USB drives do NOT convert USB to anything even
vaguely resembling SA400.
The original requestor asked about an external USB or SCSI 5.25".
That MIGHT mean that he wants to hang the external drive on something
not completely PC compatible (such as a Mac, or a Dell laptop)
There are lots
of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives.
There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives
can do 1.4M)
But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support
5.25" or 8" drives.
If they use a conventional floppy within, the 5" and 3.5" use
nearly identical signals. Problem would be what assumptions
the firmware therein makes...
Let's solve the hardware problem first, THEN worry about the firmware.
Howzbout:
take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use
the PC itself as a slave device controller.
Or, just write your media on the PC
and skip the interface altogether
:> (that's how I handle 8") You can *buy* a SCSI<->floppy interface if you
really want to spend
a lot of money on that. It just seems like a huge waste of $$$
(though I am sure there are cases where it might be desirable/needed)
I've had SCSI <-> ST506/412.
Do you know a source for a SCSI <-> SA400/800 ?
7:58 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
I've had SCSI <-> ST506/412.
Do you know a source for a SCSI <-> SA400/800 ?
Some varients of the Omti 5000 boards had a floppy controller. There was
one that was SCSI to ST412 _and_ floppy, one that also had a QIC02 interface.
These boards were used in the PERQ 3a (AGW3300), and in Torch XXX/Quad-X
machines with ST412 hard drives. Torch workstations with SCSI hard drives
had a thing called a Manta board. This was a SCSI-floppy controller.
Don't ask me where to find a spare one, though.
-tony
10 Apr
10 Apr
1:48 a.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
From: "Tony Duell" >
Some varients of the Omti 5000 boards had a floppy
controller. There was
one that was SCSI to ST412 _and_ floppy, one that also had a QIC02
interface.
There is also the OMTI 7250, which is SCSI to floppies (4!) and some
harddrive (I cant remember which ones from the top of my head).
It came together with an OMTI 512, which is 8-bit IDE.
Sadly enough, I dont have the foggiest idea regarding the drivers, I got
them delivered with a complete set of software
These boards were used in the PERQ 3a (AGW3300), and
in Torch XXX/Quad-X
machines with ST412 hard drives.
The 512/7250 combination was used in EMS' (Belgium) media conversion systems
Nico
8 Apr
8 Apr
10:51 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Believe it or not, Teac DID list a 5.25" SCSI drive in its catalog. I
could dig for it, but I doubt that many were made.
I don't know what the OP wanted to do with the 5.25" (let's assume) floppy.
But most SCSI floppies (like the FD-55S) are dumb as a stump. They have
sector addressing, etc. all nicely hardwired in. On most, you can change
the block size, but that's it. That's certainly the case with my old Brier
Tech. 20 MB SCSI floppy/floptical. It'd be okay for DOS/*nix stuff, but
tough luck on those Osborne I floppies.
Maybe the OP was talking about a 5.25" MFM or ESDI drive? OMTI made some
cards that could get you to SCSI from those (as well as floppy to SCSI).
But that was a long time ago (I've got a couple of those controllers) and
the SCSI spoken was the very early Apple Mac variety. I used one with some
glue to provide an Atari 540ST with an MFM hard drive via the ACSI "almost
SCSI" interface long ago.
Cheers,
Chuck
9 Apr
9 Apr
1:26 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Chuck Guzis wrote:
Believe it or not, Teac DID list a 5.25" SCSI
drive in its catalog. I
could dig for it, but I doubt that many were made.
I don't know what the OP wanted to do with the 5.25" (let's assume) floppy.
But most SCSI floppies (like the FD-55S) are dumb as a stump. They have
sector addressing, etc. all nicely hardwired in. On most, you can change
the block size, but that's it. That's certainly the case with my old Brier
Tech. 20 MB SCSI floppy/floptical. It'd be okay for DOS/*nix stuff, but
tough luck on those Osborne I floppies.
I have to apologize to you all, I wasn't specific enough. The
discussion has been a great read though. :)
I've got a PC with a limited space case. They didn't even include room
for a 3-1/2" floppy drive in it. I'd like to be able to read DOS and
non-native format floppy disks with this machine as part of doing an
update to the retroarchive.org site. Instead of building a second
machine, I'd like to be able to find a way to interface a Teac FD-55GFR
via USB.
Barring that, I'd like to know where I can find a desktop ATX form
factor case that's got bays deep enough for a standard sized floppy drive.
Thanks all!
g.
2:03 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
On 4/9/2006 at 10:26 AM Gene Buckle wrote:
Forget USB (and SCSI) for non-native formats. Both types assume a lot
about the diskette format, including sector size, numbering and numbers of
sectors per track.
Barring that, I'd like to know where I can find a
desktop ATX form
factor case that's got bays deep enough for a standard sized floppy drive.
That shouldn't be hard at all. Any box that will hold two CD-ROM drives
will hold a standard half-height floppy. If what you have is a
full-height floppy, you may need to get creative with your tools to get one
to fit in 2 half-height slots. But it can be done.
Personally, what I'd do is find an older 386--Pentium minitower box. Drop
a network card in it and use it to do your data transfers. You don't need
any kind of speed for diskette handling. The older systems with
through-hole IC mounting on the PCBs tend to be very reliable.
Cheers,
Chuck
8 Apr
8 Apr
10:52 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Rumor has it that Fred Cisin may have mentioned these words:
I don't know of ANY USB nor SCSI 3.5" drives
that DO use a "conventional"
floppy within.
what about the DEC SCSI bridgeboard for (at least) the VaxStation/VaxServer
3100 series machines? I'm *almost* positive that it takes a standard
(1.44IBMeg) 3.5" floppy drive - now whether that can be kludged to handle a
5.25" drive, I can't say - I don't know if the bridgeboard *expects* an
1.44IBMeg drive at those datarates...
The common USB drives do NOT convert USB to anything
even
vaguely resembling SA400.
The more I've been getting back into my CoCo shiznit, I've been wondering
about the Toshiba PCMCIA floppy drive - Anyone know if that uses a "normal"
floppy chipset that could be kluged to handle a 5.25" drive?
I've been diddling with DriveWire for the CoCo, running it thru a
USB->RS232 adapter (my Fujitsu Lifebook doesn't have normal
serial/parallel/floppy ports - heck, even the replaceable internal Floppy
drive is USB... (tho if it wasn't, I'd assume it would be IDE instead of
Floppy, as that would still save them a bit on the chipset to not implement
that separately...)
Google stumbled me across this:
http://www.galaxystor.com/SCSI_Floppy_Drive.htm
Take this with a grain of salt, and prolly a fat pocketbook, but the PDF
shows a picture of the circuit and it has a 34-pin connector... and the PDF
does mention something about 1.2IBMeg...
Ah well, maybe the truth *is* out there... ;-) [[ This from a guy who's
only watched 2 episodes of the X-files...]]
Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger
--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- SysAdmin, Iceberg Computers
zmerch at 30below.com
What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????
11:06 p.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
Fred Cisin wrote:
*Some* workstation (I thought it was SPARCs) had SCSI floppies.
I also have a design for a SCSI<->4 floppy controller
that I did >15 years ago. I can try to dig up the schematics
and sources for it. But, I sspect many of the componentss
that it used are no longer available (?). I know getting
the 647180's as "engineering samples" was a real problem;
and I am not sure the 5380 (5830?) is even manufactured any
more... I was tickled that the PCB was exactly the size
of a 5" floppy (though it was designed for 8" media
originally -- a few extra wires in the diskette interface
cable and support for the "door lock", IIRC)
By far, the easiest thing to do would be a USB<->floppy
nowadays... microcontroller + floppy controller/COMBO
(unless you want to pinch pennies and do an Apple style
floppy controller implemented in software...)
I'll see if I can find my drawing set and any paperwork
(contractual obligations) governing it.
--don
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Don Y wrote:
I don't know of ANY USB nor SCSI 3.5" drives that DO use a
"conventional"
floppy within.
I don't know. I only use a USB *disk* -- and even then, only
if I don't have a SCSI HA in the machine I am moving to/from.
There are
lots of USB 3.5" 1.4M drives.
There are several SCSI 3.5" drives (most Floptical (usually SCSI) drives
can do 1.4M)
But I don't know of any of those that can be easily modified to support
5.25" or 8" drives.
If they use a conventional floppy within, the
5" and 3.5" use
nearly identical signals. The common USB drives do NOT convert USB to anything
even
vaguely resembling SA400.
The original requestor asked about an external USB or SCSI 5.25".
That MIGHT mean that he wants to hang the external drive on something
not completely PC compatible (such as a Mac, or a Dell laptop)
And I was suggesting handling the media on another machine
that *can* handle it. I don't have DLT's or MO's on all
my machines -- when I need to access this type of medium,
I go to a machine that *has*! :-/
Problem would be what assumptions
the firmware therein makes...
Let's solve the hardware problem first, THEN worry about the firmware.
Howzbout:
take a small PC, with either USB or SCSI, with appropriate drives, and use
the PC itself as a slave device controller.
Or, just write your media on the PC
and skip the interface altogether
:> (that's how I handle 8") You can *buy*
a SCSI<->floppy interface if you really want to spend
a lot of money on that. It just seems like a huge waste of $$$
(though I am sure there are cases where it might be desirable/needed)
I've had SCSI <-> ST506/412.
Do you know a source for a SCSI <-> SA400/800 ? 
9 Apr
9 Apr
2:13 a.m.
New subject: External enclosure for 5-1/4 drive...
I have been selling SCSI to Floppy controllers on epay over the last
couple of years. I think I have one left. $10 shipped USA, sealed bag.
It was originally set up for 5 1/4 but I am sure useful with 3 1/2s.
They were going in the BIIN conputer which was a joint project of
intel and Siemens in the late 1980s. I got a bunch when we purchased
their left over inventory in the early 1990s.
Based on the NCR chip.
Here is a reference to my last one I sold on ebay.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1247&item=87…
Sale number 8758879883
--
Paxton Hoag
Astoria, OR
USA
5:43 p.m.
Jay West wrote:
I thought I'd post a few pictures of my IBM
emulation setup. While it's
not complete, it is functioning.
There is a PC box running unix with the hercules emulator on it. This
box has RJ45 ethernet to wireless for the home network. Also a temporary
PC monitor & keyboard (to be replaced with a rackmount 1U lcd/kbd unit
soon as I can find one cheap). Of course, it's just not the same unless
you're running a real IBM 3270 style terminal... so... the PC also has a
token ring card that is connected to a 8223 MAU via type 1 cables. Also
connected to the 8223 is an IBM 3174 establishment controller (dual
floppies, 9mb ram, token ring - config C). Then connected to the 3174 is
an IBM 3197 color display station. Yup, I know it's been done before,
but I wanted to do it too :)
I'm still working on the code that lets my real HP2000/Access TimeShared
BASIC submit COBOL, FTN, BAL, PL/1, etc. jobs to the emulated IBM 370
setup and get it's output and/or datasets back to the HP. Fun stuff.
I'm also going to try and set up a printer on the 3174 at some point as
well. I had a nice rack picked out for this hercules setup, but decided
on a different rack. Next step is to get all the stuff you see in the
pics rackmounted along with 1/2 tape drive & add SCSI controller to the
herc PC.
Anyways, pictures can be seen at : http://www.ezwind.net/jwest/ibm/
MOST of the pics are clear this time :)
Nice setup!
Peace... Sridhar
6705
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