29 Jul
2016
29 Jul
'16
6:08 p.m.
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers
that might come in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?
Anyone have experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS
available? How do you get an OS onto this system?
29 Jul
29 Jul
6:16 p.m.
Hi Doug,
I've used an SCSI2SD v5 in a Symbolics XL1201 as both CD-ROM and 1280-byte sector Hard
Drive mode successfully. I don't know anything about a MicroVax II, but I would be
happy to tell you what I know of the SCSI2SD. (I've actually put several in one
computer simultaneously.)
Cheers,
Doug
On Jul 29, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have
experience with this?
6:30 p.m.
On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but
no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that might come
in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have
experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How
do you get an OS onto this system?
The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist licenses. The
OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program. If you add a SCSI adapter, you can
hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up to either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had
v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I still do, if it will boot).
Ultrix would also be available.
What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a PDP-11 once I
got a better VAX.
I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like to put one on
one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still work. It?s been years since
I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
Zane
7:30 p.m.
On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2 off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a MicroVax II with
16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. You?ll need a
DELQA.
You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary to an SD
card. i?ve taken images both ways without problems. Alternately if you get a DELQA, you
can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable disk that way.
Jerry
On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but
no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that might come
in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have
experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How
do you get an OS onto this system?
The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist licenses. The
OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program. If you add a SCSI adapter, you can
hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up to either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had
v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I still do, if it will boot).
Ultrix would also be available.
What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a PDP-11 once I
got a better VAX.
I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like to put one on
one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still work. It?s been years since
I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
30 Jul
30 Jul
8:26 a.m.
On 7/29/2016 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at
aracnet.com> wrote:
I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2 off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a MicroVax
II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. You?ll need
a DELQA.
You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary to an SD
card. i?ve taken images both ways without problems. Alternately if you get a DELQA, you
can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable disk that way.
Jerry
That is awfully good news for me. How did you format the SD card? What
kind of drive was it emulating?
I don't have 16 Mb, but 5 Mb. I understand the DEQNA was not supported
in VMS 5, should've kept the one I had.
Doug
On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but
no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that might come
in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have
experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How
do you get an OS onto this system?
The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS
v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist licenses. The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist
program. If you add a SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up
to either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I
still do, if it will boot).
Ultrix would also be available.
What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a PDP-11 once I
got a better VAX.
I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like to put one on
one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still work. It?s been years since
I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
9:06 a.m.
On Jul 30, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
On 7/29/2016 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
I use a UC07 controller and it presents the SD/SCS2SD as a MSCP drive. It doesn?t matter
what type of drive I label the drive using
the Emulex built it utilities (RA81, RA92..). VMS sees all the space the SCSI2SD adapter
presents. The SD is
is a block level device and can be written directly to. No further (lower level)
formatting is necessary.
<!-- ********************************************************
Drive geometry settings.
********************************************************* -->
<scsiSectors>7603200</scsiSectors>
<bytesPerSector>512</bytesPerSector>
<sectorsPerTrack>63</sectorsPerTrack>
<headsPerCylinder>255</headsPerCylinder>
<!-- ********************************************************
Drive identification information. The SCSI2SD doesn't
care what these are set to. Use these strings to trick a OS
thinking a specific hard drive model is attached.
********************************************************* -->
<!-- 8 character vendor string -->
<!-- For Apple HD SC Setup/Drive Setup, use ' SEAGATE' -->
<vendor>DEC </vendor>
<!-- 16 character produce identifier -->
<!-- For Apple HD SC Setup/Drive Setup, use ' ST225N' -->
<prodId>RA92 </prodId>
<!-- 4 character product revision number -->
<!-- For Apple HD SC Setup/Drive Setup, use '1.0 ' -->
<revision>4.30</revision>
<!-- 16 character serial number -->
<serial>VAX50001 </serial>
Start off by getting the Hobbyist License. When you sign up you get access to a VMS 7.3
distribution Iso.
Then you need to sort out your install method. Either burn the ISO and try to boot it or
go
the emulation route.
Jerry
On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy
<healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2 off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a MicroVax
II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. You?ll need
a DELQA.
You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary to an SD
card. i?ve taken images both ways without problems. Alternately if you get a DELQA, you
can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable disk that way.
Jerry
That is awfully good news for me. How did you format the SD card? What kind of drive
was it emulating?
I don't have 16 Mb, but 5 Mb. I understand the DEQNA was not supported in VMS 5,
should've kept the one I had.
On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but
no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that might come
in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have
experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How
do you get an OS onto this system?
The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS
v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist licenses. The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist
program. If you add a SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up
to either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I
still do, if it will boot).
Ultrix would also be available.
What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a PDP-11 once I
got a better VAX.
I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like to put one on
one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still work. It?s been years since
I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
8:50 a.m.
On Jul 29, 2016, at 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at
ieee.org> wrote:
...
I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2 off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a MicroVax II with
16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. You?ll need a DELQA.
Yes, VMS stopped supporting the QNA at some point because, even after 12 ECOs, it could
not be made to work properly. If I remember right, the issues showed up mostly in
clusters; DECnet didn't mind so much. If all you can get is a QNA, you either need a
sufficiently old version of VMS, or an OS that is more forgiving of bogus hardware.
paul
8:56 a.m.
On 7/30/2016 11:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
If I can get it up and running without networking that would be
acceptable. I'm just interested in seeing it running again.
Doug
On Jul 29,
2016, at 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss <jsw at ieee.org> wrote:
...
I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2 off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a MicroVax II with
16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. You?ll need a DELQA.
Yes, VMS stopped supporting the QNA at some point because, even after 12 ECOs, it
could not be made to work properly. If I remember right, the issues showed up mostly in
clusters; DECnet didn't mind so much. If all you can get is a QNA, you either need a
sufficiently old version of VMS, or an OS that is more forgiving of bogus hardware.
paul
6:25 p.m.
New subject: DEQNA and VMS 5, was Re: MicroVax II
On 07/29/2016 19:30, Jerry Weiss wrote:
Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version.
You?ll need a DELQA.
On 07/30/2016 08:50, Paul Koning wrote:
Yes, VMS stopped supporting the QNA at some point because, even
after 12 ECOs, it could not be made to work properly. If I
remember right, the issues showed up mostly in clusters; DECnet
didn't mind so much.
The DEQNA was deprecated and for good reason, though you could still use
it with many if not most versions of VMS 5.x. And as Paul points out if
you're using it for lighter duty, or if it's all you've got, you might
as well give it a shot.
I was working at MIT in '90-91 and one of the labs (LIDS, I believe) had
a cluster of VAXstation 2000s being served by a MicroVAX II. The
VAXstations may have had a small local disk, but they were all clustered
with if not booting from the MVII.
The MVII had a DEQNA, which I discovered meant that when I was doing
I-forget-what for them and brought the cluster back up, I had to
sequence the booting of the VAXstations. If I booted two of them too
close together, the MVII would crash.
But it did work, if you'll accept that caveat as "working," and by that
time if they were still running (Micro)VMS 4.x it would have stood out.
I'm sure I did tell them to get a DELQA, preferably a DELQA-YM, but many
of the labs I supported were running on a shoestring, and indentured
graduate students to reboot as needed were often cheaper than new
hardware...
--S.
6:34 p.m.
New subject: DEQNA and VMS 5, was Re: MicroVax II
On 7/30/2016 9:25 PM, Steven M Jones wrote:
On 07/29/2016 19:30, Jerry Weiss wrote:
I remember purchasing a DELQA in the late 1980's or early 90's and it
was $2,500. Wow! I understand why you group didn't get one.
When it was delivered I took it out of the box and looked at it and
thought that DEC was really gouging us.
Doug
Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either
version.
You?ll need a DELQA.
On 07/30/2016 08:50, Paul Koning wrote:
Yes, VMS stopped supporting the QNA at some point
because, even
after 12 ECOs, it could not be made to work properly. If I
remember right, the issues showed up mostly in clusters; DECnet
didn't mind so much.
The DEQNA was deprecated and for good reason, though you could still use
it with many if not most versions of VMS 5.x. And as Paul points out if
you're using it for lighter duty, or if it's all you've got, you might
as well give it a shot.
I was working at MIT in '90-91 and one of the labs (LIDS, I believe) had
a cluster of VAXstation 2000s being served by a MicroVAX II. The
VAXstations may have had a small local disk, but they were all clustered
with if not booting from the MVII.
The MVII had a DEQNA, which I discovered meant that when I was doing
I-forget-what for them and brought the cluster back up, I had to
sequence the booting of the VAXstations. If I booted two of them too
close together, the MVII would crash.
But it did work, if you'll accept that caveat as "working," and by that
time if they were still running (Micro)VMS 4.x it would have stood out.
I'm sure I did tell them to get a DELQA, preferably a DELQA-YM, but many
of the labs I supported were running on a shoestring, and indentured
graduate students to reboot as needed were often cheaper than new
hardware...
--S.
1 Aug
1 Aug
7:58 p.m.
On 7/29/2016 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy <healyzh at
aracnet.com> wrote:
I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2 off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a MicroVax
II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. You?ll need
a DELQA.
You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary to an SD
card. i?ve taken images both ways without problems. Alternately if you get a DELQA, you
can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable disk that way.
Jerry
The MVII I have has no network card so I may have to prepare the SD card
using an emulator. I waiting for the SCSI2SD adapter and the Hobbyist
License access at this point.
Doug
On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but
no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that might come
in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have
experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How
do you get an OS onto this system?
The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS
v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist licenses. The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist
program. If you add a SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up
to either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I
still do, if it will boot).
Ultrix would also be available.
What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a PDP-11 once I
got a better VAX.
I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like to put one on
one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still work. It?s been years since
I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
29 Jul
29 Jul
8:15 p.m.
On 30 July 2016 at 02:30 Zane Healy <healyzh at aracnet.com> wrote:
On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers
that might come in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?
Anyone have experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS
available? How do you get an OS onto this system?
The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist
licenses. The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program. If you add a
SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up to either
v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I
still do, if it will boot).
Ultrix would also be available.
What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to
a PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.
I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like
to put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still
work. It?s been years since I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
Zane
30 Jul
30 Jul
8:19 a.m.
On 7/29/2016 9:30 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
I have a couple of Viking (TD Systems) scsi controllers which is what I
am thinking of using. I have some S-Box SCSI controllers then may come
in handy.
I like the idea of VMS 5.5 just to restore the system back to its former
glory.
Doug
On Jul 29,
2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but
no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that might come
in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration? Anyone have
experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How
do you get an OS onto this system?
The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS
v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist licenses. The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist
program. If you add a SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up
to either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I
still do, if it will boot).
Ultrix would also be available.
What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a PDP-11 once I
got a better VAX.
I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I?d really like to put one on
one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233?s. Hopefully they?ll still work. It?s been years since
I?ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
Zane
8:55 a.m.
On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:19 AM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I have a couple of Viking (TD Systems) scsi controllers which is what I am thinking of
using. I have some S-Box SCSI controllers then may come in handy.
I like the idea of VMS 5.5 just to restore the system back to its former glory.
Doug
I think we?ve discussed your Viking boards before. I think they?ll work just fine, but in
all honestly, I?ve never tried. Viking boards are all in PDP-11?s. :-) The reason I
suggest 5.5-2 is that you can get a decent TCP/IP stack for it, AND, it?s requirements are
low enough to work well on a MicroVAX II. In fact it?s what I tend to prefer to run on
VAXen. Having said that, I?d like to get a v4.x system up and running at some point. My
MicroVAX III was running 4.something when I got it. I booted it up, played around,
powered it down, and the RD53 wouldn?t power back up. I?ve been kicking myself for about
18 years for not grabbing a backup when I first powered it on!
If you can get a copy of the Hobbyist V1 CD-ROM, it?s well worth the effort. It has v5
and I think v6, as well as a lot of freeware. IIRC though, it lacks layered products.
Zane
29 Jul
29 Jul
6:36 p.m.
On 2016-07-29 9:08 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box
chassis. I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers
that might come in handy.
Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?
Anyone have experience with this?
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS
available? How do you get an OS onto this system?
NetBSD is an option. The most recent version I've run on a MicroVAX II
(9MB) is 1.4.1, netbooted (couldn't find a netbootable distribution of
anything more recent; also a 9MB machine might not run much more recent).
You probably want to chase down a DELQA.
--Toby
6:38 p.m.
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box
chassis. I has a
TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of
Qbus SCSI controllers
that might come in handy.
Ooh, those are (my impression!) substantially rarer than DEQNAs. (I
know _I_'d cheerfully swap a DEQNA for Qbus SCSI.)
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD?
Yes. Recent (and some not-so-recent) versions are broken, in that they
can't self-host; as far as I know nobody knows exactly what's wrong.
My impression (as someone who hasn't tried it, but who has seen it
discussed on port-vax) is that something breaks somewhere in the
compiler when running native.
You may also find recent(ish) versions are too resource-hungry; the
MicroVAX-II can't have more than 16M RAM, which is pretty tiny by
modern NetBSD's standards (pretty much ever since they relegated most
ports to second-class, er, sorry, "organic" status).
Fortunately, older NetBSD is still available; I think it's even
available from netbsd.org. I don't have any VAXen up at the moment
(I'm more constrained than historically usual about how many computers
I have live or almost-live), or I'd offer to build you a tarball; I can
do that anyway, but I won't be in a position to test whether it
actually works, that it may be suboptimal.
Are versions of VMS available?
I imagine so, but I don't actually know, since I haven't gone looking
for any. (I have fond memories of my VMS days, but as long as it
remains closed-source, I'm not running it.)
How do you get an OS onto this system?
Same way you would any other system. In your case, I see four options:
tapes, floppies (I think the RX50 is a floppy drive?), netboot (if you
can find a network for the thing), and putting the disk on another
machine and plopping the install on it there. Personally, I'd be
installing NetBSD, and I'd probably dig out a spare DEQNA, netboot,
then install onto local disk from the netbooted system. In extremis, I
might download a grappling-hook program via memory binary deposit
commands, then ship stuff over the console serial line. This would
work, but would be slow; I think the fastest the console serial can run
is 19200, or maybe 38400.
/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
30 Jul
30 Jul
9:09 a.m.
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 2:38 AM, Mouse <mouse at rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
The Micro VAX II supports mop booting so you can boot NetBSD entirely
diskless with an NFS from a BSD or Linux NFS server just fine. This is
supported right up to current versions of NetBSD though I recommend
NetBSD 6.1.5. Later versions have bugs GCC which cause massive
headaches. Even the GCC in 6.1.5 is a bit buggy. I had to recompile
awk with -O0 or else various
I followed:
http://www.netbsd.org/docs/network/netboot/
I forget where I diverged from it so if you run into any issues just
ask and I'll check what I did.
The hardest part was getting mopd on Linux to serve up the NetBSD boot
loader properly. The mopd for Linux didn't support ELF images and the
NetBSD boot loader isn't in mopd format in more recent versions of
NetBSD like it was in older versions. Now it's just ELF. But it's
finally working. If you use NetBSD to serve mopd this isn't an issue.
If you want to use Linux I can send you an mopd format copy of the
boot loader.
There are lots of advantages of booting diskless but my main
motivation was that older hard drives can be quite noisy. The
Vaxstation without a drive is fairly quiet, the only noise is the
power supply fan. Also they're moving parts that often fail and can be
quite small.
Having 20G of space for my root filesystem is quite handy too and now
I can easily take lvm snapshots, backups, etc so if this Vaxstation
dies I could perhaps find another and netboot it from the same root. I
should be able to boot simh from the same root too though I haven't
tried that. I'm not sure simh supports mopd so I might need to create
a boot device that remounts NFS over it.
--
greg
What OS's
can I use with this hardware? NetBSD?
Yes. Recent (and some not-so-recent) versions are broken, in that they
can't self-host; as far as I know nobody knows exactly what's wrong.
My impression (as someone who hasn't tried it, but who has seen it
discussed on port-vax) is that something breaks somewhere in the
compiler when running native.
You may also find recent(ish) versions are too resource-hungry; the
MicroVAX-II can't have more than 16M RAM, which is pretty tiny by
modern NetBSD's standards (pretty much ever since they relegated most
ports to second-class, er, sorry, "organic" status).
9:18 a.m.
New subject: Netbooting NetBSD/vax - was Re: MicroVax II
On 2016-07-30 12:09 PM, Greg Stark wrote:
On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 2:38 AM, Mouse <mouse at
rodents-montreal.org> wrote:
The Micro VAX II supports mop booting so you can boot NetBSD entirely
diskless with an NFS from a BSD or Linux NFS server just fine. This is
supported right up to current versions of NetBSD though I recommend
NetBSD 6.1.5. Later versions have bugs GCC which cause massive
headaches. Even the GCC in 6.1.5 is a bit buggy. I had to recompile
awk with -O0 or else various
I followed:
http://www.netbsd.org/docs/network/netboot/
I forget where I diverged from it so if you run into any issues just
ask and I'll check what I did.
FWIW I also put this HOWTO together for NetBSD 1.4.1.
https://github.com/qu1j0t3/mopd/blob/master/HOWTO-MicroVAX-II.md
--Toby
What
OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD?
Yes. Recent (and some not-so-recent) versions are broken, in that they
can't self-host; as far as I know nobody knows exactly what's wrong.
My impression (as someone who hasn't tried it, but who has seen it
discussed on port-vax) is that something breaks somewhere in the
compiler when running native.
You may also find recent(ish) versions are too resource-hungry; the
MicroVAX-II can't have more than 16M RAM, which is pretty tiny by
modern NetBSD's standards (pretty much ever since they relegated most
ports to second-class, er, sorry, "organic" status).
The hardest part was getting mopd on Linux to serve up the NetBSD boot
loader properly. The mopd for Linux didn't support ELF images and the
NetBSD boot loader isn't in mopd format in more recent versions of
NetBSD like it was in older versions. Now it's just ELF. But it's
finally working. If you use NetBSD to serve mopd this isn't an issue.
If you want to use Linux I can send you an mopd format copy of the
boot loader.
...
9:59 a.m.
On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, Greg Stark wrote:
The hardest part was getting mopd on Linux to serve up
the NetBSD boot
loader properly. The mopd for Linux didn't support ELF images and the
NetBSD boot loader isn't in mopd format in more recent versions of
NetBSD like it was in older versions. Now it's just ELF. But it's
finally working. If you use NetBSD to serve mopd this isn't an issue.
If you want to use Linux I can send you an mopd format copy of the
boot loader.
FWIW, I had to deal with a buggy DECstation REX firmware revision which
crashes on an attempt to use TFTP for booting (plus FDDI network hardware
such as DEFZA, etc. only supports MOP booting by design), so I have added
ELF support to Linux `mopd' some 15 years ago, to be able to netboot Linux
kernels with no hassle. I guess it's the matter of finding the right
patches then, and I'm sorry to hear you had issues despite that you
shouldn't have.
As I have figured out earlier this year only said ELF support patch as
well as some other improvements were imported by Debian soon after I made
them, and then the package maintainer broke them later on with another
patch applied on top. Obviously nobody noticed or cared to report the
breakage and I wasn't aware myself as I have only ever used my own RPM
packages which I have created in the first place and then built from
sources on a RedHat system.
Maciej
29 Jul
29 Jul
7:55 p.m.
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box
chassis. I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that
might come in handy.
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS
available? How do you get an OS onto this system?
What Qbus SCSI controllers do you have? The CMD CQD-200 CQD-220, Dilog
SQ706A, Emulex UC07 I have tried were all able to boot from an
appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive. That how I usually go about installing
OpenVMS 7.3 on a Qbus VAX. I never got around to picking up a SCSI-SD
adapter yet. I just use old fashioned rotating drives, although they
are 68-pin drives with 50-pin adapters.
I have a BA123 that I maxed out as a something close to a VAXstation
III/GPX. Replaced the M7606 KA630 with a M7625 KA655. There are only 4
Q22/CD slots so normally you can only have 48MB using 3 M7622 MS650
16MB boards plus the CPU. I found a couple of third-party 32MB boards
to max out at 64MB. Added a (2x) M7168 + M7169 VCB02 set for the GPX
graphics.
The BA123 is an interesting item for DEC collectors and I'm glad I was
able to pick one up, although it's been a while now since I last
powered it up.
30 Jul
30 Jul
8:52 a.m.
On 7/29/2016 10:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I agree, I remember using a MicroVax II in the BA123 box back in the mid
1980's and wanted to have one and now I do.
The only thing I forgot was just how heavy the damn thing is!
I just looked and here is what I have:
VMS V5.5-2 BIN Oct 92 Disk 1 of 1 CDROM
Viking SCSI controller - I think this is disk only and used it in the
past. Viking A/B A4.0 on rom.
Alphatronix SCSI controller - this is rebadged Viking not sure how it is
set up, disk/tape or disk.
Emulex UC07 - this is has S-box handles and have used it in a VAX 4000.
DEC KZQSA - this is also S-box also
CMD - CQD 223A/TM in S-box configuration
DEC - RRD42 external SCSI CDROM drive
I've only used the Viking boards to control a single drive in the past (
I think, its been a long time ).
I am reluctant to remove the S-box handles as they seem to be riveted to
the board.
The CD is DEC and I'm not sure of how much is on it, is it just an OS?
Can it be used with the MVII?
It looks like I could use one of the Viking controllers to talk to the
RRD42 and a SCSI to SD card drive and get up and running. How many
things could go wrong?
Doug
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box
chassis. I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that
might come in handy.
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS
available? How do you get an OS onto this system?
What Qbus SCSI controllers do
you have? The CMD CQD-200 CQD-220, Dilog
SQ706A, Emulex UC07 I have tried were all able to boot from an
appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive. That how I usually go about installing
OpenVMS 7.3 on a Qbus VAX. I never got around to picking up a SCSI-SD
adapter yet. I just use old fashioned rotating drives, although they
are 68-pin drives with 50-pin adapters.
I have a BA123 that I maxed out as a something close to a VAXstation
III/GPX. Replaced the M7606 KA630 with a M7625 KA655. There are only 4
Q22/CD slots so normally you can only have 48MB using 3 M7622 MS650
16MB boards plus the CPU. I found a couple of third-party 32MB boards
to max out at 64MB. Added a (2x) M7168 + M7169 VCB02 set for the GPX
graphics.
The BA123 is an interesting item for DEC collectors and I'm glad I was
able to pick one up, although it's been a while now since I last
powered it up.
8:59 a.m.
On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:52 AM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I agree, I remember using a MicroVax II in the BA123 box back in the mid 1980's and
wanted to have one and now I do.
The only thing I forgot was just how heavy the damn thing is!
I just looked and here is what I have:
VMS V5.5-2 BIN Oct 92 Disk 1 of 1 CDROM
Viking SCSI controller - I think this is disk only and used it in the past. Viking A/B
A4.0 on rom.
Alphatronix SCSI controller - this is rebadged Viking not sure how it is set up,
disk/tape or disk.
Emulex UC07 - this is has S-box handles and have used it in a VAX 4000.
DEC KZQSA - this is also S-box also
CMD - CQD 223A/TM in S-box configuration
DEC - RRD42 external SCSI CDROM drive
I've only used the Viking boards to control a single drive in the past ( I think, its
been a long time ).
I am reluctant to remove the S-box handles as they seem to be riveted to the board.
The CD is DEC and I'm not sure of how much is on it, is it just an OS? Can it be
used with the MVII?
It looks like I could use one of the Viking controllers to talk to the RRD42 and a SCSI
to SD card drive and get up and running. How many things could go wrong?
Doug
IIRC, the Alphatronix SCSI adapter may only talk to their CD-Jukeboxes.
You?re in great shape with that CD, that?s an awesome score!
I have two HD?s, a Plextor CD-ROM, and a 4mm DAT tape drive on a single Viking QDT in my
PDP-11.
The RRD42 should work just fine.
Zane
2 Aug
2 Aug
7:49 p.m.
On 7/29/2016 10:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote:
On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked, they
are DEC RRD42, Toshiba and a Sony.
The DEC was dead, removed the drive and applied power that I know is
good (from a PC power supply in a working PC)
and nothing, no led, nothing. The toshibas would spit the caddy back
out after a few moments and the Sony
refused to eject the caddy.
Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for?
I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use? The
adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male?
Doug
I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box
chassis. I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that
might come in handy.
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS
available? How do you get an OS onto this system?
What Qbus SCSI controllers do
you have? The CMD CQD-200 CQD-220, Dilog
SQ706A, Emulex UC07 I have tried were all able to boot from an
appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive. That how I usually go about installing
OpenVMS 7.3 on a Qbus VAX. I never got around to picking up a SCSI-SD
adapter yet. I just use old fashioned rotating drives, although they
are 68-pin drives with 50-pin adapters.
I have a BA123 that I maxed out as a something close to a VAXstation
III/GPX. Replaced the M7606 KA630 with a M7625 KA655. There are only 4
Q22/CD slots so normally you can only have 48MB using 3 M7622 MS650
16MB boards plus the CPU. I found a couple of third-party 32MB boards
to max out at 64MB. Added a (2x) M7168 + M7169 VCB02 set for the GPX
graphics.
The BA123 is an interesting item for DEC collectors and I'm glad I was
able to pick one up, although it's been a while now since I last
powered it up.
8:14 p.m.
On Aug 2, 2016 7:50 PM, "Douglas Taylor" <dj.taylor4 at comcast.net>
wrote:
I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked, they are
DEC
RRD42, Toshiba and a Sony.
The DEC was dead, removed the drive and applied power
that I know is good
(from a PC power supply in a working PC)
and nothing, no led, nothing. The toshibas would spit
the caddy back out
after a few moments and the Sony
refused to eject the caddy.
Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for?
I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use? The
adapter, I
guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male?
Doug
I have had good luck with Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drives. I picked up some old
Plextor 4x, 6x, 8x caddy drives for a couple bucks each a RE-PC Seattle a
while ago. They have a 512-byte block mode jumper you need to set.
I got a box of 25+ IBM DDRS-39130 9GB 68-pin SCSI hard drives cheap from
someone on Craigslist a while back and have been using those with 50-pin
male / 68-pin male adapters. Only issue is that the Emulex UC07 firmware is
incompatible with them. The drives have a mode page that the UC07 doesn't
understand and it tries to do a mode select with some invalid bits for that
page, which fails. Then it keeps retrying that failure forever. No problem
with the CMD and Dilog controllers.
I often use the SG3utils sg_format utility to soft resize the 9GB drives
down to something smaller. 9GB might make sense on a VAX, not so much on a
PDP-11. Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over
1GB.
3 Aug
3 Aug
2:22 a.m.
Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over 1GB.
That's not quite correct.
The firmware on VAXstation 3100 and early MicroVAX 3100 machines has issues
addressing directly attached SCSI disks larger than 1.073GB for booting and
doing system dumps only. The issues can be worked around but this is not
recommended as it is possible to end up unexpectedly writing a system dump
over something else on the disk.
The issue does not arise with larger drives attached to later model MicroVAX
3100 machines (or early model MicroVAX 3100 machines with updated firmware
ROMs).
There are no issues with larger disks attached to any VAX 3100 machines if they
are not used for booting or dumping, ie they are used for storing data only.
See the OpenVMS FAQ for further details if required.
Regards,
Peter Coghlan.
2 Aug
2 Aug
8:27 p.m.
On 08/02/2016 19:49, Douglas Taylor wrote:
I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked [...]
Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for?
That's unfortunate. The DEC badged drives would be ideal, but you should
be good with Sun-, HP- or SGI-badged drives, or Plextor and Toshiba
drives with a SCSI interface. For the non-workstation vendors, search up
the model spec sheets to see if you need to change a jumper or, in
unusual cases, cut a trace on the PCB.
All this info can be found on (third-party) CD-ROM FAQs for the
workstation vendors...
I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what
type do you use? The
adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male?
The 68/80 to 50 pin adapters are straightforward and all over eBay. Be
advised that some drives spec'd for Ultra 320 may need a jumper or
simply won't behave properly on an 8-bit SCSI bus, but its doesn't seem
to be that common.
If you're looking for spinning iron, I'd recommend drives using the 80
pin SCA connectors. Checking the labels is best, but as a rule of thumb
they tend to be more recent production. However all of them are getting
long in the tooth!
For physical drives, most recently I've been getting the 2.5" Seagate
Savvio drives with the SCA connectors. They tend to "only" be ~10 years
old, and the smaller form factor often makes it easier to squeeze them
and the coverter board into drive carriers designed for 3.5" devices.
Be aware that if you don't know your equipment uses High Voltage
Differential (HVD) SCSI, avoid it or things that just say
"Differential." It will fry older/slower and Low Voltage Differential
(LVD) SCSI gear.
Sorry if any/all of that was already known, but I'm avoiding actual work
this evening. ;)
--S.
29 Jul
29 Jul
8:01 p.m.
On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor
<dj.taylor4 at comcast.net> wrote:
What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS available? How
do you get an OS onto this system?
By the way, from an educational standpoint, this is a very good system to run VMS on, if
you?re looking to learn about performance tuning. Any changes you make will be very
apparent. :-)
Zane
2830
days inactive
2834
days old
27 comments
14 participants
participants (14)
-
cctalk＠beyondthepale.ie -
classiccmp＠crash.com -
dj.taylor4＠comcast.net -
dj.taylor4＠verizon.net -
doug-cctalk＠dpf.cc -
glen.slick＠gmail.com -
healyzh＠aracnet.com -
jsw＠ieee.org -
macro＠linux-mips.org -
mouse＠Rodents-Montreal.ORG -
paulkoning＠comcast.net -
robert.jarratt＠ntlworld.com -
stark＠mit.edu -
toby＠telegraphics.com.au