16 Mar
2018
16 Mar
'18
5:28 p.m.
So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
Why?
The maintenance manual says that LEDs are more reliable. The operation
is as far as I know the same. The LED version doesn't need the +8VDC
supply, but that seems an advantage for it. I remember reading that
the EAE had some revision dependencies with the console, so were there
bus timing problems with the LED console that limited it to short
buses?
Maybe this changed over time, but it overlapped long enough for them
to have both described in the maintenance manual and specific to the
application.
Another console question...
Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
-chuck
16 Mar
16 Mar
6:59 p.m.
On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console
which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
Wrong.? The 8f uses the same as
the 8e.? It was the 8m that had the
LED console.? If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it.
I can be certain as I have an 8f built in 1973.? I've since moded it to
take bright yellow LEDs as lamps are not easy to find and annoying
to replace.? If I care to I can put the lamps back.? Since I put
operational
over absolute faithful its better as is, less digging in the box.
Why?
The maintenance manual says that LEDs are more reliable. The operation
is as far as I know the same. The LED version doesn't need the +8VDC
supply, but that seems an advantage for it. I remember reading that
the EAE had some revision dependencies with the console, so were there
bus timing problems with the LED console that limited it to short
buses?
Cost to redesign and the cost of LEDs, and their lack of brightness then
didn't justify it.? The 8m was aimed at the industrial user that would use
it differently, usually wrapped in a box to protect it from the shop floor
dust and grime and generally less maintenance.
Many sites have the M and the F swapped on the LEDs.? However the
LED equipped machines are rare and all the 8f machines I know of
have the 8v power for lamps.? The LED version can use 5V or 8V.
However its possible to swap the panels, I tried it once and it pass diags
and worked fine.? Didn't like the red.
The biggest difference is the lamp panels have resistors to keep
the filament warm but not glowing for improved life and those
are not there for LEDs (it would keep LEDs lit).??? The LED did
not need that resistor but needed a current limited resistor
for the LED.? Otherwise they were the same and there was
no timing impact.
Keep in mind they all (e,f,M) could use the the industrial minimal
panel that allowed for reset and run using boot roms.
Maybe this changed over time, but it overlapped long
enough for them
to have both described in the maintenance manual and specific to the
application.
The Incandescent console was higher volume and lingered for that
reason.
The volumes for the 8m were low as that market was also seeing inroads
from the PDP-11 and not much later the LSI-11.
There was overlap in production the 8e was very popular until the 8A
which was cheaper and more compact.
Another console question...
Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
No and can't! ? The 8i (nor the 8L) was not
omnibus.? The boards to make
up the console were not compatible with the 8e.??? Yes, you can display
the same stuff if you were to make your own, all the signals are on the
omnibus and it would take some buffering maybe some latches.? The
8e form used fewer lamps and fewer lamp driver parts so it was less
expensive to make and maintain.? Yes, one could kluge it, taking into
account you need a hand wired backplane for the M-series flipchips
that support the 8i panel and getting the signal polarity right.
Its forgotten that the 8 series runs from transistors, early DTL, TTL,
and later CMOS and had seen at least 5 iterations from the PDP-5
though the late-8 CMOS chip based series (decmate I/II/III).
The 8e represented the first of the family of pdp-8 that had a unified bus
both in signals, timing and physical structure.? It was the a major
repackage
of the PDP-8i to both a smaller, less expensive, easier to manufacture,
repair, and test.?? Whats missed was the 8e/f/M were the easiest of the
8 series to interface to anything and they did indeed get a lot of hand
made one off interfaces for specific missions.? As a result the 8e was
nearly the ubiquitous small computer.
Allison
-chuck
7:31 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 20:58 allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote:
I think he's aware (hence "style").
Kyle
On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk
wrote:
I have seen several 8/f systems that have LEDs, for what it's worth. I can
only imagine DEC was transitioning the 8/m and 8/f to take LEDs instead of
incandescents.
So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console
which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
Wrong. The 8f uses the same as
the 8e. It was the 8m that had the
LED console. If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it.
I can be certain as I have an 8f built in 1973. I've since moded it to
take bright yellow LEDs as lamps are not easy to find and annoying
to replace. If I care to I can put the lamps back. Since I put
operational
over absolute faithful its better as is, less digging in the box.
The bulbs are still available on Mouser. I've ordered a bunch for my 8/e
and have been very happy with them.
http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php
However its possible to swap the panels, I tried it once and it pass diags
and worked fine. Didn't like the red.
I've found that my LED 8/m is very hard to read, as the LEDs are very dim.
Another console question...
Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not
omnibus.
8:19 p.m.
On 03/16/2018 10:31 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote:
I know, I have a stock, but you have
to pull the panel apart to replace
them,
gets tiring.? Modern yellow LEDs are nice and bright, and don't burn out.
Less digging in the box is a good thing as over time fumble errors can
hurt it.
One _*oops*_ during assembly could be painful.
Back then they were terrible.? I have a supply of old ones and at 9mA they
were dim and at 11mA the died!? Modern red leds at 8mA are very much
brighter.
However the yellow look more like lamps.
Every so often I look at is and wonder if a mix of yellow and white
in groups of three might be cool looking. but then I have to take it apart
when not broken, the thing I am trying to avoid.? ;)
I think he's aware (hence "style"). I've seen a one off
6100 (CMOS 8) with a 8i like front panel. it was
made rather poorly
and not structurally strong so who knows if it exists still.? The basic
idea is easy
to do on any 8.? But nearly 60 lamps/LEDs later and all the switches its
going
to take time to build.?? It would be terrible if someone were to junk an
8I or L
just for the panel.
The front panel also is part of the 8 evolution to a more desirable
turnkey machine
which is what the users wanted.? One described it as "I want to use it
not sit there
and flip switches all day".?? Oddly it was Field service that wanted it
the panel as
it was a good debug tool and retained.??? Systems with mass storage as a
nominal
thing helped to kill the front panel.
Allison
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 20:58 allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org>
wrote:
Work for DEC, 10 years from 1983 and very rarely saw them and those
in the
region (the greater Maynard area) around DEC never seem to have LEDs
unless added later.?? There was a third part bulb replacement.? They were
dim then as well and not popular.? I got lucky and found one but, dim red
LEDs are unappealing so its put aside as a spare or maybe to build up
another machine.
On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via
cctalk wrote:
I have seen several 8/f systems that have LEDs, for what it's worth. I can
only imagine DEC was transitioning the 8/m and 8/f to take LEDs instead of
incandescents. So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console
which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
Wrong. The 8f uses the same as
the 8e. It was the 8m that had the
LED console. If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it.
I can be
certain as I have an 8f built in 1973. I've since moded it to
take bright yellow LEDs as lamps are not easy to find and annoying
to replace. If I care to I can put the lamps back. Since I put
operational
over absolute faithful its better as is, less digging in the box.
The bulbs are still available on Mouser. I've ordered a bunch for my 8/e
and have been very happy with them.
http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php However its
possible to swap the panels, I tried it once and it pass diags
and worked fine. Didn't like the red.
I've found that my LED 8/m is very hard to read, as the LEDs are very dim.
Another console question...
Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not
omnibus.
Kyle
17 Mar
17 Mar
5:05 a.m.
back in the day (70s) ?when selling these ?things ?2ed ?hand ? E ?was ind. ? M and F were
always ?LED... I ?preferred?the ?leds ?Ed#
?
?
In a message dated 3/16/2018 7:31:26 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at
classiccmp.org writes:
?
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018, 20:58 allison via cctalk <cctalk at classiccmp.org wrote:
I think he's aware (hence "style").
Kyle
On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk
wrote:
I have seen several 8/f systems that have LEDs, for what it's worth. I can
only imagine DEC was transitioning the 8/m and 8/f to take LEDs instead of
incandescents.
So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console
which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
Wrong. The 8f uses the same as
the 8e. It was the 8m that had the
LED console. If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it.
I can be certain as I have an 8f built in 1973. I've since moded it to
take bright yellow LEDs as lamps are not easy to find and annoying
to replace. If I care to I can put the lamps back. Since I put
operational
over absolute faithful its better as is, less digging in the box.
The bulbs are still available on Mouser. I've ordered a bunch for my 8/e
and have been very happy with them.
http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php
However its possible to swap the panels, I tried it once and it pass diags
and worked fine. Didn't like the red.
I've found that my LED 8/m is very hard to read, as the LEDs are very dim.
Another console question...
Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not
omnibus.
19 Mar
19 Mar
7:28 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 10:31 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I think he's aware (hence "style").
Yep.
The bulbs are still available on Mouser. I've
ordered a bunch for my 8/e
and have been very happy with them.
http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/bulbs.php
I assume you mean the CM7371 not quite but almost the same bulb? That
is what I have used as replacement also.
Another console question...
Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not
omnibus.
Kyle
>
7:02 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I know the 8/I panel won't work with an 8/e. My question was if there
was a special seen in the wild that had all the register values like
the 8/i did since the panel interface clearly supports it.
Has anyone
ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not
omnibus. The boards to make Allison
-chuck
20 Mar
20 Mar
8:27 a.m.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:02 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
I know the 8/I panel won't work with an 8/e. My question was if there
was a special seen in the wild that had all the register values like
the 8/i did since the panel interface clearly supports it.
This would certainly be possible. I discussed exactly this possibility a
few years
ago with a now departed friend. We did a cursory search at the time and
didn't
turn up anything. Of course there are lots of smart people out there who
do a lot
of clever things and never bother to tell the net. My bet would be that
nobody
has wanted this enough to make their own omnibus front panel when there are
still real panels and machines readily available.
I guess you can be the first! Best wishes.
--
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175
Has
anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e? Looking at
the way the PDP8/e console functions, it should be possible to time
multiplex all the register to the data bus so they are all visible at
once when the machine is halted.
No and can't! The 8i (nor the 8L) was not
omnibus. The boards to make
21 Mar
21 Mar
7:04 p.m.
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Doug Ingraham via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Not sure I want to go there...
If you have ever looked at the DEC part number listing on bitsaver's
you will be amazed at all the specials that were done. And that was
what I was really interested in. Did DEC ever make a fancy panel that
displayed all the registers? The original designer had it in mind
since he displays a selected register at runtime during TS1 and when
the processor is stopped since that is TS1.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:02 PM, Charles Dickman via
cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via cctalk
> <cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> >> Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console for the PDP8/e?
I know the 8/I
panel won't work with an 8/e. My question was if there
was a special seen in the wild that had all the register values like
the 8/i did since the panel interface clearly supports it.
This would certainly be possible. I discussed exactly this possibility a
few years
ago with a now departed friend. We did a cursory search at the time and
didn't
turn up anything. Of course there are lots of smart people out there who
do a lot
of clever things and never bother to tell the net. My bet would be that
nobody
has wanted this enough to make their own omnibus front panel when there are
still real panels and machines readily available.
I guess you can be the first! Best wishes. --
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175
Charles Dickman
PDP-8/e SN 2630
7:42 p.m.
On 03/21/2018 10:04 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
Can a panel that displays everything like a 8I be built, yes.? Keep in
mind there
will be at least? 55-58 lamps/leds and drivers.?? The circuit is simple
though
repetitive to the max.? More of a mechanical pain than electronic.? It
would
likely not fit the existing panel space.
Allison Parent
PDP-8F SN 01030
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Doug Ingraham via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
There were versions for Telco, Power, and other industries never minding
the typeset 8s.
A few were done by CSSS (customer services special systems) for military
and other
more unique specialized systems.
On Mon, Mar 19, 2018 at 8:02 PM, Charles Dickman
via cctalk <
cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
Not sure I want to go there...
If you have ever looked at the DEC part number listing on bitsaver's
you will be amazed at all the specials that were done. And that was
what I was really interested in. Did DEC ever make a fancy panel that
displayed all the registers? The original designer had it in mind
since he displays a selected register at runtime during TS1 and when
the processor is stopped since that is TS1.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via
cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
This would certainly be possible. I discussed exactly this possibility a
few years
ago with a now departed friend. We did a cursory search at the time and
didn't
turn up anything. Of course there are lots of smart people out there who
do a lot
of clever things and never bother to tell the net. My bet would be that
nobody
has wanted this enough to make their own omnibus front panel when there are
still real panels and machines readily available.
I guess you can be the first! Best wishes. > Has anyone ever seen a PDP8/i style console
for the PDP8/e?
I know the 8/I panel won't work with an 8/e. My question was if
there
was a special seen in the wild that had all the register values like
the 8/i did since the panel interface clearly supports it.
--
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175
Charles Dickman
PDP-8/e SN 2630
22 Mar
22 Mar
9:30 a.m.
On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 8:04 PM, Charles Dickman <chd at chdickman.com> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Doug Ingraham via
cctalk
I hear you there. I built a front panel for a box I have been calling the
FPG-8. Modeled after the Straight 8 front panel. I probably have 100
hours into it at the point I stalled out. Next step is silk screening the
glass face plate. Electrically the panel works. Can do a walking 1's
of the LED's Can sense all the switches. Now that I have a 3D
printer I am thinking about a redo of the switches. They are just
toggle switches right now. If I tilt them down so when on the handle
sticks straight out (~20 degrees) and add a plastic handle cover
resembling the DEC ones it will look really close.
So expect a few hundred man hours in making a PCB front panel for
omnibus with all the bells and whistles. Sometimes the things that seem
easiest turn out to be difficult.
I guess you can be the first! Best wishes.
Not sure I want to go there...
If you have ever looked at the DEC part number listing
on bitsaver's
you will be amazed at all the specials that were done. And that was
what I was really interested in. Did DEC ever make a fancy panel that
displayed all the registers? The original designer had it in mind
since he displays a selected register at runtime during TS1 and when
the processor is stopped since that is TS1.
As far as I know there are only 3 front panel variants made for omnibus.
1) lamp 8/e panel. (found on e f m lab-8 and DECSet 8000)
2) LED 8/e panel. (almost the same as 1) (Found on e, f, m, probably
Lab-8 and possibly on DECSet 8000.)
3) 7 segment LED panel with keypad on 8/a. (Still only shows one at
a time.)
Minor variants of these but none that display all registers/states at the
same time. Yes you could do this but the panel size would probably
have to increase. I am sure part of the reason they did it the way they
did was to cut costs. More lamps would have added considerably to
the cost. And very little additional gain to functionally. Most of the
"specials" were probably just different screens on front panels with the
underlying hardware unchanged. That is certainly true of the Lab-8 and
DECSet 8k.
Best wishes!
--
Doug Ingraham
PDP-8 SN 1175
19 Mar
19 Mar
7:18 p.m.
On Fri, Mar 16, 2018 at 9:59 PM, allison via cctalk
<cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote:
On 03/16/2018 08:28 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk
wrote:
My information was based on the maintenance manual. I dug a little
deeper and see that the KC8-M is the operator panel that had only one
switch and the KC8-ML is a programmers panel and has the same PCB as
the KC8-FL that I referenced.
Clearly the panels were not rigidly associated with a machine model.
So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console
which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
Wrong. The 8f uses the same as
the 8e. It was the 8m that had the
LED console. If memory serves it was date of design that influenced it. Allison
-chuck
-chuck
17 Mar
17 Mar
5:32 p.m.
On 17/03/2018 00:28, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
So the PDP8/e used the KC8-EA programmers console
which has
incandescent indicator lamps and the PDP8/f used the KC8-FL
programmers console which has LED indicator lamps.
I have two 8/e machines, one of which has the original panel with
incandescent lamps and one which is a slightly later panel (but the same
type, just a later revision) which has been converted - I believe by DEC
- to use LEDs. I've experimented with different LEDs, and found that
some yellow ones look quite convincing, but as I remember using PDP-8s
with red LEDs back in the day, I've kept the original red ones.
--
Pete
Pete Turnbull
2467
days inactive
2472
days old
13 comments
7 participants
participants (7)
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allisonportable＠gmail.com -
chd＠chdickman.com -
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dpi＠dustyoldcomputers.com -
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pete＠dunnington.plus.com